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> Some random questions, For example, unlimited weaves at 1st lvl
NorthSaber
Posted: Mar 11 2004, 10:10 PM
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I was looking at the overchanneling rules last night and realized that for female channelers, there's no penalty for overchanneling unless you fail the Concentration check. So, if you have a high enough bonus to never fail, you can overchannel all you want with impunity.

Example: Atha'an Miere Wilder (+5 competence bonus to overchannel), with Disciplined (+2 unnamed bonus to Concentration), Skill Emphasis: Concentration (+3 unnamed bonus), max Con (assuming point buy; +4 to Concentration) and full ranks at first level (4) would give her a Concentration of 18, and thus a minimum check of 19 (roll of 1 + bonus 18). Thus she could overchannel to cast a 0-level weave with no chance of failure, and thus do it all day long. One level later she would have Concentration 19, with a minimum check of 20, allowing her to overchannel 1st-level weaves with no chance of failure.

If she only used weaves to which she knew all of the powers, she could cast 2nd-level effect weaves with this method without expending any slots. Is this correct?! (If it is, a higher level Aes Sedai with Improved Control could easily overchannel to cast unlimited 0-3 level weaves within her affinities...)

Another question regarding channelers: they can wear armor with no detrimental effects to their channeling, correct? It's also worth noting that wearing armor you're not proficient with only gives one noteworthy penalty, and that is to your attack bonus. If you're a channeler, that really doesn't matter much. The attack rolls required by weaves tend to be touch attack rolls, which balances the penalty, and for those channelers who don't use targeted offensive weaves, there's virtually no penalty to wearing armor. Is this correct?

Ok, another question: on p. 27 under Restrictions, the Atha'an Miere are mentioned to have background restrictions. Is the requirement to have a single rank in Profession (Sailor) this "restriction" they're talking about?

Question about Multiweave: can you concentrate on more than one weave at a time if you have this feat? (Btw, this feat seems to the precedent that lead to the ruling that you can attack while concentrating on a weave if you make a DC 15 Concentration check.) If so, could you point me to the ruling?

Question about the Asha'man: the Asha'man Combat Casting ability is not restricted to combat use or offensive feats, correct? The wording seems to imply that the Asha'man simply get a +5 (unnamed) bonus to Concentration whenever they are casting or maintaining a weave - even if the concentration check is unrelated to channeling. Is this correct?

Question about embracing the True Source: aside from the One Sense of shadowspan (and other channelers of your gender), there's no down-side for a female channeler to permanently embrace the True Source, correct?

...Ok, I think that's it for now. Sorry if these questions have been answered or discussed elsewhere - I don't remember seeing them.


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LuciusT
Posted: Mar 11 2004, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (NorthSaber @ Mar 11 2004, 10:10 PM)
I was looking at the overchanneling rules last night and realized that for female channelers, there's no penalty for overchanneling unless you fail the Concentration check. So, if you have a high enough bonus to never fail, you can overchannel all you want with impunity.

Example: Atha'an Miere Wilder (+5 competence bonus to overchannel), with Disciplined (+2 unnamed bonus to Concentration), Skill Emphasis: Concentration (+3 unnamed bonus), max Con (assuming point buy; +4 to Concentration) and full ranks at first level (4) would give her a Concentration of 18, and thus a minimum check of 19 (roll of 1 + bonus 18). Thus she could overchannel to cast a 0-level weave with no chance of failure, and thus do it all day long. One level later she would have Concentration 19, with a minimum check of 20, allowing her to overchannel 1st-level weaves with no chance of failure.

If she only used weaves to which she knew all of the powers, she could cast 2nd-level effect weaves with this method without expending any slots. Is this correct?! (If it is, a higher level Aes Sedai with Improved Control could easily overchannel to cast unlimited 0-3 level weaves within her affinities...)

Yes, the character you describe can channel an unlimited number of low level weaves. That is one of the implications of the channeling system. Of course, the character you describe really can't do much else.


QUOTE
Another question regarding channelers: they can wear armor with no detrimental effects to their channeling, correct? It's also worth noting that wearing armor you're not proficient with only gives one noteworthy penalty, and that is to your attack bonus. If you're a channeler, that really doesn't matter much. The attack rolls required by weaves tend to be touch attack rolls, which balances the penalty, and for those channelers who don't use targeted offensive weaves, there's virtually no penalty to wearing armor. Is this correct?


Again correct. However, with the class defense bonus system armor isn't really that useful for anyone but armsmen.

QUOTE
Ok, another question: on p. 27 under Restrictions, the Atha'an Miere are mentioned to have background restrictions. Is the requirement to have a single rank in Profession (Sailor) this "restriction" they're talking about?


3 for 3. smile.gif

QUOTE
Question about Multiweave: can you concentrate on more than one weave at a time if you have this feat? (Btw, this feat seems to the precedent that lead to the ruling that you can attack while concentrating on a weave if you make a DC 15 Concentration check.) If so, could you point me to the ruling?


I always rather took that to be the point of Multiweave...

QUOTE
Question about the Asha'man: the Asha'man Combat Casting ability is not restricted to combat use or offensive feats, correct? The wording seems to imply that the Asha'man simply get a +5 (unnamed) bonus to Concentration whenever they are casting or maintaining a weave - even if the concentration check is unrelated to channeling. Is this correct?


I would definately say that Combat Casting is for channeling related checks only... and then only for distraction checks. It doesn't apply to overchanneling. IMO.

QUOTE
Question about embracing the True Source: aside from the One Sense of shadowspan (and other channelers of your gender), there's no down-side for a female channeler to permanently embrace the True Source, correct?


No explicatly stated mechanical restriction. There is a, largely undefined, restriction in that channeling is addictive and dangerous. A channeler who holds the source for too long will be tempted to draw more and more of the Power... essentially overchanneling until she burns herself out.

...Ok, I think that's it for now. Sorry if these questions have been answered or discussed elsewhere - I don't remember seeing them.
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alohahaha
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 12:12 AM
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You know, I've always wanted to know the difference between Asha'man Combat Casting and Asha'man Control myself. I'm still not sure what the exact difference is. I'm supposing that Asha'man Control allows you to better overchannel to initiatlly cast offensive weaves, while Asha'man Combat Casting allows you to maintain offensive weaves that have already been cast. Is this right?

This post has been edited by alohahaha on Mar 12 2004, 12:19 AM


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NorthSaber
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 12:13 AM
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QUOTE
Yes, the character you describe can channel an unlimited number of low level weaves. That is one of the implications of the channeling system. Of course, the character you describe really can't do much else.


I tweaked the character idea a little bit and with the point-buy system I can have Con 16 and Wis 16 (and reasonable other abilities) and not even need the Skill Emphasis to have a minimum overchanneling check of 15. Turns out this feature is a cool unexpected feature of channeling I didn't expect, and it doesn't really restrict the character in other ways either.

QUOTE
Again correct. However, with the class defense bonus system armor isn't really that useful for anyone but armsmen.


Well, I'm just saying that if my first level wilder with a Defense of 3 finds a set of full plate and a large shield (total Defense +10), you can be sure I'll be wearing it before you can say "Tel'aran'rhiod".

If anyone can point me to "official" answers to the other questions I had, that would be cool.


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KSBsnowowl
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 12:39 AM
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Do note that the societal structures of the Atha'an Miere and Aiel, and how they handle channelers within their societies would generally not allow for either of those backgrounds to be a Wilder. Thus, to get the Disciplined feat you won't be getting the +5 wilder bonus. The rules do not really state this; but if you are playing in the world and the GM knows anything about those societies, he possibly wouldn't allow it. It's another one of those role-play restrictions. Note that this role-play restriction is female only; males would obviously be wilders. But then they couldn't freely overchannel, either.
QUOTE
Ok, another question: on p. 27 under Restrictions, the Atha'an Miere are mentioned to have background restrictions. Is the requirement to have a single rank in Profession (Sailor) this "restriction" they're talking about?
Reread that section again. You must always have more ranks in Profession (Sailor) than you have character levels. For a channeler who gets 4 skill points per level, this equates to you spending almost a quarter of your skill points on Sailing (aside from bonus skill points from high Int).
QUOTE
Question about Multiweave: can you concentrate on more than one weave at a time if you have this feat?
Yes. There is no ruling, because that is all the feat does. While maintaining concentration on a weave, you may cast another. It doesn't restrict you from concentrating on the new weave as normal. Note the Special: tag. It mentions casting a third weave while maintaining (ie - concentrating on) two other weaves.
QUOTE
Question about the Asha'man: the Asha'man Combat Casting ability is not restricted to combat use or offensive feats, correct? The wording seems to imply that the Asha'man simply get a +5 (unnamed) bonus to Concentration whenever they are casting or maintaining a weave - even if the concentration check is unrelated to channeling. Is this correct?
It says it is a variation of the Combat Casting feat. As such, its effects only come into play when casting (maintaining) on the defensive. Its only listed differences are that the bonus is +5 (instead of +4) and it allows you the bonus while maintaining a weave (again, on the defensive).

This post has been edited by KSBsnowowl on Mar 12 2004, 12:45 AM


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Axel
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 01:39 AM
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There might be a role-play restriction on armor. If you noticed the Aes Sedai couldn't cast fireball without the throwing motion. The motion has nothing to do with the weave itself, but some unconscience part of their minds couldn't focus without it. Heavy armor would restrict such movement thus preventing the weave from being cast.


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LuciusT
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 03:02 AM
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QUOTE (NorthSaber @ Mar 12 2004, 12:13 AM)
Well, I'm just saying that if my first level wilder with a Defense of 3 finds a set of full plate and a large shield (total Defense +10), you can be sure I'll be wearing it before you can say "Tel'aran'rhiod".

Good grief, why? Armor is heavy, messy, smelly and loud. This isn't D&D, after all.

QUOTE
If anyone can point me to "official" answers to the other questions I had, that would be cool.


The FAQ at the top of the forum is as close to "offical answers" as your going to find. If it isn't in there, then there aren't any "offical answers" ... just us. smile.gif
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NorthSaber
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 06:32 AM
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Societal structures of the Atha'an Miere and Aiel: there are always exceptions (like a small group of Aiel or Atha'an Miere separated from their culture generations ago). Plus, the campaign might take place in another Age where this is different. In any case, this doesn't matter, that +2 is insignificant. Even without that a 1st level wilder can easily gain a high enough Concentration to overchannel unlimited 0-level weaves.

Atha'an Miere skill requirement: ah, good catch. However, the first four ranks are free if this is chosen as the background skill. Afterwards, put one rank in Concentration, Composure and Weavesight each, and she should be ok.

Multiweave: yes, you are correct. I now saw the special, which does indeed imply that you can concentrate on several weaves at once.

Asha'man Combat Casting: I don't think that's the English language works. Mentioning that it's a variant of Combat Casting is irrelevant rules-wise, unless the two clauses are connected. Otherwise the exact situational conditions have to be specified in the ability. Now this can be attributed to a typo - or a different interpretation - but it is also interesting how the Improved version of this ability specifies it only works when casting weaves "on the offensive". What might this mean? Only casting on the defensive is specified in the rules, AFAIK.

Wearing armor: when I'm facing Trollocs and darkfriends who want to gut me, you better believe I'll take any protection I can get. Especially if I'm not an Aes Sedai who has to worry about appearances.

FAQ and you guys giving answers: I really appreciate this. And please don't take my arguments the wrong way: I simply believe that testing assumptions with extreme examples is a good way to get to the truth and show both sides of the argument.



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Axel
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 02:14 PM
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Like I said, heavy armor would restrict movement. Your character would be unable to make the motions that he/she learned as part of the weaving. It's an unconsience thing that you've got to worry about.
Roleplaying restriction.


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 03:12 PM
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the aes sedai have taught themselves to use somatic components in their chanelling (like wizards), while they are not inherently necessary to chanel it is the way they learned, and as such, it is necessary for them to actually chanel. the Aiel Wise Ones attempted to teach the Aes Sedai that they had as aprenticess to chanel without their foolish hand gestures, but in most cases it was just a method to get them in control of their pride or other character defects. In my homebrew campaign I automatically give the Aes Sedai the Somatic Component Requirement Disadvantage, however no other Chaneler needs Somatic components to chanlel, unless they are wilders who took the Somatic Component Requirement Disadvantage.
[edit] added everything after this[/edit]
( By the way I'm using Disadvantages from the 3e Unearthed Arcana, which meats that they usualy provide a penalty that is greater than a feat would normaly give a bonus and in reconpense give you a bonus feat. For SCRD I have specified that the bonus feat must be a chanelling feat. Another way of dealing with the somatic limitation of Aes sedai would be to treat it as if it were a block)

QUOTE
Asha'man Combat Casting: I don't think that's the English language works. Mentioning that it's a variant of Combat Casting is irrelevant rules-wise, unless the two clauses are connected. Otherwise the exact situational conditions have to be specified in the ability. Now this can be attributed to a typo - or a different interpretation - but it is also interesting how the Improved version of this ability specifies it only works when casting weaves "on the offensive". What might this mean? Only casting on the defensive is specified in the rules, AFAIK.


From the errata:
pg. 208, Asha'man Combat Casting should read:
"At 2nd level, an Asha'man gains a variation of the Combat Casting feat. He receives a +5 circumstance bonus on Concentration checks made to cast or maintain a weave while on the defensive."

Improved Asha'man Combat Casting should read:
"As Asha'man combat casting, except the Asha'man gains a +6 circumstance bonus on Concentration checks made to cast or maintain a weave while on the defensive."

from the book pg 139 :
Casting on the defensive: you may attempt to cast a weave while on the defensive . . . does not proveoke an attack of oportunity. . . require[s] a concentration check (DC15 + weave level)

from multyweave on pg 97:
If you are distracted you must make concentration checks for both weaves (see Distractions, page 162)

from page 162 :
Distractions:
Some types of distractions that require Concentration checks include motion. . . or casting defensively.

my interpretation of all this is that the ashaman combat casting ability is designed to give you a bonus specifically when casting on the defensive to enable you to both pull off the weave you are casting while in a threatened area and maintain a second which you have since it the class has Multyweave as a requirement.

This post has been edited by Kakita Aramoro on Mar 12 2004, 03:54 PM
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alohahaha
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 04:39 PM
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Kakita, where have you found the errata for WoT? I didn't know there was one.

And you're wrong, NorthSaber - a roll of a 1 is an automatic failure. It doesn't matter how many ranks, what kinds of feats, how high your Abilities are, if you roll a 1, a 5% chance, you fail. On overchanneling. And seeing as how male channelers get +1 to Madness whenever he overchannels, just for the attempt, it's not something I'd do very much.

This post has been edited by alohahaha on Mar 12 2004, 04:51 PM


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drothgery
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 05:19 PM
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The natural 1 = automatic failure rule doesn't apply to skill checks in d20 games (some have houseruled otherwise, but that's clearly non-standard). I'm not sure if it applies to anything other than attack rolls, actually.


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Axel
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 05:48 PM
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well considering that d20 turned just about everything into an attack roll or an ability check, why not? Perfectly good rule: natural 1 always fails, natural 20 always succeeds. Adds flavor.


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Freya
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (NorthSaber @ Mar 12 2004, 06:32 AM)
Wearing armor: when I'm facing Trollocs and darkfriends who want to gut me, you better believe I'll take any protection I can get. Especially if I'm not an Aes Sedai who has to worry about appearances.

In addition to the somatic requirements for some traditions, keep in mind that the weight of armor applies a pretty hefty penalty to nearly anything requiring a Dex or Str modifier. So, be ready for a minus to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Swim, and Tumble. And while your character probably wouldn't mourn the loss of most of those skills, your party would surely care when you are clanking around with a -4 to your Hide and Move Silently skills!

And if you have a high Dex, then Max Dex comes into play.

Not to mention that very, very few people in the Wheel of Time world wear armor. And the vast majority of those are soldiers in a standing army. You would stick out like a sore thumb.
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Axel
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 08:41 PM
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On the other hand... a leather jerkin shouldn't be too hard to come by. Any Woodsman with some leatherworking abilities should be able to do hide armor (one who's been in combat with Seanchan could get scale) and any idiot who doesn't mind the weight and heat should manage padded armor. Just because plate and chain are rare doesn't make all armor so.


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Freya
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 09:08 PM
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Agreed. My argument mostly ridicules the use of medium and heavy armor for use by non-soldiers. But, yes, any leather-based armor is fair game and not overly out-of-the-ordinary.
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Posted: Mar 12 2004, 10:37 PM
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Heavy armor restricting "spellcasting movements": this has no basis in the rules, sorry. The ASF rules of base d20 could have easily been included to WoT but they weren't, which makes me think the game creators wanted this to be a viable option.

Asha'man Combat Casting: thanks, I was hoping there was errata on this. It makes much more sense like you said.

Auto-failure on a 1: as it has been said, this has no basis in the rules. Only attack rolls have "auto-success" and "auto-failure", and most house-rule even those away, making a roll of 1 count as -10 and a roll of 20 count as 30.

Weight of armor: channelers don't have enough skill points to increase those skills anyway, and if the opponent has any ranks in Listen, that extra -4 will make no difference. Let the wanderers and algai'd'siswai do the skulking and sneaking.

Max Dex: this is true, but most of the time a channeler will choose either Str or Dex as her lowest stat. Even if she has a Dex bonus of say +1, she can still wear fairly heavy armor without losing it.

About standing out like a sore thumb: many people are saying that it would be "bad roleplaying" to wear armor as a channeler. I disagree. If I, in person, was put in a situation where I was going to meet Trollocs and who knows what other monsters in lethal melee, I wouldn't give a second thought to what people think of my appearance - I'd be almost single-mindedly concentrated on keeping myself safe and unharmed. It's not about min/maxing. A person who has a high risk of getting into fights (such as almost any adventurers) would be foolish not to wear such protection if possible, in my opinion.

The only thing that I would really consider to be a viable argument against wearing armor is the reduced movement rate; that full plate isn't going to do you much good if you're too slow to run away from the Trollocs chasing you.
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NorthSaber
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 10:39 PM
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(Doh, forgot to login. The above post is from me.)


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alohahaha
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 11:10 PM
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Don't forget to about having the GP to pay for it. And if you find a suit of full plate, good luck trying to get it to fit you.


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NorthSaber
Posted: Mar 12 2004, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE (alohahaha @ Mar 12 2004, 11:10 PM)
Don't forget to about having the GP to pay for it.  And if you find a suit of full plate, good luck trying to get it to fit you.

True - my first mention on the subject specified finding such armor, but it is true that they are expensive. Also, the fitting thing may or may not be enforced by the DM, and I don't think this is mentioned in the rules, technically speaking.


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