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> Heroes of the Horn, Like a big, giant, watermelon
Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 06:13 AM
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A few questions about the Heroes of the Horn:
How are they chosen? Did/does the Creator just say "You're now a Hero of the Horn?" Or did they all come from the same era, like the Forsaken?
Could there be a channeling Hero of the Horn? Is that possible? I'm not asking if there IS one, I'm just asking if that's possible.
What ones have been named in various sources? There are the obvious ones like Birgitte and Gaidal Cain, but are there some named in, say, the BBoBA?
Thanks!


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drothgery
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 07:02 AM
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Artur Hawkwing tells Hurin that others have joined their number, over time (implying that Hurin could become a Hero), so I think it's safe to say that they were not all bound to the horn at the same time.


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Niveus
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 09:41 AM
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mat is most definitly a hero of the horm not only did he blow it but he also uses it to fill in the gaps of his memory

perrin probably is too


as to how you get linked to it good question

to get permenantly linked to it a person must have done somthing of note while in the service of light and never wavered in this respect until the end of thier days

not quite right but close i think


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 10:51 AM
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I see. Interesting.
Could a channeler be a Hero?


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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 04:54 PM
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Rand is most definitely a Hero of the Horn. Artur Hawkwing recognized him as Lews Therin, so the Dragon/Dragon Reborn is a Hero of the Horn, which means that yes, channelers can become heroes of the Horn.


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Niveus
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre @ Aug 11 2004, 09:54 AM)
Rand is most definitely a Hero of the Horn. Artur Hawkwing recognized him as Lews Therin, so the Dragon/Dragon Reborn is a Hero of the Horn, which means that yes, channelers can become heroes of the Horn.

I would say rand is only the dragon reborn his legend is seperate from the horn of valor's as lewis therin would be far more famous/infamous then artur hawking was/is if the horn was tied to rand it would have been feared rather then praised but I agree channlers could be tied to the horn


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 09:10 PM
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Actually the Dragon Reborn is only feared because a)He's a Male Channeler and cool.gif He's prophecied to break the world. During the Age of Legends, Lews Therin was loved more than he was feared. Being the main General for the forces of good sort of does that for you. smile.gif

Mat does not gain his memories from the Horn, his memories come from the 'finn when he went through the doorway Ter'angreal in Rhuidean. They filled the gaps in his memory as he requested. Robert Jordan has hinted this will be explained more or at least come into play in Book 11, Knife of Dreams.

When Mat blows the Horn to drive off the Seanchan at Falme there were little more than 100 there. From the sound of things people can become bound to the Wheel as a Hero of the Horn but it requires more than mere bravery....so you have to be a hero smile.gif


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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (Niveus @ Aug 11 2004, 06:44 PM)
I would say rand is only the dragon reborn his legend is seperate from the horn of valor's as lewis therin would be far more famous/infamous then artur hawking was/is if the horn was tied to rand it would have been feared rather then praised

First, the fact that Rand al Thor looks nothing like the descriptions of LTT makes it impossible for Artur Hawkwing to recognize him as the Dragon, short of recognizing the soul. Second, the Dragon was and is tied to the Wheel to be reborn again and again as needed by the pattern, so that makes him a Hero of the Horn. No others are said to be tied to the pattern. The Forsaken may be reborn as well, though that could be lies on the part of the Forsaken to try and sway Rand and co. It is also possible that each of the Forsaken who is spun out over and over were at one time Heroes of the Horn, but because they hadn't died, they were not called by the Horn when Mat blew it. Ishamael said that he had fought the Dragon over and over, but remember that he was also familiar with Portal Stones, so it may simply be that he knew the possible outcomes of each battle against the Dragon. He may not actually be spun out more than the once.


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Chiz
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 05:49 AM
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When Matt blew the horn the first time didn't Artur satat to Rand that they had ridden to many battles together and there was only one thing missing from the one they were about to have- the banner. This I believe shows that at least rand/Lew's spirit is attached to the horn. They were from different eras right? Also in order to get tied don't you have to be ta'veran? Artur was one of the strongest besides ltt. Just some thoughts I had.


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Zarozynia
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 08:59 AM
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I dont buy into the Rand/Horner thing, and here is why: if Rand is bound to the horn, why does he need a banner?

I personally think that he is a seperate soul, something more, the Christ figure of the peice.

After all, there can be only one. Likewise, Ishmael seems to be different as well. He says something, I think, about the battle between the dragon and the dark one going on from the beginning, and his belief that he has been there as well. Am I making this up or misremembering? Not certain.

But the battle between the Dragon and the Dark One is older than the horn. So how can they be connected?


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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 03:50 PM
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Artur Hawkwing said it himself, "We answer to the Horn, but we can only ride after whoever carries the Banner." Even if Rand/LTT was called by the Horn, before being spun out normally, he would have to follow whoever carried the Banner. The Heroes of the Horn are bound to the Horn and the Dragon Banner.


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Axel
Posted: Aug 13 2004, 03:03 AM
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Why don't we simplify it. Ok? For simplicity's sake I will make the following assumptions:
1. Everybody is bound to the Wheel- The Wheel spins out souls which become threads of the pattern. Everyone is reborn even those who forsake the Light, the Forsaken are destined to be reborn.
2. Only Heroes are bound in their way- Most souls are set on hold until being reborn. Heroes are kept handy in Tel'aran'rhiod so that they can be quickly summoned. Like the minutemen always keeping their muskets at the ready near the door, the Heroes are always available should the Call come. Unfortunately this makes them vulnerable in a special way, as Moghedien showed.
3. New Heroes can be bound- Those who are involved in major battles or are incredibly important people and demonstrate not only bravery but also skill can be bound to the Horn. They are then spun out as the Heroes are, always to be available should the horn be blown.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Aug 13 2004, 03:32 AM
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Souls, aka Threads, are reused. I know your point and perhaps it is simply semantics on my part, but I dislike saying all souls are bound to the Wheel, given that being "bound to the Wheel" is the exact wording the Heroes of the Horn use to describe their circumstances.


The Horn of Valere was old even before the Age of Legends, perhaps at one point it is created but remember that even if it is destroyed in one Age it will be remade at some point.



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Axel
Posted: Aug 15 2004, 06:55 PM
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By the circular nature of the Wheel the Horn must be destroyed and remade. And all the souls who were bound to it will be reborn and rebound.


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Posted: Aug 16 2004, 05:30 PM
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Forgive me for still nitpicking this point, but according to the collective oppinion of the board members, anybody who is reborn to the wheel directly must be a hero of the horn?

Then Ishmael is one, too. In The Great Hunt Rand and Ishmael have a conversation while they are in Falme about how their souls have battled each other, or faught beside each other, since the beginning of time. that works with Rand being reborn forever, but also means that Ishmael was as well, and that he always is a champion of the dark one which to me means that he is also reborn to the wheel as the same soul.

I bring this up to point out that to call Rand a hero of the horn seems to belittle who he is. In fact, one might suspect that whomever created the horn of valere did so in the image of the dragon, but Rand, being the champion of light, should be seen as more than purely a hero of the horn. Just because he is recognized by Artur Hawkwing does not mean that he must be a hero, because if the heroes are bound to the horn and follow the banner of the dragon they would have met his soul before for other reasons.
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Axel
Posted: Aug 17 2004, 05:49 PM
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That's kinda what I said. Everyone is bound to the Wheel to be reborn.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 17 2004, 07:06 PM
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As pointed out earlier, Ishamael is mad, so we can't take his word at face value. To further cloud that arguement, he was also claiming to be the Dark One at that time. It is possible that he was bound to the Wheel at one time, but given two facts (namely that he never died at the end of the AoL and that he is linked to the DO), it is possible that either a) his tie was severed or B) since he hasn't died (without being given a new body by the Dark One), his sould can't be called by the Horn, since it isn't in Tel'aran'rhiod any more than the Dragon can. RJ also said that once the Last Battle came to a draw, because the Dragon fought for the Dark One, so if the Dragon can be the champion of the Light and fight for the Dark One, then a Hero of the Horn can still fight for the Dark One and when he dies, still be called by the Horn of Valere.

This post has been edited by Aleshandre on Aug 17 2004, 07:08 PM


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 18 2004, 01:19 AM
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QUOTE
As pointed out earlier, Ishamael is mad, so we can't take his word at face value.  To further cloud that arguement, he was also claiming to be the Dark One at that time.


If I am not mistaken, Ishamael never actually said he was the Dark One. He called himself Baalzamon which again, if my memory serves, is a trolloc word meaning heart of the dark and which the denizens of randland equate with a name for the dark one. However, that sounds like a pretty good name for Shaitan's right hand man.

QUOTE
a Hero of the Horn can still fight for the Dark One and when he dies, still be called by the Horn of Valere.


In support of this statement, How about we take a good look at Artur Hawkwing. Granted the last time he was spun in to the pattern he wasnt exactly following the dark one on purpose but by the end of his life, we are told by the self-same Ishamael mentioned above that he was doing the dark one's will in beginning and continuing his attack and hatred on aes sedai.

All of that said, I was under the impression that only people of certain special quality were tied to the wheel and reused as the pattern had need of them and that the everyday run of the mill sort lived one life and died never to be reborn.

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Axel
Posted: Aug 18 2004, 03:39 AM
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No, that can't work. We know that as the Wheel turns the Ages repeat themselves. The only way they can do that is if the important people are reborn to repeat their mistakes, but there's no reason to think that important figures are Heroes. Also we know that the mythology of the 3rd Age holds that people who walk in the Light will be reborn. It follows that indeed everyone is reborn which is the source of the mythos.
Besides we know that RJ tried to work in physics as much as possible, so I propose a Law of Conservation of Souls: A soul can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change forms.
One final note: The Creator does not interfere with the world. Therefore the Horn was created by men. If that is the case it must be destroyed in order to be remade. If the Horn is destroyed and only it is what binds souls to the Wheel then it follows that all the Heroes would be lost when it was destroyed. However we know that these Heroes must be reborn. We also know from multiple sources that they have been through many lives and know each other well. (Ishmael [twice], Hawkwing, Birgitte)


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Aug 18 2004, 08:46 AM
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QUOTE
A soul can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change forms.

but what of balefire?
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