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> Wilder/Initiate weaves/day, how to calculate?
Orclord
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 03:25 PM
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Hi, I have just aquired this RPG due to my interest in the books. I have fund many of the rules simplistic and vague, one omission in particular bothers me...what happens when and if a wilder becomes an initiate? They have different weave tables. the rules say to sum all abilities and modify this would not see right, in this case, but i can find nohere in the manual to further clarify. In the Patterns of the Weave manual, one NPC is listed as Wilder 4/Initiate 2/Aes Sedai 4. It uses the initiate weave table, ignoring the wilder advancement. This does not seem correct either. Can anyone help me puzzle this out? Thanks
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Mantyluoto
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 03:31 PM
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welcome, Orclord, to the forums.

please check out a few of the past threads as it has been discussed there.

but for the offical line you need the only other book WotC did for WoT "Prophecies of the Dragon".



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MagusRogue
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 03:36 PM
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It's in the Prophecies of the Dragon adventure, enough to buy if just for the appendix, which has some useful rules (Counterweaving, Determinign Channeling Power, new weaves, and the Seanchan background), but it also has rules for multiclassing Initiate and Wilder.

Now, the official rules are that you can multiclass. however, to multiclass between the two, you must have the Eliminate Block feat before you can either enter or exit Wilder. Once done, you will always use the Initiate's weave charts. you get a second affinity and talent for multiclassing, as well as all of the classes' benefits (weavesight and a mentor for initiates, overchanneling bonuses and increased weave learning for wilders). You also now gain bonus weaves from Intelligence, Wisdom, AND Charisma.

Now, most of us here believe that is exceptionally powerful, even if you're forced to take a feat to do it. I personally just don't allow Wilders and Initiates to multiclass. Just as in Star Wars with the Jedi classes, they're two totally different philosophies that can't really cross. One is an inborn power that you've explored yourself, and no level of teaching will change how you do things, and the other is an exploration of power through guidance, which'll also flavor forever how you channel. That's how i handle it, anyhow. but you wanted the official rules, and the second paragraph is that.


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Mantyluoto
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 03:43 PM
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i think i would allow a wilder to go to an initiate but not the otherway round. why would a person who had struggled hard through years of being a novice (since initiates are supposed to be Accepted) want to stop practicing the tradition she had worked hard to achieve.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 03:56 PM
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It's got two parts, manty:

First off, the mentor thing is really an intangible benefit. A wilder who trains in the tower gets one as well. However, as they ARE wilders, they are given more freedom, unlike the initiate who depends on the mentor to show them how to do anything.
Second, a wilder going to the tower will be trained. That may mean she's taught a few weaves, and has an outlet to get stronger quicker, plus knowledge that she might otherwise not have in the wild. However, in the end, she'll still be a wilder. Look at nynaeve. Despite all her training, and what she does, she's a wilder. She still has the ability to push things along harder than others, and still does things her own way. Once again using the jedi classes as examples, once a wilder, always a wilder.
Plus, mechanically, it cleans up a few things. You no longer have to worry about power problems (the current multiclassing stuff is just too much... it says to everyone that if you really want a strong channeler, you HAVE to multiclass. It's also a munchkin's paradise).

That's how i see things, and that's how i'm sticking to it. Just like a beagle being trained to be a guard dog, that beagle's still gonna be a fox hunter, no matter outward appearances. ya know?


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Zarozynia
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 03:57 PM
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yeah, cross classing those seems kind of pointless to me. yes, if you were a wilder and you went to the White Tower, you might be "taught" some weaves that you didn't already know, but the ones that you have figured out for yourself you will never be able to re-learn as an initiate would learn them. The whole once you've learned a weave you must cast it that way thing. And besides, even if the Wilder became full Aes Sedai there would be many that would always think of her as being a Wilder. And a cross the other way seems even more ridiculous, even if a woman is thrown out of the White Tower she has been taught to think about the One Power in a particular way so the rest of her life would probably be spent making variations of that thought pattern, not creating a new one.

I kind of see the difference between initiate and wilder in the WoT as being like Jedi versus Force Adept in Starwars, totally different philosophies. One being very strict with a strong code of conduct, the other being very freeflowing, with each wilder being unique.


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Sa_sara
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 03:58 PM
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in my group the answer to why she'd go widler is clear:
they kicked her out unceremoniously after she saved their butts and helped them forge important connections in the world. She resents this so much she has gone rogue and intends to let no one else tell her how to use her power...she wants no oaths, no restriction from battle, and the other traditions just aren't her style...so she's going it alone but in a non-disruptive manner.


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Mantyluoto
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE
in my group the answer to why she'd go widler is clear:
they kicked her out unceremoniously after she saved their butts and helped them forge important connections in the world. She resents this so much she has gone rogue and intends to let no one else tell her how to use her power...she wants no oaths, no restriction from battle, and the other traditions just aren't her style...so she's going it alone but in a non-disruptive manner



and breathe "sigh"

"chuckles" thanks for the example Sa_sara. yours is an extreme case though as most players would stick to the traditions. not all Dm's are like yours. (but i wonder why they did it hmm possible dark plot coming.) and no i don't know your Dm biggrin.gif


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drothgery
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 05:01 PM
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Of course, I think that creating two classes was a bad idea in the first place, so I created the Generic Channeler class. Hence, no initiate/wilder multiclassing problems.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 05:02 PM
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sa'sara nailed it. Though like i said it's more of a Jedi Consular (defensive style) vs Jedi Guardian (offensive style) thing here. The two are so close that cross-classing them is pointless and redundant. anyhow. that's my philosophy. no multiclassing channeler levels unless you're talking botu PrC's, which you can have as many as you want. if taught, that is. biggrin.gif


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Orclord
Posted: Apr 23 2004, 05:55 PM
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Thanks for all the replies.

Having come from years of AD&D 1st & 2nd ed. and the older Rolemaster, I find these rules vague and sometimes silly, like anything from White Wolf.

I see Channelers all as variations on a Rolemaster Arch-Mage. Initiates and Wilders should be handled as 5 or 6 separate, yet similar classes with similar abilities, but differing rules.

I'm not thrilled with this system at all, but it was interesting to see how it was done. Interesting, too to see how some are coping and adapting the rules.

I placed another reply in a different thread on multiclassing (the poll one) that explains my major thoughts.

Speaking of all the D&D and Star Wars, PLEASE tell me that WoTC hasn't completely screwed the D&D system.
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