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Primal Paladin22
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 10:19 PM
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I don't know guys, with all due respect to the peaple who developed the Wheel of Time RPG, it feels an awful lot like the peaple who put it together just didn't spend that much time on it. I mean like Star Wars RPG is really cool and really captures the feel of the fantasy behind it. To me this game has allot of holes. Especially when it comes to the one power. I think that the weaves are often not leveled right and I think that allot of them did not get alot of thought put into them.


Example Cutting Lines of Fire it is a level 7-9 weave. if you compare its characteristics to those of 7-9 level spells in standard D&D it is way under powered unless I am reading it wrong.

The same is true for Immolate it does 1d6 p/ channeler level damage to a single target. The medium size nonflammable object should be 3rd level max if you line it up by comparing standard D&D spells.

The problem is that to do an eqivalant dmg caost a much higher spell slot that it would in the standard D&D game. This may be contraversial but I am new to this game and you all are the only peaple I know who play it so bust me up but don't think badly of me.



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Zifnab
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 11:11 PM
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The fact that the weaves are in general less powerful than D&D spells doesn't concern me - WoT has no real magic items to speak of so the weaves, in general, are plenty powerful. What concerns me are the weaves that are far too weak compared to the others, such as Cutting Lines of Fire. That does what, 2d12 reflex for half? For like 7th level and up? That's terrible.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 11:21 PM
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Yeah I am thinking that the level progression should be more like 1,2,3. I am also makeing it a ranged touch attack. I mean it does have good range and just from the description one could use it to effectively take down most barriers so it is still cool but it just doesn't need to be such a high level.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: May 1 2004, 03:07 AM
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Of course WoT spells don't need to be able to dish out anywhere near the same amount of damage that spells in DnD do. Why? Little to no healing. Even with a Sedai with Healing weaves in the party it's not like having the handy dandy cleric in DnD along for the ride. While my party hasn't entered into the higher levels yet it seems to me most things are working fine. I know I've had the party on the verge of complete death several times now and they still haven't been up against a channeler.


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Zarozynia
Posted: May 1 2004, 03:22 AM
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Yeah, honestly channelers are WAY POWERFUL and it doesn't take them very long to get that way. I just pitted my party against three red ajah, and mind you my party consists of six almost six level characters, one of which is a male wilder, plus they had the help of Mazrim Taim and a female wilder (low level) who they were supposted to take to the White Tower...and those three channelers along could have decimated the entire party in a matter of rounds if they hadn't been after Taim. And the only weave that I had them use was lightning...but that alone at the lowest level does 5d10 damage to the person that it hits, and 1d10 to everybody within five ft. of that person. And only one of my characters, the armsman, has 50 vit points (I use the vit/wound point system instead of HP), so potentially I could have gone into wound points with five of my characters in one hit. I killed the female wilder accidentally. huh.gif


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Jonathan
Posted: May 1 2004, 06:37 AM
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"The problem with" you is...
...that you don't know how to title a ****ing thread.
...complain far more than you offer useful anything.
...you use six periods for an ellipse when all you are supposed to use is three.
...need to learn how to play someone else's game because you don't seem to know the first thing about game creation.
...you now regret your crappy naming of this thread.
...you should've named this thread "The problems with..."

Yes, I am frustrated with you now. More so because I just realized there is no ignore option on this board. ****! Thread Titles are supposed to give an idea of the contents of a thread, not the opening of the first sentence.

Will a moderator please lock this thread. Nothing good will come of it because all PP wants to do is complain.

-Jonathan


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Mantyluoto
Posted: May 1 2004, 08:55 AM
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Jonathan,

QUOTE
The problem with" you is...
...that you don't know how to title a ****ing thread.
...complain far more than you offer useful anything.
...you use six periods for an ellipse when all you are supposed to use is three.
...need to learn how to play someone else's game because you don't seem to know the first thing about game creation.
...you now regret your crappy naming of this thread.
...you should've named this thread "The problems with..."

Yes, I am frustrated with you now. More so because I just realized there is no ignore option on this board. ****! Thread Titles are supposed to give an idea of the contents of a thread, not the opening of the first sentence.

Will a moderator please lock this thread. Nothing good will come of it because all PP wants to do is complain.


thats a bit harsh mate. since your the only one who finds this thread offensive.

ive been on this board before the old WotC one closed down and since you've joined there been more animosity than ever. NOBODY is perfect and i thought the idea of these message boards was to put your view across. you don't have to agree with the posts or the posters ideas but verbal attacks like that are just a waste of everyones time.

we all play our games how we play them. i dont agree with alot of what you say but do i call you a tosser, or similar because of it.

PP22 might be annoying sometimes but who isn't. ask Magus since i routinely get on his nerves.

oh and is that the proper way for a site moderator to act? since thats what you seem to be.

I realise replying this way may offend but then it didn't stop you did it?





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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: May 1 2004, 09:31 AM
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Getting back on the subject at hand, I agree that some of the things in this game are probably not entirely well thought out. There's the wilder-initiate debate. The Armor Compatibility debate. The algai'd'siswai debate. Channeling fatigue, wolfbrothers, classes, the channeling system as a whole, and so many other things. I've heard lots of people praise the channeling system, and many try to rewrite it because they don't like it. I've got many house rules myself. Jonathan's right about one thing (though he could have said it a bit more tactfully). House Rules are great. When you have a better idea, write it out and use it!
Now, as for the weaves, those specific ones. Be careful when you compare D&D (a high-magic setting) to Wheel of Time (a low-magic setting). Like Zifnab and Entropic Existence stated, anyone who can channel has a huge advantage just in the fact that they can channel. I'm playing in a campaign where one of the characters is an OK fighter who makes herself a dominant one by abusing Harden Air. A lot. Piece of cake. What's an armsman gonna do when he's frozen in midair? Flex? Glare? Look scared? I get your point, but it's a powerful weave for this system, in my opinion, so it should be high-level.


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TwangCat
Posted: May 1 2004, 12:08 PM
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I'm inclined to agree with what most people have said thus far. WoT is a low magic setting, channellers are almost always the most powerful people in the party. Over all I've got to say I don't think the weaves need to be equal to D&D in their power level. Some of my players have been trying to convert D&D arcane spells into WoT weaves and I've almost always been doubling the weave level or more.
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Aleshandre
Posted: May 1 2004, 12:52 PM
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Jonathan,

After reading the entire thread, I see no reason to lock it. The only complaints that I saw were your complaints about the title and contents of the thread and the quality of the author's posts. You do need to calm down alittle.


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MagusRogue
Posted: May 1 2004, 02:23 PM
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about the only thing i say about cutting lines of fire is that it should completely ignore hardness and DR, as the text implies it goes through anything with ease. Also, it's a cone attack, with a greater radius than fireball at higher levels, and 2d12 isn't that bad at all. Now, is it a bit overpriced, perhaps. But it can also cut through just about anything, ignores cover (fireball won't) and such.
To sum it up:

In my games, i have it ignore all Hardness/DR, and it ignores cover too. That balances with a fairly low damage. Also, don't knock a cone attack, which'll attack quite a bit more than a burst effect.


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shaddix
Posted: May 1 2004, 03:40 PM
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Before any of you start reading this post let me say a few things. I'm new here, I don't know what the cliques are around here and I could really care less. Point two, I'm not going to offer an opinion on the current question of weave power levels, so if that's what you're looking for please skip this post. What I am going to to do is offer some general reflections on the state of this thread and on it's the author's original intent as I see it.
PP22 makes a statement about the overall quality of the game and the time taken to put it together. It seems he is questioning the amount of thought put into the game mechanics as they apply to weaves specifically. Well imho he's both right and horribly wrong.
The D20 system in and of itself does not really support the ideas of high fantasy magic as presented by such esteemed authors as Jordan, Tolkien, Brooks, etc. It just doesn't, it was never really meant to. The D20 magic system was an attempt to update for a new generation the basic concepts of magic and it's use (in games of course) as laid forth by those great grandfathers of our hobby, Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax.
So if the D20 system doesn't allow for an interpretaion of magic anywhere close to the author's (in the case Jordan) vision for the use of magic in his creation why use it? That one is simple people, marketing. See Decipher's LotR RPG... how many people are playing it right now? Nevermind it is based on the most popular fantasy work ever written, the system isn't D20. For good or bad we are beginning to find ourselves in a one system fits all world.
Not everyone is happy in a one system world, and there will be those who want to change major things about the D20 system, not only to fit in with their vision of specific fantasy worlds, but in worlds of their own creation. Those people are NOT wrong nor are they right. They just are.
From what I can tell PP22 simpy asked a question and in so doing expressed an opinion. While I choose to disagree with him in his assertion that the WoT game was poorly concieved, that does not invalidate the question.
For most of this post I have probably been preaching to the choir but like I said I'm new here... it is my sincere hope (and by the responses I have seen to the remarks of a certian poster) that this is a place for the questioning and sharing of ideas as they apply to the WoT game. Not a place where dogmatic adherence to a rule book cloud the reason we're all here; to enhance the enjoyment we derive from endulging in our beloved hobby.

(Does anyone else almost missed the days when we were all a bunch of misunderstood outcast who stuck together out of necessity?)
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Aleshandre
Posted: May 1 2004, 04:10 PM
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Hey Shad, Welcome to the Boards.

The only clique here is the WoT fans. Anything more than that is just the difference between freinds and neighbors. We all pretty much have our own oppinions on how things should work, but usually our discussions don't require any moderation. You will get to know who the vets and newbies are fairly soon, but even with that distinction, we are usually a fairly freindly bunch. Even us "moderators" don't think of ourselves as any better than anyone else.


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Sa_sara
Posted: May 1 2004, 05:05 PM
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*grins*
oooh...yeah
they also left out some huge chunks of the world as well as did a lousy job on some of the things they did do however -- forcing us, of necessity, to own and read even the Big Book of Bad Art to know our way around and develop stats for everything...then they made a book of wretched adventures which no one really likes but contained six full pages that contained one critical rule to playing the game!
Wizards pretty much saw money and ignored a need for real honest effort. WoT fans were hungry for something and they were starved for it, unlike D&D fans in general (who have tons of resources and need not put up with garbage).
I can't complain about my buying the book though...because the core rules cost me $15 at a closing store...

I simply think it's safe to say that the writers weren't hardcore WoT fans like us an didn't give it the extra care and thought we do


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Mantyluoto
Posted: May 1 2004, 07:32 PM
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Shaddix, you sound like you've been posting on this board for ages. biggrin.gif welcome.


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Jonathan
Posted: May 1 2004, 07:58 PM
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Yes I am pissed. (again mostly because there is no ignore list on this... what the heck with the programmers smoking?!?)

So I will say this: Do whatever the hell you want to your game. Throw in Saiyans, throw in Mecha, throw in Cuellindar Mecha that double as Sa'Angreals. It is your campaign, tweak whatever the heck you want. Don't expect 100% of people to agree with you 100% of the time.

-Jonathan


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drothgery
Posted: May 1 2004, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (Two Rivers Wolfbrother @ May 1 2004, 01:31 AM)
Be careful when you compare D&D (a high-magic setting) to Wheel of Time (a low-magic setting). Like Zifnab and Entropic Existence stated, anyone who can channel has a huge advantage just in the fact that they can channel.

WoT is most certainly not a low magic setting. It's a setting where magic items are rare, and wielders of magic work under strong social constraints. But it's also a setting where weilders of magic can have great power, and where they are anything but uncommon. It is a setting where even the weakest magic-users can dominate a small-scale engagement when faced by skilled enemies that have no magic of their own.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 1 2004, 09:23 PM
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Two things, first if Jon keeps crawlin up my @$$ I am going to have to change my screen name to Butt-gnome Bait. laugh.gif

Second, I have never said that anyone should agree with me on anything. It is my perogative to try to convince others of my beliefs, if they engage me in an open and reasonable discourse. The definition of the word forum is, A public meeting place for the purpose of discussion. I have said before that I am on an island when it comes to WoTRPG. I am very thankful for the community here and for all the input I get on my threads.

I don't mind getting ripped. It helps me to get the negative input as well as the positive. I brain storm much better when in a group, so a message board like this one is perfect for me. However, I do not want to be censored because any body does not agree with the content or tone of my post, provided I am not breaking the rules put forth by the mods.

Having read the origanal post I do appologize for the shoddy title and the helter skelter way my thoughts took shape. I was extremely tired when I wrote it.

Now, for my butt-gnome, you cannot get my blood up by critisizing me, that is the reason I put my unfinished thoughts on the board, to get any, ANY, input I can. You obviuosly, for some reason I cannot dicern, take personal offense with the fact that I don't like the way the game as is relates to Jordan's books.

I think the game is a good product by and large, but it just doesn't translate the novels well for me. It is ok if you like it. In fact, you don't need my or anyone elses approval to validate that you like it as is. You do need to learn a little composure if you want to debate me in a reasonable and civil tone. I feel no need to have said debate, and I would hope that you don't either as I am wise enough to know that there is nothing to prove. The fact is simply, I like it my way and you like it yours. I have tried to express this to you before.

If you continue to fell the need to attack me personally or if I continue to angst you up then let me know and I will start a thread especially for you, so that you don't have to keep highjcking my topics. My be we can call it Home of The Gnome. Let me know.

Oh yeah, the only reason you read my posts is that you click on them. If you want to ignore them, ignore them. Don't sit around waiting for big brother to do it just don't click'em.

Peace
J

This post has been edited by Primal Paladin22 on May 2 2004, 02:52 AM


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Mantyluoto
Posted: May 1 2004, 10:33 PM
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PP22

your a bad man, funny but bad.

guys like numerous people have said we all dont agree. slagging each other off just causes bad feeling.

if you've got a problem with what someone is saying don't slag anyone off just reply calmly.

now can we get back to the thread please.


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shaddix
Posted: May 1 2004, 11:08 PM
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Thanks for the welcome Mantyluoto and Aleshandre. One more thing before we let this argument that started as an honest question thread go.
Is there really need for an ignore option? I'm confused...you can ignore people on a messanger service but on a message board you just choose not to read the offending person's post. Call it a built in ignore. blink.gif
I'm in agreement with drothgery on the magic level of the WoT novels and game. The magic level is intense. We are conditioned to believe it's a low magic world if there aren't scores of magical items lying around every dark, dank place our entrepid heroes might tread or there's not some all knowing Gandalf rip off hanging around with an ever smoking pipe. This simply isn't true. When compared to other great fantasy works the WoT is very much a high magic world. This should in some way transport itself into game terms if we as players and DMs are going to recapture any of the magic we felt, any of the splendor we were exposed to in our reading of the novels. I think the question we all have to answer for ourselves is how best to accomplish this.
One way we are never going to accomplish this is by skewering each other about little things like our incorrect puncuation, poor spelling (hey instead of an ignore feature we need a spell check... then I'd feel less like a turd when I reread my own post), or the way we title a post. That having been said I would like to officially thank PP22 for his use of somewhat standard paragraphs as they make it easier for me to keep up with his train of thought wink.gif
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