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> more than just a gateway, a metaphysical question
Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 12 2004, 10:45 PM
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I was recently purusing Anne McCaffrey's original Dragonriders of Pern trilogy for nostolgia sake when I started thinking about the way that their dragons go "between" and gateways. Addmittedly going between seems to be much more similar to the way that female channelers make a gateway, but the whole having to know your starting point (or your destination) got me to thinking: could it be possible to travel between times using a gateway weave? If you knew where you were going exactly?


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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Jun 12 2004, 11:46 PM
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Technically, if you use the rules that you need to know your starting and ending points, going between times would be possible. Although, the characters would only be able to go someplace that they've been personally, or have extensively studied. But, in your case, with your PCs going back to the AoL, I would allow the characters to use a gateway to travel back to the present.

Hope that helps. wink.gif


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 13 2004, 01:31 AM
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Gateways seem to me to be more linked to Super-String Theory. I can draw a nearly one to one correlation between the aspects of gateways woven of Saidin and wormholes. Gateways of Saidar seem to be more closely rooted in Plato's dual realms idea. Basically, the woman causes two places to manifest the same forms from the realm of forms, causing the two places to manifest in the same space in the physical realm. It would take a lot more time and space here to explain more clearly.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: Jun 13 2004, 05:48 AM
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I don't think that the intent of RJ was for gateways to allow one to move from onw time to another. Wish we could ask him. I would think that one could make a new and clever weave that would allow it though.

Peaceoutbye
J


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Xythlord
Posted: Jun 13 2004, 07:05 PM
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Please don't use this as an excuse to flame me, but I actually developed a series of "time travel" weaves and devices (ter'angreal). Now I actually didn't end up using any of these, so I couldn't even begin to tell you what they would do with a game. So, the backstory is, when I was running my game some time ago, I read a short story posted on the web about a channeler who used the portal stones during the age of legends to escape the taint. He was a brilliant researcher at that time and spent the better part of his life in the mirror world trying to build something to allow him to go back in time in his world and stop the bore from originally being opened.

With that in mind I developed, out of curiosity, some weaves, ter'angreal, and theories about the possiblity of time travel. Now for the most part, I have limited the time travel to the future only, as the past has way too much potential for paradox. That being said, you could easily take the "wheel is circular" aspect and allow for travel into the past.....or just allow it to jump backwards with the Journey Archway. However you decide, hopefully these will help you out.

Enjoy
Xyth

Journey Archway
Activation: Weave Sacrifice, level 7
Affinities: Spirit
Size: Huge
Weight: 200 lb.
Occurrence: Unique

This archway is made of red stone so oddly twisted that the eye has a hard time looking at it. Its shape is that of a complete oval, with two lines periodically crossing each other lining the entire frame of this archway. This unique item was one of three archways constructed at great labor to allow the channelers of the Age of Legends to accomplish great tasks. The other two allowed travel into realms populated by different races. This archway allowed the user to link it to an aligned Portal Stone and to travel into different realities or the future. This item may only be used once every 25 years, as it takes this long for the device to reset itself and during that time the item is out of phase with the normal world and cannot be seen or felt. This item was only used one time prior to the breaking, and was hidden away at that time to prevent abuse by male channelers.

This ter’angreal must be activated within 10 feat of an aligned Portal Stone. It allows the user to modify the Temporal Suspension weave and drastically increase that weaves abilities. Normally Temporal Suspension allows the user to activate the time dilation within a specific Portal Stone. With this archway, whatever time dilation chosen can be increased by a factor of 10, 100, or 1000. So if you choose to activate a Portal Stone with a time dilation of 3 months and 11 days, you could make that into 2 years 9 months and 10 days, 27 years 8 months and 5 days, etc.

Patterning Device
Activation: Weave Sacrifice, level 3
Affinities: Fire, Spirit
Size: Small
Weight: 3 lb.
Occurrence: Unique

The appearance of this item is of a clear crystal ball, perfectly smooth, 1 ft. across, with a small broken circle etched into the surface. Radiating irregularly out from the center are fine metallic fibers of silver. This device was originally created as part of research project on Portal Stones just prior to the start of the War of Power. Using fine threads of Fire and Spirit, this ter’angreal allowed the user to map out the destination’s of the various symbols of a Portal Stone, along with any temporal deviations that that destination marker contained. It is thought that some of the male channelers that were on this research team were responsible for the creation of the Waygates.

Activating this device allows the user to make a Knowledge (Arcana) check with a +20 circumstances bonus to determine the end destination of each symbol on a Portal Stone. Only one symbol at a time may be studied and each attempt to requires a new weave slot sacrifice.

The information provided depends upon the destination marker chosen to delve into. For destination markers to location within the same world, a successful skill check will reveal the approximate distance and direction in relation to the channeler. For destination markers into mirror worlds, the Patterning device will divulge the variance this mirror world is from the current world the device is in (incredibly similar, minor differences, major differences, significantly different or radically different) and if the caster has knowledge of this world he will be able to recognize it, otherwise the destination is unknown. The caster will also know what kind of temporal variables that destination marker may inflict upon a traveler i.e. – this marker will send you near Tear and will take 7 days, 3 hours.

Portal Lens
Activation: Wield
Affinities: None
Size: Small
Weight: 3 lb.
Occurrence: Unique

This unique Ter’angreal has been lying in the secret storerooms of the White Tower for generations, its use entirely unknown until recently. Alaindra, an accepted in the tower, working under the supervision of the Tanya Sedai, linked the description from an ancient text with this item in the storerooms. So far she has not been able to test the application of it, but is certain it will work as described.

The appearance of this item is of an age darkened silver ring, 1 ft. across and flattened in 13 places along both sides as if by a precise hammer blow. The channeler may use this item to assist in the casting of the Use Portal Stone weave, consider it an angreal with a power level of 1. Furthermore, if the channeler cast the weave through the lens she (only the channeler) may see into the world or place she is traveling (see Use Portal Stone weave) before she enters and may choose whether or not to cross. The duration of the weave is changed to “concentration” for as long as the ring is held. The view seen during the initial casting may not be changed around by moving and will only last for as long as touch is maintained with the Portal Stone.

Align Portal Stone (Traveling)
[Earth, Spirit] (Lost)
Level: 7
Casting Time: 1 Minute
Range: Touch
Effect: Temporarily changes the alignment of a Portal Stone
Duration: Special
Saving Throw: None
Weave resistance: No

Almost all studied Portal Stones have some destination markers that will transport the user to not only another place, but sometimes days or even months into the future. Some theorist of the One Power were able to isolate the temporal effects of these destination markers and prime the Portal Stone to allow a limited form of time travel using the weave Temporal Suspension.

In order to align a Portal Stone, the channeler must first have all the destination markers that have temporal effects fully mapped out. This may be as simple as reading the destination markers (if he understands them) and having a previous knowledge of the time skipping effect, or may require the use of a Patterning device Ter’angreal. Once the Portal Stone is mapped out, the character may then cast this weave and prime it to accept the weave Temporal Suspension. The channeler is limited to using the time effects already within the Portal Stone. For instance, Jor’l has mapped out a portal stone he has been studying for some time and wishes to attempt a jump to the future. The Portal Stone has five time effects within it; 2 days, 11 days, 3 weeks 4 days, 7 months 3 days, and 3 years 9 days. He is limited to choosing one of these times when casting the weave Temporal Suspension (DM’s choice as to the times available in a portal stone).

If a channeler attempts to use a Portal Stone with the weave Use Portal Stone after it has been primed, a wild surge occurs which may drastically increase the time of stasis, warp the destination, destroy the channeler or deposit him in a mirror world (DM’s option). One a Portal Stone has been charged it will remain that way for 2d4 days + channeler’s level.

Temporal Suspension (Traveling)
[Earth, Fire, Spirit] (Lost)
Level: 7-10
Casting Time: 1 Full Round
Range: Touch
Effect: Triggers a temporal effect from a Portal Stone
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Weave resistance: No

With this weave the character can access the temporal aspect of a Portal Stone. In order to utilize this function, the character must first be able to access a Portal Stone and cast Align Portal Stone upon it. The channeler is limited to the time increments already set within the stone (days, weeks, months, etc.), but usually has several choices.

Upon casting this weave on an aligned Portal Stone, you (along with a number of creatures depending on the casting level) instantly vanish, and no longer exist within the world’s time stream. The character and those within him are placed in a stasis, removed from the physical plane, and no longer subject aware of anything. Once the predetermined amount of time has elapsed, the channeler and all those within him return to the same location from which they disappeared. If some other subject occupies that space, the target is harmlessly shunted into the nearest open space. For the target(s), no time has passed and from his point of view, he has been transported into the future.


Any timed phenomenon such as poison, disease or blood loss will continue from the last moment before this weave occurred. No healing, aging, growth or other time dependent processes occur during this period of stasis, as the character(s) essentially skipped through time.


CODE
Casting Level   Creatures Taken
7                   5
8                   50
9                   100
10                  500


+1 Casting Level: You are able to use the Portal Stone, after alignment to travel to another location linked to the Stone, arriving after the specified amount of time (See Use Portal Stone pg. 181).

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Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 13 2004, 08:02 PM
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Xyth, your Journey Archway is not very far from what I am going to be using to bring my players back in time in the first place. I pretty much created a snake and foxes like doorway with a third yet unknown race inside it who conveys the willing to their place of greatest need, whereever, or whenever, this place may be. For a price, of course. biggrin.gif

Prime Paladin, I dont think that Robert Jordan intends to have time travel in his stories purely because it would not work with his plot. Does that mean that a weave couldn't be slightly adapted, or even just used differently, than he intended for it to be? With the dragons of Pern, when Lessa imagined the hold of Ruatha as she remembered it, she was transported backwards in time to when she had last been there. Likewise, it seems to me, that if you must know your destination, than if you knew your destination in a different time, you could travel to that time. So in this way you would not be able to travel foward into your future, but if you were caught in the past (as my players are going to be) then my channeler might be able to figure out how to use the gateway weave to transport him back to his "rightful" time. I figure that it probably requires a pretty high concentration check though, with perhaps dire consequences if it is failed by too much. But I haven't made a decision on that quite yet.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 01:12 AM
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I'm not a fan of time-travel personally, but that aside I think those ter'angreal where neat...and it's a cool idea. But, at the same time I don't know if time travel would be that feasible in the Wheel of Time, primarily because time is cyclic. Now someone big on philosophy and metaphysics might prove me wrong on this and if so I'll stand corrected. smile.gif

1)So let's see...time is cyclic so you definitly couldn't go back more than 6 ages, otherwise you are in the previous turning of the wheel.

2)The Wheel weaves the threads (i.e.) souls into the great Age Lace/the Pattern. Souls are continously being reused so threads never really dissapear (thats right even Balefire doesn't destroy a thread, just burns it back through time. The soul can still be reborn (Jordan is the one who actually said this in an interview) The Past is already woven and so in theory unchangeable. You are trying to take a thread from point B in the Pattern and retie it in back further in time at Point A....it's going to make a mess. Think of it as a half-knitted scarf and you'll know what I mean.

3)We've seen the havoc Balefire does, and in the Age of Legends the Pattern itself could have come unravelled completely if they had of continued using it. Time travel would be just as destructive to the Pattern if not more so in my opinion due to the effects it would have.


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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 02:04 AM
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I believe that Z is talking about traveling from the AoL into the 3rd age. not traveling backwards. So the damage would already be done, but the PCs need to return home.


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Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE (Blaeric Fen @ Jun 14 2004, 02:04 AM)
I believe that Z is talking about traveling from the AoL into the 3rd age. not traveling backwards. So the damage would already be done, but the PCs need to return home.

Pretty much.

I'm trying to think of as many ways home as possible, to anticipate what my PCs might try to do to come home. They could go and try to find the ter'angreal which brought them there, but technically it hasn't quite been made yet. wink.gif So if it does get made, it is going to get made FOR THEM.

I'm a huge fan of the time travel stuff in Gargoyle's (the old Disney cartoon) and they proved to me that from a fantasy perspective, time has already happened, it cant be changed because it already did happen. But its kind of fun to go back and time and then realize that you made something happen in the first place.


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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (Zarozynia @ Jun 13 2004, 10:17 PM)
QUOTE (Blaeric Fen @ Jun 14 2004, 02:04 AM)
I believe that Z is talking about traveling from the AoL into the 3rd age.  not traveling backwards.  So the damage would already be done, but the PCs need to return home.

Pretty much.

I'm trying to think of as many ways home as possible, to anticipate what my PCs might try to do to come home. They could go and try to find the ter'angreal which brought them there, but technically it hasn't quite been made yet. wink.gif So if it does get made, it is going to get made FOR THEM.

I'm a huge fan of the time travel stuff in Gargoyle's (the old Disney cartoon) and they proved to me that from a fantasy perspective, time has already happened, it cant be changed because it already did happen. But its kind of fun to go back and time and then realize that you made something happen in the first place.

Have you seen the movie Timeline? That's an example of going back in time to realize that something you saw in the future was a result of your own actions. Like the sarcaphagous with the knight with one ear, or the destroyed mural that leads to the tunnel.

Anyway, Z, how DO the PCs arrive in the past if not with a Ter'angreal? If they used an archway like the one in tear & rhuidean, wouldn't they be able to walk right back through it? or is it not a doorway through time, but a device that lets a person travel back to any time, even before it was made?


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Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 02:42 AM
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Its a ter'angreal that basically opens some sort of doorway through space to their time of need, which happens to be before it was made. But I figure that that doesn't matter to it, as it is only responding to need and probably doesn't understand time. But no, the ter'angreal will not continue to be there, they will pass through an opening much like the ones created by the travelling or skimming weaves.


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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 02:43 AM
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I get it now. Thanks Z.


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Zifnab
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 12:14 PM
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1) Wow, it's been a long time since I read the Pern books. Maybe I should read them again sometime...

2) The movie Timeline is a horrible mockery of an excellent book. They took out every cool scientific concept and made up some stupid "wormhole" thing that they didn't even explain.
For an excellent story as well as exposure to interesting quantum mechanics and time travel stuff, read the book. It's great.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 01:07 PM
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I have never read Timeline, but I did watch the movie and wormholes are based in real-world theoretical physics - specifically Super-String Theory. Quantum physics is really old-school, even though it is still the most widely accepted sub-atomic theory. Now, it would have taken a lot of screen time to explain the physics of why wormholes are possible and most of the audience would have gotten bored. Same goes with trying to explain quantum theory. Besides, even quantum theory denies the possibility of time travel, so using a wormhole was the only solution that would be scientifically plausible.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE
Prime Paladin, I dont think that Robert Jordan intends to have time travel in his stories purely because it would not work with his plot. Does that mean that a weave couldn't be slightly adapted, or even just used differently, than he intended for it to be? With the dragons of Pern, when Lessa imagined the hold of Ruatha as she remembered it, she was transported backwards in time to when she had last been there. Likewise, it seems to me, that if you must know your destination, than if you knew your destination in a different time, you could travel to that time. So in this way you would not be able to travel foward into your future, but if you were caught in the past (as my players are going to be) then my channeler might be able to figure out how to use the gateway weave to transport him back to his "rightful" time. I figure that it probably requires a pretty high concentration check though, with perhaps dire consequences if it is failed by too much. But I haven't made a decision on that quite yet.


I am not against the idea of time travel in the WoT game I just don't think that it is related to the traveling talent. Traveling is a space thing and time travel is, well it is a time thing. All I am saying is that it does not have to be done useing a gateway in the sense of a gateway as presented by Jordan. I would make it another talent with its on set of time based weaves. Something even the folks in the age of Legends did not think of. I am not saying that it should not be possible to do I am just saying that, having read the Dragon RIders of Pern stuff and Wot I don't find it easy to equate Traveling with the sort of teleprt kind of powers the dragons had.

QUOTE
1)So let's see...time is cyclic so you definitly couldn't go back more than 6 ages, otherwise you are in the previous turning of the wheel.

2)The Wheel weaves the threads (i.e.) souls into the great Age Lace/the Pattern. Souls are continously being reused so threads never really dissapear (thats right even Balefire doesn't destroy a thread, just burns it back through time. The soul can still be reborn (Jordan is the one who actually said this in an interview) The Past is already woven and so in theory unchangeable. You are trying to take a thread from point B in the Pattern and retie it in back further in time at Point A....it's going to make a mess. Think of it as a half-knitted scarf and you'll know what I mean.

3)We've seen the havoc Balefire does, and in the Age of Legends the Pattern itself could have come unravelled completely if they had of continued using it. Time travel would be just as destructive to the Pattern if not more so in my opinion due to the effects it would have.


I don't know about "big on metephisics or philosophy", and i don't think that I can prove you wrong but I would like to comment. Time in Jordan's model is cyclic but it still depends on temporal preception on the part of the human lives who exist there. We have seen that when the One Power preception is extremely important. If a person can make himself see reality, particularly time in a different way then he might be able to go somewhen else.

My other thought is, just like Bale fire we are only talking about a few threads in the massive complexity of the Pattern. I am thinking that the Pattern is much like a wave form in that it responds to diruption with only a little less energy than the diruption caused. so it would probably not take much to compensate for Z's PC's actions. In the WoP the pattern did not begin to have problems until the users of Balefire began to burn out whole bits of the pattern, I would think that time travel would likely have a similar consequence, we already see the pattern rearange itself when someone's thread is burned out. I thnk you are right about it being dangerous but I don't think it would be impossible or automatically catastrophic.

Peace
J

This post has been edited by Primal Paladin22 on Jun 14 2004, 01:43 PM


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 05:46 PM
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Timeline (the book) rocked smile.gif And yes it used Quantum Physics to explain their time travel. They used theories on Quantum Foam as well as (I believe if I remember correctly) the Many-Worlds theory of the universe, to build a Quantum Fax Machine through time. In order to travel back in time they had to destroy their existing bodies, etc. Very cool stuff.

If I was going to introduce time travel into the WoT at all I think I would use the Worlds of If to do so. From a theoretical standpoint it seems to make a little more sense as far as Jordan's metaphysics go. I think if you were in your own real past it would wreck havoc with the Pattern itself. However if there are an infinite number of worlds and realities one of them should match closely enough the characters AoL to suffice as far as explanation goes. As well this would let a channeler use a modification of the Gateway weave to Travel back to his own world/reality.


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Zifnab
Posted: Jun 14 2004, 06:50 PM
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Yes, I would definatley use the Mirror Worlds to create time travel in a WoT game. I'm not a big fan of paradoxes, which would invariably be created if you stayed in your own "reality".

The theory of infinitely branching realities (as used in the book Timeline to effectively travel through time) fits well with the Mirror Worlds.


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Rabid Bunny
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 06:12 AM
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I don't know if this would help, but...

What about the manipulation of tel'aran'rhiod. The Heroes of the Horn are present within the Dream World until the Wheel spins them out as required. While there they a "generic" version of their legends but each time the reenter the Age Lace they are woven to fit in. When the Horn of Valere is sounded they are summoned directly to the Horn sounder as this "generic" hero before dissappearing back into whence they came.

The Wheel can handle the movement of a great many Legends into and out of the Pattern so Z's PCs will hardly be a problem.

If the Horn was created at some point for the purposes it provides then so to can a ter'angreal for the PC's, especially if the are providing a service to the Pattern.


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Zifnab
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 11:05 AM
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I'm not really sure what the Horn legends have to do with time travel...


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 01:43 PM
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And remember the Horn of Valere is older than the Age of Legends if I remember correctly. I don't think even the Aes Sedai of the AoL could duplicate it.


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