_fichiers/nav_m.gif)
Call of the Horn | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register ) | Resend Validation Email |
Pages: (2) 1 [2] ( Go to first unread post ) | ![]() ![]() ![]() |
andurii |
Posted: Feb 14 2004, 03:59
AM
| ||
Newbie ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2 Member No.: 72 Joined: 31-January 04 ![]() |
that's interesting. like rand in teotw | ||
drothgery |
Posted: Feb 14 2004, 04:02
AM
| ||
Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 126 Member No.: 25 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
More like Nynaeve-the-Wisdom's apprentice Healing Egwene; Nynaeve pretty much has to be a mid-level channeler the day she left Emond's Field. -------------------- | ||
Targul |
Posted: Feb 14 2004, 11:16
PM
|
![]() Aran'shadar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 148 Member No.: 69 Joined: 29-January 04 ![]() |
Ok, Magus then would Wilders receive the Channeler
Prodigy feat for free? I only ask because I seem to remember reading that people born with the spark are almost always more powerful (but not necessarily if an Initiate took the feat and had higher base stats, Drothgery) than those that only have the ability to learn. Then you could leave the classes as they are, consolidate the weaves per day list, and just disallow multiclassing between the two. Like I'm summing up for Magus. Once a Wilder always a Wilder. The lesser number of feats are in my opinion to show the lack of tutored or guided learning. They are instinctual and will always be instinctual. People don't just up and change their learning patterns or techniques. -------------------- Wait, if I DID evil, and you guys here
ARE evil. Then shouldn't you be showering me with rewards and
concubines, etc.? This is Hell we're big on irony here. Then I'm sure you'll appreciate what is going to occur. I'm dead, so this is some egoscopic projection of myself? Correct, but I hardly see what... So without any fleshy meats to slow me down, how long do you REALLY think it'll take for me to usurp your entire kingdom? I have the entire legions of Hell at my command Enjoy it while you can, Skippy. -Black Mage in Hell (8-bit theater style) |
MagusRogue |
Posted: Feb 15 2004, 04:05
PM
|
![]() Village fool. Paid well. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 703 Member No.: 26 Joined: 16-January 04 ![]() |
Nope. As i said before, the Wilder class, as opposed
to being born with the spark, indicates one who has started channeling
without any teaching. They go on the fly, doing things as they think it
should be. This self-teachign will forever color their channeling, even if
they start taking lessens. Channeling Prodigy, on the other hand, means you can channel better than anyone else. It's for those with huge innate skill and power (nynaeve, egwene, elayne, to name a couple). Note that being born with the spark does NOT mean you're going to be uber-powerful. There are those who were never born with the spark being infinately more powerful than those born with it. it just means that eventually you'll channel, whether you want to or not. -------------------- Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this rant's
done. Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish partner GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed. |
Sa_sara |
Posted: Feb 15 2004, 05:32
PM
| ||
![]() Unofficial Gaming Geek Princess ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 136 Member No.: 44 Joined: 21-January 04 ![]() |
It's only coincidence really that our heroes, the
most powerful in the world, are so largely composed of sparkers (that and
the fact that no one has really sought out channelers to train until
recently)...these are not complete and definitive lists...they are only
basic demonstrations that most of the non-sparkers who are powerful are
AoL (Age of Legends) or discovered because some AS or Ashie bothered to
test them. It's really more of an issue that the white tower was too lazy
to find anyone but sparkers and that no one wanted to find men (except
sparkers, to kill them) until recently...and most non-sparkers want little
to do with the power if they even suspect that they're able to use it --
especially if they're men or Seanchan (or Sharan...but then, if you had to
get your face tatooed and be a public disgrace considered the bastard of
an Ayyad and a commoner who should have been killed at birth, you'd hate
that you could channel too!). Most Powerful Men (sparkers are starred) Rand * Moridin (resurrected, so not sparker) Taim * Logain * Demandred (AoL) Jahar (tested by BT) ... and so on notice that only AoL and post-BT guys are non-sparkers? Most Powerful Women Alivia * (she's damane) Lanfear (pre-resurrection) Graendal (AoL) Semirhage (AoL) Sharina (tested by Egwene's Tower) Nynaeve * Moghedien (AoL) Egwene * Elayne (a princess whose mother has limited One Power and an Aes Sedai advisor) Aviendha *? Nicola (tested by Egwene's tower) Cadsuane Moiraine * (also a high ranking noble) Siuan * (kicked out of her city by law) (these two were considered strong at the time they were raised) --------------------
-- Courtesy of Your Unofficial Gaming Geek Princess | ||
shaun |
Posted: Feb 17 2004, 10:39
AM
|
Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 16 Member No.: 81 Joined: 7-February 04 ![]() |
with there being initiates being sronger chanelers
than wilders the thing is that maybe 70% of people are of "average"
strength 15% weak and 15% strong. Being a wilder/sparker makes you
stronger but it doesn't mean that there couldn't be someone stronger only
that there would be hardly any of them. Shown on a skale of 100 most chanelers would be around 60. Being a wilder gives you +15 so someone like Egwene would normally be around 60 but is 75 as she was a wilder. Nynaveve however would normally be strong, around 70 being a wilder bumps her up to 85, but it doesn't meen there couldn't be a 90 or even a 95 non-sparker just that they are extreemly rare. On the other hand there could be a wilder normaly 40 but as they are a wilder it bumps them up to 55 which is resonable but the average chaneler is still stronger. |
Targul |
Posted: Feb 18 2004, 03:18
AM
|
![]() Aran'shadar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 148 Member No.: 69 Joined: 29-January 04 ![]() |
That is what I've been trying to say. Thx shaun
-------------------- Wait, if I DID evil, and you guys here
ARE evil. Then shouldn't you be showering me with rewards and
concubines, etc.? This is Hell we're big on irony here. Then I'm sure you'll appreciate what is going to occur. I'm dead, so this is some egoscopic projection of myself? Correct, but I hardly see what... So without any fleshy meats to slow me down, how long do you REALLY think it'll take for me to usurp your entire kingdom? I have the entire legions of Hell at my command Enjoy it while you can, Skippy. -Black Mage in Hell (8-bit theater style) |
The Dread Morg |
Posted: Mar 9 2004, 07:03
PM
|
![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 8 Joined: 17-December 03 ![]() |
Greetings everyone! I've been adapting the WoT system to be applied to my Birthright Campaign, and I am very intrigued (and cursed) by the channeling system as awhole in this regard. I have also been struggling with the Wilder vs. Initiate schtick as well, and I am now wondering if anyone has tried making the Initiate class a sort of "prestige class" or maybe a template of some kind. This would mean that every character is born with the spark (which is the case from my understanding of the One Power), and esentially begins life as a wilder. The difference is how they learn to use the power. Instead of making Initiate a "starting" class, make it a "low requisite" (meaning that a 1st level character could meet the pre-reqs) prestige class (or template if you prefer) that is applied overtop of the wilder class. Instead of giving Initiates a seperate advancement table & spell list, simply apply bonus spells/day or similar adjustments to the specific Initaite template. In this way, a character who becomes an initiate, but then is "cast from the order" at some point (effectively multi-classing from Initiate into Wilder as it stands now), they are still "wilders" at their core, and do not gain any additional benefits. In fact, as a DM, I would apply penalties for leaving an order. Once you're in, you're in... The trick to this would be to have the various Orders/Traditions worked out ahead of time, and trying to balance the "differences" between a true wilder and those that would come with the "Initiate template". You would also have to keep in mind the nature of the instruction the channeler recieved and make them stick to it. (I tend to think of it as someone who grew up left handed, suddenly being forced to use their right. If they suddenly are not "required" to use their right hand, would they revert to being left handed, or continue using the right?) Still pondering.... -------------------- "The Right To Rule
is Yours by Birth; All You Need Do is Try and Claim It." Bloodsilver.com |
Freya |
Posted: Mar 9 2004, 08:08
PM
| ||
![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 54 Member No.: 32 Joined: 16-January 04 ![]() |
This is an incorrect assumption. There is ample evidence that some people simply will not ever channel. That some have the channeling 'gene' and can learn to channel if trained. And, that some have the 'spark', meaning they will channel regardless of whether they are trained or not. Of course, you can use your method for your game...it just won't be channeling as described by Jordan in the books. Aside: Egwene has the Spark, but is not a Wilder. Every step of her first touch of the Source was guided by Aes Sedai as well as her training afterwards. Why is this misconception remain so common? | ||
alohahaha |
Posted: Mar 9 2004, 10:09
PM
|
Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 48 Member No.: 92 Joined: 13-February 04 ![]() |
Freya is right. Channelers are naturally divided into two types - 1) Sparkers - those who are born with the spark and will eventually channel whether they want to or not 2) Students - those who can be taught to channel and will never channel if they are not taught. Now, Sparkers and Students can come from either of those. Nynaeve is a Sparker, but is a Wilder since she recieved no formal training. Egwene is a Sparker, but is an Initiate because she was actually taught by the White Tower. From this, we can ascertain two things - the majority of Wilders are Sparkers, but not all. This can happen if a Wisdom is a Wilder and from the girls of the village she can sense that a girl can "listen to the wind" and decides to take her as an apprentice Wisdom. The Wisdom would then teach the girl how to be a Wilder even if the girl is a Student, not a Sparker. Initiates look at things intellectually, learning how to use the One Power through an almost formulaic way. That's why their channeling ability is based on Intelligence. They don't learn channeling naturally - rather, they are instructed, which puts a kind of limitation on what they can do because they are trained to do things the "right" way, which is the way the tradition tells them to do it. Because they are taught, they get more bonus channeling feats, but then again they can only cast cross-talent lvl 0 weaves. Initiates get more bonus channeling feats, but they need them to get the Extra Talent to cast anything but lvl 0 weaves. Wilders, on the other hand, do things by instinct. They aren't trained by others to channel, so they try to figure it out on their own. This is represented by what their channeling ability is based on - either Wisdom or Charisma, since the book contradicts itself on this point in many parts of the book. For my games, I use Charisma, because it seems to me that wilders sort of "force" the One Power to work through sheer tenacity. Also, because Wilders have the Block, their use of the One Power is more personalized. They can only channel under the proper emotional state. The case for Wisdom is easy too since Wilders don't learn weaves in formulaic ways, but rather through trial and error. Wisdom shows how much wilders can learn through experience. Remember when Nynaeve was trying to cure Logain of gentling? It took her quite a long time to figure out how to do it, and when she found out how, it wasn't THAT difficult. But how could she, a wilder, do this amazing thing? Because she never went through the mental screwing up that initiates go through, since certain traditions claim that some things are "impossible," which reduces their potential. That's the power of the Wilder - they have a higher potential. That's why they get the overchanneling bonus and they can channel cross-talent weaves up to the 2nd lvl, but they get less feats. They aren't as "focused" as Initiates are, so they can cast weaves in Talents they don't have, but they aren't trained by mentors on how to use the One Power, which is why they get less bonus channeling feats. Me, I disallow channelers multiclassing into intiates/wilders. I feel that that's too good of a way to be a power-gamer. Sure, wilders are brought into traditions, but just because they are a part of a tradition doesn't mean they follow it perfectly. Remember in the books when that Aes Sedai (maybe Moiraine? can't remember) was trying to teach Nynaeve the excercise of the blossoming flower to attain the mental calm to sieze saidar whenever she wants? Nynaeve keeps getting upset because she was under the block that she could only channel when angry. One way that she used to help get over her block and sieze saidar whenever she wanted was to invision herself as a flower, but it was one full of thorns. Even though the White Tower was trying to teach her the "right" way to channel, she still put her personal touch on it, and flat out disagreed with much of the White Tower on certain things. That's why she's a wilder, not an initiate/wilder. Egwene, on the other hand, is definitely an initiate, because even though she would have channeled whether she wanted to or not, she was trained how to channel in the White Tower. If she learned how to channel on her own, or if Nynaeve taught her, she would be a Wilder. Personally, I like how the channeling classes are in the book, and I've explained why. Besides making Charisma the primary attribute for wilders, the only difference I've made is increasing their base attack damage to be the same as Nobles and Wanderers. Wilders are a lot tougher than Initiates are and they don't use the One Power for every little thing, especially if they have a block. Remember when Nynaeve had trouble siezing saidar and her and Egwene were shielded, so Nynaeve just grabbed a club and beat the channeler shielding them? That's why I think that. Those are just my opinions, though. -------------------- I may be in the gutter But I'm looking to the stars! Shatter your rose-colored glasses But never stop dreaming. I may have my feet down to earth But my head is always in the clouds. I won't promise you the sun and the moon But I can tell you fantasies of far greater things While providing you with simple pleasures. |
alohahaha |
Posted: Mar 9 2004, 10:10
PM
|
Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 48 Member No.: 92 Joined: 13-February 04 ![]() |
Sorry. This post has been edited by alohahaha on Mar 9 2004, 10:15 PM -------------------- I may be in the gutter But I'm looking to the stars! Shatter your rose-colored glasses But never stop dreaming. I may have my feet down to earth But my head is always in the clouds. I won't promise you the sun and the moon But I can tell you fantasies of far greater things While providing you with simple pleasures. |
alohahaha |
Posted: Mar 9 2004, 10:11
PM
|
Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 48 Member No.: 92 Joined: 13-February 04 ![]() |
Sorry. My browser went screwy and put the post up 3
times. Good thing there's this edit option. This post has been edited by alohahaha on Mar 9 2004, 10:14 PM -------------------- I may be in the gutter But I'm looking to the stars! Shatter your rose-colored glasses But never stop dreaming. I may have my feet down to earth But my head is always in the clouds. I won't promise you the sun and the moon But I can tell you fantasies of far greater things While providing you with simple pleasures. |
The Dread Morg |
Posted: Mar 9 2004, 11:19
PM
|
![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 8 Joined: 17-December 03 ![]() |
So... essentially you are all saying that someone
born with the ability to channel may not neccessarily start channeling?
That it would lay dormant for all times unless awoken by some
means? Interesting.... I had always thought it was there or it wasn't. Period. If it was there, it would manifest sooner or later and to some degree or another. If it wasn't there to begin with, then you had a lifetime of potatoe farming and sheep herding to look forward to. Is anyone inclined to give me some examples from the books that would indicate this? It is a new concept to me to say that Egwene might never have channeled. Same with Elayne. They may not have channeled prior to joining the Tower, but whose to say they wouldn't have started listening to the wind as well if the Trollocs never came that winters night. This post has been edited by The Dread Morg on Mar 9 2004, 11:21 PM -------------------- "The Right To Rule
is Yours by Birth; All You Need Do is Try and Claim It." Bloodsilver.com |
alohahaha |
Posted: Mar 10 2004, 12:21
AM
|
Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 48 Member No.: 92 Joined: 13-February 04 ![]() |
Almost, Dread Morg. You see, when it comes to
channeling, there are three types - 1) those born with the spark and will
channel whether they want to or not, 2) those who can channel but must be
taught how, and 3) those who never will channel. Nynaeve was born with the
spark but was never taught how to, so that's why she's a Wilder. Egwene
was born with the spark as well, but since Moiraine found her, she was
able to go to the White Tower in time to learn how to channel safely,
which is why she's an Initiate. If Egwene was never found by the White
Tower, she would have learned to channel on her own, and become a Wilder.
If I remember correctly, Elayne has the ability to channel, but not the
spark. That means she has the ability to channel, but not naturally;
someone has to teach her. If she didn't go to the White Tower, she would
have just been a noblewoman. I believe that Aviendha is the same way - she
could have continued being a Maiden of the Spear, but since Wise Ones
basically force channeling women, Sparkers and Students, to be Wise Ones,
she had to become an Initiate. I don't know how far you've read the books, so this may be a spoiler for you and all others who have yet to read about the Seanchan. ALERT!!! ALERT!!! The Seanchan are able to collar channelers by putting a ter'angreal known as an a'dam around the neck of a channeler. An a'dam consists of a silver collar connected to a silver bracelet by a silver leash. The channeler is called a damane, or "leashed one." While wearing the a'dam, the damane cannot use the One Power, or even reach for it. Rather, the sul'dam, "leash-holder," allows the damane to embrace saidar and forces the damane to weave whatever the sul'dam wants. Only certain girls, however, can become sul'dam - not every girl feels the link to damane. If I remember correctly, most of the damane that are captured are channelers born with the spark, who will channel whether they want to or not, while the sul'dam are channelers who can be taught. That's why sul'dam can feel the One Power, but do not create weaves themselves - they've never been taught how. They only know how to force damane to cast weaves. Also, there are much more sul'dam than there are damane, just as there are more channelers who can be taught than there are channelers born with the spark. Of course, if a sul'dam is collared in an a'dam, she is as restricted as a damane. This only happened when the Seanchan came to Randland and started collaring Aes Sedai. The Seanchan never knew that there was a difference between Sparkers and Students. If the Empire found out that there is little difference between sul'dam and damane, the Seanchan may tear itself apart. So that's the difference between Sparkers and Students. Sparkers will channel no matter what. Students have to be taught. Sparkers not found by traditions will become Wilders. Students not found by traditions will be whatever class they already are. Sparkers found by traditions will become Initiates. Students found by traditions will become Initiates. Students found and taught to channel by Wilders will become Wilders. This post has been edited by alohahaha on Mar 10 2004, 12:26 AM -------------------- I may be in the gutter But I'm looking to the stars! Shatter your rose-colored glasses But never stop dreaming. I may have my feet down to earth But my head is always in the clouds. I won't promise you the sun and the moon But I can tell you fantasies of far greater things While providing you with simple pleasures. |
drothgery |
Posted: Mar 10 2004, 12:57
AM
| ||
Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 126 Member No.: 25 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
obNitpick: Elayne has the spark. It's probably also worth noting that "sparkers" die about 3/4 of the time if they don't get formal training, so if Moiraine hadn't found and taught Egwene, she probably wouldn't be a wilder; she'd be a corpse. -------------------- | ||
The Dread Morg |
Posted: Mar 10 2004, 03:53
PM
|
![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 36 Member No.: 8 Joined: 17-December 03 ![]() |
I've read right up to the latest book (haven't read
it yet, instead went back and started over from the beginning). I've
missed the Sparker vs. Non Sparker in both reads it seems. ::Slaps self:: I don't contest the fact about why Egwene is an Initiate and Nyn a Wilder. That makes perfect sense to me. The idea that someone who can touch the source but needs to learn how to channel is new to me though. I sort of girued that sooner or later, a situation would arise, andin the heat of the moment, they would channel (conciously or not). That's where the "everyone starts as a wilder at their core" came from. I will ceratinly have to review this shocking revelation and see how it changes things. -------------------- "The Right To Rule
is Yours by Birth; All You Need Do is Try and Claim It." Bloodsilver.com |
Two Rivers Wolfbrother |
Posted: Mar 10 2004, 07:26
PM
|
![]() Great Fang ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 258 Member No.: 20 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I think it's like the ability to draw. Some people
are naturals and can draw fantastically, though sometimes they develop
their own methods and even dependencies on certain things (muses, objects
to look at, etc.). Some people could be really good if they practice and
are taught, and can learn many different methods. Others, like me, aren't
born with the ability to draw and will never be able to be a good drawer.
Except for stick figures. And I'm frickin' good at those. Point is, that's what channeling's like to me. Except for the fact that anyone with opposable thumbs and any level of hand-eye coordination can draw, which isn't the same as channeling. But the point is that some people are naturals, but learn through their own method and possibly develop quirks and blocks. Others are potentially able, but only become good, controlled channelers through being taught. Finally, some are simply unable to, such as Perrin. He'll never channel, even though he's really cool. -------------------- This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai.
Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as
wolves. Current Projects: Encounters Handbook Wheel of Time 3.5 Homepage: www.towncenterproductions.com It's Funny! |
![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |