Powered by Invision Power Board


  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> New Slot Pool System, A try to make it more balanced
Zinuk
Posted: Jun 27 2004, 11:44 PM
Report PostEdit PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 51
Member No.: 166
Joined: 21-June 04



This system was designed to combine the flexibility of the Slot Pool System (Ishamael's one in the UtdB Netbook; it's on page 97) with the limitations of high level weaves of the Official slot system (the system of the rulebook).

It is based on the idea that when your slot pool goes under a certain threshold, the maximum weave level you can use without overchanneling decreases by 1: the more you channel, the more you are tired and so the harder it is to cast powerful weaves.

The calculations involved here are quite simple (they are the same as in the Slot Pool System) and are only made when leveling up. With the way of tracking Weave points left that I suggest below, the game should not be slowed down at all.

WEAVE POINT THRESHOLD SYSTEM

Weave points given. Each channeler has a certain number of Weave points. Each time she uses a weave, it costs her weave points. To determine how many Weave points a channeler has, the calculations are exactly the same than those of Ishamael's system. For example, here are the calculations for a level 12 initiate with 17 Int and 13 Wis. Next to the numbers, you shall find a number of | that say how much Weave points the channeler has from the considered level; for easy counting, a space has been put between each group of five |.
CODE
level 0: 4               Weave points given:  4*½ =  2   ||
level 1: 4 + 1 + 1 = 6   Weave points given:  6*1 =  6   ||||| |
level 2: 4 + 1 = 5       Weave points given:  5*2 = 10   ||||| |||||
level 3: 3 + 1 = 5       Weave points given:  5*3 = 15   ||||| ||||| |||||
level 4: 3               Weave points given:  3*4 = 12   ||||| ||||| ||
level 5: 3               Weave points given:  3*5 = 15   ||||| ||||| |||||
level 6: 2               Weave points given:  2*6 = 12   ||||| ||||| ||
level 7: 0               Weave points given:  0*7 =  0   none
level 8: 0               Weave points given:  0*8 =  0   none
level 9: 0               Weave points given:  0*9 =  0   none

Each time you use Weave points, just remove the number of Weave points you have just used, starting from the highest level line. This allows easy tracking of slots left. Each time a line has been completely removed, you can't anymore channel weaves of that level without overchanneling. In the example above, when the channeler has all her weave points, she can cast level 0-6 weaves normally, but must overchannel by +1 for level 7 weaves, and cannot use level 8+ weaves (even by overchanneling) because she only has 17 in Int. If she had more in Int, she would have to overchannel by +2 for level 8 weaves and by +3 for level 9 weaves. Level 10+ weaves would in any case be impossible to cast without an angreal or a link.

Example. During a combat against a shadowspawn, the previous channeler used a level 6 fireball to defeat it. She erases 6 Weave points on her level 6 line, an so now has 6 weave points left on the level 6 line:
CODE
level 0: ||
level 1: ||||| |
level 2: ||||| |||||
level 3: ||||| ||||| |||||
level 4: ||||| ||||| ||
level 5: ||||| ||||| |||||
level 6: ||||| |

During the attack, one of her companion was badly injured, so she must heal him. She decides to use a Heal weave at level 7. For this, as the maximum level she can use without overchanneling is 6 (the highest level line wich has | on is the level 6 line), she must overchannel by +1 (as 6+1=7) and it costs her 7 slots (see below for the cost of a weave being overchanneled), thus using all her remaining Weave points on the level 6 line, and also using one Weave point of the level 5 line. She then has 14 slots left of level 5 and none of level 6. Her new status is:
CODE
level 0: ||
level 1: ||||| |
level 2: ||||| |||||
level 3: ||||| ||||| |||||
level 4: ||||| ||||| ||
level 5: ||||| ||||| ||||
level 6: none left

As the last line that has | on it is the level 5 line, the maximum weave level she can now cast without overchanneling is 5; to use level 6 weaves, she must now overchannel by +1. For level 7 weaves, it is +2. She still cannot overchannel level 8 weaves because of her Int limitation. If she had a better Int, she would have to overchannel by +3 for level 8 weaves, and level 9+ weaves are out of reach in any case without an angreal or a link.

Weave cost. A level x weave always cost you x weave points, even if you overchannel; the only way to reduce the cost is an angreal or a link (an angreal and a link reduce the cost by their rating). Level 0 weaves cost 0 if you succeed a DC 20 Concentration check and cost 1 otherwise; however, to use a level 0 weave, you must at least have 1 weave point left.

If you don't have enough weave points left to cast a weave, the missing weave points are taken as subdual HP, but the cost is 5x the weave points missing; 0th level weaves cost 1 subdual HP. So, if you are missing 2 weave points, it will cost you 10 subdual HP to replace them.

N.B. The fact that, despite overchanneling, the cost of a level x weave is always x is to counterbalance the increase flexibility given by the pool system (you can, after all, use a lot of level 1-3 weaves; if you could overchannel them from 0th level slots without limitations, this would bring them to possibly infinitly many, thus seriouly unbalancing the game as is).

Weave level use limitations. Just as in the Official Slot System, you have an ability score limit (10+weave's level) that cannot be overcome by overchanneling (see the unofficial FAQ for details).

So, even if you have 10 weave points available, you cannot use level 10 weaves if you haven't got 20 in your main channeling stat. You should of course also have at least level 7 slots available and overchannel at +3 (as in the Official Slot System) as described above.

Overchanneling rules. As a level x weave always costs x weave points, you don't have anymore any advantage to overchannel unless you can't do otherwise. Otherwise, the overchanneling rules work exactly the same as in the Official Slot Pool System.

REMARK. Note that, with this revised system, you can't use as many of your highest level weave slots available, but you still have increased flexibility (you can use much more low level weaves).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's it. If there is anything you don't understand (I'm not always clear) or you don't like, please post. I love criticism, even if it's negative (as long as it remains constructive).
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
bmtc
Posted: Jun 29 2004, 11:33 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Unregistered









Ok, just a few areas that were unclear.


Supposing I have no lvl 0 lines (slots, or whatever you call them) left, and I want to channel a lvl 0 weave

I overchannel as per the books and take one point of subdual damage?


also, suppose I only have 2 lvl 3 lines, and I want to channel a lvl 3 weave

do I have to overchannel?
Top
bmtc
Posted: Jun 29 2004, 11:37 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Unregistered









one more note... I just want to point this out... you have probably already considered it.


One of my characters tends to channel a lot of low level weaves first, and then go on to higher level weaves.

Under these rules, it seems that he is better off channeling the high level weaves first and then going to the low level weaves.
Top
Zifnab
Posted: Jun 30 2004, 12:07 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Elder Scholar
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 334
Member No.: 125
Joined: 3-April 04



Yeah... this system is actually LESS flexible than the default one. Instead of using up lower slots to channel higher weaves, you end up using higher slots to channel lower weaves and then end up not being able to channel higher weaves at all.


--------------------
Playing: Jen Farthen
Personal Log

I use the word "totally" too much. I need to change it up and use a word that is different but has the same meaning. "Mitch, do you like submarine sandwhiches?" "All-encompassingly..."
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Zinuk
Posted: Jun 30 2004, 12:49 AM
Report PostEdit PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 51
Member No.: 166
Joined: 21-June 04



QUOTE
Supposing I have no lvl 0 lines (slots, or whatever you call them) left, and I want to channel a lvl 0 weave

I overchannel as per the books and take one point of subdual damage?

Exactly. If you have no weave points left on level 0 line, then you don't have any weave points left at all. The only way to channel is thus to use subdual HP. To use level 0 weave, you would have to overchannel as per the standard rules (overchanneling 0th level weaves when no slots are left) and it would cost you 1 subdual HP. This limits a little the number of level 0 weave you can cast.

QUOTE
also, suppose I only have 2 lvl 3 lines, and I want to channel a lvl 3 weave

do I have to overchannel?

No you wouldn't have to; it would cost you the remaining two level 3 weave points and one level 2 weave point.

QUOTE
one more note... I just want to point this out... you have probably already considered it.


One of my characters tends to channel a lot of low level weaves first, and then go on to higher level weaves.

Under these rules, it seems that he is better off channeling the high level weaves first and then going to the low level weaves.


That's right. If you cast many low level weaves, you may not be able to cast any high level weaves, because you don't have weave points of a high enough level left. So it is more advantageous to cast high level weaves first and then low level weaves.

QUOTE
Yeah... this system is actually LESS flexible than the default one. Instead of using up lower slots to channel higher weaves, you end up using higher slots to channel lower weaves and then end up not being able to channel higher weaves at all.

I wouldn't say it is less flexible. It is flexible differently. It all depends how you use your weaves. If you tend to use the low level weaves before the high level ones, then it will allow you to cast less weaves. But if you use the high level weaves first, it basically allows you to use the same number of weaves.

But, in any case, you can use more low level weaves, so you have an advantage.

The way I see things, it is more realistic than the default system, as it is normal that when you channel a lot of low level weaves, you get a little tired from channeling, and so it becomes more difficult (or even impossible if you have already channeled too much) to channel weaves that require great power.

It is also more realistic than the Slot Pool System as you shouldn't be allowed to overchannel when you have all your slot pool available. Overchanneling is drawing more power than you can safely handle. Why would you do such a thing if you don't have to, and have an advantage at doing it (allowing you to channel more), even though it could be dangerous? I would say that overchanneling tires you more and so should not allow you to cast weaves at a lower cost. It should only allow you to cast more weaves when you are out of slots.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but that's the way I see overchanneling.

Anyway, the irony is that when you solve a problem with a new system, you often introduce a new, but different, problem. I suppose chosing which system is best suited is a matter of taste (and of how you see the One Power works).

EDIT: maybe a way to solve the problem of not being able to channel your high level weaves could be to allow overchanneling at +4, +5, ..., but only for those weaves that you could cast when you have all your weave points left (so a level 1 wilder could not overchannel by +4 because the max level she can use is level 4, not level 5). Need to think about it.

This post has been edited by Zinuk on Jun 30 2004, 12:52 AM
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Jul 2 2004, 07:21 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Elder Scholar
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 140
Member No.: 74
Joined: 1-February 04



hmn, personaly I think its better jut to use weave points (based of off psionics power points) and just set a limit to not being able to use more weave points than your chanelling level, and not being able to overchanell unless its to use more weave points than your channeling level, or than you have left. example at level five you could only overchannell if it would cost seven weave points, or you only had four weave points left.
I think this solves the problem of overchanelling when it would be less than unsafe levels, and also the problem of balance between a first level weave and a 9th level weave. I personaly feel that a 9th level weave is much more powerfull than just nine times a first level weave, and the 17 weave point cost is indicative of such smile.gif

of course I'm also asuming the use of the generic channeler to deal with the unplesantries of the wilder in a weave point system ph34r.gif
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Zinuk
Posted: Jul 2 2004, 11:52 AM
Report PostEdit PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 51
Member No.: 166
Joined: 21-June 04



You could certainly do this. However, if you compare this to the Slot Pool System, you see the following differences/similarities:
  • maximum weave level you can cast. The same. Under the psionic rules, a weave costs twice as much so doubling the cost of weaves and limiting the number of poins you can use by channeler level is the same than maintaining the cost of weaves and limiting the number of poins by channeler level /2 (which is what the default system and the slot pool sysmte do);
  • number of weaves you can cast. The psionic rules allow you only to cast half the weaves you could under the Slot Pool system. This is because you basically have the same number of weave points in the two systems, but under the psionic rules, weaves costs twice as much to cast;
  • relative cost of weaves. The relative cost of weaves is different. Under the psionic rules, a level 9th level weave costs much more to cast than a level 1 weave. when you compare level 2+ weaves to level 9 weaves, the relative cost is about the same in the two system (the progression is linear in the two cases).

As I said above, everything is a matter of taste and of how you see channeling possibilities.

Are there others of you that use still a different weave point system for the cost of weaves than those spoken of in this thread?
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Mantyluoto
Posted: Jul 2 2004, 01:47 PM
Report PostQuote Post


New Monster: Hairy Dragon
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 454
Member No.: 17
Joined: 15-January 04



i just use the channelling rules in the WoT core book. both myself and my player agree that it fits the scene so i don't look for any other systems


--------------------
For Those About To Rock, We Salute You
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Talan
Posted: Jul 2 2004, 02:10 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 31
Member No.: 40
Joined: 20-January 04



I have also converted the Slot system to a Power Point system, using the same basic premise as you (i.e. 1 Power Point = 1 Weave level). It fits the escalating levels of the weaves IMO.

In order to prevent low-level channelers from using high-level weaves I made a new "stat": Power Limit, which is the number of Power Points you can safely handle (this is simply based on the level at which you gain access to higher level weaves. A 1st level Initiate has a Power Limit of 1, while a 5th level has a Power Limit of 3, etc etc).

If you want to use a weave of a level higher than your Power Limit you must Overchannel - but the weave cost increases (like Zinuk I think it is rather odd that Overchanneling is free - except when you fail).

The Initiate's Power Pool and Power Limit is the "same" as in the slot system (i.e. they will be able to cast the exact same number of weaves), but I have changed the Wilder.
In my system Wilder's have a higher Power Limit, but not as many Power Points as an Initiate (they are not as cautios about using the Power, enabling them to use higher level weaves faster, but they are not trained to hold as much Power).

Thats basically it (but I keep changing things, so there are a lot of small extra details).

Talan
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Jul 2 2004, 05:48 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Elder Scholar
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 140
Member No.: 74
Joined: 1-February 04



zinuk I think youve misunderstood something:
QUOTE
number of weaves you can cast. The psionic rules allow you only to cast half the weaves you could under the Slot Pool system. This is because you basically have the same number of weave points in the two systems, but under the psionic rules, weaves costs twice as much to cast;


you also get a hells of a lot more weave points than you get slots in the slot pool system, if anything you can cast more with the weave point system based off of a psion in expanded psionics handbook.
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Zinuk
Posted: Jul 2 2004, 08:59 PM
Report PostEdit PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 51
Member No.: 166
Joined: 21-June 04



QUOTE
you also get a hells of  a lot more weave points than you get slots in the slot pool system, if anything you can cast more with the weave point system based off of a psion in expanded psionics handbook.

Here are the number of weaves points you get under the two systems (supposing an Initiate and a psion, with no bonus weave points due to high stats):

CODE
level   Slot Pool   Psionic rules
 1           3             2
 2           4             3
 3           6             4
 4           9             7
 5          12            10
 6          17            15
 7          21            20
 8          28            27
 9          34            34
10          43            43
11          51            52
12          62            63
13          72            74
14          85            87
15          97           100
16         117           115
17         132           130
18         132           147
19         156           164
20         173           183

As you can see, the numbers are pretty close. Even if you take into account the bonus weaves for high stats, it doesn't really change anything. You nearly have the same number of weave points but weaves cost twice as much to cast, which mean you can cast less weaves.
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
drothgery
Posted: Jul 2 2004, 09:12 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Elder Scholar
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 143
Member No.: 25
Joined: 15-January 04



The XPH progression for psions is actually...

CODE

level  power points
1st      2
2nd      6
3rd      11
4th      17
5th      25
6th      35
7th      46
8th      58
9th      72
10th     88
11th     106
12th     126
13th     147
14th     170
15th     195
16th     221
17th     250
18th     280
19th     311
20th     343


This post has been edited by drothgery on Jul 2 2004, 09:13 PM


--------------------
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Zinuk
Posted: Jul 2 2004, 09:52 PM
Report PostEdit PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 51
Member No.: 166
Joined: 21-June 04



QUOTE
The XPH progression for psions is actually...

CODE

level  power points
1st      2
2nd      6
3rd      11
4th      17
5th      25
6th      35
7th      46
8th      58
9th      72
10th     88
11th     106
12th     126
13th     147
14th     170
15th     195
16th     221
17th     250
18th     280
19th     311
20th     343

You are correct. Sorry for that. This makes the psionic option for weave points completly viable.

My mistake comes from the fact that I had an older version of the psionic srd. You can still find this old version at:

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html

The file is the "Psionic classes" file. The new (and correct) version is on wizard's website:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Jul 3 2004, 05:15 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Elder Scholar
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 140
Member No.: 74
Joined: 1-February 04



no problemo, by the way is it just me, or do the SRD's (something from which wizards makes no money) actually have less typos than the books wizards sells? laugh.gif
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
drothgery
Posted: Jul 3 2004, 06:19 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Elder Scholar
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 143
Member No.: 25
Joined: 15-January 04



QUOTE (Kakita Aramoro @ Jul 2 2004, 07:15 PM)
no problemo, by the way is it just me, or do the SRD's (something from which wizards makes no money) actually have less typos than the books wizards sells? laugh.gif

In the long run, the SRDs inevitably have fewer errors. Errors in the SRDs can be fixed, after all.


--------------------
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Zinuk
Posted: Jul 3 2004, 10:12 AM
Report PostEdit PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 51
Member No.: 166
Joined: 21-June 04



This psionic problem being solved, is anyone else using another weave point system? Or do you just don't bother and use the default system?
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
bmtc
Posted: Jul 10 2004, 08:31 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Member No.: 169
Joined: 30-June 04



I use default. I don't think it mirrors the books perfectly, but I think it is closer and more balanced than any weavepool I have seen yet.... a pity...
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
1 Members: Zinuk

Topic Options Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll