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> What's the deal with Verin Mathwin?
Orclord
Posted: May 10 2004, 10:02 PM
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I have just about finished the series thus far. I am confused about Verin. Dedicated to the Dragon? Insane? A darkfriend? A forsaken? I can't figure it out, can I look forward to an answer, does anyone have any thoughts?
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drothgery
Posted: May 10 2004, 10:31 PM
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Verin is almost certainly a modern Aes Sedai, and not Black Ajah. The section of the prologue of The Path of Daggers from her point of view makes it extremely likely that she's bound by the Three Oaths (not Black Ajah or a Forsaken). The section in Far Madding from her point of view in Winter's Heart makes it pretty clear that she's been around since before the Forsaken were free.

It's possible, but unlikely, that she could be a Darkfriend but not part of the Black Ajah structure. However, her actions seem inconsistent with this.


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Orclord
Posted: May 10 2004, 11:07 PM
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Yeah, but there were a few instances.

A comment on needing to make sure Rand survived until he was intended to die.

The use of quasi-compulsion on the captured sisters.

Her planning on poisoning Cadsuane.

Her failing to give important information to Egwene on T'A'R and the Ter'Angreal.

Moiraine's warning about Verin.

The strange way she talks to herself.



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drothgery
Posted: May 11 2004, 12:03 AM
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Worth noting -
1) It's generally believed that Rand is prophecied to die in the Last Battle.

2) Consider that as a direct result of Kompulsion, Elza (a Darkfriend) led a circle that killed one of the Forsaken. Hardly a move you'd expect of someone playing for Team Shadow.

3) Note that Verin knows less about what Cadsuane is up to than the reader does; she wouldn't be the first to incorrectly believe Cadsuane is Black.

4) Egwene was an Accepted.

5) Moiraine's paranoid.

6) Browns are weird.


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Zarozynia
Posted: May 11 2004, 06:25 AM
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I dont think that Verin is black, I think that she is just one of the Aes Sedai who only follow tower rules to the degree that they absolutely have to, Cadsuane being another very good example. I often affectionately refer to them as the rogue Aes Sedai, although that is not precisely the right term.

The only instance that has truly made me think that she might have been black was the Egwene one, but otherwise, her intentions seem to be too wholly in Rand's favor for her to be black.


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Axel
Posted: May 11 2004, 10:43 PM
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Verin? She's a heartless manipulative ***** who's out for a goal and intends to do whatever the hell she needs to to accomplish it. The fact that she's on team light is the only thing that leads me to belive that... they stand a chance.


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MagusRogue
Posted: May 12 2004, 01:00 AM
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Verin is Verin. She's out to see the Final Battle happen, and at any cost. Whether that means using dark ways to get it is no bother to her. Perhaps that's why Moraine warned of Verin. She knew just how far the strange little Aes Sedai would go.


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Aleshandre
Posted: May 12 2004, 09:11 PM
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My take on Verin:

Verin is most certainly a died in the wool Brown. There is much evidence that proves that she is certainly not a darkfreind of any calibre. She has gone out of her way to see to it that Rand is protected from those that he would least expect of needing protection from. She has done the same with Mat and Perrin as well, but her focus is clearly Rand. She revealed to the only people that she knew were seeking to let the DR do as he must that she figured out that he was the Dragon. While the characters became suspicious, we on the other hand have seen much of Verin's motivation. Verin was going to poison Cadsuane until Cadsuane made it clear that she intended to have Rand make it to TG. Cadsuane's statement during that scene shows that her revealing that information was in fact Rand's Ta'veren pull on Cadsuane to keep her alive, so that she could help him. I suspect that Verin is one of the few Aes Sedai that Tamra trusted with the secret of Gitara's Fortelling of Rand's birth. As to Moiraine's distrust of her - Moiraine had seen several Aes Sedai and other people that she trusted killed by or revealed to be Black Ajah. She clearly felt that she couldn't afford to trust any of them, which is why she said, "Trust no Aes Sedai who wears the shawl on the day I die." She wasn't specific about Verin any more than she was specific about Cadsuane.


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Kathax Mosail Rishaem
Posted: Jun 7 2004, 08:54 PM
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my opinion of verin: she's probably one of the smartest people running around in randland, and knows a hell of a lot more about what's going on and what's coming than anyone else. unfortunately, she is like all aes sedai, and thinks that she knows best, so she's doing what she believes needs to be done to accomplish the task at hand, aka the last battle. i don't believe she's black ajah, but is mostly definitely willing to do whatever it takes to ensure that rand learns the things that he needs to and accomplishes the tasks that need doing in order to acheive victory in tarmon'gaidon.


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Rabid Bunny
Posted: Jun 9 2004, 08:34 AM
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Verin: she's smart, commited to the light and can't be trusted when she's not in Rand's sight (or for that matter when we aren't reading about her!).

Let's face it she knows exactly what she's doing, her Brown vagueness is just a cover.
She believes she knows exactly what is going to happen leading up to the Final Battle. To this end she allows Rand and the other boys enough freedom to allow themselves to reach Tarmon Gai'don. But she's always showing up when they need her, coincidence - NOT ON YOUR NELLY.

She has her super-effective Compulsion weave that she can even use somewhat easily on weakened Aes Sedai, now is it any suprise that Allana(?) shows up in her company and bonds Rand. Now Allana isn't exactly the most stable of AS is she? How hard would it be for Verin to slip a Compulsion onto her to get her to bond Rand? She's Green Ajah after all and everyone knows that they practically bond any male with a pulse. So Verin gets a very handy link to Rand without anybody connecting it to her.

Now when Cadsuane arrives Verin is just a wee bit worried that Caddie's going to ruin everything and is prepared to poison her, until she realises that for the moment Cadsuane and her are after the same thing. I expect the poison to come out later on.

Do I have a legitimate paranoid concern or am I reading too much into it?

Don't Trust Verin, she's like a female psychological equivalent to Galad - she's going to everything she can for the good of the Light and damn the consequences. Because she can justify it, the same way as all AS, she can get away with almost murder. I can't find the Cadsuane Poison passage but does it actually state that the poison would be lethal? Or would it merely be enough to weaken Cadsuane to the point of doing the freaky Compulsion thing on her


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 9 2004, 02:42 PM
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It was accually in a previous passage, where she obtained the herbs from Amys. Amys cautioned her that a small amount would be enough to be put to sleep, but too much would kill.


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Rabid Bunny
Posted: Jun 10 2004, 07:07 AM
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Oh. Yeah - rings a bell.

She still might just be trying to Compulsion Cadsuane though.

All things said and done Verin is one of the few Aes Sedai characters that I like, no, the only Aes Sedai that I like. I don't trust her but I do like her [maybe I like her because I don't trust her].


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 12 2004, 04:25 PM
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Even if she was planning on using compulsion on Cadsuane, she apparently decided not to. She did have a chance to use the drops on Cad and put them away. A clear indication that whatever her plans, Cad proved herself to be reliable in Verin's mind.


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Fel'Dalas
Posted: Jul 5 2004, 09:36 AM
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This is all very plausable, but how does verin know when to show up near each of the three Ta'veren when she will be needed, or even where they'll be for that matter? huh.gif


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Niveus
Posted: Jul 5 2004, 11:08 PM
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QUOTE (Fel'Dalas @ Jul 5 2004, 07:36 AM)
This is all very plausable, but how does verin know when to show up near each of the threewhen she will be needed, or even where they'll be for that matter? huh.gif

Ta'veren they bend the pattern around them and as i am pretty sure the dark one wants to destroy the pattern the pattern insures its champions are around till the bitter end


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Fel'Dalas
Posted: Jul 6 2004, 05:27 AM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE (Fel'Dalas @ Jul 5 2004, 07:36 AM)
This is all very plausable, but how does verin know when to show up near each of the threewhen she will be needed, or even where they'll be for that matter? 



Ta'veren they bend the pattern around them and as i am pretty sure the dark one wants to destroy the pattern the pattern insures its champions are around till the bitter end


I realize this, but what I'm saying is that she isn't omnipotent so how can she choose in advance where to be at any given time to be able to help these three when they need her most. Your giving her way to much credit. blink.gif


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Total slaughter, total slaughter.
I won't leave a single soul alive.
La-dee-da-dee-dide, genocide.
La-dee-da-dee-dud, an ocean of blood.
Let's begin the killing time...
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Niveus
Posted: Jul 6 2004, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE (Fel'Dalas @ Jul 6 2004, 03:27 AM)
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE (Fel'Dalas @ Jul 5 2004, 07:36 AM)
This is all very plausable, but how does verin know when to show up near each of the threewhen she will be needed, or even where they'll be for that matter?  



Ta'veren they bend the pattern around them and as i am pretty sure the dark one wants to destroy the pattern the pattern insures its champions are around till the bitter end


I realize this, but what I'm saying is that she isn't omnipotent so how can she choose in advance where to be at any given time to be able to help these three when they need her most. Your giving her way to much credit. blink.gif

picture the world as a drum skin and Ta'veren as a weight in the middle when you place a marble on the edge the marble goes to the center did the marble decide to go to the center or did the drum skin make it?


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Fel'Dalas
Posted: Jul 6 2004, 06:23 PM
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You seem to be missing my point. Everyone seems to seeing Verin as someone outside the patern who can see what it will be in the end and weaves her own thread through it based on the changes she wishes to make. dry.gif


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Total slaughter, total slaughter.
I won't leave a single soul alive.
La-dee-da-dee-dide, genocide.
La-dee-da-dee-dud, an ocean of blood.
Let's begin the killing time...
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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 9 2004, 03:07 PM
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I don't see Verin that way at all. I see her as another thread (albeit a very intelligent thread). I have to agree that Verin isn't "choosing" to be at exactly the right place at the right time, rather the pull of the pattern shifts her to where she is needed and being as intelligent as she is, she recognized exactly where she needs to be and does exactly what needs to be done. Basically the philosophy is that the less resistance a particular thread makes, the easier it is for that thread to be woven into the pattern. I believe that Verin understands enough of the pattern to be able to bend exactly where she needs to, to make for easier work on the part of the pattern, thus she gets placed in the right spot at the right time.


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