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> Game Mechanics Versus Cannon, Which would you prefer?
What Are You more concerned with in an Age of Legends campaign?
 Following the tidbits RJ has said at all costs
 Game Balance
 Other (please explain)
 
Zarozynia
Posted on Oct 4 2004, 04:45 AM
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drothgery
Posted on Oct 4 2004, 03:29 PM
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I'd avoid introducing things that seem out of place in the setting, but for a game, consistent, relatively simple, and balanced mechanics are more important to me than exactly mirroring the source material. I think highly unbalanced mechanics can easily make the game less fun, by allowing one player to dominate the game.


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Freya
Posted on Oct 4 2004, 04:50 PM
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I voted other, and here's why.

All that is needed is a system where the channelers have the potential to be powerful, plentiful skills guaranteeing that some characters will be better suited for some tasks than others, understanding players, and a not-afraid-to-say-no GM.

In our game, when we made characters, one person wanted to play an Asha'man. The GM said no. The person then asked to play an Aiel. The GM said no. The person then asked to play a Wolfbrother. The GM said yes. A player channeler (years into the game) decided to try the munchkin-loving horizontal gateway as an offensive tool. The GM said no. An understanding player will realize that in the books, non-channelers had NO CHANCE to 'dodge' a "wrap in air" weave, and will go along with it. Especially since the same will be true for our enemies. Our sneaking/social non-channeler wanted an angreal that could allow a non-channeler to 'see' weaves ('goggles of weavesight' or something). The GM said no (he didn't necessarily say one didn't exist, just he couldn't just /have/ one). Channelers should have the capability to fail their weaves, as well as graduated successes. (ie, a weak success to a strong success) There also needs to be a method to do accumulated successes for channeling, like a Spirit Shielding battle or cutting through a Ward weave, etc.

Whatever, I'm rambling. My point is, there is a middle-ground. The balanced d20 version was frustrating...non-channelers could do things no non-channeler should be able to do in Jordan's world. Channelers couldn't do a fraction of what they could do in Jordan's world. But, I don't think that means channelers should be all powerful and non-channelers below-mention. (like Ars Magica or Star Wars) The GM should arrange scenarios where non-channelers can shine, as well as situations when channelers can. Channeler PCs should be smart enough to realize that sometimes the sneaky rogue character could better infiltrate the manor house or gather the information needed through bar banter, than by weaving an Invisibility effect or using Compulsion.
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phrostphyre
Posted on Oct 4 2004, 11:47 PM
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I think game balance is a necessary must for any game, otherwise every one of your players will gravitate toward the 'super' class. This is why I believe that a number of the classes as written in the WoT core rulebook are flawed. I also sigh at the number of reworked offerings of the Algai'd'siswai class that turn the Aiel in to the killing machines that they are in the books, but leave little chance for the Armsman or Woodsman.

The Initiate class and to some degree the Wilder class start off pretty weak, but once they've got a number of levels under their belt they start to become unstoppable, with the right weaves of course. Saying that though, in the books these people have abilities that make them gods compared to regular folk, so perhaps I shouldn't complain too much?

Nah, wink.gif WoT RPG being a game all the classes should be fun to play. My players aren't very high level at the minute so things are fine. However, the Initiate was just taught Fireball and the other player commented "that makes us redundant then." It's yet to be seen if this will be the case, since the Initiate is extremely limited to the number of weaves she can cast in a day.

Following the books can be enjoyable and make the 'feel' of the game more like the environment RJ has written about, but this needs to be mitigated by playability and keeping things free flowing. The player I mentioned before has a Maiden of the Spear, who started out wishing to become a Wise One. That time is at hand, but the character is on the Almoth Plain right now, making that training problematic. She has the Latent Dreamer Feat, so I may have to change how T'a'R works in the game from how RJ has written it in the series, to make the training possible.

I've probably rambled a bit more than I wanted to there, but I mostly agree with Freya. Flexability and a level playing field for all players is necessary to keep players happy.
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Aleshandre
Posted on Oct 5 2004, 04:46 PM
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I belive in a combination of "cannon" and balance as well. The world is rich enough to incorporate all kinds of unique things that are extremely powerful, without unbalancing the game. There are some things that really should not be in the hands of either the GM or Players, simply because they are overly unbalancing. Freya is right, the GM should have the stomach to say no to the players if something is going to cause unbalance. They should also have the self-control to say no to themselves when needed. Game writers need to have even more self-control, so that they don't run too far with an unbalancing idea and create mass destruction tools for either the GMs or players.


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MagusRogue
Posted on Oct 5 2004, 05:23 PM
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There should be balance. I know all of you have heard my rants about how things, despite not being quite what they are in the books, have to be balanced for play. Hell, look at Dragonlance. They do things in the books that's impossible in game, such as Palin (at the time, a 5th level wizard) casting a 9th level spell. things like that.


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Llewin
Posted on Oct 5 2004, 07:06 PM
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Balance for the sake of gameplay is one thing, and definitely something that needs to always be kept in the back of a GMs mind... However, didnt we all start playing this game because we love the universe RJ built? We should still make an effort to keep as close to his canon without making the game unplayable by the majority.

Channellers should over all be more versatile and powerful than non-channellers, however there will always be situations where channellers simply can not use the One Power to any great success... why do you think Aes Sedai have Warders?

I think even though RJ's world gives an incredible amount of power to channellers it isnt unbalanced simply because of all the checks against channeller power... Aes Sedai are bound by the three oaths, the stigma of the One Power is strong throughout most of the world. Wilders who draw attention to themselves and do things that go against the three oaths are sought out by the A.S. because the common folk dont know the difference and it makes the real A.S. look bad. The same sorts of checks/balances exist in each culture...

I basically agree with Ale for the most part
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MagusRogue
Posted on Oct 5 2004, 09:57 PM
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Channeling does have the greatest weakness, one that was left out of the book, and one we've all got rules on: Channeling makes you tired. It's certainly not unique (in dragonlance, using arcane magic tires you), but it's a definate handicap. A fighter can swing a sword four an hour in battle, maybe much longer, but a channeler weaving an hour is gonna drop dead of exhaustion.


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Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted on Oct 5 2004, 11:08 PM
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In my weave point system, which I will send you soon, Magus, I wrote up a fatigue system. In case you don't know where it is, it's here.
Any dang way, there's no reason something like this couldn't be used with the normal channeling system presented in the book, or pretty much any other channeling system. And you are right, Magus to the Max, this is one thing that balances channelers.

This post has been edited by Two Rivers Wolfbrother on Oct 5 2004, 11:09 PM


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Zarozynia
Posted on Oct 5 2004, 11:59 PM
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Yeah, I dont consider channelers to be unbalancing at all in the current era. The AS have the three oaths, male channelers have madness and the fear of being stilled if they're found out to be able to channel, and most other channelers are too afraid of Aes Sedai to do much.

I fear a bit for the Age of Legends though when the weaves are much more powerful, and there are no three oaths, and no madness. Hence why I think that the idea of cuellindar actually balances things out a bit more, it allows a warrior some form of protection from channeling. Hence why I've been asking for oppinions on whether I can add something to counter cuellindar, because then I need to balance THAT.

dry.gif

anyways, thoughts would be appreciated. Well, to be truthful, another whole group of cuelindar is over powered and should never be used really isn't going to be that helpful. Find a way to help me balance it, and then we wont have a problem!

-Z


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Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing experiment in writing/illustration/mythology

Photographia

Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog

Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource
* Developing a Character: The Aiel
* Amadicia Background: Complete with Whitecloak PC and new backgound feat
* Moonwarrior - A Wolfbrother feat in the main Feats section
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shaun
Posted on Oct 9 2004, 02:50 PM
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I believe that the super-strong type "classes" as such that Robert Jordan had in his books were mainly that good because they trained to an excessive amount ie they were high level/ gained levels quickly. Since in the RPG all the characters have the same amount of experience generally then they would be at the same level and be just as strong- they have done as much "training" as each other.

Two Rivers Wolfbrother, your channeling system seems fairly good at a quick glance though I would have to play test it to see if it is as I want it. I'm kinda developing my own system using inspiration from the different systems posted and I think I could "borrow" quite a few of your idea's.

With channelers at low levels they should be piss weak as channeling is extreemly hard to learn. As they get better (higher level) they can become extreemly powerfull but with some system like Two Rivers Wolfbrother's one it should be able to be limeted book realistically. No-one will get to the level of the forsaken though in most campaigns.
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MagusRogue
Posted on Oct 9 2004, 03:06 PM
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The simplest channeling fatigue system, i do believe, is one of the ones i made. Fort save, dc 10 + weave level, fail and get tired. endurance adds to this save. overchanneling increases the weave cost, angreal and linking doesnt.

then you also got the vitalizing fatigue, where you get to 3/4 and you're fatigued. use up all your points, and you're exhausted.

there's several other good systems out there, yours included TWB. Enough that i might have to make a chapter just for fatigue rules. *Grins*


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Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted on Oct 9 2004, 09:27 PM
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Well, I'm actually modifyin g a few tings, such as redoing the wilder class. I was never satisfied with the way they turned out. It's almost ready to send, Magus Wanderer. Just gotta get some charts right, then VOOM!


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This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai. Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as wolves.

Current Projects:
Encounters Handbook
Tome of the One Power

Homepage:
Town Center Productions
It's funny! Please check out the funny short films and sketches, such as Pink Avenger, the Sockies, and Kenny getting shot with a paintball gun.

Check out my Wheel of Time RPG Website!
It's not as funny as Town Center Productions, but it's updated frequently, so check it out often.
Newest Features:
Alternate Rules: Sanity
Towns and Locals: The Tuatha'an I
My TRW WoT Yahoo! Group! This is where I let the people know when I update my WoT site and also let them know what's coming up.
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Quillion
Posted on Oct 10 2004, 04:29 PM
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Other

Game balance is a myth. I have played DnD which is a game and not a book and that game is not balanced. I have played AU which is a newer game with less baggage than Dnd and that game is not balanced. Game balance is a myth.

You want the game to accurate, but you want the game to be PLAYABLE and FUN.
I want the game to include all of RJ's bits but I don't want it to be unplayable because of those inclusions.





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Llewin
Posted on Oct 10 2004, 07:55 PM
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Quillon: /agree smile.gif
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Aleshandre
Posted on Oct 11 2004, 05:33 PM
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I like to think of balance as a measure of the playability of the game. If either a PC or an NPC is so powerful that they effectively destroy the usefulness of other characters, then the playability (balance) is destroyed. There is no problem with a single charater simply being more powerful than others. The problem comes in when the gap is too broad and there is no way to defeat said character and there is no point to playing.


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Freya
Posted on Oct 12 2004, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre @ Oct 11 2004, 03:33 PM)
I like to think of balance as a measure of the playability of the game. If either a PC or an NPC is so powerful that they effectively destroy the usefulness of other characters, then the playability (balance) is destroyed. There is no problem with a single charater simply being more powerful than others. The problem comes in when the gap is too broad and there is no way to defeat said character and there is no point to playing.

I think my issue with a player character who cannot be beaten is that it should never have been allowed to happen if the GM had been vigilant and willing to say 'no.' We had a guy in our group who came from a powergaming background. His characters were always straight-up fighters with no social skills and maxed with every feat/skill necessary to kill someone as quick as possible. Our GM has a game style where character interaction is stressed and combat is an every-other-session type of thing, instead of combat after combat after... This player quickly realized that his Charisma 8 Intelligence 10 character with no social/knowledge skills simply could NOT contribute to discussions, plans, etc, because he had built expressly to be a killing machine and nothing else. So that was what he was.

It was a lesson from the GM. Go ahead and make this type of character and see how much you like it in my style of game. His next character was very different.

Then, on another note, players who have characters which can be potentially very powerful should consider whether just because they can do a thing doesn't necessarilly mean they should do it. Just because their channeler could weave an array of Illusion weaves making her seem grand and terrible and commanding as a means of entering a Lord's manor to find some secret info, doesn't mean she should. The Wanderer character is quite equipped to sneak in and skulk about and find the info without alerting the household. Players need to learn self-control, and that he/her are probably not the star of this story...others need a chance to shine. GMs should remind them of this from time to time.
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Llewin
Posted on Oct 12 2004, 10:50 PM
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The best way to remind a player they they are not the be-all end-all and that just because they can do something doesnt mean they should is to use the universe to create consequences for actions that would not normally be taken... in my opinion anyway smile.gif

For example I have a player who is a male wanderer who has 'discovered he can channel' and has not been very discreete about it of late... as a consequence (even though we tried to clue him in since he's only just begun reading the books) he has drawn the attention of the Tower
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