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> Alternate Wilder rules, wilders without a Class
LuciusT
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 01:13 AM
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Over on the errata thread droghtery wrote:
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Unofficially, I'm trying hard to discourage my PCs from doing it, and if I ever run a tabletop WoT game (or even a second online game), I'm going to go with the rules I wish WotC had implemented -- the Wilder class won't exist, and there will be a feat you can take to get a block and learn a common weave/level untaught (you'll have to take this feat to be a channeler outside of a tradition).


I like that rule and I've considered using it myself. However, I have one concern.

How would you explain channelers like Logain (or any other false Dragon channeler) who, by all indications, could channel with a great deal of skill and power (read: could cast high level weaves) without ever receiving any training (read: levels of Initiate)? For that matter Nyneave appears to exhibit abilities from the very start that indicate she could cast Heal at a reasonable level?

Most of the rules I have seen for an "untrained channeler" feat allow only 0 level weave slots or "overchanneling" for 0, 1st or 2nd level weaves... which seems reasonable from a game balance PoV but does not, IMO, model these stronger or more experienced untrained channelers like Logain or Nyneave.
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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 01:30 AM
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Nynaeve, being much older than the rest of the two rivers Ta'veren, has had time to develop her talent. So she would be a higher level Wilder than Egwene or even Rand. Logain would be harder to explain, or even Mazrim Taim. No matter what you would have to come up with some sort of class that would allow a channeler to channel without taking an initiate class level. If you didn't have Wilder than everyone would have to be an initiate, which would mean that they would have to be trained as either an Aes Sedai, a Windfinder, a Wise One, or an Asha'man. And without the Wilder class how would the Knitting circle come to be? Even though the majority of the Circle have had even a minute amount of training at the White Tower. Or the Ath'an Miere, they start as Wilders, then they're found & they become initiates for the Windfinder tradition. (Correct me if I'm wrong. Especially you Manty & Magus.) Anywho, The Wilder class may be totally Flunked up, but it's still a necessary class for any campaign that involves TWoT. It's basically like having bread without the butter.


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drothgery
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 04:07 AM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ Feb 4 2004, 01:13 AM)
How would you explain channelers like Logain (or any other false Dragon channeler) who, by all indications, could channel with a great deal of skill and power (read: could cast high level weaves) without ever receiving any training (read: levels of Initiate)? For that matter Nyneave appears to exhibit abilities from the very start that indicate she could cast Heal at a reasonable level?

Well, what about the Initiate implies the presense of a tradition? A large number of weaves to start with, and the implied support of a tradition, and a mentor. That's about it.

So I'd say our base channeling class would be almost identical to the initiate, except that you'd choose at first level to either get 1) four starting weaves, an additional one weave per channeler level, and a block (and a lot more freedom to act) or 2) eight starting weaves and a mentor (who will probably teach you at least two weaves per level). Oh, and we'll make Wisdom the only channeling stat for everybody.


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE (drothgery @ Feb 4 2004, 04:07 AM)
So I'd say our base channeling class would be almost identical to the initiate, except that you'd choose at first level to either get 1) four starting weaves, an additional one weave per channeler level, and a block (and a lot more freedom to act) or 2) eight starting weaves and a mentor (who will probably teach you at least two weaves per level). Oh, and we'll make Wisdom the only channeling stat for everybody.

Devils advocate hat on...

So because the wilder class shouldn't exist, we do away with it and replace it partly with a feat and partly with a universal "channeler" class that serves the function of both trained and untrained-but-powerful channeler.

So why do we need the feat?

Doesn't making untrained-but-powerful channelers take a channeling class weaken the arguement that the wilder class shouldn't exist?
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Jacob_Stroh
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 03:00 PM
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I agree wit luciust's statment.

you need to have a wilder core class to explain logain rand and nyn.

however you dont have to do away withe the feat idea. you could use a feats for people who want to mulitclass into wilder from a nonchaneling class, or for characters who just want to add some spice to thier lives.



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drothgery
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ Feb 4 2004, 02:47 PM)
So because the wilder class shouldn't exist, we do away with it and replace it partly with a feat and partly with a universal "channeler" class that serves the function of both trained and untrained-but-powerful channeler.

So why do we need the feat?

Doesn't making untrained-but-powerful channelers take a channeling class weaken the arguement that the wilder class shouldn't exist?

We don't, I think. I'm kind of refining things as I go along here. Sorry.

I don't like the wilder because it gives significant, non-roleplaying advantages to being an untrained channeler (in the long run, the initiate is still the better class, especially if the GM has NPCs treat wilders like Jordan does), because it's not entirely clear what the intent of the class is (it's pretty strongly implied that learning under guidance=initiate and learning on your own=wilder, rather than sparker=wilder and learner=initiate, given that many prominent sparkers from the books were written up as initiates, but when none of the book NPCs were written up as initiate/wilders, and it explicitly states that you can go wilder/Aes Sedai, it weakens that), and because it multiclasses badly with initiate.


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 03:34 PM
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We don't, I think. I'm kind of refining things as I go along here. Sorry.


That's rather the point. smile.gif You make an assertion. I challenge it. You refine your ideas and in the end we have a stronger position.

QUOTE
I don't like the wilder because it gives significant, non-roleplaying advantages to being an untrained channeler (in the long run, the initiate is still the better class, especially if the GM has NPCs treat wilders like Jordan does), because it's not entirely clear what the intent of the class is (it's pretty strongly implied that learning under guidance=initiate and learning on your own=wilder, rather than sparker=wilder and learner=initiate, given that many prominent sparkers from the books were written up as initiates, but when none of the book NPCs were written up as initiate/wilders, and it explicitly states that you can go wilder/Aes Sedai, it weakens that), and because it multiclasses badly with initiate.


On that basis I will conceed that the Wilder class as written is wrong, as are the character writeups and any number of related rules. Does that necessarily mean that some different Wilder class is not appropriate?
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drothgery
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ Feb 4 2004, 03:34 PM)
On that basis I will conceed that the Wilder class as written is wrong, as are the character writeups and any number of related rules. Does that necessarily mean that some different Wilder class is not appropriate?

A wilder class designed so that it multiclasses well with initiate (instead of being a power-gamer's dream, as per the official rules, or insanely underpowered, like a D&D wizard/cleric) would be an okay class. But I suspect the differences between such a class and an initiate would be so minimal that it would be easier to represent them both as paths within the same class.


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (drothgery @ Feb 4 2004, 05:00 PM)
A wilder class designed so that it multiclasses well with initiate (instead of being a power-gamer's dream, as per the official rules, or insanely underpowered, like a D&D wizard/cleric) would be an okay class. But I suspect the differences between such a class and an initiate would be so minimal that it would be easier to represent them both as paths within the same class.

My thought would be to have all channeling classes use the same weaves per day table, counting their total level in channeling classes as their level for purposes of that table. Give them the same prime channeling ability score (Wis) and secondary channeling ability score (Cha), so no clashes there.

My thought on differences that might seperate a "Wilder" class from an Initiate class would be primarily the aquisition of weaves, starting weapons/armor proficiencies and class skills.
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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 06:04 PM
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Using the same Weaves per day table would be alot easier, but the problem is, which one do you use. & in response to Drothgrery's post, some "sparkers" are caught before puberty & taken to the tradition. If they're not found then they become wilders not initiates. That's why Nynaeve & Egwene started as Wilders and not initiates, they went through puberty & started having the mishaps with the power before Moraine found them. So basically the only difference between wilder's & initiates is that wilders & some initiates have the spark born in them, & some of the initiates have to be trained to use the power instead of it happening anyways. so basically, to reiterate my point yet again, no matter what a wilder WILL channel, and if they're found before they reach the age that they begin to channel unexpectedly, they're initiates.


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (Blaeric Fen @ Feb 4 2004, 06:04 PM)
Using the same Weaves per day table would be alot easier, but the problem is, which one do you use.

I'd use Table 3-5: Initiate Weaves.
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 06:48 PM
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This, to me, sounds a lot like a sorcerer versus wizard-type debate. Which class is better? Do you really need a sorcerer (natural spellcaster) when you have a wizard (trained spellcaster)? I think it's mainly about the philosophies and angles the spellcasters take that make them both valid spellcasters.
I think the wilder is a valid class. I think that one MAJOR advantage the wilder has, if played right, is a lack of access to a mentor to teach her weaves. Where's she gonna learn them? An initiate has mentors, an organization, and can sometimes be surrounded by the One Power. Plus, the Wilder has to burn a feat on her block, and then gets less feats than the initiate on top of that!
In rewriting the wilder class (a worthy cause IMO), keep in mind (and I don't say this because I think you don't know it) that a wilder was born with the ability, able to channel it naturally, while an initiate was born with the spark that had to be honed and trained. Know what I mean?


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TwangCat
Posted: Feb 5 2004, 11:00 PM
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Perhaps it should be noted that Nyneve was chosen as wisdom because she could 'listen to the wind' and her predecessor knew that. Perhaps unconcious learning of weaves would help explain what is going on.
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drothgery
Posted: Feb 5 2004, 11:16 PM
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QUOTE (Two Rivers Wolfbrother @ Feb 4 2004, 10:48 AM)
that a wilder was born with the ability, able to channel it naturally, while an initiate was born with the spark that had to be honed and trained. Know what I mean?

You've just clearly illustrated the problem with the wilder v. initiate dichotomy. If a wilder is anyone born with the spark, then Egwene, Elayne, Moiraine, and Aviendha should certainly be wilders. If a wilder is someone who's teaching herself to channel, then Sumeko of the Kin advanced as wilder after she left the Tower (where she had gone far enough to fail her test for the shawl), whether she was born with the spark or not.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 5 2004, 11:30 PM
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See, how i see Wilder vs Initiate is this:

An initiate is one found by the tower, who has the ability to channel. It doesn't matter whether they would have learned on their own or not. They were taught how to open to the One Power, and learned their abilities in a strict traditional format.

A wilder, on the other hand, has been channeling since adolescence, pretty much. Instead of following a strict traditional regime of monitored and controlled advancement, the wilder leaps through the power. Instead of an intellectual and learned advancement, they grow through experience and experimentation. Even when they are trained by the tower, a wilder still runs on pure gut instinct.

Thus it's nor a Born with vs Brought Out arguement. It's an Intellectual Casting vs Instinctive Casting. One's more careful, following patterns taught by a master, while the other goes on the fly of things, experimenting and pushing themselves without often realizing it.

This is why in my games i won't allow Initiate/Wilder multiclassing. What you started out learning will forever flavor your abilities. Even when Nynaeve earns the shawl and breaks her block, she's still casting from pure instinct. Egwene and Elayne, on the other hand, would have channeled on their own but they were found by the Tower first, and were taught the "proper" way of channeling, and thus will always be Initiates, even when they figure things out on their own.

That's my two cents on the debate. The classes personally are fine as is, though i did add bonus talents and the ability to embrace the one power faster as class features.


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Targul
Posted: Feb 5 2004, 11:33 PM
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I think it would be easiest if you represented the spark with a feat that maybe gives a small bonus to your weaves, to represent the natural strength that is inherent to tohse born with the talent.

Then we could use a Wilder class to represent those that learn on their own with no one to guide them through the processes. Over coming their block, or cast out from the tower, basically those that must fumble around in the dark with their abilities, who learn mostly through trial and error.


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drothgery
Posted: Feb 5 2004, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (Targul @ Feb 5 2004, 03:33 PM)
I think it would be easiest if you represented the spark with a feat that maybe gives a small bonus to your weaves, to represent the natural strength that is inherent to tohse born with the talent.

As soon as you can explain how that can exist when the woman with the most potential in Egwene's camp (Sharina Melloy, a grandmother who's potentially stronger than Nynaeve) was not born with the spark, get back to that idea.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 5 2004, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (Targul @ Feb 5 2004, 06:33 PM)
I think it would be easiest if you represented the spark with a feat that maybe gives a small bonus to your weaves, to represent the natural strength that is inherent to tohse born with the talent.

Then we could use a Wilder class to represent those that learn on their own with no one to guide them through the processes. Over coming their block, or cast out from the tower, basically those that must fumble around in the dark with their abilities, who learn mostly through trial and error.

one step ahead of you, Tarqul.

Channeler Prodigy [Background]
While even wilders and some initiates are technically born with the spark, you have an unnatural grip with casting weaves, far beyond your years.
Backgrounds: All
Benefit: For the purpose of determining bonus weaves and the saving throw DC’s of weaves you cast, treat your primary channeling ability score (Intelligence for initiates, Wisdom for wilders) as 2 points higher than its actual value. If you have more than one channeler class, the bonus applies only to one of those classes. You may also start channeling even before you
Special: You may only take this feat as a 1st-level character. You may even take this feat with no channeling classes; apply this feat to the first channeling class you gain levels in. You may not purchase this feat and Failed Novice for the same character.


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Feb 9 2004, 07:35 AM
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Magus.....
You may also start chanelling even before you.... what?
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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 9 2004, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE (Kakita Aramoro @ Feb 8 2004, 08:35 PM)
Magus.....
You may also start chanelling even before you.... what?

crap, that got cut out.

Basically, it means there's a dm's call. If you don't have channeler levels yet, the DM may choose to have odd things happen, similar to Nynaeve's listening to the winds.


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