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> A question about the slot pool system.
joshmvii
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 12:17 AM
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Pardon me if it is clearly explained, but I didn't see this explained in UtDB:

At 1st level, a channeler gets to know so many weaves. This is restricted to 0th and 1st level weaves normally, since that is all they can cast, but if using the slot pool system, since a 1st level wilder might be able to use 4th or 5th level weaves, albeit one time before running out of power, does this mean that at 1st level said character could choose a 4th or 5th level weave to learn, since under the slot pool system they can already use weaves that powerful?

It seems this would make them pretty powerful at very low levels. I do know UtDB says they didn't take game balance into consideration making it, only realism in relation to the series, but I was just wondering if there was a certain way most people using the SP system did this.

Thanks
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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 05:38 AM
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(as posted over at the fading Wizards boards)
*doesn't use the slot system, is insanely too overpowered* If you do wanna limit the slot system, I'd say they can only safely (read: without overchanneling) cast weaves of half their level (round up). A 1st level initiate can cast 0 and 1st level weaves safely, but to cast a 2nd level weave they'd have to overchannel to increase its strength. Likewise, a 19th level aes sedai (if she took ONLY initiate/wilder and aes sedai levels) would be able to cast 10th level weaves safely. This is still very powerful, but it's better than leaving the broken rules as is.
Then again, the only gripes i have with the channeling system is there is no rules for channeling fatigue (which i changed myself). Everything else with me is just fine.
But yeah. 1/2 level (Round up) = max capable weave without overchanneling. If i used the slot system.


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joshmvii
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 07:37 AM
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Hey Magus, I have a question for you personally if you don't mind. I agree with you that the slot system is really too powerful, but i'm not very happy with the way the book system represents channeling I guess. I mean, it's not much like the books, though I understand some sacrifices have to be made in that area.

I'd like to know your thoughts on adding channeling fatigue. I read your post on the dying wotc board that gave this system:

Channeling Fatigue

Every time you use a weave, you suffer 1 point of subdual damage per level of the weave.

Effect: Upon reaching ½ your total hit points in subdual damage, you become fatigued. At ¼ total hit points, you become exhausted. As with any subdual damage, reaching 0 hit points results in falling unconscious.

Special: Upon reaching 0 hit points of subdual damage due to channeling, you may make a Will Save (DC 18) to stay awake. However, until you rest and heal the subdual damage, you take actual hit point damage when channeling.

Note: Adjusted weave levels due to affinities and angreal/sa’angreal are calculated before damage is counted.


I rewrote it to give to my players, but is that the way you've decided to use it? And has it worked for you? Do you think it might make a problem that this system basically says a wilder is (almost) always going to be able to channel more weaves before becoming fatigued than an initiate?

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Talan
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 02:36 PM
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You could make a "stat" called Power Limit (or something similar) which defines the highest number of points a Channeler can spent. Thus a 1. level Channeler could only cast Level 1 weaves safely, anything higher than that is Overchanneling.
Power Limit rises by level - you could just use the numbers from the RPG book. i.e. a Wilder reaches Power Limit 2 at Level 2, an Initiate at Level 3 etc. (which is the same thing as being able to use a Level 2 weave in the old system).

If you want to use Channeling Fatigue, why not simply say that you will be Fatigued when you have used ½ your pool, and Exhausted when you have used 3/4. Thus the Channelers HP´s doesn't matter.

Isn't the Fatigued and Exhausted states more physical. I mean, they don't affect a Channelers ability to channel (since they give penalties to STR and DEX). It might reflect the books (?), but it want stop anyone from Channeling. Maybe you could use the penalties from Overchanneling ????

Talan
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The Green Man
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 05:01 PM
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I use channeling points because it makes the most sense to me in terms of being consistent with the books. Here is the system that I use, albeit in a condensed format: (please note: I don't take any credit for this channeling system - I modified it, but I didn't create it). Also - this isn't an exact cut and paste from the other board, so you might want to give this a read-through too.

First, this channeling system requires a Power score - an additional stat that all characters have. For character generation in my campaign, characters began with an 8 in every stat and were given a number of ability points with which to 'purchase' ability scores. People who think that a channeling point system is too powerful (as you'll see down below, I very strongly feel that it isn't) will note that the need for a channeler to put points into POW, basically having one more stat that other characters have. This, in part, helps to balance the channeling classes. Characters with a Power of 9 or less are completely unable to channel, or to ever raise their Power score higher (such as through angreal and s'angreal). Power score determines how high a weave a channeler can channel. So to answer one question of yours, this means that a channeler who is 1st level may be able to channel a 4th or 5th level weave, although it may require overchanneling if she doesn't have enough channeling points. There hasn't been a balance problem with this since most channelers don't know such high level weaves when they are at such a low level, and channeling (especially by a wilder) can have dire in game consequences. My campaign isn't one where a wilder can channel a ball of fire at an individual while in a town, city, or village without serious in game repercussions.

Instead of channeling points being determined by the number of spells that a channeler can weave as given in the books, channeling points are given based on the Power Score, the channeling class's primary ability score (INT for Initiates and WIS for wilders), and the channelers class/level.

Again - to address the balance question, using my channeling point chart, a female wilder who is first level gets 2 channeling points for her class and level. Let's say that she has great stats... her 18 POW scores gives her an additional 2 channeling points, and her 17 WIS gives her 1 for a total of 5 channeling points at first level. Weaves cost 1 + their level in order to channel, so the maximum level weave that the channeler could channel at 1st level is 4. If she did know a 4th level weave (which she wouldn't in my campaign, although she could channel a variable level weave at a 4th level effect) she could channel that weave once without overchanneling.

It's been my experience that this allows for a lot of versatility with channelers while maintaining (or even improving, depending on your opinion) game balance.

-The Green Man
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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (joshmvii @ Jan 26 2004, 02:37 AM)
Hey Magus, I have a question for you personally if you don't mind.  I agree with you that the slot system is really too powerful, but i'm not very happy with the way the book system represents channeling I guess.  I mean, it's not much like the books, though I understand some sacrifices have to be made in that area. 

I'd like to know your thoughts on adding channeling fatigue.  I read your post on the dying wotc board that gave this system:

I rewrote it to give to my players, but is that the way you've decided to use it?  And has it worked for you?  Do you think it might make a problem that this system basically says a wilder is (almost) always going to be able to channel more weaves before becoming fatigued than an initiate?

I actually came up with something much simpler, and actually much more realistic and effective.
Basically, whenever you cast a weave, you must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + casting level). Angreal/Sa'angreal use does not increase casting level for purposes of fatigue, but overchanneling and metaweaves do. If you fail your check, you are fatigued. Fail a second time and you're exhausted. Third time, you're out like a light.
In fact, this favors Aes Sedai with warders, as they get to use their warder's (more often much superior) Fortitude saves. And it works great.

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Jan 26 2004, 05:58 PM


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joshmvii
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 11:35 PM
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I like that. Simple and effective. A good combination. =)
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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 11:54 PM
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QUOTE (joshmvii @ Jan 26 2004, 06:35 PM)
I like that. Simple and effective. A good combination. =)

That's what i'm here for. biggrin.gif


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joshmvii
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 05:38 AM
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I have one more question. One of my players complained when I suggested this system and said he didn't think it right that his character, even at let's say 5th level, might fail this save casting a 1st level weave, and become fatigued. How should I explain to him? Is it that said channeler goofed up the weave, or what?
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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 01:40 PM
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Basically, even at level 5, you're still learning the weaves. Look in the books for references. Even Aes Sedai know how draining casting a weave is. Most Aes Sedai have a bonus though: their warders, with their higher fort saves.
Also, this is a d20 game. The dice rolls simulate a chance that isn't always in, say, the novels. For balance sake, some sacrifices need to be made. The slot system is one. In my games, so is the Channeling Fatigue. There's always chance. Does he complain whenever a targeted weave misses a target, even if he's 5th level? Bout the same thing, really. And he really shouldn't complain. it's only a DC of 11. Initiates have amazing Fortitude saves. Figuring that this player has an average con of 12, he would need to roll 6 or better to make the save. Yes there's a chance there, but it's pretty slim to fail a 1st level weave at level 5.
Lastly, remember this is only a House Rule. All house rules should be discussed with the players before implimenting them into the game. You have to ask yourself "What is this ruling giving to me?" "Why do i need this in my game?" I created Channeling Fatigue so that it balances the power of the channeling classes. Otherwise, someone could, with even half-decent rolls, overchannel all day and suffer no penalty whatsoever. It also follows the flavor of the books, where in the beginning even a simple weave to heat your hands can easily tire you, but once you get better and better, it moves to casting balefire that tires you (I have never seen a character other than Rand cast balefire and not be exhausted afterwards).
So, just go through and explain to him why you want this fatigue rule in. Explain to him that this follows the book more. That you wanted a slightly mroe balanced system. Ask him to try it out in one or two games, to get a feel for it. I remember running Shadowrun and one of my players wouldn't play a mage because casting spells can drain you. Once he played, he realized the drain rules actually were there for a reason, and it wasn't a big deal anyhow.
If it still causes problems, take it out of the game. A house rule should add to a game, not take away.

Edit: Anyone else got ideas to help him in this problem? Sharn, Lucius?

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Jan 27 2004, 01:41 PM


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 02:40 PM
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Well, I think you should also remind him that it is only fatigue. It isn't like he is going to be burned out or something.

I agree with MagusRogue. Don't implement a house rule unless you feel it necessary for some reason. Otherwise you will be up to your neck in house rules and you and your players will be confused. Keep it simple, that's why I like MagusRogue's fatigue system. It is easy to keep up with.

Also remind your player that at level 5 he'll be able to take out a large number of enemies with a single weave and that you feel this would be a minor way to balance that out. Also point out how you feel it is more fitting to the setting.

The point is, that the player's character doesn't gain anything by it. In my own games, I increase the Blademaster's Class defense bonus to Good, same as his Reflex save. No one complained because it just gave the characters more power. In this case, it is a penalty not a bonus, so of course he is not going to like it. Hopefully, he can learn to live with it.


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joshmvii
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 07:37 PM
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I see your points. I don't think he'll really mind, once I explain it the right way to him, but I do intend to include it, because I want channelers to be a little more in line with the rest of the classes. Also, how many players do you think is a good group for a GM in this game? I try to keep my groups to 4 people in most cases, but I always end up with friends wanting to play, and my last D&D group got bloated to about 7.

The problem was, in that group, half the people didn't want to do any roleplay at all, and I won't tolerate that for long. Especially with WoT, I intend for the game to be very much more roleplay than combat, and I only have 3 players I know are playing for sure, because they've all read the books and know what I expect.

Lastly, have you had any experience DM'ing a player who has not read the Wheel of Time? I have a friend who was never interested enough to pick up tEotW, but he's a very good roleplayer and I thought I might invite him to play WoT, and just have him read a little background stuff first.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 08:23 PM
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I usually run with 4-6 players at all times. And some, yes, have never read anything of what campaign i'm doing. Wheel of Time, it can be frustrating.
I suggest you have him sit down and read the RPG book, especially the various nations in character creation and later on in the back.
Also, if he's interested in magic, make sure he REALLY reads th One Power section, especially when they go into the traditions within it.
Lastly, it's not too hard to incorperate him if he doesn't know much. Look at how little the Two Rivers Supermen(women) knew of the real world outside of the Two Rivers. Have him be from an isolated village or something. And don't let him play any classes yet that require some good setting knowledge (especially Algai'd'siswai).
There's my two cents.


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Freya
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (joshmvii @ Jan 27 2004, 07:37 PM)
Lastly, have you had any experience DM'ing a player who has not read the Wheel of Time?  I have a friend who was never interested enough to pick up tEotW, but he's a very good roleplayer and I thought I might invite him to play WoT, and just have him read a little background stuff first.

The best thing I can think to add would be to consider disallowing him from playing an Aiel or Atha'an Miere. The Aiel and Atha'an Miere societies are so involved and complex, someone who has never read the books will never be able to portray one convincingly. Aiel moreso, IMO. Seanchan has difficulties, obviously. Just about any other region can be easily digestible and playable. As far as classes go, if he's interested in playing a channeler just be sure to impress the social stigma that goes along with it.

As far as I've seen, players who have never read the books can be fun. They're not tied down to what they know "can" or "can't" be done. Granted, someone who's never read the books may not become as easily invested into playing the game as others who have. We had a guy who had never read the books, he dropped pretty easily after finding karate, a girlfriend, and God (in that order).

Also, I completely agree with MagusRogue about starting him from a small village where no knowledge of the world is 'in character'. smile.gif
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jan 28 2004, 02:35 AM
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I've got one player that hasn't read the books. I used to have two, but one of them started reading them when he started playing. I was surprised at how well he picked up the setting and the feeling of the world.

At first, I would not let him play Athan' Miere, Aiel, or Ogier. A rural area would be easiest. However, after playing for several months, he may have such a good grasp, that the next campaign you do, he may be able to play any background. My one player that hasn't read the books, played a Borderlander Armsman in our first campaign. He is now playing an Ogier Treesinger (woodsman), and doing so quite nicely.

As far as how many to play with, well, I wish I had your problem of having too much. smile.gif As long as they are all good roleplayers, 7 would be fine with me, but if they are just wanting to go out and kill a bunch of Orcs and Dragons, then perhaps they would be happier playing DnD.


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joshmvii
Posted: Jan 28 2004, 05:16 AM
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Yeah, that's the major problem. I DM D&D also, and a few of these guys haven't picked up on roleplaying as quickly as one might hope. I'm hoping I can better myself as a GM, as well as help them become better roleplayers through the Wheel of Time, since the setting is just so perfect for roleplaying.
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jan 28 2004, 05:44 AM
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Good luck then. I think you are right about WoT being the perfect place for them to get their RPing experience. Hope everything works out well.


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