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> Cuendillar Armour, yes thats right heartstone :)
phrostphyre
Posted: Sep 20 2004, 11:56 PM
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Why?

This is how I see it... smile.gif

Anyone powerful enough to create Cuendillar can probably Earth Delve for a chunk of iron themselves. Bring it to the surface and fashion it in to a long narrow blade, sharpened by the one power. Remember that Cuendillar is unbreakable so it doesn't matter how thin or fragile the weapon looks. Imagine a ruler, made from metal, sharpened and turned to Cuendillar.. simplistic I know, but casting a hollow shell to then pour molten bronze in to is going to create a pretty thick blade.

Failing that, the same chap goes to a weaponsmiths, purchases a rapier and turns it in to Cuendillar. Job done.

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drothgery
Posted: Sep 21 2004, 12:36 AM
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Leane Sharif, who's quite weak by Aes Sedai standards in her post-Healed from Stilling form, is quite adept at making heartstone.

This post has been edited by drothgery on Sep 21 2004, 12:36 AM


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 21 2004, 03:16 AM
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part of the reason swords are made the shape they are made (even today) is because they require a certain shape and the sharpening needs to have a certain degree to it or else they do not work they way they are intended to. a razor blade may cut wonderfully but a superlong razorblade would not cleave the way a bastardsword would.

secondly, rapiers were intended as primarily piercing weapons, were rarely used for slashing historically, and were made out of highly refined steel not iron.
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Zarozynia
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 04:32 AM
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okay, Niveus, going to be a pain in the butt here about something...

I like the way that you've written this up. And I will write it up multiple ways BUT what I need to know, is whether your damage reduction is correct at only a 4/-. Basically, was looking over the DR for Starwars armor and the DR for most medium armor is just what you have listen BUT my understanding of the type of the armor that you are trying to create is that it should have the DR of heavy armor while only having the heaviness of medium armor. The few heavy armors listed have DRs of 6 and 7.

I could very well be misinterpreting what you are trying to do with your cuellindar coating on lighter armor underneath...but as is, all that you created was medium armor.

a thought anyways.

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Niveus
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 04:40 AM
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yeah i thought it was a little low too but i only own 3.0 DMG and players so i was kinda winging it


BAM I'll kick it up a notch! lol


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MagusRogue
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 06:42 AM
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eh... if it grants both a Defense bonus AND DR, then 4/- is actually high. As the rule in the Unearthed Arcana book goes, Armor as DR grants DR equal to half the armor bonus (round down) and a Defense bonus equal to the old armor bonus - DR. Defense bonus from Armor is not compatable with Defense Bonus from Class, unless you have Armor Compatability.

Another look, as I have ran into the ground by now, is Adamantium, the special metal, that grants a DR 3/- to heavy armors and reduces armor check penalties by -1 to represent the masterwork quality (all adamantine suits are masterwork) as well as the full armor bonus. Thus, an Adamantine Full Plate Armor grants a +8 defense bonus, DR 3/- (remember, dr is ignored by energy damage of any kind, as well as spell damage), -5 armor check penalty, Speed 20ft, Run x3, and weighs 50 lb (i think).

So, if you want this suit of armor to still grant a FULL defense bonus, you kinda need to lower the DR. otherwise it's a bit too much.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 06:02 PM
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oh and a problem with cuendillar weapons. As pointed out, it doesn't matter how strong the blade is, just how it's built. In fact, a cuendillar blade won't really do much at all, less than a normal steel one. Part of the slashing ability is the blade's ability to give and bend slightly. If you improperly temper a blade to the point where it's as rigid as possible, then that blade's gonna shatter the first time it hits metal armor. Cuendillar is likewise too rigid. While it won't shatter, it won't go as deeply either due to the reverb. *is an apprentice blacksmith*


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 06:41 PM
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Exactly what Magus said smile.gif

Mag are you in SCA, where did you start learning smithing? smile.gif
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Zarozynia
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 06:44 PM
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Actual Magus, the way that I'm doing DR is that it's entirely DR not both, per Starwars armor rules. So that bonus will be fine for me. I'm going to write it up as either/or not both. So it shouldn't be a problem.

Niveus, another thought, when looking through Starwars. What if we re-lowed the DR to say 4 and then said that the DR on the armor goes up when hit with energy weapons (which most weapons in the AoL are), each time adding a plus one for a certain amount of time, to a max bonus of +8. That seems to better represent the fact that cuellidar gets stronger when you try to do something to it.

This post has been edited by Zarozynia on Sep 22 2004, 06:48 PM


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Aleshandre
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 06:54 PM
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I have always had a problem with the assumption that cuendillar is somehow lighter than the iron that is used in its making. There are no statements to indicate whether it is lighter or heavier than iron or steel. clearly, it is significantly stronger, but it is quite possible that it is heavier not lighter. Operating on the logical assumption (since no mention was made of it being significantly lighter or significantly heavier), Cuendillar would be about the same weight as the iron. On that basis, Cuendillar weapons would be just as effective as any steel weapon. The only stipulation that I would make is that the weapon is indestructible. I would not give them any bonus to attack or to damage.


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Niveus
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 07:18 PM
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yes i see your point the best possible way to deal with Cuendillar is to say it has inifnate hardness and as a result it will ignore all hardness in any other material

but in game terms this is a little too powerful unless we lay ground rules that show how even while clad in Cuendillar you can be harmed

first question yes culindar is indestructible fine but if i crush a can im not destroying the aliminium im just bending it so if i arms of air someone and then crush them???



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Llewin
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 07:23 PM
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well i'm not sure about changing the shape of the cuendillar because i think part of the indestructability is being locked in to the particular atomic bonding it was in when it was created from the base-metal..

however if we're talking damaged by the OP... fire? lightning? cold? removing air? there are a lot of non-direct assaults that would still hurt someone inside heartstone armor..

if we're talking about hurting with a weapon... no matter what kind of armor you have, it still has places it doesnt cover.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 07:29 PM
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doesn't adamantine weapons ignore all hardness, except for other things made of adamantine? You know, in effect, all cuendillar is IS adamantine. And with serious effort, you can break cuendillar. just takes ALOT. Remember, in dnd that adamantine has a hardness of 20 or 30, and 40 hp per inch. That's pretty close to indestructable to me, as ANY weapon in Wheel of Time won't be able to do 20 points of damage, let alone 30 if the latter is correct, and even weaves have a hard time doing enough damage to beat that kind of hardness. Like I said, I see Cuendillar as simply being Adamantine by another name and color.

edit: just looked up adamantine. Yup, it ignroes all hardnesses less than 20 if made into a weapon. Hardness 20, increases the hp of all weapons, armor, and shields its made of by 1/3. So... lets do some math. Take the strongest crit weapon you can (a scythe. 2d4, x4 crit). At the most, even with power attack and a strenght of 18 and weapon specialize, you'll do (8 + 4 str + 10 power attack +2 weapon spec) 24 hp, barely enough to scratch an armor made of adamantine. And that's a pretty heroic attack. On a crit, at the most, is 48 (32 + 4 str + 10 power attack + 2 spec), which is enough to destroy most weapons. However, the chances of doing that much damage is pretty high. I don't like the idea of things being, no matter what, indestructable. Otherwise, you can make a siege tower of cuendillar, use arrow slits, and take out the Blight.

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Sep 22 2004, 07:35 PM


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 07:31 PM
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I guess what we need to decided is do we want cuendillar as a weapon/armor to be as close to the descriptions given by RJ in the books as possible or do we want it to be playably used...

from what we can tell according to RJ it is 100% indestructable, excepting it seems, by the taint of the DO? Now that's just conjecture related to the seals disintegrating over time...

*edited for spelling*

This post has been edited by Llewin on Sep 22 2004, 07:34 PM
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MagusRogue
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 07:37 PM
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*nods up to my edit* as i said, with no crit but best damage roll, a person can do 4 points of damage to something made of cuendillar. with a crit, thats 28. That's still a pretty damn near indestructable item. I like KISS, but i also like a tad bit of balance.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 08:26 PM
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If you want balance, don't allow Cuendillar armor or weapons. That is as simple as it gets.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Sep 22 2004, 11:39 PM
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true. *G* I guess, if you want realism, that Cuendillar Weapons Ignore Hardness/DR, and Cuendillar Armor grants DR based on the armor category. Regardless, against sunder attempts, Cuendillar is invincible.


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 23 2004, 12:07 AM
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Well yes, very true, unless we make the current armor that made in the age rand is alive in super heavy or some such thing so that its nearly impossible to move in...
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Sep 23 2004, 03:19 PM
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Frankly, I think the more common mentality of the War of Power in combat wasn't to necessarily have the biggest armor, but to not be seen at all. With the one power, balefire, and shock lances, you didn't really want to rely on armor anyway. That's why the one instance in the book where we have a soldier mentioned he is wearing fancloth not heartstone armor. I suppose you could have heavy soldiers, but what good would it be when a channeler could just put a mountain on top of them. Best to not be seen at all.

Just my opinion on the matter, and why I won't allow heartstone armor in my campaign. I understand that it is possible to make, and if a player could explain to me how his channeler was going to make it, and the channler could make heartstone, then I would work out the mechanics. But I don't believe that will ever happen. Not anytime soon atleast.


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 23 2004, 06:26 PM
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You make a good point, Sharn. Lets even look at the world today, which is not nearly as advanced as the Age of Legends would have been... the only 'heavy' troops we really have now adays are those who drive or ride in vehicles... everyone else wears basic lightly armor helmets and vests and camoflage... Running around in gleaming white armor on a field of battle where laser rifles, balls of fire, and giant sho-cars firing even bigger lasers etc are around wouldnt be wise would it?

However, that said, there's no reason to assume that no one would use cuendillar as a defensive measure and so coming up with a well balanced concept on its creation and implimentation is a great idea, and one that fits this entire board's exact purpose as I understand it smile.gif

~llewin
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