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> The Ages, how does it go again?
Zinuk
Posted: Jul 29 2004, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE (Niveus)
even when whole the prison wasn't perfect leanfer coukd sence the DO and she made the bore to access the power.


Lanfear didn't sense the DO. She sensed a power that seemed to be usable by both male and female. As the only thing that attracted her is power, she though it could give channelers even more power, so she sought to tap it. And, doing so, she bored the prison. But it was only an accident. She had no idea of what she was really doing. She was only satisfying her hunger for power.

QUOTE ( Niveus)
If rand was reborn after a mere 3000 years why not the forsaken? why not Dark friends? and just as rand is very simiular to lewis therin so to would the other reborn and Evil would remain Evil so as they were bent to the dark ones will they would continue to work at his relaese there for he would still have an influence on the world all though inderectly


Before the bore in the DO's prison, Lanfear and all other Forsaken didn't torture people for pleasure (well, perhaps Semirhage did, but that was because she was a masochist). They were certainly not the best intented person in the world (Semirhage was a masochist, Lanfear wanted power, ...) but if the DO had not set free, they would never have done all the horrors they did, because it would never had been allowed.

And if they are reborn in the next Age, say the fourth Age, and that the DO's prison is whole again, they would not know the prison even exist, so how could they work to free him? And how could people be Darkfriends if they don't even know that the DO exists? Even people that could get really evil under the right circumstances could be "normal" people under other circumstances, even if there is an evil in them that only asks to express itself.

Thus, if the prison is whole, the DO would have no influence whatsoever, even indirectly. But this doesn't mean that men can't be evil. Just that their evil is not due to the DO. And this also mean that this evil can be contained by an utopian society (like the AoL).
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Axel
Posted: Jul 29 2004, 06:33 PM
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He could have plenty of effect indirectly. Remember that in the form of Myth stories can be passed about 2 Ages after it happened. The DO is a little hard to forget, his direct influence isn't needed for people to be darkfriends, they just need to think they are. Through the Fourth Age the people would remember Tarmon Gaidon, they would remember the Dark One's existance. Another important point: even without the DO's direct influence shadowspawn can continue to exist. Trollocs have their own society, they could easily continue without any intervention by the DO. The biggest difference is that they'd probably kill all Mydraal at birth.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 29 2004, 06:51 PM
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Correction, Semirhage was a sadist, not a massochist. Sadists like to hurt others, massochists like to hurt themselves.


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 29 2004, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre)
Correction, Semirhage was a sadist, not a massochist. Sadists like to hurt others, massochists like to hurt themselves.

Oops! I always mix them up. Sorry for that.

QUOTE (Axel)
He could have plenty of effect indirectly. Remember that in the form of Myth stories can be passed about 2 Ages after it happened. The DO is a little hard to forget, his direct influence isn't needed for people to be darkfriends, they just need to think they are. Through the Fourth Age the people would remember Tarmon Gaidon, they would remember the Dark One's existance. Another important point: even without the DO's direct influence shadowspawn can continue to exist. Trollocs have their own society, they could easily continue without any intervention by the DO. The biggest difference is that they'd probably kill all Mydraal at birth.

What I was saying only concerned Ages where the DO's existence has been forgotten. It was implicit in what I was saying, but you are right, I should have mentioned it.

As for the 4th Age, I was thinking exactly the same thing: it would be an age where the world tried to forget the DO, by exterminating shadowspawns, healing the blight and killing all Darkfriends.

Besides this very important task, there would be the problem of channelers: Asha'man vs Aes Sedai; everything depends on how Black and White Tower are going to interact between each other. And there is also the matter of the Seanchan. For all these matter, though, I fear that we don't have enough info until we read the last book of the series, which means waiting at least something like 3 or 4 years sad.gif
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 30 2004, 12:05 AM
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On the Ogier issues (yes I have the BBoBa) Ogier are definitly NOT constructs, at least not from the Age of Legends. The guide specificall states on page 191:

QUOTE
They (the Ogier) are also the only natural nonhuman sentient race known. (Creatures such as Nym and Trollocs are constructs the therefore artificial.)


If they were genetically engineered it would need to be in an earlier age but personally I think they came through Portal Stones.



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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jul 30 2004, 09:36 PM
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I agree with your thoughts on that E_E. I believe that either, 1) they all leave a world at one point in the turning of the wheel and go to some other world only to return at a later Age. Or 2) continuing with the timeline I laid out, they are killed off along with all human kind before dinosaurs come around, and eventually arrive from another world like Adam and Eve did maybe later than them, or maybe they were came with them when they "fell" from Eden. They were probably the gardeners of Eden.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 30 2004, 10:20 PM
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Bear in mind that each turning of an Age would be dependant on 2 factors; 1) A major event that marks the "official" end of the age and 2) The death of all people with living memory of the major event. In an era where there are people who live hundreds of years at a time, an Age can last for thousands of years, not including the major event.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jul 30 2004, 10:47 PM
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Yep, that is why I sited things like the Flood or similar events as things marking the end of an Age. I guess according to your guidlines, it would require the death of Noah and his sons and their wives before you could really say the Age ends, but that is sort of a technicality.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 31 2004, 01:06 AM
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Right, like you could say that the Sealing of the Bore Marked the end of the Age of Legends, or the opening of it in the first place, or the Breaking, but the true end of the Age of Legends was when the last Aes Sedai who lived during the Age of Legends died.


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amylrins_peril
Posted: Aug 8 2004, 06:51 AM
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I almost hate to jump in on this one ... but since my feet are wet, I might as well go all the way in ... and drown.

1. Randland IS earth ... but time and the perception of time is not linear (such as it is in western civilization). This is the biggest hurdle to overcome when talking about the Ages. It doesn't translate well into our thought processes. That's why the legends of Arthur/Artur Hawkwing and all those stories of Mosk the Giant/Russia and Annya the Great Counselor/Ann Landers occur both in the past and the future.

2. The DO is here to stay. Whether he "touches" the world in the same way is debatable. It was human arrogance and pride that "set him free." But the fact is the failings and sin of humanity already existed to be exploited. So no matter whatever happens at the end of the Third Age, human suffering won't end. Hopefully, there will be at least be party before the Wheel Turns Again.

3. My best guess (for whatever it is worth): The Illusions -- the ability to channel -- will be lost to the Fourth Age. Our romantic notions of magic and the supernatural will be replaced by an age of Reason. (What we've got right now.) Science will supplant the supernatural until the next great confrontation with the DO, thus rolling into the Fifth Age. The fact is Rand is preparing the world for the age of reason, which is why he is assembling the world's great thinkers and inventors into these colleges. Matt is preparing for the invention of gunpowder, and all that it portends. And "Lord" Perrin is trying to dislodge the notion of a privileged aristocracy, paving the way for republican or representative government.

Now, will someone please throw me a life preserver before I go under?
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Aug 8 2004, 09:04 PM
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I agree....for the most part. Although I think the 4th Age (personally) is going to be a mix of the One Power and technology and the ability to channel will be lost likely in the 5th Age or so. But it's just my opinion and conjecture and based more on preference than any logic or reasoning wink.gif


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Axel
Posted: Aug 10 2004, 12:07 AM
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Hold it! We've hit a major snag. Our first assumption is that there are 7 Ages because of the 7 spokes on the Wheel (although we are ignoring the statements that the snake consuming its own tail {infinity} is an older symbol of eternity) However we also feel reasonably certain that no event could be remembered more than 3 Ages. The snag is this: we find references in WoT of our time while we also recognize elements of our own history and legend in it. This can't possibly work out, otherwise one age or another is remembering things that it deffinitely shouldn't be able to. Taking our assumption that the oldest myth possible is 3 Ages previously (-2 Age) then for the 3rd age to remember us and us them there can only be 4 Ages.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Aug 10 2004, 03:47 AM
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I'm of the belief that our current time is the Age before the Age of Legends, or perhaps the one before that (this is the one I favour). That hardly precludes the 3rd Age of having some mythological story based on events from our Age. The Serpent of infinity predates the Wheel of Time yes, but I hardly see how that can possibly detract from assuming there are 7 Ages because there are seven spokes. What other reason would there be for 7 spokes on the Wheel? For that matter if it was irelevant why would they point out that there are seven spokes?

Of course since time is circular really there is no set number of Ages...


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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 10 2004, 03:18 PM
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One thing that has not been mentioned is that although "the myth is long forgotten when the Age that brought it comes again" it doesn't mean that the myth is forgotten the age after it becomes myth. The myth could last until just until the one age prior to the age of its birth. In other words, The myth of Age 0 would last from Age +3 until Age -2, then be lost by Age -1 thus being long forgotten by the begining of Age 0 (remember that Age +3 is also Age -4).


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Axel
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 02:54 AM
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But remember: the Age +2 is pretty much the maximum lenght anything can be remembered. Even if we go as far as Age +3 that still leaves us at least an Age short. I propose the possibility that the 7 spokes don't actually mean anything.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 05:57 AM
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The do mean something. We don't know what kind of understanding of the wheel that people (or a person) had at some point. It is probable that the symbols of the wheel and the serpent are much older than just two ages. It could be that someone, perhaps with some Talent gained a great understanding for the wheel and this is where the the symbol of the Wheel was developed. That's the way that I think it happened.


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Targul
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 06:18 AM
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Last paragraph page 13 of the BBOBA.


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I was that which others did not want to be.
I went where others feared to go, and did what others failed to do.
I asked nothing from those who gave nothing, and reluctantly accepted the fact of eternal loneliness...
Should I fall I have seen the face of terror, felt the stinging cold of fear, and enjoyed the sweet taste of a moments love.
I have cried, pained, and hoped...
But most of all I have lived times others were to say were "Best Forgotten".
At least some day I will be able to say that I was proud of what I was...
A United States Marine
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 03:40 PM
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You can't just jump on here like a cowboy and site pages and books. smile.gif Not everyone can bare the art enough to buy the book. Give the quote as well as the reference, if you please.


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Axel
Posted: Aug 13 2004, 02:52 AM
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Yeah don't own the stinking book of bad art. If it ain't in the books themselves I can't look it up.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Aug 13 2004, 03:28 AM
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QUOTE
In this world there is no one beginning or one end, for each spoke of the great Wheel representes one of the seven Ages, receding into the past an returning in the future as the Wheel spins, the fabric of each age changing only its weave and pattern with each passing.


That's the gist of it anyway. So I don't think you can propose or argue anything against it, given the BBOBA is canon.


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