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> Warder Bond
Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 27 2004, 11:22 PM
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There is a pretty good chance that within the next couple of sessions, my male channeler is going to end up bonded as a warder. My question is two fold: what effect does this have on the male channeler and what does it have on the female. This is pre-cleansing of the source, so that has to be taken into account. Would the female channeler gain madness points through the bond, perhaps lessening his own madness? I dont remember their being rules for this in the book (I will check again). I know that some of you have dealt with this before, how did you deal with it?

Also, in the books, when Alanna bonds Rand, she tries to use the whole natural warder control thing on him, and it fails. Would this just be repesented by his naturally high will save from being a channeler, or is this an ability that male channelers would have if they are bonded?

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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 27 2004, 11:38 PM
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For the first question, there would be no negative effects in the mind of the Aes Sedai, except feeling him going mad and dying (the first may actually cause her to go mad too, but not as a direct result).

The second question is up for debate. We know so little about the Male channeler as warder bonding and all of it is from an Aes Sedai's point of view, which gives us no real grasp, since none of the other male channelers who have been bonded have had their POV in the novels. I say, pick a direction and go with it.


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Zinuk
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 12:09 AM
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There could be 3 reasons as for why Alanna didn't manage to control Rand:
  • because Rand is Ta'veren;
  • because Rand is a powerful channeler;
  • because Rand is strong willed.
The problem is that we can't know for sure which one is correct from what the books say. However, I would rather favor the first reason, because we know that a similar (but different) bonding weave can control channelers (the Asha'man bonding weave) and there seems to be no evidence of warders being impossible to control due to being strong willed.

In any case, as Aleshandre said, you should pick up a reason and go with it.
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Darius Earthbinder
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 01:00 AM
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in one of the books (and i forget which) one of the forsaken mentions that the "untrained" aes sedai of this age had discovered many things thought impossible back in the age of legends "healing stilling, <b>involuntary links</b>"
i have taken it that the warder bond is just that an involuntary link
if a female channeller bonds a male channeller or vice versa they gain the benefit as if they had formed a linked circle, the "control" effect of a warder bond is due to the woman being the leader of the circle (if bonded to a non-channeller) but as it has been stated if a link has men in it they must be in control ( i think) therefore when the Female channeller bonds the man she can feel the taint whenever he channels (nyn+rand book 9) but apart from feeling sick has no other effect
the man controls the flows and indeed gains some measure of power (although not stated rand did seem to make a jump in power after allanna bonded him, and again after elayne did(but thats a very special "odd" bond and deserves a whole thread to itself) also other male channellers seem to show a jump in power (logain and some of the other A'men who bonded Aes sedai), whereas the women do not)

whoa dom calm down take breath...
will edit tomorrow after sleep

Dominic's summary
Bond = link
If male channeller==
Men control link
Therfore allanna cannot control rand
Therfore Female cannot control male channeller
Therfore men gain +power from link
if not channeller ==
aes sedai channeler
therefore man who cannot channel gains no benefit from power
but can be coerced by bond
but does gain +stamina
if not male ==
cannot be coerced by bond
gains heightened awareness of the channellers thoughts and feelings


now for the bag of worms:
what happens if a man bonds another man as a warder
if the man can channel= ?
if the man cannot = ?



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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 02:57 AM
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I tend to agree with what Darius says. I relate it to a Link with a man and woman, the man always has to have control. I think this is the reason that Rand could not be compelled.

Of course, I could also see the arguement that Rand is t'avern and the Dragon Reborn. He can hardly shape the world if his is controlled by some thinks-she-knows-everything Aes Sedai.

So like Aleshandre said, until RJ gives a definite answer on that, pick a possiblity and roll with it.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 04:17 AM
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Don't forget we have seen Aes Sedai bonding Asha'man as well (just don't make me think of any names off the top of my head heh) But those Asha'man seem to be operating pretty much like normal warders. However I do feel if the both members of the bond are channelers it will never work quite the same (just as when the people sharing the bond are the same sex...makes the bond work differently). But how you handle it really has no concrete rules answer. Just go with something that makes sense to you and be consistent.


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Zinuk
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE (Darius Earthbinder @ Jun 28 2004, 01:00 AM)
i have taken it that the warder bond is just that an involuntary link

Here is Moridin's exact quote:
QUOTE
These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time [...]

As we see, Moridin enumerates 3 things that could not be made in his age, and place them on the same level:
  • Healing severing;
  • Involuntary rings;
  • Bonding.
This indicates that bonding and Involuntary rings are two different things. The FAQ says here that the Involuntary rings refer to a'dam. It is much more likely as there is no reason why Moridin would know how the Aes Sedai bonding weave works (he's a male channeler) and much less how it would work on a male channeler as nobody knows.

The other problem with the Bonding = Involuntary ring theory is that an a'dam doesn't work on a non channeler, but a bonding does, so channeling would not be at the center of the working of the bonding weave (as it would if it was an Involuntary ring). Also, you can bond somebody of any sex, whereas an a'dam only works on females and the Sad bracelet only works on two females and one male.
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Freya
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 04:19 PM
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Also, we get no indication that male channelers, when Bonded, gain any other standard Warder abilities. Most notably, Rand (or any of the other Asha'man) makes no mention of increased endurance, or less need of food or sleep, etc. For that matter, neither do Logain's Bonded Aes Sedai when we get their POV (though that is a different Bond).

And as others have already mentioned, there are multiple theories about why Alanna couldn't compel Rand using the Warder Bond. I tend to think it has more to due with a strong will than anything else. Meaning, any Bonded person with a high willpower would have a fighting chance to withstand the Compulsion effects of the Bond. (In my mind, Rand being ta'veran, a powerful channeler, and strong willed are all one-in-the-same. Channelers *must* have strong wills to channel as they do. Male channelers [pre-Cleansing] even moreso. And ta'veran, much less the Dragon Reborn, must be the most stubborn SOB ever to survive until Tarmon Gaidon.)

And I heartily agree with Zinuk about Moridin refering to a'dam, not Bonding, when he said 'involuntary rings'. Bonds have nothing to do with Linking.

This post has been edited by Freya on Jun 28 2004, 04:19 PM
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Mantyluoto
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 06:18 PM
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Doesn't Elayne comment after she has bonded birgitte that she wished she had put oaths (or some such) into the bond, like the sisters are wont to do.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 06:36 PM
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She said something like that, but IIRC, she was wondering if there was a way to put oaths into it. It seems to me that it was a misunderstanding of the compulsion element of the warder bond.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 28 2004, 07:58 PM
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I think the enhanced endurance, need for less food and sleep, etc is somewhat natural to channelers anyway. Even Aes Sedai who are somewhat lacking in the physical fitness department tend to be able to push themselves much farther and harder than the average Jane Doe from Caemlyn can. I believe that this benefit is gained by the Warders through the bond, and then enhanced due to their rigorous training. Hence we won't see much of a difference in a bonded Male Channeler since he already possesses some of these quantities.


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The Great Gray Skwid
  Posted: Jun 29 2004, 05:34 PM
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And here is the inevitable, and yet mysteriously absent thus far, FAQ link.

YW.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 29 2004, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE
Cadsuane indicated that none of the Asha'man were forced into the bonding, and none of them seem to be under duress, but bond-compelling could remedy the latter, so it probably doesn't count for much. COT indicates that the rules over who is in charge seem to be changing for Merise and the rest [COT: 23, Ornaments, 537-538], but if they were/are not being compelled in some way, what would have been their motivation for accepting such a fundamentally unequal partnership in the first place?

The answer to their motivation is actually found in Cadsuane's perspective in Winter's Heart, where while instructing Verin to blackmail the women they had been putting to the question. She said that she hated blackmail, but she had used it on the three Asha'man who were still in Cairhien. This still leaves some doubt as to whether the 3 are being compeled in any degree, beside the fact that they are all being blackmailed by Cadsuane. The vague statement that they don't seem to be under duress is another of the clever ways that Aes Sedai can stand the truth on its head. Since she isn't bonded to them, she can't possibly know for a fact that they are under duress or even if they still believe that whatever she has on them can hurt them, thus the only indication that she has is the relationships with the Aes Sedai who bonded them, which doesn't give her enough to say that they seem to be under duress. As soon as RJ gives an answer to this one, we will never have enough information to make the determination.


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Freya
Posted: Jun 29 2004, 09:22 PM
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*eck*

I have always disagreed with the theory that the 'extra bit' Logain mentions (when he Bonds Torvine) is refering to something extra he weaved specifically to Bond channelers (as opposed to non-channelers).

Logain grabbed Torvine and kissed her. He then apologized for the 'extra bit' saying that was 'how they were taught' to do it. He was apologizing for the KISS, not the compulsion-aspect of the Bond!

Think about it. We know the Asha'man Bond was created by a Asha'man that wanted to keep updated of his wife's condition while he was away. It makes loads of sense that such a Bond was developed with a kiss as the physical motion. So, Asha'man JoeBob develops this wife-bond and teaches others how to use it. The kiss is an integral part of the weave, just like the Aes Sedai throwing gestures when weaving a fireball. If the AS do not gesture like they are throwing the fireball, the weave does not work...it's not hard to assume the same is true for the kiss in the wife-bond weave.
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jun 29 2004, 09:32 PM
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Yeah, Freya, I don't always buy everything that I read in the FAQ, either. Unless it is from RJ's lips, it is just someone else's theory and isn't necessarily better than anyone else's.

You make a good point.

This post has been edited by Sharn Penndroen on Jun 29 2004, 10:18 PM


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 29 2004, 09:36 PM
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I have to agree with Freya on this one. If the standard Bond Warder weave inherently includes a compulsion element that can be used, but isn't used often, by most Aes Sedai, then it makes sense that the Asha'man bond is the same as the standard Aes Sedai bond, which means that the entire question goes right back to the original conclusion: RJ was not specific when about why Rand could not be compelled through the bond, so draw your own conclusions and RAFO.


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Niveus
Posted: Jul 4 2004, 04:55 AM
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somthing noone has yet thought to mention is that rand is in a constant struggle with lewis therin and this may be the cuase of his immunity to the compulsion if he can prevent lewis from gaining control he should most definatly defend against a bonds compulsion


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 4 2004, 02:44 PM
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While that is true, it still leaves the question as to whether other male channelers are also able to resist the compulsion effect, due to their constant fight with controlling saidin. Unfortunately, this point only makes the issue more cloudy.


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Niveus
Posted: Jul 5 2004, 01:59 AM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre @ Jul 4 2004, 12:44 PM)
While that is true, it still leaves the question as to whether other male channelers are also able to resist the compulsion effect, due to their constant fight with controlling saidin. Unfortunately, this point only makes the issue more cloudy.

true but as rand is the only one so far that has been mentioned resisting the compulsion aspect to any significant degree i thought id mention the madness issue


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Zarozynia
Posted: Jul 5 2004, 11:28 PM
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So nobody has actually been part of a game where this has happened?

I was under the impression from things that I have read that at least a few of you had, given the whole PC (Dragon Pairs?) made for them specifically and all. Maybe not.

If there is anybody who has experience with this happening, I would love to hear how you've dealt with it. Not that the theoretical isn't great, but I know all of it. I'm looking to see if anybody has applied any of this, and how it came out. What worked and what didn't, etc.


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