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> Horse Mechanics, more of a general d20 question
strycher
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 06:42 AM
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OK. Some questions about combat when riding on horseback.

[A] When riding a Warhorse, you can attack without any sort of Ride check. But, in order to fight while the Warhorse simulatenously attacks, requires a Ride Check (DC10).
What is the Movement and attack actions for the PC and the Horse?

Can the Mount : 1) Double Move 2) Move + Attack or 3) Full Attack
allowing the rider to do a Full Attack (even though the rider is "brought along for the ride" and is actually moving)? Normally for a PC to get Full attack, the most movement allowed is a 5 ft step. But, does riding a horse allow more movement while retaining the Full Attack option?

For example, a warhorses movement is 60 ft.
Could a mounted rider move 60 ft, have the War horse attack once (single hoof), and then the Rider gets Full Attack?
The next round, does the warhorse get a full attack (2 hooves + bite), and the rider can still make a Full Attack?
or - could a rider ride his horse 120 ft (a double move for the horse), then get whatever attacks he (the rider) has available (up to a Full Attack) - in the same round?

--OR--
is a mounted rider, just "one entity" with better movement. What I mean is, does the PC have improved movement (up to 60ft for a single move), and then is allowed a single action in the same round.
1st round: Rider and horse move 60 ft, then rider gets single attack.
2nd round: Rider can use full attack, with successful check, the horse can also attack.


[B] Situation: In inexperienced rider has captured a torm! He has managed to gain the creatures trust enough to mount it. And decides to ride it in a combat. He knows that he wouldn't be able to fight himself very well, but decides to let the creature do the battling for him.

What sort of checks would you do as the rider tries to use this beast/weapon to kill enemies? Should there be a "Control Mount in Battle - Ride Check (DC 20)?
If the rider is successful controling the mount is there some sort of check for "staying in the saddle"? Avoiding falling off when a torm is swinging its claws and biting seems to me would be kind of difficult, especially for an inexperienced rider.

[C] Disengaging (or withdrawing/retreating) while on horseback. Is there any difference than while not riding a horse?
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Zarozynia
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 06:26 PM
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Wow, this is a lot to answer. I will try, with everything that I can remember. We do use warhorses in my campaign (both Borderlanders have them) and these are the rules we use:
[A]
* You can take a full round action to attack while your horse is moving, although because of the movement, you cannot take multiple attacks on the same creature. But, theoretically, you could attack three trollocs who are standing in succession if you had enough attacks.
* If your horse is making a double move, you are at minuses to the attack. I believe that there is a feat which lessens the penalty, but dont remember what it is right now.

*Your horse must follow the same rules about movement and attacking as a character. Which means, they can make two actions in a round. So they cannot make a double move and attack, or take a full round action to attack and then move in the same turn. They are allowed a five foot step just like anything else.
*A sidenote, warhorses are very well trained and generally will not attack while carrying a rider unless instructed to do so.

*As long as neither the horse nor rider moves, both could make a full round attack in the same round, as long as the person has made the appropriate ride check to stay on the horse.
*And, contrary to what you wrote the rider and the horse get a full round attack when the rider has made a successful check. If the rider does not make a successful ride check, his mount gets an attack and he is too busy trying not to fall off to fight, not the other way around.

[B]
Although I have not read Proficiecies of the Dragon that Wizard's put out, I do not think that Wizard's has given us enough information about the way that torm and their riders would interact to answer this question well. What I can say is that a trained battle animal will normally not attack without being first given the signal. And, an inexperienced torm rider probably would not know the proper signal to give the torm. I would give them a pretty high DC on a handle animal check to try to get the torm to understand that attacking was what the rider desired.

They would definately need a ride check to stay in the saddle, and it should probably be fairly high because they are inexperienced with riding a torm. On the other hand, given that people ride torm into battle, they probably have decent saddles which are meant to help a rider stay on the animal in battle.

[C]
How good are horses at backing up? Because that's how you disengage in battle. If they cant do it easily, they probably wouldn't be able to perform a disengage. I'm not really a horse person, so I have no easy answer to this question.


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strycher
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 08:23 PM
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OK, so if I have this straight, the mounted combat is different from every other sort of "turn-based combat" rule out there. Even without the Ride-By Combat feat, you can make multiple attacks on mulitple opponents as long as they are strung out in intervals within the movement range of your horse and you have more than one attack! Wow!
So you are essentially moving 10 ft - attack - move 10 feet more - 2nd attack on opponent #2 - move 30 feet - 3rd attack on opponent #3!
Wow.
Do the opponents get Attacks of Opportunities each time you move on? I would think so.

What about an opponent standing 10ft away. If you rode up with your horse and stopped in front of the opponent. No charge, just trot up and stop. Could the rider get full attack (multiple attacks) against that one opponent? (in that same round?)

I have always had combat rules ground into my head of move actions followed by attack actions. Or Attack, then move. Only with special feats do these blend into each other.
Hmmm...So Horse rules are different then... interesting.

As for minuses to attacking - the rule book only gives penalties to ranged attacks during double moves or faster. I don't see anything about melee attacks being penalized. Does this mean that there are no penalties to a melee attack even if your horse is running past at 4x it's speed? Wow!

And thanks for your help. This is all kind of confusing for me.

This post has been edited by strycher on Aug 28 2004, 08:23 PM
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Zarozynia
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 09:44 PM
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horse rules ARENT different, in my oppinion. You are just looking at the horse and rider as one entity, when they BOTH do things in an attack round. When you are on a horse, your horse always gets the "first" move only in the sense that what you horse does will always effect what you can do. Meaning that if you horse is moving, you cannot attack the same opponent more than once (unless, of course, the opponent is larger than a medium sized creature) or, another example, when your horse is running, you are at a negative to your attacks.

But you yourself are not moving, so it doesn't count as a movement attack. Its the same thing as being on a ship in the Starwars RPG, you get full attacks because the ship is moving, you are just on the ship that is moving.

I am not certain on the "official" answer on you getting a full round action if you horse moves and then stops, but I would not let my players do this. My reasons? If your horse moves, they are taking up half of their 6 seconds per that round, and you only then have that other half of the 6 seconds to attack, which only gives you one attack for that round. Make sense?


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 11:43 PM
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Horses can back up great. They don't like to anymore than a human does, because they can't see what's behind them, but given the fearlessness exhibited by warhorses especially I don't think that is a problem.

I've tried to hold on to horses trying to back out of stocks, and man they can back up fast and hard let me tell you. I had rope burns for a week.

They can even come back on their back legs and back up a little on back legs only while they are trying to take your head off with their front hooves.

So yes, I would have to say that a horse can disengage. They are more dexteritous than most would give them credit for.


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Niveus
Posted: Aug 31 2004, 10:19 AM
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i use the vehicle combat rules from modern they smooth the edges and make ofr fast play


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Aug 31 2004, 10:38 PM
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THESE ARE THE OFFICIAL RULES AS PER THE 3.5 SRD
QUOTE

MOUNTED COMBAT
Horses in Combat: Warhorses and warponies can serve readily as combat steeds. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat.
Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally
Casting Spells while Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).
If Your Mount Falls in Battle: If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.
If You Are Dropped: If you are knocked unconscious, you have a 50% chance to stay in the saddle (or 75% if you’re in a military saddle). Otherwise you fall and take 1d6 points of damage.
Without you to guide it, your mount avoids combat.

of course if Zarozynia wishes to house rule that you can use your full attack while moving ahorseback thats ok, just pointing out that under the standard rules you cannot make a full attack if your horse moved more than 5 ft, as standard for anyone else moving more than 5 ft. unless of course you are using a ranged weapon, in which case you can make your full attack, but at a penalty for the swift horse movement.
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Zarozynia
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 02:20 AM
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Quite frankly, I dont think that that disagrees with my point.

By that, the reason that you cant make more than one attack is that you have to move up to your opponent to attack. That agrees with my statement that you cant make two attacks on the same opponent. On the other hand, if you were to move up to a second attacker, you should be able to get a second attack on that attacker. But you can only get on melee attack on that attacker as well.

I dont think that I disagree with the rules, it may just be one interpretation though. I doesn't say outright, and I'm pretty sure that my reasoning actually comes from an explanation that somebody from Wizard's made in their rules section at the website. I will check my source, but I'm at least 75% that its "official".


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Zarozynia
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 06:57 PM
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And I feel REALLY silly. The horse mechanics that I was just talking about are clarified at the Wizard's website, but they are also in the Wheel of Time Core Rule book.


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