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> Chimara Syndrome, allows the channling of both sides?
Niveus
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 03:15 AM
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Just a simple question to start a huge debate that will probably never be settled

One of the more unique genetic conditions is the "Chimera syndrome" which is when two separate eggs (non-identical twins) merge into one single egg giving them two separate DNA patterns but within a single individual.

If a male and a female egg merge into one egg could the egg grow into uber channler with both sides of the power and just to let you know they wouldn't necessarily be "shemales" rather they would have the outer appearance of one gender and some of the traits of the other I.e. facial hair etc... I figured it was an interesting possibility so I brought it up mind you I’m non a geneticist so I’m not completely sure of the particulars.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 05:49 AM
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Niveus, I'm not aware of any chimeric congenital disorders that occur as you describe. I have seen a lot of chromosomal disorders and genitalia development disorders though. You can for instance by genetically male XY, but lack androgen receptors in your cells. So you body never picks up the testosterone that you make. The testosterone builds up and is converted to estrogen. The individiual usually is tall (for a woman) and has large breasts but relatively small nipples. They generally lack pubic and axillary hair. They actually look like supermodels at times. Given this condition you would probably have a Halima type thing going. Looks like a beatiful woman but is genetically male so channels Saidin.

Or you could have a Klinefelter individual. This is caused from non-disjunction in the sex chromsomes of one parent. They would be XXY. So they have a bar body and a Y chromsome so technically, they are kind of both female and male. They would generally have a penis and breasts. So they are not going to come off as being a "normal" gendered person. However, not sure how this would effect channeling.

The problem with the disorder as you describe it is that eggs all carry one X chromosome. Sex is determined by the sperm, either carry X or Y. If you are refering to a fertilized embryo, then I guess that is possible. Still never heard of it, but I've hardly heard of everything. I'll try to remember to look that up and see if I run across anything.

Needless to say, it would be less likely to happen than the genetic disorders I describe above. And if it were to happen, that you would have a male and female embryo fuse (if it happens and it would survive) I'm pretty sure you would have some definite physical deformities to deal with aside from other health problems.

Sorry if this is more than you wanted, but hey, I study this stuff.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 06:29 AM
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you can also have a type of benign cancer that one of my firends has, PolyCcyctic Ovarian Syndrome, or PCOS. Basically, the cancer makes the woman unable to release eggs during her menstrual cycle, and instead suffers a massive build-up of testosterone. This causes the women to grow broad shoulders, extremely dens bone and tissue, gain muscle mass as a man would (in truth, often faster), and often have quite hairy chins. It also makes it neigh-impossible for the woman to have a child through natural means.

Oh and the testosterone levels for PCOS-diagnosed women? x3 that of a man. So in essence, women with this cancer are more men than most men!


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 01:37 PM
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QUOTE
chimera (chi·me·ra) (ki-me¢r[schwa]) [Gr. chimaira a mythological fire-spouting monster with a lion's head, goat's body, and serpent's tail]  an individual organism whose body contains cell populations derived from different zygotes, of the same or of different species; it may occur spontaneously, as in twins (blood group chimeras), or be produced artificially, as an organism that develops from combined portions of different embryos, or one in which tissues or cells of another organism have been introduced. Cf. mosaic.

heterologous chimera,  a chimera in which the foreign cells or tissues are derived from an organism of a different species.

homologous chimera,  a chimera in which the foreign cells or tissues are derived from an organism of the same species but of a different genotype.

isologous chimera,  a chimera in which the foreign cells or tissues are derived from a different organism of the same genotype, such as an identical twin.

radiation chimera,  an organism that survives with immunologic characteristics of host and donor after a bone marrow graft from an antigenically different donor, the host having first been subjected to sublethal whole-body irradiation so that there is reduced or no immune response to foreign cells by the donor.

chimerism (chi·mer·ism) (ki-m[emacr]r¢iz-[schwa]m)  the quality of being a chimera; in genetics, the presence in an individual of cells of different origin, as of blood cells derived from a dizygotic co-twin. Cf. mosaicism.


As can be seen in the bottom the phenomenon is most usually called genetic mosaicism in medical and genetics literature, and what Niveus is refering to is a homologous chimera. BTW that qoute was taken from Dorlands Medical Dictionary online from our friends at Merck.

From my trusty Stedman's Medical Dictionary:

QUOTE
mosaicism: Condition of being mosaic. (2) cellular m., a chimerism in which tissue contains cells from different zygotes; e.g. in humans involving erythrocytes.


There are various kinds such as chromosomal mosaicism where different cells can have different numbers of chromosomes due to abnormal divisions in embryogenesis, etc. But generally in humans chimerism occurs in erythrocytes so basically your blood cells and bone marrow cells.

So Niveus while the situation you describe is possible, one trait tends to be dominant over the other, plus what will count is the sex of the soul. Remember when the DO reincarnates a forsaken into a body of the opposite sex they still channel the power that they dealt with before.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 03:32 PM
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The reason that they usually refer to erythrocytes being chimeric in humans is because of bone marrow transplants, not because they developed that way. After the transplant the individual has genetically different cells, therefore he/she is a chimera in the cellular sense of the word.

Although used interchangibly at times, there is a difference between mosiacism and chimerism. Well sort of. You can be a mosaic individual and not be a chimeric individual. That deals with silencing of genes on one chromosome and not on another but for some reason you have some cells silence one copy and not the other. This is usually possible in individuals with 2 X chromosomes because one of the X chromosomes is completely silenced forming a barr body, so it is usually a woman or Klinefelter individual that can be a mosaic. There are a couple of examples of this in humans like having spots without sweat glands. The most apparent example of mosaism is calico cats.

I think I'm safe in saying that most true chimeras are artificially created. I'll quote from Stedman's too:

QUOTE
chimera
ki-mTrc^ 

1. the individual produced by grafting an embryonic part of one animal on to the embryo of another, either of the same or of another species.
2. an organism that has received a transplant of genetically and immunologically different tissue, such as bone marrow.
3. dizygotic twins that have immunologically distinct types of erythrocytes.
4. sometimes used as a synonym for mosaic. Chimeric antibodies may have the Fab fragment from one species fused with the Fc fragment from another.
5. a protein fusion in which two different proteins, usually from different species, are linked via peptide bonds; usually genetically engineered.
6. any macromolecule fusion formed by two or more macromolecules from different species or from different genes.

Origin
[L. Chimaera, G. Chimaira, mythic monster, (lit. a she-goat)]


This post has been edited by Sharn Penndroen on Oct 29 2004, 03:33 PM


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Niveus
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 04:05 PM
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lol your are most likely correct but i remeber reading an article about a rapist who's blood DNA didn't match his semans DNA and it was not until they checked his records and found out that his brother died when doctors tested his blood and saqt aht he would make a good donor for his sister but when they tried to use his bone marrow as his genetic material was different etc, his sister died this was the only reason he was cuaght had he not been a bone marrow donar he would have esacaped detection.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 08:46 PM
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Niv... lol... i think that was an episode of CSI *grin* smile.gif

As far as game mechanics and RJ's world though...i agree that the soul is what would matter and there would only be one of those.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 10:34 PM
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Unless you're a Slayer. *Winks at Llewin*


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 11:13 PM
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I know Sharn, check out number 3 of your Stedman's quote, which refers to dizygotic twins, that is the instance that I'm talking about, it isn't necessarily where the sperately fertilized eggs fuse together, but there is some natural swapping that can occur creating a "chimera" usually it results in two distinct populations of red blood cells and lymphocytes.

And yea, I know that was an episode of CSI Niveus (I watched it) althought it is possible the inspiration was pulled from medical literature. I'll take a look through PubMed and see if I can find anything.

This post has been edited by Entropic_existence on Oct 29 2004, 11:34 PM


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 11:36 PM
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I found an article in the Journal of forensic medicine that may be where they took it from, although it wasn't as extreme as in the CSI episode, he had distinct populations of blood cells (like I mentioned above) based on the fact that he was a dizygotic twin. No bone marrow transfusions were ever performed.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 02:21 AM
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QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Oct 29 2004, 08:34 PM)
Unless you're a Slayer. *Winks at Llewin*

Magus: :-p~~~~~~~~~~~

lol...

waaaait....

that makes slayer a spiritual chimera....

perhaps we should use THAT for the name of the PrC/template... since slayer is just the name the wolves gave him....

lets see...something appropriately old tongue sounding...


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 04:43 AM
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rofl I like it


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MagusRogue
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 06:29 AM
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Chimera would be an appropriete term. Chimera is also associated with Dreams, which is what Slayer is most known for being able to use.


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Niveus
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 07:04 AM
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there was a CSI episode?!?!? cool nah i rember reading about it ages ago mind you CSi is pretty good at using real data so who knows

however i am glad that this is cuasing a debate smile.gif


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 04:26 PM
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You're more patient than I am with search engines, EE. smile.gif I searched Pub Med for about 2 minutes and got fed up reading about crap that didn't have anything to do with what I was looking for. Truth be told, I vaguely remember hearing something about that in biochem lecture one day.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 04:57 PM
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just cuz I'm bored and feel like being annoying, here's what Webster has to say about Chimera:

chi·me·ra also chi·mae·ra Pronunciation Key (k-mīr, k-)
n.

1.
a) An organism, organ, or part consisting of two or more tissues of different genetic composition, produced as a result of organ transplant, grafting, or genetic engineering.
cool.gif A substance, such as an antibody, created from the proteins or genes or two different species.
2. An individual who has received a transplant of genetically and immunologically different tissue.
3. A fanciful mental illusion or fabrication.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 05:26 PM
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Heh, I completely understand Sharn, I'm pretty sure we have a pretty similar educational background in this (I'm in my last year of my Biology-Chemistry Honours Programme and hopefully moving onto a Masters in Immunology). And yea it took some fiddling with PubMed to get much relevant.

For the most part the term is reserved for chimeric proteins, etc or for things that are the result of transfusions and transplants.

To go back to Niveus' original question...it wouldn't happen as cool as it might be. Remember that the soul plays a large part in Jordan's universe as well as the physical.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 05:34 PM
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unless a slayer is made of a male and a female Aes Sedai. Even then you won't be able to channel both, as only one of the two may be dominant at once.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Oct 31 2004, 12:57 AM
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*nod* yea that would be the only case I could see Magus, since the souls would need to be melded as well. I actually like that concept.....if the Dark One can do it with two regular people I don;t see them being able to channel being a problem.

Very cool idea...... *inserts into his campaign*


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 31 2004, 03:43 AM
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True, although I'm not sure that it would be easy to convince two channelers to do this. Although we aren't sure about what all benefits come from being a Slayer, but certainly some of those that we have seen can be duplicated with the One Power. If it is immortality that you seek, you would be better off trying to get it as a Dreadlord if you were a channeler. And you could do that and not have to lose your body or share yours with someone else.

I think it is definitely possible to do the channeler Slayer, but I'm just saying this is why a channeler wouldn't want to do it. You know? Definite possibilities for a villan though.


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