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> What do the affinities do?
Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 26 2004, 04:07 AM
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Reading the books and the RPG it is easy to dicern what Fire, Air and Spirit do. You see them used all the time, Fire makes and controls fire and heat, Air controls air speed, can be used to create dense "solid" air, Spirit seems to relate one element to another and seems to be a catalyst element to living things and thing directly pertaining to the Power. But what happens when someone channels Earth, or Water. I cannot remember any good examples in the books. Is there any literature which truly explains the extent of the elements and the rules governing the one power?


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MagusRogue
Posted: May 26 2004, 01:38 PM
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umm... it's kinda obvious. Water can create and control water, such as when Siuan controlled the boat's currents to get back to tar valon quicker in the second book. Earth manipulates the earth and metals, such as when Egwene channels Earth into chains or doors to make them weak and brittle.


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The Great Gray Skwid
  Posted: May 26 2004, 04:07 PM
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Water seems to have some bearing on organics, as well. Thus its presence in healing weaves and the like.

I'd also add that Water never *creates* water, just like Earth doesn't create solid objects from nothing...the Power seems to obey conservation of mass rules, if not conservation of energy...

This post has been edited by The Great Gray Skwid on May 26 2004, 04:09 PM


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Entropic_existence
Posted: May 26 2004, 06:05 PM
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And remember the affinities are pretty much never used alone. In New Spring: The Novel for instance ice is created using either air and fire I believe, or maybe fire and water. But the fire was used to "draw" the ice from the air. Spirit seems like a linker element, heavily used in the conjunction type weaves as well a sort of base for alot of things. Plus it is the only element you can channel when asleep.

So it is really all about combinations, no element really does much on it's own. In my opinion creating fire probably requires fire and air rather than just fire. And if you want to strengthen shields made of air you lace them with earth, or earth and fire for that funky impenterable ball Rand made when fighting Sammeal.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 26 2004, 07:30 PM
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Do you think someone channeling earth could cause a ball of earth to roll around on the ground? Would he need to use air to create motion or would it simply be a matter of will the earth to roll?

Could someone channel earth and create a sculpture from sand?

I am trying to come up with a channeling system that truly follows the propertary laws that Jordan uses to determine how efects with the power are acomplisshed. so it is important to know what each elements fundimental use is.

I see Spirit as a binder/ linker/ catalytic element. I think Fire and Air may be the elements of energy and the elements used to shape the power. Where I see Earth and Water as sort elements of maker elements, that is they provide the basic building blocks of what the power does.

I think the primitive healing used by Aes Sadie is a perfect example of this theory in progress. Spirit is used to relate the weave, or maybe to align the weave with the target while water provides the material of the effect and Air suppies the energy that makes it work. I would think if it were true though that a man should be able to do the same effect using Earth, Spirit and Fire.

How does that hypothosis strike you?


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J


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Axel
Posted: May 26 2004, 07:52 PM
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That might explain the way Nynaeve uses Earth and Fire to heal severing. But it seems to me that you're going deeper into the alchemical view of matter than anything else.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: May 26 2004, 09:41 PM
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I think the RPG has it pretty good as far as affinities go as used in the weaves. Flinn's advanced Healing uses all the elements together, and I think Nyneave used more than just earth and Fire when she was Healing severing but maybe I'm wrong. But yea Primal, I wouldn't have any effect use only one element, and I don't think Jordan uses them with an alchemical model in mind. Remember matter is never created or destroyed and despite what anyone says conservation of energy IMO is maintained too. Saidin and Saidar ARE an energy source so it is just being transferred to create new effects. So yea if you wanted to shape something out of earth I'd say Earth and Air probably, maybe bits of the other elements too not sure. I don't know if on your own it would be possible to do it with what Jordan has in mind since alot of the times they don't specifically mention what elements are used in weaves.


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: May 26 2004, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE
Could someone channel earth and create a sculpture from sand?


not just earth, you would need fire to fuse the sand crystals together, and perhaps air to hold everything in the shape you want while you fuse it. (though I suppose earth might work for that)
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Zarozynia
Posted: May 27 2004, 03:04 PM
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Yeah, I agree, almost all weaves would require multiple elements, one perhaps the directly manipulated the element in question and then another two plus that were catalysts to a degree. With the exception, in my oppinion, of certain spirit weaves. What I haven't seen mentioned here is that spirit seems to be able to be used to create a shield, and I think, to sever as well. So I would say that under specific circumstances, spirit might be the only element that would be used on its own, and probably then only when it relates to the human brain.


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: May 27 2004, 04:54 PM
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I've always thought of it (though I'm probably wrong) as degrees of matter and energy. Earth affects solids, even ones that aren't necessarily made of "earth," for example wood and other minerals, though not necessarily living, Water affects liquids, especially water itself, Air affects gases, Fire affects energy, and Spirit affects that spark, that indescribable force that enhances and brings about life and "magic." I doubt it's accurate, but it's something I've sorta used if nothing else as a base for when I invent weaves.


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Aleshandre
Posted: May 27 2004, 07:27 PM
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WEEEEEELLLLLLL,
Here is my theory:

First, the five elements are borrowed from the Greek Atomists who believed that Air, Earth, Fire and Water were the basic elements (atoms) of everything that exists and that the amount of each element that an object contained determined the flexibility, density and strength of the object in question. Spirit was borrowed from Eastern philosophies (ki, chi, etc.) and from Judeo-Christian traditions that involve the existance of spirit in conjunction with physical matter to produce life (in essence, spirit is the lifeforce).

Second, each element represents an aspect of real world physics, though the names of each aspect weren't changed.
Fire - Represents intelligence, which must exist for any kind of creationist philosophy or religion to be correct - fire represents light, which represents knowlege of things hidden by darkness; knowlege can only be obtained by intelligence.
Earth - Represents physical matter. The most dense of the elements, must be present for any physical object to exist.
Air - Represents space. Without space, all that exists is contained in an infinitecimal speck with no dimensions. Air represents 3D space.
Water - Represents time. Time is often described as flowing, having ripples and with other atributes that denote fluidity. Without time, all events occur simultaneously...if at all.
Spirit - Obviously represents spirit. That part of each person (and creature) that is eternal. Spirit exists outside of time, but can exist in conjunction with time, space and physical matter.

Third - Saidin and Saidar are representative of the ancient Greek concept of Love and Strife as elements of creation and change, that work together and opposite of each-other to drive the universe.

Fourth - By using the various elements of creation (time, space, matter, intelligence and spirit), a channeler can effect any object or person that exists. The reason that Balefire uses all 5 elements is because it affects all aspects of a person. Time (water) is used to stretch back into the past and rip the thread from the pattern, intelligence (fire) is used to remove the thoughts and ideas that the person had, matter (earth) is used to rip the particles of their body appart, space (air) is used to spread the elements of their thread across the universe and spirit is used to sever their connection with the wheel to prevent them from being restored until they are spun out again in the natural course of the ages.
The use of this perspective explains why a person who has been healed using all 5 elements would not be as fatigued afterward and why omitting fire and earth would cause a greater toll to be taken (no matter injected to repair the damage, so other systems are overtaxed and no intelligence to guide the copying of dNA or rNA causing the body to be repaired innefficiently) in a manner of speaking, using water to heal is accelerating time within the body of the person being healed. This also explains why using water can effect the drying of clothes, weather, lightning and other effects that require time to appear.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 27 2004, 11:49 PM
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Yes and in combination the elements might represent other fundemental theories like maybe Fire + Water = entropy. Thank you Aleshandre this is exactly what i am looking for. What I am trying to do is devise a magic system that is fluid and has the feel of the one power. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with what is currently in place I am just doning this for my own entertainment and amusement. The thing is that in alot of ways the only game I have ever played that really mad3e me think of the one power is Mage by White Wolf, and maybe in some ways also the Starwars RPG. I hate the "d10" system though. So I am trying to make a system of magic that takes into acount the folowing elements.

1. Varying OP strenght levels relative to a male and a female power scale.
2. Five elements with each channeler having a unique combination of apptitude toward the elements.
3. Varying talents as mentioned in the books.
4. I want it to invole a skill like OP Weave, so that some peaple can weave really intricate weaves while others may be able to channel truly amazing amounts of energy but be unable to do anything complex with that energy.


Also, a thought, in the books a person channels air and they get wind, if they channel fire they get fire. Lastly if they channel spirit they can create a shield or sever someone. I am still wandering what happens if a person channels earth and water.


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J


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Lariane Sedai
Posted: May 28 2004, 01:01 AM
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Referring to your original question, Primal Paladin, I think in a roleplaying sense some of the elements are just more "flashy" - while Earth can be used to devestating effect, as can Water when used correctly, neither are traditionally associated with mega amounts of special effects, etc - perhaps viewed as more subtle extensions of the weave. I think, though, that most of your questions should be answered with common sense, and you are delving beyond the Weave framework set out in the book into a more free form version of elmentalist magic found in a lot of other RPG's. To tamper with the "Weave" idea and break it down into individual threads of the different affinites is becoming overly technical and would in my view be kind of needless. Of course you can make a sculpture with sand - if an appropriate weave exists; if it does not, an old Wilder from a small coastal village may have her own repotoire of custom Weaves she has developed through neccessity or experimenting.
If you feel that going into that sort of detail will help your game, then so be it - but if you are the DM it will take a hell of a lot of work and if you are a player I have no doubt that your GM will be the receiver of many great headaches.
Don't get me wrong - I am all for roleplaying detail and the depth it can add to the game - just be wary of the amount of time you spend on little details like that as opposed to the bigger picture.
I hope I have been of help,
Sincerely,
Lariane Sedai of the Red Ajah.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 28 2004, 01:10 AM
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Actually, I am not simply loking to delve deeper in the current weave system as set forth by WoTC in the Wheel of Time RPG. I am in actuallity trying to adapt the basic principles of games like Arse Magica and I think there is another called Amber or some such into a D20 based magic system that is somewhat skill based and including all the elements listed above plus some others like a more in depth system for "spirit" combat i.e. when one channeler atempts to shield another. I know it is going to be alot of trouble but I have found a wonderful group of peaple on this forum to bounce my ideas off of and I am confident that I can make it work.


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J


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Talan
Posted: May 28 2004, 09:24 AM
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Well, Amber won't help you much. The official verison of Sorcery in the Amber Diceless Roleplaying Game is usually the first to get houseruled.

What you can do - and is allready doing as far as i can tell - is make a system with different "building blocks". In the WoT that is the 5 Powers (I created an Amber Sorcery system where the basic principles were Air, Fire, Water, Earth, Death, Life, Shadow (an Amber term for a world) and Quintessence (magical energy).

When you have defined the different Powers you can simply let your Players design their own spells by letting them explain how it works, and which Powers are needed to accomplish a certain task.

IMHO it is very important to create a "basic" or "common" level of ability with Affinities or Talents. In the game from WotC Talents have become a prerequsite rather than a bonus - and the same can be said for Affinities. RJ makes it clear that very few people are strong in more than 2 Affinities, for example.
You could perhaps have several "rungs", describing ability in Talents and Affinities (?) (which could be translated into numbers):
Weak
Normal
Strong
Very Strong

The ability to weave the OP could be a Skill Check - and might affect Save DC (?).
Power could be defined as the highest level Weave you are able to Channel and/or the amount of Magic Points/weave slots etc. you have.

Personally I think that Talents are for weaves that are very complicated (like Healing or Travelling) or affects large territories (Cloud Dancing, Earthsinging). It doesn't take a special Talent to make a Fireball, thats a simpleand direct manipulation of Air and Fire.

Just some ideas/thoughts.

Talan
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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 28 2004, 12:40 PM
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Yea Tal that is kinda where I am headed. I think that some thi9ngs should have a sort of static hermetic element to them. Things like healing and weaveing a gateway. Other things though would work like a basic set of principles that govern how one would form a weave to accomplish a certain type of effect like freezing water or putting out a fire. The flows would have to be altered depending on the fire, or could be altered if say you wanted to make ice cubes instead of one ice block.

The other thing I am mulling over is what about those who are exstremly powerful in the power but have no training. If someone channels fire at something it burns, if he is strong it burns alot if he is weak it burns less. He might be able to cause tidal waves by channeling water or gusts of hundred mile per hour winds, but lack the skill to form those threads into anything more complex.

So far I have in my head a system of skills and mods for afinities and talents. I am thinking that DCs for weaveing an effect will go up the more elements you have to weave or the more complex the effect. This coupled with a system of magnitudes to define what it "cost" the channeler to pull the weave off.

The theory that it is no more complicated to light a bonfire than it is to light a candle, it just take more power. Lighting ten candels at once might not reqiure as much power as the bonfire but would be considerably more complex. In the same way shielding someone is more a mattter of strength and guile than of any ability to create complex weaves.

I think talents should represent an intrinsic understanding of a specialized application of the power more than a grouping of weaves. Nynaeve being the perfect example of this. She is very strong, stronger than Moghedien, but it is not a measure of her strength that she can instantly heal a fractured finger with no side effects. The ability to do that is a measure of her nack for the very complicated weaving required to repair living tissue. Now healing a person who has massive trauma to mast of thier person instantly with no side effects, that would be more a measure of her strength, or fighting an insideous and agressive virus in multiple patients at the same time.


Peace
J


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Freya
Posted: May 28 2004, 02:30 PM
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PP22, years and years ago, our group started playing in the Wheel of Time world using Ars Magica rules. Not many of us knew the system, and it worked alright for awhile. Eventually, we converted over to the Earthdawn system.

Earthdawn is skills-based. Channelers had both Weaving and Force skills for each Affinity. (ie, Fire Force, Spirit Weaving, etc) Weaving represented the channeler's technique with the affinity (ie, the complexity of weaves they could handle), and Force represented their raw power in that affinity. So, someone like a Knitting Circle member might have high Weaving totals, but low Force...lots of technique, but little overall power.

Weaves consisted of various threads of different affinities with different target numbers, etc. For example, Healing consisted of three threads: 1 Spirit, 1 Air, and 1 Water at difficulty 8 with Spirit Force as the effect. The player rolled their Spirit, Air and Water Weaving skills at a difficulty of 8. After all the rolls were successful (failed rolls could be rerolled at the channeler's next valid opportunity), the player would then roll their Spirit Force to determine the overall effect. So, someone with a low Spirit Force total would not, on average, be able to Heal very much (like Sheriam). And someone with a high Spirit Force total would be able to Heal a lot without breaking a sweat (like Nyneave).

Things like trying to Shield another channeler or undoing an alarm Ward would require an extended roll. Channeler A tries to Shield Channeler B, A rolls Spirit Weaving and gains a total. Channeler B rolls their Spirit Weaving to undo A's progress and gains a total. If B's total is more, the Shield is broken before it even finishes forming, if A's total is more (but not to the 'threshold' number), the battle continues.

There also existed Multiweaving, Weavesight, Finesse (represents the channeler's control and targeting of a formed weave), and Concentration skills.

We loved the system. The only thing it lacked was rules for channelers becoming fatigued due to channeling. (everyone trusted the GM. If you botched a Weaving or Force roll, he might say that you cannot channel that affinity anymore that day or that you cannot channel at all that day, etc.)

edit: Forgot to mention. Differences in gender strengths were treated as follows. Earthdawn allows for skills to be raised at different experience point levels. So, a higher/harder skill might take 2x the amount a lower/easier skill would take. So, for raising Weaving and Force skills, men raised at the lowest XP level for Earth and Fire-related skills, at a mid-level for Air and Water, and at the highest level for Spirit. Women raised Air and Water at the lowest level, Earth and Fire at the mid-level, and Spirit at the highest level.

This post has been edited by Freya on May 28 2004, 02:37 PM
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Aleshandre
Posted: May 28 2004, 02:57 PM
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I am having a thought. I'll type it up as I go.

3 new skills:

Power (con); Measures the amount of raw power that a person can use unaided. For men, this represents Saidin, for women Saidar.

Fleuency (wis); Measures the technical skill of the channeler. This represents the ability to perform intricate or otherwise complex (though not necessarilly powerful) weaves.

Intensity (cha); Measures the ability to channel large quantities of the power. This represents the ability to use high powered (though not necessarilly complex) weaves. note: This skill does not effect the weave level in any way, but does affect the save DC for weaves that allow saves.

New effect for affinities:
Affinities grant a +1 misc. modifier to skill checks for the One Power for each affinity that the character has.

How this affects the mechanics (the way I intend it):
-Each weave needs to be adjusted to indicate which skill it is related to.
-Only members of a Channeling Tradition may take ranks in Fleuency or Intensity.
-Weaves made outside of the character's Talents must be made with the Power skill (basically the catch-all skill).
-If a channeler doesn't have the skill that a weave is associated with, the Power skill is used.
-Critical failure is a possible consequence of weaves cast with the Power skill.
-Overchanneling rolls use the Power skill (this is only rolls to determine success, not fort saves for failure).
-Angreal and Sa'angreal now give their bonus to the skill roll for channelling and to Power rolls for overchannelling.
-Intensity based weaves that have a related save DC is increased by 1/2 times the character's ranks in intensity (rounded down).


There it is. Comments, questions or Balance issues?


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: Jun 3 2004, 02:17 AM
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Where I am heading is toward a free flowing spell casting system. I think there will be some level of wrote weaves, maybe a bonus based on haveing done the same kind of effect.

I think each time a player wants to do a weave he will roll against a DC based on the complexity, how fine tuned the weave must be, how many flows are necessary to make the effect ect... of the weave modified by, if the character has a talent for that kind of weave.

The "cost" of the weave will be determined by how much damage the weave does, how large an area it effects and how intense the effect and so on, in terms of magnitude.

I still don't really have a good grasp on how I am going to do this. But this is what I am looking at. It is also the reason why I am needing to know specifically what you all think each element can do when channeled exsclusivly. To those who think that any weave requires more than one flow, it just is not so in the books. When a channeler uses what would be Arms of Air in the books I is described as if they channel air do so.

Peace
J


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