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> Warder Bond
Niveus
Posted: Jul 6 2004, 11:39 AM
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in my quests i made 3 rules

1) every time on of the channlers in a bond gains level they make a will save vs the other channlers in a bond whoever has the highest gains control of the bond and a check is also made whenever the channler needs to make a will save for madness

2) Balance scale the rating every time a madness rating is rolled it is divided equally among all the Warders and Aes Sedai if the number will not divide evenly 1 point goes to the one in control of the bond and all other memebers make a will save and the madness goes from lowest to highest untill all are gone.

3) whoever is being compelld gains a +1 vs compulsion for every 5 points of madness on the one in control of the bond



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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 12 2004, 07:26 PM
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I have to agree with Freya on this one.  If the standard Bond Warder weave inherently includes a compulsion element that can be used, but isn't used often, by most Aes Sedai, then it makes sense that the Asha'man bond is the same as the standard Aes Sedai bond, which means that the entire question goes right back to the original conclusion:  RJ was not specific when about why Rand could not be compelled through the bond, so draw your own conclusions and RAFO.

To add an element to this debate, here is a quote from the end of CoT, Chap 30, p 811 (paperback edition):

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“The Warder bond could be modified slightly[.] As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweaking, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily.”

So it is possible that the wife bond was designed without the compulsion element but that, afterwards, some Asha'man figured out how to put the compulsion element in it, not changing the need to perform the kiss to weave the bond: if Aes Sedai figured out how to put the compulsion element in it, there is no reason why Asha'man shouldn't be able to figure it out too.

This, of course, still doesn't explain why Rand can't be controlled by the compulsion aspect of the bond.

I'd like also to mention that RJ speaks of the bond in the "Question of week" available here. For easy reference, here is what he says:

QUOTE
Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?


Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

It has also been used to get rid of a Warder who proved to be unsuitable in some way, such as a man who is discovered to be a thief or who takes reckless chances, a fighter of duels who won't stop without the bond being used to force him. No sister is going to want a Warder who will risk getting himself killed, with all the attendant results to her, for no very good reason.

Although use of the bond in that way (controlling) was not unknown in the past, it came to be regarded as a form of Compulsion to use it so except in the slightest forms. Besides, using the bond to control a Warder all the time is a lot of work. An Aes Sedai wants somebody who can watch her back and keep it safe, not somebody she has to work on all the time. (Which is one of the reasons Aes Sedai stopped bonding men against their will. Not ethical concerns or ethical growth, I'm afraid; it was just not very practical really) Better simply to release the fellow who can't measure up and find another who will.

By the by, releasing a Warder except for cause (the Aes Sedai's imminent death, his own unsuitability) or because he has asked for release is something that JUST IS NOT DONE! It would gain the sister considerable opprobrium from other sisters. A sister certainly would be looked at askance if she released a Warder who was dying, for example, just to avoid the effects on her of his death. When an Aes Sedai bonds a Warder, she is expected to buy in for the full ride. For that matter, releasing him for unsuitability is considered to reflect on the sister's judgement. She should have known better about him from the start.
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shaun
Posted: Jul 13 2004, 03:01 PM
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None of you even came close to as why Alanna couldn't compell Rand. He was holding on to the source when she tried, once that didn't work she didn't think of trying again as she thought it wouldn't work. I can't remember the exact quote, partly because I am no good at remembering names, but when one of the male forsaken traveled to see the one that uses compulsion on all her servants he held onto sadin so she couldn't use compulsion on him. (possibly Bk 6, not sure though) he said something like
QUOTE
she used compulsion so often like a hammer that people often forgot she could weild the subtler forms as well. That was why he held onto sadin; those tricks didn't work on someone wrapped in the source.

I am not sure of the exact wording of the first bit but it gives the gist of it, though the bold part I am pretty sure is word perfect. Just don't let any PC's know (or if you are one forget it) just whenever a PC tries to use compulsion on annother channeler make sure that they know you are making a secret dice roll (you could even chek the two characters caracter sheets if you realy want to keep them guessing), ignore the result of the roll you made and work it out on weather the recipiant is embrasing the source or not.

By the way I think the proposed way to bond the Asha'man was to justremove any of the sharing emotions, bar effects if they die on you etc. elements so that all that was left was posibly sencing their direction/distance and the ability to compell them easily
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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 13 2004, 04:21 PM
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Well, the mystery is solved then. Male channeler/warders can be compelled unless they are holding Saidin. Likewise, Female channelers can't be compelled through the bond if they are holding Saidar, but since all of the Aes Sedai who were bonded were ordered (and compelled) not to channel, except under specific circumstances, so since those circumstances are controlled, every order given through the compulsion aspect is done while the women are not holding Saidar. Thus, logically, both bonds are identical, but they appear to be different to all people who have been involved in those bonds.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jul 13 2004, 06:55 PM
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Shaun, if you didn't notice, The Great Skwid gave a link to the FAQ. If you read that FAQ it presents what you said as a theory. It sites, Sammel (I think) when he visites Grendal. He talks about her being good with Compulsion and he continues holding Saidin. He says that it would afford him some protection. That is his belief and it is probably accurate being that he is from the Age of Legends. Here is the actual quote you were thinking about and the extra bit from the FAQ that Skwid gave us.

QUOTE
Is there any defense against Compulsion? Yes, but it seems to require that the would-be victim be able to channel. The obvious defense is to not get Compelled in the first place, by cutting the weave before it falls into place. Sammael appears to believe that holding the Source provides some degree of protection all by itself:

    [Graendal] used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with a great delicacy, twisting a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.

    [Sammael] let the gateway vanish but held on to saidin; those tricks did not work on someone wrapped in the Source.
    [LOC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 132]


As I've said before, I do not believe this to be a sufficient explaination as to why Rand is not compelled by Alana. It probably has a lot to do with ta'vern. Rand is not always holding Saidin. We don't know that Alana has tried to compell him again, but it is probable that she tried more than just once.

This quote was also talking about Compulsion in general and not just that element of the Warder Bond.

Keep in mind that theories are only theories, until RJ makes them fact.

This post has been edited by Sharn Penndroen on Jul 13 2004, 07:00 PM


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Zarozynia
Posted: Jul 13 2004, 09:25 PM
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well, my male channeler is officially bonded, he totally walked into that one. laugh.gif It was not at all of his own choice, a very brownish yellow ajah member wanted to "study" him to understand his maddness and asked if she could "make his madness better" theorizing (to herself) that the bond would probably help with that, and he said yes. blink.gif I guess the phrase "never trush an aes sedai" must not have sunk in that much, yet.

Basically, what I'm looking at right now is that its a normal warder bond, with a few added benefits, for him anyways. Each time that he levels, I'm going to split his madness rating between the two of them, as it seems like she would go mad as well, and her sanity (in the beginning) might keep him from going mad, at least for a little while. I'm allowing for her to try to control him, but with his high will save, it wil be fairly difficult (I assume). Although if he keeps rolling 1s when he has to roll for something like this, she'll have him eating out of her hand in no time! biggrin.gif

I love the "truthfullness" of the Aes Sedai, really I do!


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 13 2004, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Sharn)
As I've said before, I do not believe this to be a sufficient explaination as to why Rand is not compelled by Alana. It probably has a lot to do with ta'vern. Rand is not always holding Saidin. We don't know that Alana has tried to compell him again, but it is probable that she tried more than just once.


Maybe it doesn't explain everything about Rand, but it's the best explanation so far. At least, it solves the Asha'man warder bond matter. As for ta'veren coming in, someone will have to ask RJ, hoping the answer is not RAFO sad.gif

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QUOTE (Freya)
*eck*

I have always disagreed with the theory that the 'extra bit' Logain mentions (when he Bonds Torvine) is refering to something extra he weaved specifically to Bond channelers (as opposed to non-channelers).

Logain grabbed Torvine and kissed her. He then apologized for the 'extra bit' saying that was 'how they were taught' to do it. He was apologizing for the KISS, not the compulsion-aspect of the Bond!

Think about it. We know the Asha'man Bond was created by a Asha'man that wanted to keep updated of his wife's condition while he was away. It makes loads of sense that such a Bond was developed with a kiss as the physical motion. So, Asha'man JoeBob develops this wife-bond and teaches others how to use it. The kiss is an integral part of the weave, just like the Aes Sedai throwing gestures when weaving a fireball. If the AS do not gesture like they are throwing the fireball, the weave does not work...it's not hard to assume the same is true for the kiss in the wife-bond weave.


In fact, if you read carefully what is said, you come to the FAQ's conclusion. Here's the exact quote (TPoD, Chap 26, pp 586-587 paperback):

QUOTE
Dimly she heard the man talking. “Easy, you lump-eared sack of coal! Calm down, sister. I’m not going to—Easy, you spavined mule! Light! My apologies, sister, but this is how we learn to do it.” And then he kissed her.
She had only a heartbeat to realize his lips were touching hers, then sight vanished, and warmth flooded through her.
More than warmth. She was melted honey inside, bubbling honey, rushing toward the boil. She was a harpstring, vibrating faster and faster, vibrating to invisibility and faster still. She was a thin crystal vase, quivering on the brink of shattering. The harpstring broke; the vase shattered.
“Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!”
At first, she did not realize that sound had come from her gaping mouth. For a moment, she could not think coherently. Panting, she stared up at the male face above her, wondering who it belonged to. Yes. The tall man. The man who could—
“I could have done without the extra bit,” he sighed, patting the horse’s neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, “yet I suppose it is necessary. You’re hardly a wife. Be calm. Don’t try to escape, don’t attack anyone in a black coat, and don’t touch the Source unless I give you permission. Now, what’s your name?”


It makes it pretty clear that there are 2 versions: the one for the wifes and the one with the "extra bit" i.e. one with and one without compulsion, just like the Aes Sedai version of the bond (see my previous post).

This is confirmed in an interview available at Dragonmount:

QUOTE
Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.


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QUOTE (shaun)
By the way I think the proposed way to bond the Asha'man was to justremove any of the sharing emotions, bar effects if they die on you etc. elements so that all that was left was posibly sencing their direction/distance and the ability to compell them easily


In fact, the quote I gave in my last post is from Maigan Sedai, and, just after Egwene truns down this proposion (permanent compulsion in the bond), she suggests the following (CoT, Chap , p 811 paperback):

QUOTE
“If the bond can be changed in one way, [...] it should be possible to change it in others. There might be a way to remove the sharing, perhaps some of the awareness. Then perhaps the madness would not be a problem. It would be a different sort of bond, not like the Warder bond at all. I’m certain everyone will agree it wouldn’t be like having a Warder, really. Any sister could bond whatever number of Asha’man was necessary.”


Contrary to the permanent compulsion aspect of the bond, she is not sure, as she uses a lot of "should" and "would": she doesn't know if what she is suggesting is really possible. It is just pure speculation.
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