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> Not all Ogiers long, Ah, just read, I'm no good at this
Foxhead
  Posted: Jul 18 2004, 02:11 AM
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It probably means nothing, just a thing I noted; but knowing Jordan, you never know.

Ogier Gardeners (Seanchan Ogiers) don't seam to suffer from longing like the Ogiers from main continent (I'll be dead before I call it r******d). I know that it is possible that they choose only young ones that have never left steading, and keep them for some time, but that doesn't seam to be the case.
My argument, that they in reality don't long, is the fact that, at least by our knowlige, there is no steding, abandoned, or not, close to Ebou Dar, and if the Gardeners really did long, there would certainly be an extensive search for steadings, so they could keep them steady. I mean, Seanchan are to well organized, army nation to allow any slack of their soldiers, especially their best soldiers... Now, I know that it seams to a little holow, but I understand that any ebsance, from steading, longer then a coupple of months cause the beggining of longing, and the Ogiers become weary, a bit moody, weakened then their normal selves, etc...
If I missed something, or you notice a hole in this wholle ordeal, tell me...


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 07:22 PM
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The reason why Wesland Ogier long is because of the Exile:

QUOTE (BBoBA)
During the Breaking the land and sea shifted so dramatically that the stedding were lost or swallowed entirely. Those Ogier that survived the upheaval of land an sea found themselves homeless and adrift, wandering in search of their lost sanctuaries. Among Ogier, this time is known as the Exile. After many years their Longing for the peace and beauty that only existed within the stedding became so strong that they began to sicken and die. Many more died than did not. Since that time the Ogier do no leave the stedding for extensive periods. If an Ogier stays outside for too long, the Longing takes him and he begins to weaken. If he does not return, he dies. Though this was not true during the Age of Legends, the long Exile apparently sensitized the Survivors and their descendants so that all Ogier are now bound to the stedding.

The most probable is that no such thing as the Exile happened in Seanchan, and so Seanchan Ogier aren't as firmly bound to steddings as are Westland Ogiers, and so can freely travel where they want without fearing the Longing.

The other possibility is that, since it takes some years before the Longing begins to be a problem, they are not in a hurry of finding steddings.
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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 10:45 PM
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It doesn't make much sense that only maincontinent (sorry, but, for me, westland is the place beyond the waste, since no one's really sure what's it's reall name) ogiers were striked by exile. I mean, the whole worlld was changed in the braking... And as I sead, the way I understand it, longing strikes ogier fairly quickly after the leave the stedding, but it needs a coupple of years to strike them havilly enough to start to physicaly suffer from it, but, as I said, The seanchan have to good military organisation to allow any faults within their army, and especially with their best wariors, and an itching fealling in the back of their mind can be described as a fault


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 20 2004, 12:24 AM
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QUOTE
sorry, but, for me, westland is the place beyond the waste, since no one's really sure what's it's reall name


If you are refering to what is generally called Shara, it's east of the waste...so could hardly be called the Westlands, unless you mean west of Seanchan, and god knows how large that ocean is.


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 20 2004, 10:55 AM
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When I say westlands, I mean the lands that are west of the Waste. Just like, on real earth, West countries usually mean Europe, USA and Canada. As this land doesn't have any name (unlike Shara, the Aiel Waste and Seanchan), it's the best name I can think of.

Anyway, as for the longing, the only things we have info on is westland Ogiers. The BBoBA only speaks of them. We don't know anything about Shara Ogier (we don't even know if there are some) and know very little about Seanchan Ogier (just that they are different from Westland Ogiers).

The reason why Seanchan Ogier could not suffer about the longing (this is only a hypothesis) is because quite a number of things went differently in Seanchan (ter'anreal making was not lost until the Hawking conquest; at first, Portal Stone travel was not forgotten, ...). As being a separate continent, it is possible that male channelers were taken care of more efficently; after all, Seanchan Aes Sedai were really different of Westland Aes Sedai. If the breaking was not as terrible, then maybe the Exile didn't take place, and so the longing isn't a problem.

Even if the breaking went the same way in Seanchan and Weslands, it still takes a few years before the longing becomes a physical suffering. Just look at Loial: sure he misses the steddings, but not a lot more than someone who never went away of his home and wants to go back home. The longing is the physical need to go back to the stedding. So before the Seanchan Ogier are in danger, there is still a few years to go by. And in this case, Seanchan are used to this problem, as they probably have the same problem in Seanchan (steddings are not all over the place, even in Seanchan, just at a few chosen points), so are probably used to deal with this sort of problem.
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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 20 2004, 10:15 PM
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Sorry, my mistake. I accidentaly mixed Seanchan Continent and the place the Sea folk reffer as to the isles of mad, or something like that. Since the isles of mad don't strike me as geniual name, I called them westlands, beause, as I earlier mentioned, somehow mixed them with seanchan. I repeat, my mistake.

I disagree on the matter of Loial, He is showing some serious signs of beeing wery unwell, because of beeing outside of steading for more then tree years (correct me if I'm not remembering well).


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE (Foxhead)
Sorry, my mistake. I accidentaly mixed Seanchan Continent and the place the Sea folk reffer as to the isles of mad, or something like that. Since the isles of mad don't strike me as geniual name, I called them westlands, beause, as I earlier mentioned, somehow mixed them with seanchan. I repeat, my mistake.

Well, yes, it would be better to call them the Southlands... wink.gif, although Land of the Madmen is quite suggestive.

QUOTE (Foxhead)
I disagree on the matter of Loial, He is showing some serious signs of beeing wery unwell, because of beeing outside of steading for more then tree years (correct me if I'm not remembering well).

Here are a few quotes on the matter:

QUOTE (TGH @ Chap 35, p 503)
"Do you need to stay here awhile?" Rand asked anxiously. "There's no need to kill yourself to go with us."

"I will know it when it comes." Loial laughed. "It will be long before it is strong enough to cause harm to me. Why, Dalar spent ten years among the Sea Folk without ever seeing a stedding, and she came safely home. [...] Besides, [...] it is a dull life in the stedding compared to traveling with three ta'veren."

QUOTE (LoC @ Chap 20, p 444-445)
"How long has he been out of the stedding?"

[...] "- more than five years now," Erith said.

[...] "He told me of an Ogier who stayed out longer," Rand said quietly. "Ten years, I think he said."

Haman was shaking his massive head before Rand finished. "It will not do. That I know of, five have remained Outside that long and survived to return, and I think I would know if more had. Such madness would be written about and talked about. Three of those died within a year of coming home, the fourth was an invalid for the rest of his life, and the fifth little better, needing a stick to walk. Though she did continue writing. Um. Um. Dalar had some interesting things to say concerning- " This time when Covril opened her mouth, his head whipped around; he stared at her, long eyebrows humping up, and she began smoothing her skirts furiously. But she stared right back. "Five years is a short time, I know," Haman told Rand, while watching Covril sharply from the corner of his eye, "but we are tied to the stedding now. We heard nothing in the city to indicate that Loial is here - and from the excitement we ourselves caused, I think we would have - but if you will tell us where he is, you will be doing him a very great kindness."
"The Two Rivers," Rand said. Saving a friend's life was not betraying him. "When I last saw him, he was setting out in good company, with friends. It's a quietplace, the Two Rivers. Safe." It was now, again, thanks to Perrin. "And he waswell a few months ago."

QUOTE (CoT @ Chap 24, p667-669)
Loial looked worn and gaunt. His coat was rumpled and hung loosely on him. It was dangerous for an Ogier to be outside the stedding too long, and Loial had left his home a good five years ago. Maybe those brief visits over the last few months had not been enough for him. "Maybe you should go home now, Loial. Stedding Shangtai is a only a few days from here. "

Loial's chair creaked alarmingly as he sat bolt upright. His ears shot upright, too, in alarm. "My mother will be there, Rand. She's a famous Speaker. She would never miss a Great Stump."

From this, we can gather the following facts:
  • The more time an Ogier spends out of a stedding, the more the need to go back to one is strong. But the Longing only gets into play after a more than 5 years, and Ogier can feel the need to go back to a stedding.
  • The maximum length that an Ogier can spend outside of a stedding is 10 years. And it is dangerous to stay such a long time away from a stedding (from the 5 that did such a thing, only 2 survived, and were wounded for the rest of their lifes).
  • In LoC, Loial has been away a stedding for 5 years. And 5 years is a short time. But he does look tired in CoT, even though doesn't seem to be suffering from the Longing. And he certainly doesn't want to go back to a stedding for the time being.
So I would guess that the maximum time you can spend without any danger is something like 7 years. And you would certainly be tired by that time, although not endangered.
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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 09:39 PM
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Ok, I admit partial defeat. The thing is, all of my books exept DR, and SR are out with my friends, and a I din't have a necesary data. But I bellive that the only reason Loial does not appear to be suffering from the Longing at CoT is because he had the opportunity to make brief steading wisits, look at it this way... He, and the Asha'man, I can't remember his name, were on a mission to go off, and seall all of the waygates, and they were traveling by gateways( no pun intended, but there), which are, mostly, at the edges of the Steadings, and before they could seall it off, they had to convince the ogier elders to allow them to do that, and with the empty steadings, all he had to do was make a step, and there... You must admit it has logic...
and I still stand that, only a few months after an Ogier leaves the steading, he begins to feall longing, but the fealing is so small, insignificant, and far in the back of his head, that he doesn't even notices, or understand what it is...


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 11:16 PM
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Loial was on his own and outside the stedding for 3 years before running into our Heroes in Eye of the World, and is in rather good shape then. As he said it takes awhile for the Longing to settle in, definitly longer than a few months. As for the Seanchan like most I don't think they suffer from the Longing because there was no long exile as there was for the Western Ogier. According to Loial it appears there was no Longing before the Breaking of the World, only after when they apparently went years, if not decades (or longer), before beginning to find the Stedding again.


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