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> The Ages, how does it go again?
Llewin
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 08:04 PM
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Agreed... So, DO we have myths about our actions and does Rand's age have any myths about theirs? smile.gif
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Axel
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 09:42 PM
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It flat out doesn't work. Look, right now we are considering ourselves as in the 1st Age and them the 3rd. That explains how they remember us. However if there are 7 ages then we are remembering them with surprising detail even 4-6 Ages later (depending on whether you want to count theirs and ours) This brings memory of themselves pretty damn close, only 2 Ages off. If you count that we may even have scattered remnants of the AoL....

As for names, need I draw obvious conclusions:
Artur Hawkwing = King Arthur
Stone of Tear & Callandor = The Sword and the Stone
Hawkwing's Empre = Alexander's Empire
Age of Legends = Golden Age of Camelot


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 09:58 PM
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Arthur and Alexander were two very different people.
Age of Legends is Camelot? I always understood it was a lot more modern than that.
Didn't Hawkwing and everything happen a lot sooner than to be myths? Isn't the Stone of Tear up as we read the books?

This post has been edited by Two Rivers Wolfbrother on Aug 27 2004, 10:01 PM


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 09:58 PM
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Sorry, double post.

This post has been edited by Two Rivers Wolfbrother on Aug 27 2004, 10:01 PM


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 09:58 PM
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Whoa, triple post?

This post has been edited by Two Rivers Wolfbrother on Aug 27 2004, 10:02 PM


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 09:59 PM
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What the crap?

This post has been edited by Two Rivers Wolfbrother on Aug 27 2004, 10:02 PM


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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (Axel @ Aug 27 2004, 07:42 PM)
It flat out doesn't work. Look, right now we are considering ourselves as in the 1st Age and them the 3rd. That explains how they remember us. However if there are 7 ages then we are remembering them with surprising detail even 4-6 Ages later (depending on whether you want to count theirs and ours) This brings memory of themselves pretty damn close, only 2 Ages off. If you count that we may even have scattered remnants of the AoL....

As for names, need I draw obvious conclusions:
Artur Hawkwing = King Arthur
Stone of Tear & Callandor = The Sword and the Stone
Hawkwing's Empre = Alexander's Empire
Age of Legends = Golden Age of Camelot

This is one reason that I am suggesting that we accept that there might be another Age between the Age of Legends and the Age of Illusions. It is very much possible. There are even a few events that can qualify for key events for the Age (eg; the Trolloc Wars, the War of the Hundred Years, the Consolidation, etc.). With this in mind, that places us at Age -3 from AoI and it places the AoI at Age -3 from us, making it less of a stretch that they may have myths of us and us of them.


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Guest
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 01:10 AM
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I don't mean to sound like a spoiled sport but is it even remotely possible that the reason they have myths about us is because Robert Jordan wanted give us something to relate to? I mean how interesting would the 'man who flew to the moon' or 'merica' references be if we couldn't catch on to them?
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Zinuk
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 07:15 PM
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That the references are here for us is one thing, that they are inconsistent with the universe is another - and I don't think RJ would make such a mistake. The world he invented is just too coherent for that.

One thing we seem to have forgotten here is that during some Ages, like the Age of Legend for example, or during our Age, there stops to be loss of information, because it becomes very easy to keep track of everything (Internet, TV, ... or whatever; you get the idea). This means that, during some Ages, myths and legends can survive far longer than just 1 or 2 Ages.

The one problem we still have is the Stone Age. Unless oral tradition is strong enough to prepetuate myths like Arthur etc., it seems unlikely that anything would survive.

Another thing I would like to point out is that chess-like game that Moridin plays. It seems that Rand inspired the design of one of the piece, which means that some myths can survive a whole cycle of the 7 Ages, although their origin would be long forgotten.
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Llewin
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE
Another thing I would like to point out is that chess-like game that Moridin plays. It seems that Rand inspired the design of one of the piece, which means that some myths can survive a whole cycle of the 7 Ages, although their origin would be long forgotten.



can you quote out of the book what piece you are talking about? smile.gif
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Zinuk
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (The Path of Daggers @ End of Prologue)
The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers. The reasons, like the source of the name, were lost in the mist of time. That troubled him sometimes, enraged him, what nowledge might be lost in the turnings of the Wheel, knowledge he needed, knowledge he had a right to. A right!
Slowly he set the Fisher back on the board. Slowly his fingers uncurled from around the cour'souvra. There was no need for destruction. Yet. Icy calm replaced age in the blink of an eye. Blood and wine dripped from his gashed hand, unnoticed. Perhaps the Fisher did come from some dim remnant of a memory of Rand al'Thor, the shadow of a shadow.

From what we know of what will happen to Rand, there is little doubt as to what the Fisher refers to. But, of course, it comes from a myth so old that everything about it was long forgotten even during the AoL.

The only way Moridin could figure out anything about it was his access to 3rd Age knowledge, which is precisely the Age from which the myth comes from.
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Llewin
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 09:33 PM
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Ok the blood on his hand over his side is obvious, how about the bandage over his eyes? i thought the losing an eye thing was mat's prophecy?
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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 09:37 PM
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Okay, first, the fact that Moridin was able to figure out that Rand inspired the original design of the Fisher comes in part from the fact that he a) is from the AoL, so it is possible for the "shadow of a shadow" of a myth to exist there, thus any who are from that age would logically have access to that knowledge and cool.gif he was only able to put the pieces together because he had the AoL knowledge (which he admitted means that knowledge was lost even in the AoL) and he was experiencing the "original" events that created the legend that fed the myth that inspired the "dim remnant of a memory of Rand al Thor, the shadow of a shadow." If you or I lived long enough to see the cycle come around to Rand al Thor, we would likely see what myths were inspired by him and recognize him as the source of those myths. Likewise, if he lived long enough to see Lenn fly to the moon in the belly of an eagle, he would recognize that as the source of that myth.


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 30 2004, 09:56 PM
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Ok, so how does rand being the origin of a myth from 7 ages ago jive with the idea that the events of each age don't exactly match with each turning...

We should believe that in every age of illusions that passes the dragon is injured in his side?
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Axel
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 12:55 AM
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I have an Idea. One so radical many of you may find it hard to accept. I propose that there are Half-Ages. Things we're going to invent right now to reconcile all our problems. There are only 7 Ages and Half-Ages combined. A very rough outline:
0 Age- Creation and stuff that precedes humanity
.5 Age- Devolopment of human culture before the Power (first half of 1st age
1 Age- Power is discovered
2 Age- AoL
2.5 Age- between Breaking and Trolloc Wars (first half of 3rd Age)
3 Age- between Trolloc Wars and Final Battle
4 Age- stuff
5 Age- civilization collapses

The difference between an Age and a Half-Age is this: A Half-Age turning is typically ignored (our numbering now works out) and is not marked by so dramatic a change as an Age (which is why it goes unremarked)


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Aleshandre
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE (Llewin @ Aug 30 2004, 07:56 PM)
Ok, so how does rand being the origin of a myth from 7 ages ago jive with the idea that the events of each age don't exactly match with each turning...

We should believe that in every age of illusions that passes the dragon is injured in his side?

Okay, first, Moridin knows about the shadow of a shadow of a myth, because he is from the age prior to the AoI (2 prior if you agree with me that there should be another age between the AoL and AoI). What he knows isn't as significant as what he doesn't know. He doesn't know the actual orgin of the Fisher. He doesn't know why it is called the fisher, or why the piece is designed the way it is. He suspects that its source is Rand from an earlier turning of the Wheel, but he does not know that. Moridin is the only one who has even an inkling of an idea that the two may be connected, so the myth has been long forgotten, since the game ceased to exist during the AoL and the myth that inspired it had been long forgotten before Moridin learned the game.
Second, the major events of each turning must be similar and may even be identical in any 2 given turnings. Indeed, it is possible that with the infinite number of turnings of the wheel that there must be exact repitition of any given major event. It is possible that each turning resulted in Rand being wounded in his side, or that the instance that inspired the Fisher he was. Given that each time the Dragon is spun out, he is a leader of armed combat and that there are a limited number of places on the body to take wounds and the comparitive size of the torso, compared to other parts of the body, it is probable that each turning would result in a wound to either the left or right side.


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Axel
Posted: Sep 3 2004, 02:33 AM
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We know he has to die (actually no we don't. All we're given is: "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul." this only implies death) and you are right, the most probable place for him to be hit is the torso. And that's assuming that all turnings of the Wheel are not identical... wait....

How about this: We abandon the question of forgetting, what if:
Every 2 turnings of the Wheel results in direct repetition. What if we are not part of the turning with randland but are instead on the second turning? In major events their 7 Ages resemble ours, but are not identical. After ours is over theirs will repeat, then ours, then theirs. If we stretch the bounds of rememberance this might just cover our paradox and free us of the restraints of including ourselves in their Turning.


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 3 2004, 07:09 PM
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Hmmm... Axel, not sure what the 2 turnings thing would do to make it more acceptable to stretch the bounds of remembrance though... If we stretch them a bit without the duplication theory you propose it still gets rid of the paradox.

As Ale mentioned the only shadow of a myth we have evidence of being in the age which it brought about is the Fisher, which is not truly in that age as it belongs to the memory of a man from the 2nd age who is only able to make the connection because he lived beyond his age.

So long as MYTH is forgotten (which even in the case of the Fisher the myth has been forgetten long enough that Moridin is only able to conjecture about possibility) by the time the age that created it comes again there is no paradox as i see it.

~llewin
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Sep 5 2004, 07:43 PM
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Exactly, the whole opening sequence only says and finally myth is long forgotten by the time the age that gave it's birth comes again. It doesn't say that Myth vanishes once the next age hits. So I really don't see why there is a paradox.


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Niveus
Posted: Sep 6 2004, 01:23 AM
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QUOTE (Llewin @ Aug 30 2004, 02:33 PM)
Ok the blood on his hand over his side is obvious, how about the bandage over his eyes? i thought the losing an eye thing was mat's prophecy?

I think its symbolic it says blinding his eyes not that he his blind simular to how Justice is always sculpted as having a blindfold/bandage over her eyes thus making her blind


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