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> Vitality/ Wound system, How the hell does it work?
Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 17 2004, 11:58 PM
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Heh I like...that way if some dark Jedi pulls a critical, which goes straight to my wounds, wielding a lightsaber he doesn;t have a really damn good shot of killing me in one swipe smile.gif

But yes I really like the vitality/wound system and think it would work well in WoT, especially if you incorporate a system where channelers tap into vitality in order to use weaves as well, like Force users do in star wars.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jun 18 2004, 02:39 AM
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Zarozynia, how do you adapt abilities that increase the critical multiplier for the weapon? Such as the Blademaster ability. Do you just give a bonus to damage for critical hits, like a +2 or something like that?


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Jun 18 2004, 05:56 AM
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don't know how she does it, but the standard ruling is to increase the critical threat range instead of the multiplier. thus a mercurial greatsword would have a threat range of 17-20 instead of a multiplier of x4, and if you had an ability that would give you a +1 to the multyplier it would instead be added to the threat range so increased multiplier of +1 would result in threat range of 16-20.
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Talan
Posted: Jun 18 2004, 01:21 PM
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Regarding low level characters getting harder to kill

QUOTE
I think that is a minor point. Even if it prolongs combat, it also makes 1st level PCs harder to kill, which is a good thing.


I don't consider this a minor problem, since it doesn't just make 1. level PC's harder to kill (which I don't think is particularly good), but also makes 1. level NPC's/Villains harder to kill - which I think is really bad.
As I understand the system (?) you get the chance of killing a high-level opponent in a few (critical) blows, but you cannot kill a commoner in one attack without making a crit. ? (since they now have their Con in addition to their low HD).

I would much rather spend a lot of time fighting against the "big opponents" than prolonging combat against his many henchmen (since you have to hit them at least 2-3 times before they die, unless you crit.).

Any ideas how to solve this ?

Talan
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Freya
Posted: Jun 18 2004, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Talan @ Jun 18 2004, 11:21 AM)
I don't consider this a minor problem, since it doesn't just make 1. level PC's harder to kill (which I don't think is particularly good), but also makes 1. level NPC's/Villains harder to kill - which I think is really bad.
As I understand the system (?) you get the chance of killing a high-level opponent in a few (critical) blows, but you cannot kill a commoner in one attack without making a crit. ? (since they now have their Con in addition to their low HD).

According to Star Wars RPG, NPCs don't get vitality points. If, as GM, you decide a major NPC or NPC Baddie needs vitality points, you can give them some so that they are more robust.

So, henchmen and the like can only have wound points, so that your 1st level folks can go through them without dying and such, but the main baddie would still provide good opposition.
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LuciusT
Posted: Jun 19 2004, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (Talan @ Jun 18 2004, 11:21 AM)
I don't consider this a minor problem, since it doesn't just make 1. level PC's harder to kill (which I don't think is particularly good), but also makes 1. level NPC's/Villains harder to kill - which I think is really bad.
As I understand the system (?) you get the chance of killing a high-level opponent in a few (critical) blows, but you cannot kill a commoner in one attack without making a crit. ? (since they now have their Con in addition to their low HD).

Leaving aside the question of why are you're heroes killing commoners smile.gif, I've been using vitality/wounds for a while now and have a very simple solution. Not everyone fights to the death.

An often overlook feature of VP/WP is that when a character takes Wound damage, there is a chance they will be Stunned. For most PCs and major villians this isn't an issue, as the DC is low enough that they can reasonably resist it. However, for low level minions and thugs, it can be a valuable tool for the GM.

In my campaign, whenever a low level thug took a certain number of Wounds (usually equal to their Fort save), they become Stunned. Even when they recovered from the Stun, they mostly just lay on the ground and groaned, or tried to crawl away from the battle and live to fight another day. This effectively removed them from combat once they were out of Vitality. This also gave me the option of occationally having thugs who did fight to the death, which was something I could use to surprise/frighten/impress the players... "Despite his heavily bleeding wounds, the wild-eye Darkfriend rushes you again."
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Talan
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE
Leaving aside the question of why are you're heroes killing commoners

Well they don't - actually they are the worst bunch of do-gooders I have ever seen. They simply refuse to accept any kind of rewards etc, just helping people because they want to. Well, I gues they will get hungry sometime soon.

QUOTE
According to Star Wars RPG, NPCs don't get vitality points. If, as GM, you decide a major NPC or NPC Baddie needs vitality points, you can give them some so that they are more robust.

So against normal opponents you don't use Critical Hits ? (since Crits go directly to wounds, and they don't have Vitality points to bypass anyway).

The reason I am asking is that I don't like loooong fights, since they (IMC) tend to devolve into a die-rolling contest with a lot of: I miss, he miss, I miss, he hits you for 3 damage, etc etc (I usually play Amber, which is diceless, and where roleplaying determines the outcome of a combat).
A long fight can be OK when it is against a mjor villain or something, but I would like a system that lets the PC´s cut through his henchmen and feel powerfull (like having 4 6th level characters charge 10 1st level goons). If they have to hit 2 or 3 times instead of 1 it changes the whole combat (for me anyway).

Its great to hear about your experiences with the Vit/Wounds system, though. I haven't tested it so I don't know if there is a problem or not.

Talan
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Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (Talan @ Jun 23 2004, 11:43 AM)


QUOTE
According to Star Wars RPG, NPCs don't get vitality points. If, as GM, you decide a major NPC or NPC Baddie needs vitality points, you can give them some so that they are more robust.

So against normal opponents you don't use Critical Hits ? (since Crits go directly to wounds, and they don't have Vitality points to bypass anyway).




No, exactly the opposite. If you confirm a critical against a character that does not have vitality points, the crit is an automatic kill. It comes from starwars originally, where storm troopers are the ones with no wound points, as in, they are expendable. It is easy to kill storm troopers. Likewise, it should be easy to kill a commoner when you're used to fighting trollocs. (Mind, I'm not saying that its good to kill commoners, just that it would be easy if you tried)

Unfortunately, there are not that many creatures in wheel of time that dont have vitality points. By starwars rules, both myrddraal and trollocs would as they both have heroic classes. (Armsman) But all other shadowspawn wouldn't.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 23 2004, 07:31 PM
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If you want to make it easier for the PC to get through the combat, you can simply reduce the HP by a few points if you don't want to convert everything to VP/WP. Another good option is to institute a Massive Damage rule like in Modern, which sets the default Massive Damage Threashold (maximum damage in one hit the character/creature can take) equal to the Con of the creatures/characters, or you can set it to 10, which would kill everyone NPCs and PC faster. In Modern, failing a Fort save against massive damage renders the chatacter to -1 HP and incapacitated. Still a chance to survive, but also deadly enough to kill fast.

You could also go Diceless with combat and just use the ranks to determine how sucessful the characters are in combat and use RP to set the scene.

example:
Harman has an Attack bonus of 6/1 and a Defense of 16, two weapon fighting, Reflex 5, Fort 5 and 25 HP.

Trolloc has Attack 4, Defense 14, HP 16 Ref 3, fort 4.

use the following formula to conclude the combat:
add 10 to the Attack bonus and divide the scores as follows
Attack/defense= hit percentage. Multiply the Max Damage by the hit percent to get the damage of each attack. Divide the HP of the character with the lowest hit percentage by the damage of the attacker to determine the number of rounds that the combat would take. Subtract the total hp from each character involved. The result is most characters being wounded to some extent and the weaker force being killed.

For multiple attackers, add the ability totals and divide the total damage between each side of the combat based on the overall outcome.

In the example above, The Trolloc takes an average 9pts of damage taking a total of 2 rounds (obviously a confirmed crit is in play here) to kill.
Harman takes an average 10 per round leaving him with 5 HP after 2 rounds. Combat is concluded.

There is alot of math with this method, but I already have a basic damage calculator put together in excel for this (you didn't think that I was going to do all that math in my head did you?!).

If you want to go this route, I can set up the calculator in a more user friendly fomat and send it out. The diceless method would also work for VP/WP, since at their heart they both operate on the same basis.


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Talan
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 01:04 PM
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OK, now I get it (slow ? me ? nooo). So with the Vit/Wounds system you have a chance to kill/hurt higher level characters with a Crit. and low-level opponents are simply wasted on a crit. Thats nice.

I think I like Aleshandre's suggestion about the Massive Damage Rule better however, since thats the same rule for everyone - including the PC's (otherwise they are better by the rules, not because of their level or tactical choices).
Perhaps in WoT, with Healing being so rare and all, a failed Fort save should result in the HP's dropping to 0 ???? (since I also like LuciusT's comment that not everyone fights to the death).

Thanks for the information - you have all been very patient smile.gif

Talan
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