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> Heroes of the Horn, Like a big, giant, watermelon
Zinuk
Posted: Sep 2 2004, 12:27 AM
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Here is what Artur Hawkwing says to Hurin:

QUOTE (The Great Hunt @ Chap 47, p 662)
"Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day."

So he never said that Hurin was bound to the Horn from now on, neither that he will be one day; just that he might be. It seems more likely to be a compliment to give him more courage than a fortelling of his future binding. As Hawkwing said before, you need more than bravery to become a Heroe (and we still don't know what exactly you need to do to become one).

BTW, this quote also makes it clear that it is the Wheel that binds the Heroes, not the Horn itself.
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Axel
Posted: Sep 2 2004, 02:27 AM
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We can make any number of assumptions about the importance of that statement. I would suggest not pulling up some obscure line from the books and instead looking at bigger (or at least often repeated) ideas and making logical assumptions. Remember, RJ is an author, his first goal it to tell a story, so not every line needs to have significance and not every word is important. (this is what I hate most about literature. Damnit people, not everything is a symbol! Some things are just there to flesh out the scene!!)

Even taking the statement literally you must remember that everything in the world is part of the Pattern which is being spun by the Wheel. Were they so inclined people could blame or praise the Wheel for everything Therefore the Horn and anything it influences is a part of the Pattern which is spun by the Wheel. Hawkwing's statement may have nothing to do with the proposition that the Horn binds the Heroes.

Now we have reason not to believe the Wheel is intelligent, or at least not conscience. We know that every turning of the Ages brings back the same circumstances and causes the same evils to re-occur. If the Wheel were conscience of its actions it would not spin out the followers of the DO which are the greatest threat to its continued existance. Actually this raises another interesting question: The DO exists outside the Pattern, right? Then why is it the influence of the DO directly defines the continuation of the Pattern?


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Zinuk
Posted: Sep 2 2004, 06:54 AM
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QUOTE (Axel)
We can make any number of assumptions about the importance of that statement. I would suggest not pulling up some obscure line from the books and instead looking at bigger (or at least often repeated) ideas and making logical assumptions. Remember, RJ is an author, his first goal it to tell a story, so not every line needs to have significance and not every word is important. (this is what I hate most about literature. Damnit people, not everything is a symbol! Some things are just there to flesh out the scene!!)

If he only said it once, then of course, you could say it might be a mistake. But Hawkwing says it quite a few times over, so it is not meaningless.

QUOTE (Axel)
Even taking the statement literally you must remember that everything in the world is part of the Pattern which is being spun by the Wheel. Were they so inclined people could blame or praise the Wheel for everything Therefore the Horn and anything it influences is a part of the Pattern which is spun by the Wheel. Hawkwing's statement may have nothing to do with the proposition that the Horn binds the Heroes.

You are right on this. But if the Wheel is responsible for everything, then it's far more plausible that it also takes care of the binding of the Heroes than it lets it to a mere object, the Horn. As I said, it just makes more sense that way. Think about it, the Wheel already know what everybody is doing so that binding people to the Horn would just be one more functionnality; whereas, if you suppose that it is the Horn itself that does the binding, then you must suppose it can interact with the Pattern so that it can read the actions of everybody so that it can decide whether or not to bind them. This is just too much for an object.

QUOTE (Axel)
If the Wheel were conscience of its actions it would not spin out the followers of the DO which are the greatest threat to its continued existance.

Because the Wheel is balance and so the Pattern is neither Good nor Evil; that's why it spuns followers of the DO as well as champions of Good. That's in the BBoBA:

QUOTE (BBoBA)
A universe in which the major controlling factor is the Wheel of Time and the Great Pattern it spins. A pattern in which light and dark, good and evil, male and female, and life and death struggle for balance within the weave of destiny.

If the Pattern is sentient, which might not be the case (it could be algorithmic), it is in such a way that would be so alien to us that you should not apply human reasonings to it. Remember it was created so that good and evil could balance each other, which could not be possible if it did not spun champions of evil as well.

Even if it isn't "intelligent", at least the Wheel is something like a computer program since the ta'veren, for example, are "part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanisms." [This is from the BBoBA.] So it would certainly be the most logic choice as to what binds Heroes to the Horn, as it already has everything to do so.

QUOTE (Axel)
The DO exists outside the Pattern, right? Then why is it the influence of the DO directly defines the continuation of the Pattern?

Because the Creator and the DO are the only two forces outside of the Pattern. So you can only have a fight between Good and Evil. And the DO does not define the continuation of the Pattern. Insome Ages, he didn't even have any influence. And even the DO cannot destroy the Wheel (although I remember Ishamael saying so, but he is mad and in direct contradiction with the BBoBA quote below) but, if set free, will remake it to his will; and this time, I don't think balance would be in the design:

QUOTE (BBoBA)
It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a Creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image.
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Axel
Posted: Sep 3 2004, 02:42 AM
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In the books it is said that, "if freed he will destroy the Wheel and replace it with a Line, one forever in his control." Or something to that effect, I'm too lazy to look up exact passages.

We come back, though, to one important thing: what the Wheel can do. As far as we know the power of the Wheel is only spinning our Threads into the Pattern. We know it is the Horn that summons forth Heroes. We can assume that because it is an object that it was created by men. Then there is no reason it is the Wheel itself that binds the Heroes as the Horn must be destroyed and remade. During the time when there is no Horn there is no reason to have these souls specially marked.

It is the DO who defines the end of the AoL and is the defining factor of the AoI. He is crucial to at least 2 Ages and yet is outside the Pattern. By that deffinition anything he does should deviate from the Pattern and yet he is so important to it.

This post has been edited by Axel on Sep 3 2004, 02:44 AM


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 3 2004, 08:09 PM
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I propose that just as the dark one's prison (with its weak spot) was created by the Creator at the start of Time, the algorithm or 'intelligence' that allows the Wheel to set aside certain individual souls as Heroes was also created at that time along with everything else the wheel can already do (such as create Ta'veren to keep balance between good and evil).

My second proposition is that just as man was able to, in one or more age, tap in to the weak place in the dark one's prison, man has been able to, in one or more age or perhaps one or more turning, tap in to this well of Heroes with a created ter'angreal-ish item, such as, but not necessarily always, the Horn of Valere.

The Horn of Valere may well be destroyed in this age or a future age and at some point in an even later age, when the need for heroes of myth and legend to return and fight the forces of evil is great, a great mind or group of minds will create a new item, or perhaps a similar item, or even the same item, to summon these heroes (perhaps after they are discovered in T'a'r 'for the first time' so to speak).

Once again, if we are assuming that RJ's universe follows the laws of logic, which i think everyone has agreed upon, then Occam's Razor applies. The simplest explaination is usually correct....

It seems much simpler to me that the creator pre-programmed all of the important keys of the universe than that man created some object which re-orders the natural structure of soul-reuse already programmed by the Creator.

~llewin
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Axel
Posted: Sep 10 2004, 01:39 AM
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That brings us to another theory I proposed. One which you must agree makes alot of sense: All souls hang out in Tel'aran'rhiod. Now before you go crazy on this, consider: 1. All the Heroes hang out here waiting either for rebirth or the Horn. 2. All wolves end up here. From the second we can infer that all wolfbrothers similarly hang out here. Now we've already got two kinds of humans who hang out in the World of Dreams, why not the rest?
Then all the Horn needs to do is to mark certain souls which it pulls out of the World of Dreams. Temporal hacking, no biggie.


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Sa_sara
Posted: Sep 13 2004, 10:37 PM
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*giggles*
Oh...joyous joy...
let's get a list of confirmed heroes and who we'd probably know them as (most famous legendary person with that name) because I'm curious that way and it'll be a resource for at least one campaign

1. Artur Hawkwing (Arthur -- not a king, as far as we know he existed in our age as a minor British soldier and has a very inaccurate horde of movies made about him)
2. Paedrig [Patrick] (St. Patrick, a Welsh boy who got sold into slavery in Ireland, ran home, then left for Ireland again to convert people)
3. Otarin [Oscar] (Oscar, an Irish Prince, Fianna [army] hero, and figure of legend who shows up in "Diarmuid and Grainne" and refuses to help his grandfather, Fionn, chase after a young girl who has decided she won't marry him)

From (mostly) the WoT FAQ
4. Mikel of the Pure Heart: Archangel Michael? (possibly the Saint...)
5.&6. Shivan the Hunter, Calian: "He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side.": two Hindu deities: Shiva the Destroyer and Kali, goddess of death.
7. Amaresu, with the Sword of the Sun: Amaterasu, ancient Japanese goddess of the sun, from whom the Japanese royal family claims descent. (only well-known female sun deity on earth)

Back to what we get from books

8. Birgitte (Bridget, a goddess, also possibly the Saint of similar name)
9. Gaidal Cain (linked to Birgitte)

blah...I don't want theories on people who you feel SHOULD be on this list posted in my response...just people we've heard in connection with the horn being blown by Mat or in gleeman's tales of the horn...I want to see how many we actually know the names/possible identities of!


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Axel
Posted: Sep 14 2004, 11:36 PM
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Why do you seem to have a problem with Arthur? He is a figure in many English legends. I reccomend you Thomas Malory's Le Mort D'Arthur The movies have nothing to do with it, they are mostly based on Malory's work. In there are his Knights of the Round Table, the Grail legend. He's related to so much.... And the source of the legends that I read of said it was more based on a mixture of Gaelic, Celtic, and Roman legends than anything else. Where you get this stuff about a common soldier or the influence of movies I don't understand at all.
Then there's the tale of Hawkwing. Much of it is based on Arthur (or vice versa if you prefer) however the tale of his death resembles not so much Arthur's death (inwhich little is spoken of his kingdom) as Alexander's. As we know after Alexander was forced to abandon his conquests when his troops refused to cross the Indus River he was killed by disease. Hundreds of battles survived without a scratch, and killed by a mosquito bite.... Anyway after his death his empire was torn to pieces by squabbling heirs and warlords.

..... What did that have to do with the topic anyway?


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Sa_sara
Posted: Sep 16 2004, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE (Axel @ Sep 14 2004, 09:36 PM)
Why do you seem to have a problem with Arthur?

Breaking from the Subject for a moment because it's already been broken from:
*just sighs*
If you don't notice from reading and from the way I say things, I'm using a lot of sarcasm here...because that's what I do when I'm sick, tired, hungry, and frustrated.

Easy answer: I'm a history major and I like making jokes about pseudohistoric movies. Think about that.

I have no problem with the LEGEND. I'm a historian though...and I gave the historic version of him so please forgive me for working within my discipline...would you like me to change my major? That's where I get this...the movies comment was a joke (that went over your head obviously) about the recent "King Arthur" movie that came out this summer claiming to be "the true historic account" and then proceeded to show Picts and Saxons using technologies not yet invented and the Roman Empire imposing BYZANTINE Empire religious policy. I'm sorry if you don't get my jokes.

Yes, the literature is great if you want a good piece of fiction or a tale of the fantastic variety (though some of the tales spend about as much time as RJ on a minor detail like what a brooch looks like), but it's about as historically accurate as Oliver Cromwell being a pacifist and a Catholic (In case you have never taken European history: he was a Protestant who wanted to exterminate Irish Catholics with bloody massacres). Every legend has its beinning. I simply put down the most basic grain of folklore/truth that could be found behind each of the heros. Forgive me if my being a history major and knowing that the real Arthur (as far as we can tell) wasn't some romantic hero king but a grunt soldier offends you.

Forgive me for thinking it was a good idea to compile a list of the known/confirmed Heroes of the Horn! Also...excuse me for not thinking about what you could possibly find to complain about and insult me for while I was doing it!

I'm here to do game related things and talk about the books...forgive me if I get a little upset that you interrupted my good idea with your invalid assumption that I have something against a mostly fictional character just because I happen to be a history major. If you'll notice, I also didn't write that St. Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland...because the real story of him is GOOD ENOUGH and doesn't need the extra folklore tacked on.

QUOTE
What did it have to do with the topic?

My post...everything, the topic is "HEROES OF THE HORN"! I was making a list of Heroes of the Horn...and their real world bases (to the best of our knowledge in folklore or if based on factual people, of fact)
Your post...nothing that I can see


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Zarozynia
Posted: Sep 16 2004, 10:27 PM
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Sa_Sara...the list is awsome. Question though, you said that you got those extra heroes (4-7) from the WoT F&Q...do you know where they got this info. from? I dont remember them from the books, which isn't to say that they aren't mentioned once, but I'd love to see the references to them to update some of my information.

The horn of valere, of course, being in possession of a certain character of mine...it may come in handy someday. wink.gif


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Axel
Posted: Sep 16 2004, 11:57 PM
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Yes I did take European history. And I aced the AP exam thank you verry much. As for your "sarcasm," "humor," and "jokes." Your sense of humor needs some serious work. Maybe if you came up with something funny we might be able to recognize it as a joke.


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Sa_sara
Posted: Sep 17 2004, 01:08 AM
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Zarozynia -- I don't know where they got 4-7 exactly, but I'll look it up and get back to you.

Axel -- Thanks, you're about as witty as a mudpuddle yourself.

I think that more than anything...your attitude needs adjusting and you need to stop insulting Moderators and calling everyone else stupid. You've insulted half the forum in other threads other by calling them stupid for believing what RJ has written to be the law of RJ's world.

I felt I needed to explain the European history since most people don't take that class and you've had a hard time understanding what isn't explained on previous occaisions and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who is getting fed up with you asking fifteen more questions or just ignoring our explanations. I was trying to prevent that from happening here. Oh...and just so you know, at least one person GOT the joke. I put them in to lighten things up. If you don't get them, at least don't rant at me because you took them seriously. I don't put anything offensive in them.

But the whole "don't insult moderators" thing is just a suggestion...the "don't insult other people" thing is law

Sarcasm...you don't like it, stop making meaningless off-topic reply posts.


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Sa_sara
Posted: Sep 17 2004, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (Zarozynia @ Sep 16 2004, 08:27 PM)
Question though, you said that you got those extra heroes (4-7) from the WoT F&Q...do you know where they got this info. from?

Okay...that and I'm expanding the list because the Encyclopaedia WoT also gave me page numbers for other heroes! Yay! Longer list for us!
Editing because I ealized it was sort of hard to read...

All the heroes listed are mentioned (however briefly) in TGH,Ch47 and some get other appearances. Some, that's their only shot.
Format:
hero [name we would know in modern day] (information about the version we would know or suspected personas in our time)

1. Artur Hawkwing [Arthur] (think real hard...the Legend, there was also a real warrior by that name once)
2. Paedrig the peacemaker [Patrick] (St. Patrick, a Welsh boy who got captured and sold into slavery in Ireland, ran home, then left for Ireland again to convert people)
3. Otarin [Oscar] (Oscar, an Irish Prince, Fianna [army] hero, and figure of legend who shows up in "Diarmuid and Grainne" and refuses to help his grandfather, Fionn, chase after a young girl who has decided she won't marry him)
4. Mikel of the Pure Heart [Michael] (Archangel Michael, possibly the Saint)
5. Shivan the Hunter [Shiva] ("He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be , he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side.": two Hindu deities: Shiva the Destroyer and Kali, goddess of death.)
6. Calian [Kali] (see Shivan above)
7. Amaresu, with the Sword of the Sun [Amaterasu] (ancient Japanese goddess of the sun, from whom the Japanese royal family claims descent.)
8. Birgitte [Bridget] (a goddess, also possibly the Saint of similar name)
9. Gaidal Cain [? -- not the slightest clue] (linked to Birgitte)
10. Blaes of Matuchin [?] (?)
11. Buad of Albhain [?] (?)
12. Lian [?] (?) -- hero of "Lian's Stand" tale
13. Rogosh Eagle-eye, Rogosh of Talmour [?] -- In stories he is associated with his love, Dunsinin. He is an oler man when he is summoned by the horn (white hair), but still a hero in a romance novel (namely...The Flame, the Blade and the Heart). His most recent incarnation before now was after the Trolloc Wars.

13 heroes known...RJ has a sense of humor.

(again, all are mentioned in TGH,Ch47 even if they never show up anywhere else)

This post has been edited by Sa_sara on Sep 17 2004, 08:15 PM


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Axel
Posted: Sep 17 2004, 01:38 AM
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I haven't insulted anyone... yet. As for offending anyone, I couldn't care less if someone's offended by my opinion, because I'm not changing it for them or anyone else. I might change it because of someone but never for them. Everything I say, I mean. And as for....
Damn... I can't stay angry... "Hey Jude" is playing.... Oh, whatever.... *walks off singing along with his Beatles records*

Now where was I? Oh yes, Tel'aran'rhiod:
I contend that the souls of all the dead hang out in the World of Dreams awaiting their rebirth in another age. We know the heroes do, we know the wolves do. We can suppose that Wolfbrothers do, because of their close connection with wolves in all other respects. If both heroes and wolfbrothers do, then why not everyone else?


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Aleshandre
Posted: Sep 17 2004, 02:04 PM
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Axel, you need to back off alittle. You are getting too close to flaming. If you don't agree with something, then say so, but there is no reason to get angry because somebody doesn't agree with you.


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 17 2004, 11:19 PM
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Not that the wonderful mods need help but.. AMEN ale and sara... yeeeesh... disagreeing is one thing, being disagreeable...and i use the term as a euphamism here... is quite another!!
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Niveus
Posted: Sep 18 2004, 12:05 AM
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I know Ialready mentioned this but here goes a rather odd comaparrision



the world of dreams is like the water tension bubble on the top of a perfectly still body of water all the residence of the world can travel all across the surface like water bugs but the moment soap is added to the water there is a large area that can no longer be traveled


Dream walker and others who are forign to the World of dreams are like the soap that breaks the water tension and pushes everyhing away from them thus the world always appears to be empty save for the few residence that can resist this effect Ie heroes of the horn wolfs maybe a few more

this would explain why no one is ever seen in the world of dreams but the conservation of souls woulf have to be there to as we already know its cyclical

This post has been edited by Niveus on Sep 18 2004, 12:08 AM


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 18 2004, 12:51 AM
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Thats a really interesting idea actually! wow.. hmmm.....zehr interessant...

Ok...a few things... what about randoms who dream themselves in to T'a'r, those who enter in the flesh...

Next thing, what about wolves, why is it we can see them in t'a'r?
Not at all debunking you, but are there logical explainations for these things?
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Sep 18 2004, 03:11 AM
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Wow, this has become quite different than my original question.


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Niveus
Posted: Sep 18 2004, 03:20 AM
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TOPIC WE DONT NEED NO STINKEN TOPIC!!!! lol ya we kinda strayed but i went for it


those who can resist the repulsion

dreamwalkers
wolves
wolfbrothers
those in the flesh
those randoms who dream themselves in to T'a'r with the latent dreamer feat

those who create the repulsion

dreamwalkers
wolves
wolfbrothers


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