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The Dread Morg |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 06:02
AM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 8 Joined: 17-December 03 ![]() |
Ok, I'm arguing (debating perhaps is a better term)
with a friend over the Latent Feats. He says that they should come with
some perks so that players will actually spend the feat slot on the
prerequisite feat, otherwise no one will want to ever play a
Dreamer. I of course, say no. The Latent Feat Prereq keeps the power rare, the way it should be. He of course, says it'll be too rare. Round and round we go. So, what sort of experience have you all had with the Latent feats? Does anyone play them, or does *everyone* play them? ![]() -------------------- "The Right To Rule
is Yours by Birth; All You Need Do is Try and Claim It." Bloodsilver.com |
KSBsnowowl |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 11:53
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 125 Member No.: 35 Joined: 17-January 04 ![]() |
I my opinion, the extra feat you have to invest is
worth it. The insane advantage you have for communication and spying
capabilities with the dreaming abilities is well worth two feats. Heck,
the only time I've ever actually gotten any of the lost ability feat for a
character was Treesinging for an Ogier; I wouldn't say Treesinging is
overly powerful, but I'll still pay two feats for it without
question. Fear not, you are in the right. (and I agree with your reasoning too) -------------------- Patterns in the Weave: Aermon, son of
Hamiel, son of Kamm, Male Ogier Wanderer 1 This Ogier left on a Grove-tour with his Greatfather, and he hopes to replenish the decimated Groves. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Duty is as heavy as a mountain, death as light as a feather. |
Sharn Penndroen |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 12:30
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![]() Lemming Extraordinare ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 239 Member No.: 15 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
You are right. Those Feats are more powerful than a
standard Feat so you are basically paying for it with two Feat slots.
Plus, like you said, it is supposed to be rare. How rare? Very. I mean of
all the countless people in the WoT series, how many are Sniffers? Does
your friend realize how awesome some of these abilities are? Dreamers can
make awesome scouts. Sniffers can track most any of your baddies
regardless of terrain. Viewing, can you say Darkfriend detector? Yeah.
Don't worry, dude, you have the right of it.
-------------------- I like swords. |
drothgery |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 02:14
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 126 Member No.: 25 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
FWIW, there are six or seven known living
dreamwalkers (Amys, Bair, Melanie, Egwene, Moghedien, Cynfear, and maybe
Moridishy), at least two known sniffers (Hurin and another in Fal Moran),
at least three known Wolfbrothers (Perrin, Elyas, and the one who Perrin
ran into on the way to Tear and who had lost his humanity), and only one
known Viewer as of the most recent novel.
-------------------- |
Talan |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 02:24
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 22 Member No.: 40 Joined: 20-January 04 ![]() |
I think it depends on the sort of game you are
playing. I have given my players a free - yes free - ability, chosen by me
(one is a Wolfbrother, one is a Sniffer and another has the Old Blood). I
think these abilities are cool and is something thats special for the WoT
- but i would like my characters do do other things as well. Two of the
Players haven't read the Novels, so it was very fun to introduce their
Character's ability, without them realizing why they remembered things
that happened 1000 years ago or why this or that room smelled so bad ![]() In my campaign the Characters are very special (minor Ta'veren), so they should be compared to the Two Rivers crew, where special abilities aren't exactly rare (Ta'veren, Dreamer, Wolfbrother, Old Blood). Talan |
Zarozynia |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 02:41
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![]() Seer of Darkness ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 201 Member No.: 131 Joined: 10-April 04 ![]() |
I think that I agree with both side of this
arguement. ![]() ![]() -------------------- Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing
experiment in writing/illustration/mythology Photographia Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog |
tam al'moff |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 03:02
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 37 Member No.: 52 Joined: 22-January 04 ![]() |
I like the idea that latent talents could be given for free. Perhaps it could be part of the character creation process. A roll for a latent talent that is then kept by the DM and slowly revealed / hinted to the player. -------------------- If it isn't broke don't fix it. | ||
The Dread Morg |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 05:10
PM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 8 Joined: 17-December 03 ![]() |
THanks for the responses everyone. The point my
friend in crime is trying to make is that by having a prereq feat that
doesn't offer anything in itself, means that as a DM, you'll rarely get a
chance to run a character with that power. In essence, he says "What's the point?" Everyone will take blind fighting or Improved Initiative instead of a "useless" feat that offers nothing now. I can see his point in that respect, but I think the real solution is to offer it (with the leatent feat requisite) to keep those "power mongers" from taking Dreamwalking and Blindfighting. IMO, if your camapign requires it, then you could give out the latent feat for free, and thus be able to run some powerful folks and thereby open a few new doors to explore. If not, then I'd keep the latent feat requisite to keep the powers rare. If a player wants to spend a feat slot and wait for 3 levels (while the rest of the party gets fancy super powers), then they deserve the spotlight and more power to them. (BTW, I like the way you handled the maifestations of these powers Zarozynia. I think I would do something similiar. -------------------- "The Right To Rule
is Yours by Birth; All You Need Do is Try and Claim It." Bloodsilver.com |
The Great Gray Skwid |
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 58 Member No.: 39 Joined: 19-January 04 ![]() |
I feel like a character that has taken the Latent
Feat should get occasional hints to the full-blown feat...but hints that
rarely give an in-game advantage. Latent Sniffers find foul odors associated occasionally with NPCs who are red herrings to the main story. Dreamers have a dream that doesn't really help them, but maybe is vaguely interesting to the character. Wolfbrothers have strange encounters with wolves. There's only one Latent feat that I feel should have direct, repeatable advantages, for the simple reason that it's done that way in the book. You'll know what it is soon enough. ![]() -------------------- Evan "Skwid" Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends! |
Sharn Penndroen |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 06:09
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![]() Lemming Extraordinare ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 239 Member No.: 15 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Sure there is the whole ta'vern route. I've done that
myself, and the RPG has a sidebar about it. But I don't let a player tell
me, "I'm going to be a ta'vern and I'll be taking this feat for free." I
just say, "You are playing a minor ta'vern. You have this Feat because of
it." Basically what Talan said. -------------------- I like swords. |
LuciusT |
Posted: Apr 13 2004, 07:41
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 123 Member No.: 19 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Actually, I think that is the point. If, as a player, you are trying to maximize your characters abilities at every step (and I don't mean that it in "bad" way) than you probably don't want to take Talents. OTOH if, as a player, you are interested in exploring one of the Talents, at the cost of being a little less effective in short term than the you will take the Latent Talent feat. It's a little like having a player who puts ranks into Craft (cooking). As things go, there are definately skills to put ranks in that would be more "useful" in an adventure... but plain dry rations, day in and day out, get a little old after a while. ![]() | ||
Guest |
Posted: Apr 14 2004, 01:19
AM
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Unregistered ![]() |
when my characters did this I did hte same thing as
Skwid, they had random hints that weren't usefull in game but were fun and
added to the rp. the viewing talent for instance they started seeing
things but they never understood what any of it was until after they had
the full feat. |
Sharn Penndroen |
Posted: Apr 14 2004, 01:33
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![]() Lemming Extraordinare ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 239 Member No.: 15 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Well said, LuciusT. I think that you've hit at the
heart of the matter. -------------------- I like swords. |
Targul |
Posted: Apr 14 2004, 03:05
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![]() Aran'shadar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 148 Member No.: 69 Joined: 29-January 04 ![]() |
In my game only one person has read any part of any
of the books, other than myself of course, so I decided to give them each
a Latent Feat or something similar. The problem was that even so they were
all so busy with having to take feats for prerequisites for a PrC or with
taking other feats they didn't have any that they felt they could spare
until lvl 12 or above, essentially making my giving them the feats
useless. I ended up giving them the ability feats for free instead, so
that they could play with them and get a better idea of what the world was
capable of and some of the flavor of the world. So far it has worked out
well and I don't feel the free feats have made them overly powerful.
-------------------- Wait, if I DID evil, and you guys here
ARE evil. Then shouldn't you be showering me with rewards and
concubines, etc.? This is Hell we're big on irony here. Then I'm sure you'll appreciate what is going to occur. I'm dead, so this is some egoscopic projection of myself? Correct, but I hardly see what... So without any fleshy meats to slow me down, how long do you REALLY think it'll take for me to usurp your entire kingdom? I have the entire legions of Hell at my command Enjoy it while you can, Skippy. -Black Mage in Hell (8-bit theater style) |
Two Rivers Wolfbrother |
Posted: Apr 14 2004, 03:03
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![]() Great Fang ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 258 Member No.: 20 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
One way I make the latent feats "useful" is I give
the players traces of their future abilities. For example, someone who
takes the latent wolfbrother feat will hear voices warning him from time
to time, latent old blood will give the character strange insights she
can't figure out the source for. Latent viewers will see hazes they have a
strange idea means something. Sniffers will will smell faint traces.
Foreseers will say things (unimportant and trivial things, or extremely
rare things) that will come true. Treesingers and Dreamers can have
similar things as well. This way, the feats are kinda useful, and the
future benefits are awesome. Another thing you might consider is giving them a very weak ability, like +1 to a skill, a very specific and not-very-useful combat ability, etc. For example, a future sniffer might get +1 to Defense when something violent has happened in the area recently, or a future viewer might get +1 to diplomacy checks when talking to someone they just saw a strange haze around that they can't figure out what it was, yet have a funny feeling it means this. Latent wolfbrothers might get +1 to Listen checks. Despite all this, I actually agree that the feats, even though they in and of themselves give nothing, are great because of what they'll give in the future. They're all quite awesome. -------------------- This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai.
Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as
wolves. Current Projects: Encounters Handbook Wheel of Time 3.5 Homepage: www.towncenterproductions.com It's Funny! |
MagusRogue |
Posted: Apr 14 2004, 04:06
PM
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![]() Village fool. Paid well. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 703 Member No.: 26 Joined: 16-January 04 ![]() |
I don't know, i kinda agree with everyone else. It's
not that bad. My only gripe is that there isn't a Dreamer feat, one that
does like the books do and gives you info through your dreams.
-------------------- Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this rant's
done. Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish partner GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed. |
Two Rivers Wolfbrother |
Posted: Apr 14 2004, 05:02
PM
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![]() Great Fang ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 258 Member No.: 20 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I'm agreeing with them too, but I'm also just
presenting options for people who wanna reach a compromise.
-------------------- This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai.
Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as
wolves. Current Projects: Encounters Handbook Wheel of Time 3.5 Homepage: www.towncenterproductions.com It's Funny! |
Targul |
Posted: Apr 14 2004, 08:08
PM
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![]() Aran'shadar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 148 Member No.: 69 Joined: 29-January 04 ![]() |
Oh no, I completely agree that the required feat is
great, however I do require permission to take any of the Lost ability
feats, plus my players are coming off of a very high power D&D
campaign, which one of them runs, so they don't see the usefulness of some
of the Lost Ability feats and don't know the world yet. I'm planning on
using the NPC I posted to the "NPC" pinned topic and showing them the true
power of dreaming and the Conjunction talent, which happen to be the two
feat/abilities that they make fun of or see as the most
useless. Peace Out, -Targul -------------------- Wait, if I DID evil, and you guys here
ARE evil. Then shouldn't you be showering me with rewards and
concubines, etc.? This is Hell we're big on irony here. Then I'm sure you'll appreciate what is going to occur. I'm dead, so this is some egoscopic projection of myself? Correct, but I hardly see what... So without any fleshy meats to slow me down, how long do you REALLY think it'll take for me to usurp your entire kingdom? I have the entire legions of Hell at my command Enjoy it while you can, Skippy. -Black Mage in Hell (8-bit theater style) |
Kathax Mosail Rishaem |
Posted: Apr 15 2004, 06:38
AM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 21 Member No.: 134 Joined: 14-April 04 ![]() |
i'd just like to add that i've given the latent feats
as freebies to my players and give them "hints"... the dreamer had a weird
dream that, the sniffer smelled a murder (didn't know what that terrible
stench that made her gag was), the viewer saw some things, the foreteller
knew something about someone. but after the first time or two it happened,
it never came up again. three of the players went on to get the true
abilities, having their characters explore what was happening, trying to
understand and make sense of it. the others blew it off. but that's cool.
it makes it a bit more normal. a couple of special people in a hero
campaign? hey, birds of a feather and all that. a group of six and every
one of them has an ability that might pop up once or twice in an age? a
bit much, in my view... -------------------- Where am I going? And why am I in this
handbasket?? |
Zarozynia |
Posted: Apr 15 2004, 03:08
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![]() Seer of Darkness ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 201 Member No.: 131 Joined: 10-April 04 ![]() |
I like the idea of giving characters that have never
played in the Wheel of Time world latent talents so that they get a full
feel for exactly how crazy this world can be. ![]() There are others that would be easy to gain understanding of, like sniifer...you could catch on pretty quickly that you have a nose for evil and voilence. And treesingers aren't unheard of in Ogier society (though they are a bit uncommon at this point) so an Ogier would already have an idea of his potential to do this and be able to practice. -------------------- Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing
experiment in writing/illustration/mythology Photographia Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog |
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