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Entropic_existence |
Posted:
Jul 24 2004, 04:39 AM
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 188 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
oh I completely agree with you. Of course I think
generally Lews Therin's soul would be the one carrying the Dragon Banner. ![]() -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Axel |
Posted:
Jul 27 2004, 02:50 PM
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Freelance HTML coder (hint Aleshandre) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 253 Member No.: 54 Joined: 23-January 04 ![]() |
Actually, we know that everybody is reborn. It
appears to be taken for granted by the people of the Third Age that all
souls are recycled over and over. But it is Heroes who are bound to the
pattern that are consistantly spun out to repeat the same story. The Horn
binds new Heroes to itself and when blown summons these Heroes from the
World of Dreams. The Champions of the Dark are spun out the same as the
Heroes of the Light, the Horn is special only in summoning Heroes who
haven't been spun out naturally. -------------------- Honorary Paladin of the Lawful Naughty If I seem to hate the d20 system, its only because I hate the system. Actually I just hate 3e, its biased me against the system. I rather like WoT. |
Aleshandre |
Posted:
Jul 27 2004, 06:08 PM
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 219 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Only the souls of the Heroes of the Horn wait in
Tel'aran'rhiod to be spun out or to be called by the Horn. The rebirth
that others experience is more of an afterlife type concept, not a
physical rebirth. If the same people are reborn with no knowledge of their
previous lives in the same circumstances each time the Wheel cycles, the
Pattern would never change, because the people would make the same
decisions, having learned nothing from the previous turning of the Wheel,
thus for the Pattern to change with each turning, the majority of the
people must be spun out for the first time so that the Pattern can change.
-------------------- |
Entropic_existence |
Posted:
Jul 30 2004, 12:31 AM
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 188 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Right, I think the point is that threads (i.e. souls)
are reused by the Pattern. When you die your thread is conserved and
reused later...however you are a different person (why you don't make the
same decisions) The Heroes of the Horn are fated to replay the same roles for the most part, reside in the World of Dreams when they are not in the world, etc. As for Champions of the Dark...Ishamael claims that he has been reborn again and again to serve the same role but remember....that guys is at least half-mad anyway. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Kathax Mosail Rishaem |
Posted:
Aug 11 2004, 06:40 PM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 23 Member No.: 134 Joined: 14-April 04 ![]() |
okay, i may be wrong in this, and i'll have to look
in the books again, but aren't the heroes more properly labeled "heroes
bound to the wheel"? -------------------- Where am I going? And why am I in this
handbasket?? |
Aleshandre |
Posted:
Aug 11 2004, 08:35 PM
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 219 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
There have been a few different titles for them, but
they all pretty much boil down to Heroes of the Horn.
-------------------- |
Foxhead |
Posted:
Aug 12 2004, 08:49 AM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 30 Member No.: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 ![]() |
Aleshandre, neither you, nor anyone else who shares
your point of wiev on mat and his connection to the pattern and to the
horn had gave me one proff of your theory. All you have in reality is
mist... If he was already the HoH, wouldn't the heroes greet him, as they
did for Rand? And why would Briggite keep away from him in the willage, on
the way to Ebou Dar, and for some time in Ebou Dar? I mean, if he was the
HoH, she would know him quite well, and wouldn't have to fear of beeing
exposed. My theory offers logical explanation for Mat's thousands of old memories, and I offer one proff, although it's strenght is quite questionable, it's stil more then what I have seen from your side so far. I ask you just to reconsider the fact that I use as a proff: Mat's luck had gone mad, not after he got dagger, not after he was partaily or fully healed from the damge of the dagger, not after he had blown the horn; but after the horn was found at the Eye. And for Dragon being Hero, here is a fact you overlooked: Dragon is not allways a hero of the Light, and there was never even an implication of HoH being anything but light. And, if I'm not mistaking, Jordan himself said once, I just don't remember where, That the souls of ordinarly people, after death, go to some attachment world of T.A.R. -------------------- Freak, an' damn proud of
it! |
Aleshandre |
Posted:
Aug 12 2004, 03:39 PM
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 219 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Both Rand and Perrin also experienced an increase in
the effects of thier being Ta'veren at the Eye of the World. To say that
Mat's increase in luck has nothing to do with being Ta'veren overlooks the
fact that Ta'veren affect the world around them in different ways. In the
case of Mat, it is primarilly his luck. For Perrin, it is primarilly the
way that people take him as a great leader regardless of his experience or
even lack thereof. For Rand, important things simply fall into line, while
everything else goes haywire. The luck is primarilly a matter of Mat being
Ta'veren, not necessarilly having anything to do with the Horn itself.
Most of Mat's memories (all of the ones that are his) tell him that he has
always been lucky - in every life. Birgitte's avoidance of Mat can be
explained by the fact that she knew that no person who is spun out
naturally remembers their past lives. That lack of Mat remembering could
be what Birgitte feared. Remember though that she ended up drinking with
Mat for hours, both speaking entirely in the Old Tongue. That hardly shows
continued fear of being discovered. As I said before, I am using RJ's own construct for proof that Mat is a Hero of the Horn. Further, Mat was addressed by Artur Hawkwing as "Hornsounder", as did the Eelfinn and Aelfinn. Clearly Mat has been the Hornsounder more than once and thus is bound to the Horn. If bound to the Horn, then a Hero of the Horn. We have several items now that demonstrate that Mat can be a HotH in the true sense of the term; 1. Mat has been spun out repeatedly in the pattern. 2. Mat is bound to the Horn by having sounded it. 3. Mat was recognized by atleast 1 Hero of the Horn (probably 2, but since we don't have Birgitte's PoV, we don't know that for certain). 4. Mat has been recognized by the Eelfinn and Aelfinn as the Hornsounder. 5. In each of his previous lives, Mat was a great General and usually one with a grand reputation. You on the other hand are using evidence that can be used either direction as proof of your hypothesis, which uses a construct that was not originated by Robert Jordan. Don't get me wrong, your hypothesis makes sense, but there is no reason to add a new construct, simply to make an hypothesis fit within the novels. -------------------- |
Foxhead |
Posted:
Aug 13 2004, 08:47 AM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 30 Member No.: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 ![]() |
sorry doubble post This post has been edited by Foxhead on Aug 13 2004, 08:52 AM -------------------- Freak, an' damn proud of
it! |
Foxhead |
Posted:
Aug 13 2004, 08:50 AM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 30 Member No.: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 ![]() |
You're just repeating yourself. I still se nothing
but mist to support your side of theorie. And, no I did not overlook the
fact of him being Ta'veren. But, if you look more clearly, and analyticaly
into it, The ta'veren-ism of those tree works in asame way-making things
that had nearly no chance of happening happen, and to add just his one
bitt, that you 'forgoten', people take both Rand and Mat as great leaders,
no less then they do Perrin, but neither Rand, nor Perrin has the amout of
Mat's luck. And, by the strenght of Ta'veren, Shouldn't the Rand be the
luckiest, if, as by your claim should be, Ta'verenism can raise Ta'verens
personal luck. But, if he was HoH, Briggite would now his character, his core, well enough to know there is no reason to fear from him, as she found out latter, after what both of them went of drinking, and becoming best mates I just have to notifie you that you should stop acting like a whitecloak, expecting that only your wiev on things is the right one. I'm ready to accept you're side, if I get a strong enough proff, but you would not even stop to think about the possibility of mine having a chance of being the right one. I'll give you a question to argument about chance of a theorie: is Halennian black spear better soldier than Plythemar Tak-taal? You don't know, because the answer can be found only in authors head, and nowhere else, but you can theorise and take a guess,and that guess has some chance (50% in this particular case) of being the right one. "Mat was addressed by Artur Hawkwing as "Hornsounder", as did the Eelfinn and Aelfinn. Clearly Mat has been the Hornsounder more than once and thus is bound to the Horn." Hawkwing never called him "Hornsounder", Briggite did. And it goes with my theorie as much as with yours. -------------------- Freak, an' damn proud of
it! |
Aleshandre |
Posted:
Aug 13 2004, 01:33 PM
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 219 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I object to being called a whitecloak. I am not
saying that you are evil for disagreeing with me. I am simply pointing out
that your theory doesn't really have enough support. You are right, that
the answer can only be found in the mind of RJ. You are also right that a
Hero of the Horn calling Mat Hornsounder can be used for either side of
the arguement. That is exactly my point. The difference between our
theories is that I use RJ's construct of Heroes of the Horn and you
created a new construct. That being the case, you need more support than I
do. Your argument needs to support that there is another construct
that spins out "hornsounders" repeatedly, who are not Heroes of the Horn,
but people specifically chosen to sound the Horn of Valere. That construct
has not been supported in any of your arguements, except that you made a
vague refference to a memory of something that Robert Jordan might
have said. If he did indeed say it, you will need to find it written
somewhere reliable, so that you can provide a citation for it. If my
arguements and the evidence that I cited are "mist" then you need to look
at your own, because yours have exactly as much substance as mine, but
yours lack support for a new construct of Hero of the Pattern -
not bound to the Horn of Valere in the same way as the Heroes of the Horn,
but destined to sound it. Man, that construct sounds contrived. As I
said, either a person is a Hero of the Horn or they are not. There is no
inbetween that has any support in the Wheel of Time series or in any other
statement that I know of from RJ. -------------------- |
Entropic_existence |
Posted:
Aug 14 2004, 04:10 PM
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 188 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I'd like to point out that Mat's memories aren't from
past lives. Mat's memories are memories he recived on the other side of
the twisted doorway ter'angreal in Rhuidean in order to fill the memories
his experience with the SL dagger erased. RJ has said that this will be
explained a little more fully in Book 11 as to how he can have memories of
dieing when obviously those people did not die in finnland. Check out the
question of the week section on the official website for this. His
memories can't be reawakened past lives because many of those memories
overlap in time frames. Birgitte avoids Mat because she knows he was at Falme, when Heroes of the Horn are spun out they have absolutly no rememberances of their previous lives, only when they are in Tel'Aran'Rhiod is this so. Birgitte fears Mat will inadvertently blurt something out where others that should not hear would. When Mat makes a few slips with the Old Tongue and they go on their drinking spree she no longer fears because she knows he has just as big of a secret as she does. This situation in no way supports either argument in the debate in my opinion. As Aleshandre said ALL of the three main Heroes have their Ta'vereness kicked up a notch after the Eye of the World, not just Mat. And really Mat's stuff really kicks into overdrive after his experience in Rhuidean. It is after that that we start to see the dice tumbling in his head, etc. As for whether the Dragon is always a champion of the Light or not... I think he is. Remember it is only Ishamael who has said the Dragon has sometimes served the Shadow, and Ishamael is a)crazy and b)trying to turn Rand to the dark side at this point. In my opinion if the Dragon ever does go to the Shadow the odds of the Shadow then winning, breaking the Wheel, etc,etc is probably almost guarenteed. Given the Dragon is Ta'veren, and Ta'veren are even more tightly bound by the Wheel than anyone else, it seems contradictory for the Wheel allow something to happen that would increase the liklihood of it's balance being broken. Of course the Wheel does also strive for balance, so perhaps the Dragon going bad on occassion is a balancing factor. Point is it is a philosophical debate that only RJ can answer. However I still throw my weight behind the argument that Heroes of the Horn are the only ones bound to the Pattern, as Aleshandre said it follows the construct already presented by the book, rather than needing to make up a new one to support a theory. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Aleshandre |
Posted:
Aug 14 2004, 04:31 PM
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 219 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Actually RJ said in the Tor Question a week for RJ that some of the memories are Mat's from past lives and some are from other people who went through the doorway Ter'angreal. He did mention that both were given him in the Ruidean doorway. -------------------- | ||
Foxhead |
Posted:
Aug 14 2004, 07:00 PM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 30 Member No.: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 ![]() |
"Simple solution often is the wrong
one" Anonymous "The most unbelievable things often bear a lot of truth in them" Can't remember who said that. These two quotes are guidelines for all of my theories and writings. NOTE: If anyone was curious, Tak-taal is better, by barely a scratch -------------------- Freak, an' damn proud of
it! |
Aleshandre |
Posted:
Aug 17 2004, 03:44 PM
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 219 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Those are great for some applications, but when you
are talking about logic, which is absolutely necessary for a stable
theory, Occum's statement should be applied; shave away unnecessary
constructs to find the truth. -------------------- |
Foxhead |
Posted:
Aug 17 2004, 09:45 PM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 30 Member No.: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 ![]() |
That's your wiew. BTW, there is one thing bugging me, and I'd like to hear your oppinions and theories. I wonder, how come Mat didn't learn anything but perfect horseriding and old tongue speaking from those old memmories of his? I recon, that's because he, since his old man sels them, had a lot of contact with horses, and since he is of an old blood, and a strong one at that, that those two things just stuck on him... Oh, I orgat about proper greetings, insults and such... but it is an obvious ting to learn off shore -------------------- Freak, an' damn proud of
it! |
Zinuk |
Posted:
Aug 18 2004, 12:05 AM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 64 Member No.: 166 Joined: 21-June 04 ![]() |
You seem to have forgotten that he also became an
outstanding general thanks to all the memories of past battles he has in
his head. He also knows of the Gholam, which is *very* restricted
knowledge. In fact, the past memories he gets are those of soldiers, so he gets the most benefits from it as he knew next to nothing to war before that. I should say that everything else in the memories is common knowledge (things he already knows), so isn't of any use to him. This post has been edited by Zinuk on Aug 18 2004, 12:08 AM |
Foxhead |
Posted:
Aug 18 2004, 10:02 PM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 30 Member No.: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 ![]() |
I haven't forgotten, but, rather than just soldiers,
I bellive the memmories belonged to the high-ranking officers and
generals... It just went missing in the typing. And the knowledge of
Gholam came from Briggite, not the memories. But, that still doesn't answer my question: How come he didn't learn anything else? For instance, swordfight? Whatever anyone can tell you, sword is the most common weapon, and therfore, in at least 50% of those memmories he should have known how to fight with it, but there is not even the slightest indication that Mat knows more than one end from the other... And it is war based knowledge that he would benefit, at least somewhat, from -------------------- Freak, an' damn proud of
it! |
Zinuk |
Posted:
Aug 18 2004, 10:59 PM
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![]() Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 64 Member No.: 166 Joined: 21-June 04 ![]() |
I had forgotten that one. Anyway, this could have been the kind of knowledge the memories would give him. I think the important point about the memories is that they only manifest when they are needed; before he needs somethings, he doesn't even know he knows it. Perhaps the memories gave him increased swordfight knowledge, but he wouldn't even know before handling a sword in a fight, and even then he could not notice. In fact, he would certainly notice the additional knowledge if he though he didn't know how to do something and then be able to do it, but for something he already knew how to do (like fighting with a weapon), he could not notice. | ||
Entropic_existence |
Posted:
Aug 19 2004, 04:46 AM
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 188 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Perhaps he does know how to use a sword from the
memories, however since he hasn't felt the need or desire to pick up a
sword, because he doesn't like them, we don't see that knowledge come
through. So yea he became a perfect horsemen, knows the Old Tongue (and incidentally tends to change accents and idioms randomly), knows more about warfare and battle than any of the Great Captains alive....combined because he literally has hundreds of soldiers, lords, and generals memories in his head, assorted court customs from nations all over a thousand years dead and lots of other tidbits that we see now and then. What else do you expect him to dig out of his skull? Like Zinuk said usually something triggers the memories so we aren;t going to see alot of random type things just oop out of nowhere. Even with the warfare stuff he is sually looking at maps or terrain, or thinking about soldiering and such before the memories start to kick in. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
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