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Deryl |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 09:27
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 21 Member No.: 46 Joined: 21-January 04 ![]() |
In our last gaming session we had an argument going
on "Folded Light". The question was, if a person under the "Folded Light"
Weave carries a light source (e.g. a lantern), can its light be
seen? In my opinion, YES. I think the "Folded Light" should pretty much work the same way as the D&D "Invisibility" Spell, which definitely lets light shine from an invisible object. The second question is, how do you handle the invisibility effect of the Weave? The weave description suggests, that the weave is a screen, rather than a complete invisibility-envelope. We play it the way, that you need two weaves (front and back side) to make a person completly invisible. With one weave you still could be seen from the other side. What is your take on this? And do you had other problems with this weave? -------------------- Deryl, Blademaster: "Die with a little dignity" |
Talan |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 01:25
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 30 Member No.: 40 Joined: 20-January 04 ![]() |
I don't think Folded Light works like D&D's
Invisibility at all. Invisibility is simply a magical effect - no
explanation needed. Folded Light has a somewhat scientific explanation
(i.e. bends the light waves) and is not foolproof, since the more you move
the more visible you become. Folded Light in the Rulebook seems to be a non-moving screen (like a Wall i guess), but in the books Rand uses a Folded Light that surrounds him and moves with him. Perhaps your Channeler could create a new version or you could simply allow him/her to use Rands version (propably +2 Caster Levels to the normal Folded Light or something). Talan |
Deryl |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 02:24
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 21 Member No.: 46 Joined: 21-January 04 ![]() |
We always played it as a weave which moves around. Otherwise it would make no sense to have an extra rule for fast movement. -------------------- Deryl, Blademaster: "Die with a little dignity" | ||
Entropic_existence |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 02:48
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 137 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Yea, the weave description doesn't say it is
immobile, but as you move the screen shimmers making you more visibile and
not working as well. The weave bends light weaves around the screen so
that viewers "see" through the person behind it or whatever. I let my
players wrap it around themselves though since we've seen it done in the
books. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Deryl |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 02:58
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 21 Member No.: 46 Joined: 21-January 04 ![]() |
So you use only one weave to become invisible from
all sides, more like an invisibility skin? What about the light source, carried by the invisible person? Will it shine? -------------------- Deryl, Blademaster: "Die with a little dignity" |
Entropic_existence |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 03:05
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 137 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
As for the Light source I think it's light waves
would necessarily be beant as well do to the weave. I'm not sure from a
physics perspective exactly what my call on this would be. Light waves
from outside the weave are bent around the weave to the other side (which
is why I do it as more of a circle effect since the light waves need to
have a rear edge to wrap around and display objects on the other side as.)
My instinct is that the light would be kept inside the weave so it
wouldn't be seen from the outside, but neither would it allow the person
with the light source to illuminate anything outside of their invisibility
weave. I would also have it make them even more likely to be spotted if
they were moving. So this allows them to use a light but restricts it as much as it restricts their opponents. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Deryl |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 03:27
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 21 Member No.: 46 Joined: 21-January 04 ![]() |
My take on the light thing is, that it shines
normally. For an onlooker, it would appear as if the light just emanates
from thin air. That is the way it is handled in D&D and I remember
lengthy discussion about this in D&D magazines and forums. I think the
general consensus was, that it is easier to handle, if the light shines.
Otherwise it will come to inconsistencies. Remember that "Folded Light" is a weave from an illusion talent. I do not think, that illusions actually alter the physics of the world, but rather affect the mind of the onlooker. I think you could potentially run into more problems, if you rule, that the light does NOT shine out of the invisibility. For example, what would happen if a channeler under "Folded Light" casts "Balefire", would its beam also be invisible? I don't think so. But if you rule, that you do not see normal light, how do you handle light effects from other weaves? I think the inconsistency gets only worse if you continue down that path. The "Folded Light" weave description also says, that it does not effect smell, sound or sensory cues. I would think, that supports my point. But do you remember any references from the book, which might help to clarify this question? This post has been edited by Deryl on Jun 23 2004, 03:28 PM -------------------- Deryl, Blademaster: "Die with a little dignity" |
Zinuk |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 05:50
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17 Member No.: 166 Joined: 21-June 04 ![]() |
I don't think the Folded light weave has anything to
do with mental weaves: it really blends the light (so doesn't affect
smell). So if you cast a balefire from within the screen, only those in
the screen could see it at first, but as soon as it goes out, everybody
could see it. I don't see any inconsistencies here. As for references in the books, there are not many about Folded light, and none that I can remember deals with this problem. |
Entropic_existence |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 07:08
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 137 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I could probably go and grab some if I had my books
with me. But Jordan has specifically said that Folded light does just
that, bends light waves in order to create invisibility. You have to
remember that while it is fantasy Jordan's degree is in Physics, and he
has worked his magic system to that it obeys rules of physics. Yes the
near impossible can be achieved but the way it is written is so that it
makes sense. As for the Balefire while the beam was within the weave yes
it would be invisible, once it passes through the screen it is
visible. What are the laws of physics that govern how we see objects? Light waves from a light source hit an object, with certain wavelenghts being absorbed and others being reflected. The ones that are reflected bounce back and hit our eyes, etc. So Folded Light bends light waves around the area of effect so that they don't hit the object in the first place, this is why you cans ee through it because it happens from the rear 180 degree's as well. Folded Light does not work like DnD Invisibility, indeed the One Power essentially works nothing like traditional fantasy magic. Perhaps the light would be visible if it was on the inside, I think it is a matter of taste. Personally I'd have the light be contained within the weave, plus since the light would not be losing it's intensity as quickly by dissipating through the air but rather bouncing back and forth within the enclosed space, it would get brighter and brighter within the circumscribed area. Make it pretty much useless for the Heroes to have illumination within the area. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Sharn Penndroen |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 07:40
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![]() Lemming Extraordinare ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 269 Member No.: 15 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
The only problem in my mind with Jordan's Folded
Light is that people can see what is going on around them when they are
surrounded by Folded Light. Since all light is being bent around them they
should be in complete darkness. There was a book series called the Magic of Recluse by L.E. Modesitt, Jr. In that series there was a book called The Magic Engineer. An black mage would make himself invisible by bending the light around himself. But when he was invisible he couldn't see anything. He had to use his order senses to find his way around. The white mages on the other hand removed their image from a persons mind to become invisible. The could see fine. Totally beside the point of WoT. As far as the light source goes, I would think that the channeler could control that. He could make it like a one way or two envelope. Do I let the light leave from here or do I bend it as well? Since weaves are a lot more flexible than spells, I would think that a channeler would be able to control that. -------------------- I like swords. |
Aleshandre |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 09:17
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 150 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I see it as being similar to a 2 way mirror. It would
be semi-reflective and the amount of light that is on one side would
affect how much of what is visible to the other side. Total darkness from
inside a dome of folded light would make objects outside appear clearly,
while light inside the dome, would reflect to the interior letting people
from outside see into it. Scientifically sound and answers all questions
about it. -------------------- |
Sharn Penndroen |
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 11:16
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![]() Lemming Extraordinare ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 269 Member No.: 15 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Except it isn't really a mirror. It doesn't reflect
the light it bends it so that it passes around the target. You see things
because the light that is reflect off of them reaches your retina and
produces a series of electro-chemical impulses that are interpreted by the
brain to be certain colors and shapes. If you bend all of the light around
the target then there is no light to reach the retina and you should not
be able to see. RJ's degree may be in physics, but mine is in Molecular Biology. As explained, I don't think Folded Light should allow the target to see anything, but hey, the books don't describe it that way. To me this is a case that RJ makes it more "magic" that "physics." I'm sure that he understands the principle, but choose to ignore it in favor of a slightly more "magical" effect. -------------------- I like swords. |
Entropic_existence |
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 01:59
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 137 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
True Sharn, I hadn't actually even though about that
when I was doing my post. Incidentally I'm going into my final year of a
B.Sc. in Biology and Chemistry double honours. With my main focus being on
Molecular Biology. ![]() -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Deryl |
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 09:13
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 21 Member No.: 46 Joined: 21-January 04 ![]() |
So great, we got a lot of smart guys thinking on this
little problem. Since my degree lies in Computer Science, I feel
responsible to bring logic into this discussion ![]() Lets see what we have: 1. Robert Jordan describes Folded Light as bending the light around the object rendering it invisible. This describes clearly a change to the laws of physics through a magical effect. I think this pretty much rules out any mind effecting type of invisibility. Therefore the categorization of Folded Light as an Illusion in the rule book is wrong and misleading. 2. This means, that the D&D invisibility is totally different. I have to change my original opinion here. In D&D invisibility is an illusion. It is also cancelled ones you do something to give it away, such as attacking. This is not the case with Folded Light. 3. I think we pretty much agree on the way light effects outside the Folded Light are handled. Since the light is bend around it, there is no way to tell that there is an object covered with Folded Light. It does not block the light, it does not cast shadows. The only way you can tell, that there is somebody, is rapid movement, which makes the air blurry. I would assume that this effect is caused by a little delay until the physical conditions have altered again until it is in sync with the weave. 4. For the person under the Folded Light weave everything seems to work normal. As far as the description in the books go, they can see normally and interact with the surroundings without any restrictions. That would mean for the invisible person and anything he is carrying (such as a lantern) all physics work normally. The light should shine out. Any theories about a one way mirror effect of the Folded Light are pure speculation and not backed by the books. Conclusion: From a logical and practical point of view any light emitted from a person under Folded Light will work normally and appear as soon as it leaves the area of effect. For the WoT RPG this means that the categorization as an Illusion weave is wrong. It would probably be Elementalism. This post has been edited by Deryl on Jun 24 2004, 11:24 AM -------------------- Deryl, Blademaster: "Die with a little dignity" |
Zinuk |
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 09:43
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17 Member No.: 166 Joined: 21-June 04 ![]() |
It depends on what you mean by Illusion: folded light is clearly an illusion, but it differs from the D&D illusion by how it works. You can have two type of illusions: mental ones (you affect the mind of the people you see you) or physical ones (you modify the senses themselves, like modifying the light or the sounds emitted). See Sharn's post on Modesitt's books for an example. Although they do say in the rulebook that Illusions weaves "affect the minds and senses of those that witness them", I think that the weaves they put under the Illusion like disguise, folded light, miror of mists and voice of power are not mind weaves, but physical ones. I may be wrong, but it seem to me that they just made a copy and paste from the D&D intro to Illlusion spells, without looking closely enough to the differences between D&D magic and WoT magic. And for the problem of light going out, I don't think it goes out, because as the things inside the screen do receive light, they must emit some (by reflection), and so, if the light went through the screen from the inside, everything would be visible from the outside. Maybe the One Power just absorbs the light that would go out. I just don't know. This post has been edited by Zinuk on Jun 24 2004, 09:45 AM | ||
Deryl |
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 11:20
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 21 Member No.: 46 Joined: 21-January 04 ![]() |
This is an interesting link to the subject in the
wikipedia: Invisibility on Wikipedia There are different types of invisibilities described here. My first instinct would be, that the "Predator"-movie invisibility comes closest to the one produced by "Folded Light". -------------------- Deryl, Blademaster: "Die with a little dignity" |
Aleshandre |
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 03:25
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 150 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
In a manner of speaking, WoT illusions affect the
mind and senses; by changing the way that people and objects interact with
energy, you are indirectly affecting the minds and senses of those
who experience the effects. Now to clarify what I meant about the 2-way mirror effect. The weave could work as follows: light from outside the screen can pass through like with a 2-way mirror, letting little in and leaving the interrior darkened, but letting enough light through to allow the person to see clearly. The remainder of the light is bent around the screen as described. Because of the effects of some of the light passing through and transferring the images from one side to the other, objects inside are actually partly visible, but little enough shows that people ignnore it, unless there is movement, which draws the eye, causing the ripple effect in the screen, as it shifts to better cover the objec/creature inside. IMHO, this weave should be a dome effect, not a screen, since a screen is effectively 2D and can't transfer what is behind an object, without being positioned on all sides of it. -------------------- |
Entropic_existence |
Posted: Jun 25 2004, 02:02
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 137 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I agree Aleshandre, in fact I've always treated it as
a dome effect just because it made more inutitive sense. However in the
books we have also seen it used as a simple screen when Rand hides Min (I
think) in one of his throne rooms. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Talan |
Posted: Jun 25 2004, 02:55
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 30 Member No.: 40 Joined: 20-January 04 ![]() |
These are the references to folded light and
invisibility I have been able to find: Eye of the World p. 728-29 Moiraine creates a Ward that makes everyone on a hilltop invisible. She explains that it is a simple thing, a "bending, so any eye looking at us sees around us, instead. We cannot have the eyes that will be out there seeing our lights tonight, and the Blight is no place to be in the dark". (This doesn't sound like the Barrier to Sight weave in the rulebook, there is no "wavering image" and nothing about people being barely visible - they are totally gone from sight). The Dragon Reborn p. 96 Rand disappears from the camp in the Mountains of Mist. Moiraine says: "At least he has not rediscovered how to fly, or to make himself invisible, or something else out of legend". Fires of Heaven p. 20-21 A Brown Sister comments on Elayne's and Nynaeve's "discoveries": "That way of wrapping yourself in light to become invisible. Remarkable. I'm sure someone will find how to stop the ripples, so you can move about with it". Later Elayne thinks: The plain green disc that allowed someone not strong enough to work the invisibility trick - not many were - had been her idea from the first. Lord of Chaos p. 544-45 Rand hides Egwene from the Tower Aes Sedai embasy. She doesn't notice anything herself. Rand says he fastens it to the floor, and it ripples if she moves. Egwene compares it to Moiraine's screen of Saidar, which hid them all. Path of Daggers p. 644+ Rand is attacked by renegade Ashaman. He sneaks around in the Sun Palace and everytime he encounters anyone he weaves Air and Fire to conceal himself, but stands still untill they have passed. You can make your own conclusions, but I think that Wizards's weave Folded Light is a misinterpretation. It should not be a Screen, but a Field or Dome. If Moiraine's "bending" works the same way as Folded Light you would not be able to see a light source concealed with Folded Light. In Amber Invisibility works by letting light pass through your body, thus if you are 75% Invisible you will only be able to see 25%. I don't think Folded Light works that way. It is more a "filter" that lets light through normally, but filtrates anything inside the weave away. Talan |
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