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> what else could robert Jordan have done, cleansing the taint
TwangCat
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 04:48 PM
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can you folks help me brainstorm here? How could the shadow have reacted to the cleansing of the tain other than sending all the forsaken in? my party is doing this but I would prefer a more RP way of the shadow reacting than combat.
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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 05:08 PM
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taint the other side of the one power? attempt to counter the weave that removed the taint, attempt to modify the weave that removed the taint so that instead of causing it to make a minor black hole it made another area of blight. basically messing with the weave as opposed to messing with the casters.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 05:15 PM
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I don't think even durign Winter's Heart that the dark one had enough power to directly mess with people, especially near SL.


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 05:28 PM
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the dark one, no, the dark ones avatar and forsaken, yes. If instead of going out there and trying to kill the casters, all of the forsaken had linked and used their concealed angreal, they just might have been able to divert the stream of taint to some malevolent end. If they had been really thinking about it they could have recreuted (sp?) a good chunk of the black ajah and made a massive circle of channelers to rival the power of the great statues. ( say highest slot of 8, +3 angreal, and +8 from linking, casting level of 19 w/o overchanneling aint bad smile.gif )
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Sa_sara
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 06:38 PM
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The problem with them working together...they're evil and all out to shove each other down to climb to the top of the evl hierarchy themselves...so unless they're mindtrapped (every last one) and their mind trap is held by the dark one's avatar, there's nil chance they'd actually work together...


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 06:43 PM
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and thats why the taint was clensed biggrin.gif
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Busher
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 07:03 PM
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It depends on how much warning he has. If he knows about the plan he could organize some way to pervert the ritual as Kakita suggested. I don't see the shadow expecting anyone to attempt to cleanse the source so I doubt he would have a set contingency in place. Therefore any reaction is going to be a hasty plan and I doubt that they can recruit that many Black Ajah in that timeframe.

I think that that just trying to pervert the weave and bringing enough aid to defend the chanellers is a reasonable response. Do you have access to the Book of Vile Darkness? If so take a look at Evil Weather or Lingering Effects of Evil as consequences of the perversion.

How close to the party would those perverting the weave have to be to affect it?
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alohahaha
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 07:14 PM
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Actually, I've been reading up on this FAQ, and there's lots of reasons why all those things didn't happen. Here's the link: http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/0_admin/0.01_intro.html

BE WARY THOUGH - This is a really BIG spoiler and has really good theories of what will happen in the future books and what all the prophecies mean. If you want to figure out such things on your own, don't read the FAQ. If you really need a lot of things explained to you, though, that is the place to go.

1) Shadar Haran, the Super-Fade who is thought to be an avatar of the Dark One, does not have free reign over the world. Just as the Dark One is bound to Shayol Ghul, so to is Shadar Haran. He can leave Shayol Ghul, but not for very long. This is why Shadar Haran has never tried to kill Rand himself.

2) The Forsaken didn't have much time to prepare. That's why they didn't on any help from the Black Ajah or summon an army of Trollocs and Fades.

3) The reason why the Forsaken didn't link was because Cadsuane, along with other female channelers and an Asha'man with Callandor, was protecting Rand and Nynaeve while they cleasned saidin. If the protectors had killed one of the Forsaken while the rest were linked, it would have been a very bad thing, so that's why they didn't. Instead, the Forsaken tried to spread out and attack from several different points. If the Forsaken had linked and tried to cast a very powerful weave, they would have been sitting ducks for Cadsuane and the defenders.


One thing you could is instead of focusing on the Dark One is focus on Shadar Logoth. The reason why Rand used Shadar Logoth is because it is a city of evil that was made to combat evil. His wound from Baalzamon is Dark One tainted, while his wound from Padan Fain is Shadar Logoth tainted. They throb countertime to one another. When that Asha'man Healed Rand, he did it by having the wounds counteract each other. This led Rand to believe that Shadar Logoth is an evil that counters the Dark One, much like saidar counters saidin, so that's why he used that city as the site of cleansing saidin. What he did was create a large tube of saidar from which he could pour all of saidin down into Shadar Logoth. As he poured saidin into Shadar Logoth, the evil of that city attracted the Dark One's taint into it, much like the North Pole of one magnets attract the South Pole of another. So what happened was Shadar Logoth attracted ALL of the Dark One's taint into it, cleansing saidin. The two evils attracted each other and neutralized each other, turning Shadar Logoth in a two mile wide void.

But what if something else happened? What if Shadar Logoth is saidar to the Dark One's saidin? Remember, the Dark One is very aggressive in his campaign against the Creator. What if cleansing the taint created something else, a passive evil? I don't know if you ever played the White Wolf World of Darkness games, but there are two games that you could derive inspiration from. One of them is Werewolf, where they fight a huge embodiment of destruction called the Wyrm. The Wyrm is rather aggressive in trying to destroy the world, creating monsters and causing global catastrophes. But there's also another game you could use, Wraith. In Wraith, you play a ghost who is trying to fight off the sense of depression and decay into Oblivion, the state of total nonexistence. This force of Oblivion, however, is much more passive. Yes, it acts against the world, but not very much. This is because everything, over time, will be destroyed. That's just how entropy works. Nothing lives forever.

So what if Shadar Logoth can be saidar to the Dark One's saidin? What if Shadar Logoth doesn't neutralize the Dark One's taint, but instead synthesizes with it? What if the tube of saidar through which the tainted saidin travels doesn't just protect the world from the saidin rushing through Shadar Logoth? What if it catalyzes the Dark One's evil, transforms the evil, making it more passive? And what if this evil synthesizes with Shadar Logoth? What if this synthesis gives Shadar Logoth MORE power? What if it gives this power to the city's avatar on earth?

Padan Fain, who has merged with Mordeth.

So now, because of your characters actions, there is not one Dark One that must be imprisoned, but rather two: Shaitan and Mordeth. Destruction and Oblivion.

If you actually wanted to do something like this, I would have Fain/Mordeth gain the ability to use something like the True Power, but one different than the Dark One's, a saidar to the Dark One's saidin. He instantly becomes a lvl 20 channeler with an equivalent of a lvl 10 sa'angreal since he's now the avatar of Oblivion. If you want to give him a disability, make him bound to the ruins of Shadar Logoth, much like how the Dark One is bound to Shayol Ghul. The difference between Mordeth and the Shadow, however, is that Mordeth is much more patient, much more wily. He rarely acts, but when he does so, he does so precisely and with force. Instead of recruiting his own Darkfriends, he only lets people come to him. Instead of using monsters to fight wars, Mordeth uses his wits to manipulate people into accepting the natural course of Oblivion. Mordeth believes himself to be all powerful, for he sees himself as the natural end of all things. Even the Shadow...


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Sa_sara
Posted: Mar 14 2004, 07:40 PM
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alohahaha is onto something!
I quite like the idea...
The Dark One and his forces would never
a. cooperate in the face of their lives being threatened more by said cooperation
b. be able to truly perpare for this
c. be able to leave Shayol Ghul long enough in full force of power to do said things

So...the super-Mordeth avatar makes amazing sense, provides something no one would think of (since in the books we stop hearing about Fain after SL becomes the unholy crater/lake) as obvious because it was in the books (not in the books! hah!) and then they have a seeming victory but really they've just set themselves up for a second new war on top of the one they already have


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Mar 15 2004, 08:06 PM
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I like the Passive evil idea, quite good and something Jordanesque too in my opinion. Jordan, ebing trained as a man of science likes having things fit into catagories akin to natural laws of the universe.

And remember...even if the Forsaken showed up linked, with every existing sa'angreal and angreal in the world at their disposal, other than what Rand and Co had....they wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING to the weave that Rand and Nynaeve were working IMHO. The Choedan Kal are the two greatest sa'angreal of all time and according to what we read every sa'angreal and angreal on the planet combined still doesn't wield as much power as those two. The sheer volume of Saidin and Saidar being worked would be overwhelming to anyone attempting to divert it, alter it, or otherwise interfere with the cleansing in that manner.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Mar 15 2004, 08:07 PM
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I like the Passive evil idea, quite good and something Jordanesque too in my opinion. Jordan, ebing trained as a man of science likes having things fit into catagories akin to natural laws of the universe.

And remember...even if the Forsaken showed up linked, with every existing sa'angreal and angreal in the world at their disposal, other than what Rand and Co had....they wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING to the weave that Rand and Nynaeve were working IMHO. The Choedan Kal are the two greatest sa'angreal of all time and according to what we read every sa'angreal and angreal on the planet combined still doesn't wield as much power as those two. The sheer volume of Saidin and Saidar being worked would be overwhelming to anyone attempting to divert it, alter it, or otherwise interfere with the cleansing in that manner.


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Axel
Posted: Mar 16 2004, 02:19 PM
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Considering that we know nothing of Fain, that could well happen. Padain Fain is already much more than Mordeth, two completely different evils strive for dominance within him. If Shadar Logoth, and thus he, were infused with the power of the taint then yes he may indeed become a second evil to plague the world. Judging by how Mordeth destroyed Shadar Logoth, Fain would destroy the world much the same way, slowly, surely, and manipulatively. He may even be able to tap a kind of Power from the taint itself, something slow but sure, lethal yet seductive, like the taint.

Of course there are other possibilities. I really hate to follow up an act like that, but here it goes:
If the party decided not even to use Shadar Logoth, if they dumped the taint somewhere else, how might things be different? If the party dumped the taint into one of the mirror worlds, confident that there it can do them no harm. What might happen to that mirror world, and how would it affect that of the party?


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alohahaha
Posted: Mar 16 2004, 10:44 PM
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Well, my friend and I talked this over, and considering the metaphysics of Randland, here's some other things we came up with.

1) Shaitan is the source of all evil in the world, and the Creator locked him outside of the Pattern when the universe was created.

2) Shaitan's seal was broken in the Age of Legends, and the War of Power occured between the Forces of Light and the Forces of Shadow. The Dragon and his Hundred Companions had to go to Shayol Ghul, the site of the Bore, where the Shadow's prison is weakest, to try to seal the prison. They succeeded, but since Shayol Ghul was where the Pattern is thinnest and where Shaitan has the most sway over reality, he was able to taint saidin, causing all the male channelers to go insane.

3) Shadar Logoth was the caiptol of a nation during the Trolloc Wars. The way the wars were going were worrying the king and his people. The advisor to the king, Mordeth, suggested that they fight evil with evil, using the same tactics as the Shadow did. This caused Shadar Logoth to turn against itself with paranoia and suspsicion and transformed the city into a place of evil. It's important to note, however, that this evil is of humanity's making, not directly of Shaitan's, and that this evil was done to combat the evil of Shaitan.

4) This means that Shadar Logoth is a counter-evil to Shaitan's, an evil that opposes Shaitan's evil. That is why the SL wound throbs countertime to the DO wound. It is because of this counterevil that SL was able to draw the taint out of saidin.

5) Shaitan has the ability to grant upon certain channelers the True Power, to cast weaves not from saidin or saidar, but rather from the power of Shaitan himself.

So, if you want to go one step further with this story...

The characters create a tube of saidar around Shadar Logoth, as they push tainted saidin through the huge weave. The evil of the city is quickly attracted to the Dark One's taint on saidin, and with the purpose of the city that destroyed it, attacks the Dark One's taint, pulling it out of saidin to take it in as it's own.

But something unexpected happens. The evil in Shadar Logoth is of humanity's making, yes, but the taint on saidin is that of Shaitan, a divine being of evil. Through the link of the taint, Shadar Logoth tries to attack Shaitan directly, trying to consume the god's evil for itself. There is a battle for power within that tube of saidar, between Shadar Logoth and Shaitan, a war that saidar somehow affects. Shadar Logoth emulates the passivity of saidar, making the evil wicked, mutable, flowing around Shaitan, trying to consume him. But as the taint is cleared of saidin, the connection between Shadar Logoth and Shaitan breaks.

As does Shaitan himself.

No longer is the Dark One complete. He is broken in twain.

Shadar Logoth is not destroyed. It is only decayed, for now it is the epitome of the Dark One's power to decay. It is the place of slow, patient evil, the evil of inaction. Shadar Logoth is ruled by the amalgamation of Mordeth and Fain, this being who is now a dark godling. But he is the avatar of Shaitan's touch of oblivion, and so he does not actively seek to break the Wheel of Time. He knows that the weaknesses of humanity will allow the Wheel to break of it's own accord. So he waits.

But for Mordeth to be the keeper of Shaitan's touch of oblivion, that means the god trapped in Shayol Ghul has lost half it's power. The being imprisoned at that dark mountain in something less than Shadow now, having lost the patience of entropy. But that makes it no less dangerous. Rather, it makes it more aggressive, more violent. Naming himself Destroyer, he calls out to the Forsaken to once again reprise their roles of generals, to call out for Dreadlords to be their lieutenants, and to lead armies of shadowspawn once again against a world less prepared for such a horror. The Dark One, now Destroyer, starts the Second War of Power.

And as the hordes of Trollocs and Fades ride south to raze the world, there is only one sure safe haven.

Shadar Logoth.

Where the Shadow Waits.

And wait Mordeth does, waiting for hopeless souls to give themselves to him and for the world to destroy itself. An avatar of half the Shadow, he turns the city into a fortress against the Destroyer's forces, a bastion that desperate survivors turn to for safety. Trollocs and Fades and Dreadlords lay siege to the city-kingdom, but Mordeth using a power, not saidin or saidar, but something more akin to the True Power, but not quite that either, something he calls the Dark Power, turns them away. With the Dark Power, Mordeth creates ice, not fire; silence, not sound; numbness, not pain; dark, not light. Using his Dark Power, Mordeth agrees to safeguard the residents, allows them to live out their lives to their natural lengths, as long as they give their souls to him after they die. More than you would think agree to this pact, for the only other choose to have their spirit ravaged by the Destroyer.

And this is the state of affairs for Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn. He must unite the world not for a Last Battle, but for a Last War. He must not only drive back the Destroyer, but also lay siege to Mordeth lest his decaying touch spread and more souls fall to his dark protection.

What's more, Rand al'Thor cannot bind Shaitan back into its prison until both his aspects have been rejoined. The one evil cannot be pushed out of the Pattern unless the other evil is joined with it. He must find away to separate Mordeth from the divinity of Shaitan, to reform Shaitan, restore him to power, so that all of the his evil may be imprisoned outside the Pattern, as the Creator willed it at the beginning of time.

But at least saidin has been cleansed.

This post has been edited by alohahaha on Mar 16 2004, 10:55 PM


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Shatter your rose-colored glasses
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Busher
Posted: Mar 17 2004, 02:53 AM
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alohahaha those are some rally cool ideas. Just Wow.

I think we may have strayed a bit from TwangCat's original question. Could you please let us know if this is helping?
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TwangCat
Posted: Mar 17 2004, 04:05 PM
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It's not especially helpfull as I was looking for different responses the dark one could have done to the cleansing but it is still interesting. I'd post my current plans here but I'm almost convinciend a player of mine as figured out who I am on this board so I don't want to give everything away and I know tha tmakes helping me very difficult. sorry about that.
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alohahaha
Posted: Mar 17 2004, 07:06 PM
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Sorry about that, TwangCat. Just remember, if all else fails, have the Dark One conjure a bubble of evil nearby. That'll easily explain away any kind of vile nastiness you want to do to your players.


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I may be in the gutter
But I'm looking to the stars!
Shatter your rose-colored glasses
But never stop dreaming.
I may have my feet down to earth
But my head is always in the clouds.
I won't promise you the sun and the moon
But I can tell you fantasies of far greater things
While providing you with simple pleasures.
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Mar 17 2004, 07:23 PM
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Warning for those who haven't read up through Winters Heart...Spoilers.










Other than what he did do, or perhaps forcing a bubble of evil (which I don't know if the DO can even do..I've been under the impression they are pretty much random) there isn't alot the Dark One could have done IMHO. Remember as far as alot of the day to day things go Moridin is calling the shots, and the Forsaken are left pretty much to their own devices. Given more time he could of course, so if in your campaign the DO, or better yet Moridin, has some prior knowledge of when and where Rand wants to cleanse the Taint, you have lots of options. In the books of course The Forsaken knew he was probably going to attempt it sometime, and they were under orders to stop him if he did...but when he actually did it..they were all caught off guard. So let's assume they were forewarned here's some stuff he could have concoted up:

-The Forsaken have pre-arranged plans to open massive Gateways from the Blight to wherever the cleansing is taking place. They already have a large horde assembled (or several smaller yet still large hordes) in the blight. They then flood the area with Trollocs and Fade's as well as other Shadowspawn. If they are cautious they do this with alot of seperate Gateways (maybe using something like what they tricked the Shaido into using but without it being random or whatever happened with those gateways). So all around Shadar Logoth you have dozens if not hundreds of Gateways opening up quickly and disgorging thousands of Trollocs and Fade's. Not to mention bringing in some Draghkar and Darkhounds. This could be quite nasty for your group alone...but we won't stop there.

-Conceivably there is probably a way to bring in the Seanchan here too given enough forewarning (since Suroth is a darkfriend and all). So maybe some random gateways pop open and in come some Seanchan. Think of a reason why the Seanchan will go through the Gateway or why the Forsaken will allow the damane/sul'dam to learn the weave themselves.

-For extra fun unleash a Gholam (or two...or three). This is going to seriously give Channelers a headache.

So...these all require pretty detailed plans made in advance by the Shadow. It's your campaign so "by the books" these wouldn't/couldn't have happened. But in your campaign nothing has to follow the books exactly which you know since your lookign for ways to deviate anyway smile.gif These are just some thoughts, nothing too complex but in all can be a huge pain for the good guys. Mini-Tarmon Gaidon here we come!


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alohahaha
Posted: Mar 17 2004, 09:45 PM
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That's a really good idea, Entropic. Another possibility is to get Mazrim Taim involved. It's unsure about whether or not he's a Darkfriend or he just wants to kill Rand for his own reasons, but if you want to use Taim as a Darkfriend you could have one of the Forsaken call to him for help, and he would then summon his chosen Asha'man to join the Forsaken in the attack against Rand. Remember, Rand told Taim about his plan to cleanse saidin quite a bit before he actually did it. Seeing as how the Forsaken didn't know about it until it happens mean that Taim didn't tell them. He didn't tell them either because he didn't think Rand was serious or he's not a Darkfriend. If you choose to make him a Darkfriend, however, just have him arrive with a few Asha'man, and even maybe a few Aes Sedai of the Black Ajah. It's your game, dude. Do as thou wilt.


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I may be in the gutter
But I'm looking to the stars!
Shatter your rose-colored glasses
But never stop dreaming.
I may have my feet down to earth
But my head is always in the clouds.
I won't promise you the sun and the moon
But I can tell you fantasies of far greater things
While providing you with simple pleasures.
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Mar 18 2004, 06:55 PM
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I think the Forsaken knew he was going to attempt to do it at some point (I remember from the Forsaken's point of view thinking it was impossible blah blah blah but if he attempted it they couldn't let him do it because it would be robbing them of one of the Dark One's Ace of Spade's so to speak.) However the Forsaken thought it was more brovado than anything and didn't know he had the Choedan Kal so they never made plans for it, didn't know how he would try it (since none of them could figure out a way to do it how could this sheepherder do it right?), and had no idea when he would do it. So I think Taim probably did let one of his handlers (if he is a darkfriend) know that Rand had told him his ultimate goal was to cleanse the Taint, they just thought it was little more than a boast.

But I love the idea of throwing Taim in. It kickstarts the schism of the Black Tower a little early but would make for some really good extrapolation type adventurers. Let's you try and predict thing that might actually happen in forthcoming books smile.gif If you throw Taim into the mix I wouldn't hesitate to get Logain and his loyalists involved as well, coming to the aid of the Dragon Reborn when things look to be grimmest.


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Mantyluoto
Posted: Mar 18 2004, 11:15 PM
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i'm pretty sure lanfear new that he had the statuettes, when he got them in the waste. and what about Asmodean didn't he know too. yes i know they both died (or did they) but if they didn't surely they would have told the big bad boss man.


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