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> Ashandarei, about this spear and Mat
Foxhead
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 04:25 PM
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By consulting various old tongue dictionaries, I've come to the conclusion that it comes from
ph34r.gif
asha (meaning to guard)-an (meaning of/belonging to)-darei (meaning spear)
so the logical conclusion is that Ashandarei means: Spear of Guardian, or Guardian's spear.
Now, we all know of Mat's extensive knowlige of old tongue, and his familiarity of that weapon. We also know that if anyone should have been named the guardian it would be Mat. (I know that most would argue that Perrin should be guardian, but come on. He is to atached to his bloody wife to notice anything else, and that is certainly not guardian attitude)

I'll stop here, but I expect some help with this, since I don't really know what to make out of it....


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 07:35 PM
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Yes, asha'an darei means "spear of the guardian". It makes sense since he is to "give up half of the light of the world to save the world". A guardian is one who is willing to sacrifice anything for the sake of whatever he is guarding, regardless of his own desires. In other words, a guardian should be willing to give up the thing most precious to himself/herself to protect that which is being guarded.


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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 10:23 PM
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My thougt exactly!!

Now, I'll insert here one of my theories (without actually giving any proff to it) here, so I can extend it to Ashandarei (or asha'an darei).

My theory is that, although theoreticaly the horn will work for anyone that first sounds it, the pattern has a special soul made to be hornsounder, that recycles more oftenly then any other hero's soul, so it is always ready when the pattern needs for horn to be sounded. I belive that pattern 'discouraged' everyone that could have blown the horn, until Mat, not knowing that the horn will bind him as it's sounder, blows it. In a base, I belive Mat was born to be the hornsounder, and when the foxes 'mended' the hole in Mat's memories, he actually got glimpses of his past lives, or acctually, glimpses of lives of past potential hornsounder souls. Now to return to Ashandarei, I belive it is actually the weapon of hornsounder. Hornsounder's soul should be protector-alike, because his job is to protect the horn, and use it to protect the world...


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 11:28 PM
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Hmm, I can see that; Diynden Ma'Purvane is the guardian of the Horn as well as its sounder.


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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 19 2004, 02:18 AM
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What can I say, biggrin.gif Great minds think alike cool.gif

Any more thought about it all?


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 20 2004, 12:19 AM
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I like the theory, in fact I've always believed Matt is likely a Hero of the Horn as is Perrin. Now...I assume you are using Ashandarei as a sort of title for Matt, as well as the weapon name...because we do know it is a weapon that at one time (Pre War of the Hundred Years anyway) was probably semi-common at the least, Birgitte recognizes it after all.


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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 20 2004, 12:30 AM
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In my opinion, Ashandarei is unique, and the only reason that Brigite recognized it is becose she is a hero of the horn, and knows that. The reason she doesn't mention anything elso to Mat about it is because she recognized it as Hornsounder's regular weapon...
And, I don't belive Perrin is a hero of the horn, what we saw that made you think he is was Lanfear's ilusion. You know that someone as skilled as Lanfear in T.A.R could make you see anything she wants. And, really, what heroic deed had perrin did at all, that could identyfie him as one bound to the horn. The only thing he really do is mop around like a rug. For me, he is just an annoying wolfbrother who tries to act as like mr fine and civilized. The only thing that he ever did that was worth my attentio was at Dumai's well, and at the interogation of the captured Shaido in Cot.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 11:09 PM
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Perrin willing to sacrifice himself to the Whitecloaks in order to save the Two Rivers and ullying his name by allowing him to be executed as a Darkfriend is pretty heroic I think. In fact the entire Perrin returning to the Two Rivers sequences is one of my favourites. Artur Hawkwing refers to Matt as Hornsounder (or was it Trumpeter...anyway) while calling Perrin Bannerman (note capitlization and the fact that Hurin was there also) As for the Ashandarei being unique....I just can't. Why would one person have one weapon that no one else does? Lan comments on it being power-wrought and I can't buy Birgitte's recognition of the weapon as it being based solely on Matt always using this weapon throughout time.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 11:31 PM
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I can buy that specific Ashandarei being unique, but I don't think that it is a completely unique style of weapon. It was probably fairly common at one point in history.


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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 01:08 AM
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I never said anything about the style of the weapon, I said ashandarei was uniqe not that the Glaives were uniqe. They probbably were pretty common...


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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 01:21 AM
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And, for Perrin willing to sacrifie himself, that was undoubtfully brave, but not heroic, for one somple reason that it was also extremly stupid. And for Trumpeter and Bannerman with cappitals, those are military ranks, and, as much as I know, they (the ranks) are suposed to be written with capitals. Back to Perrin, The events in two river are one of my favourites as well, but Perrin brought wictory simply by being a symbol, something in wich people can belive in, everything else is a result of Manetheneren blood. And before you say anything more, him being Ta'veren, is the only reason he became that symboll.
Note, I bellive that everything that happened to either one of the tree, since they left the Two rivers, is a Ta'veren-work.
And, I never said that Mat is a hero of the horn, I bellive he is tied to the horn in a completly different way, and his soul (will)(have) never spend/ds/nt any time in T.A.R

This post has been edited by Foxhead on Jul 22 2004, 01:24 AM


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 01:56 AM
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A person is either bound to the Horn or they are not. They are a Hero of the Horn or they are not. While it is possible that Mat wasn't a Hero of the Horn, the moment that he sounded it, he became a Hero of the Horn. I believe that all of the major Ta'veren of the Ages become Heroes of the Horn. That way, when ever they are spun out, the Pattern has the Ta'veren that it needs.


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Foxhead
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 02:38 AM
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Give me a proof that you can be bound to the horn only if you are a hero!
You can't because there is not any...
I, in my theorie, clearly state that it is my firm belif that Mat is not a hero of the Horn, but a hero of the pattern nevertheless. As I said, it is my firm bellif that Mat is a soul of a hornsounder, who is fated to never rest in the world of dreams, but to allways be born anew, so he could allwys sand ready to sound the horn., and call for the heroes of the horn. He is bound by an entirely different bond to the Horn. Whille the HoH, are bound to, after every death, wait in the T.A.R until they could be reborn again, or a horn is sounded, the Hornsounder's soul never quite leaves this world, but rather, imidiatelly is reborn, because his bond with the horn is two way - He is born to be there to protect the horn, and stand ready to sound it, and the horn, slowly thru his life increes his luck.
Note: I don't bellive that the dagger, had triggered his extreme luck. If you racall, Mat's luck had gone wild after they had wisited the EotW, not when he got the dagger, not when Aes Sedai healed him, and not after he had sounded the horn. I bellive that the fact that he had been presant when the horn was 'found', that the link between his soul and the horn had suddenely strenghtened, and that the only reason that the link was somewhat weak since the breaking was because the saidin 'protected' the horn, and therefore presented a great obstacle, but even with that barier, I bellive that the hornsounder (or better to say: 'poential hornsounder') was always luckier then normal man.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 03:14 AM
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I'll let Aleshandre find quotes to back up his claim, because he's far better at it than I am smile.gif

The Ashandarei is a bit shorter than a Glaive I believe be a few feet making it a quicker weapon. I think Matt's Ashandarei is special but that the Ashandarei is a weapon type, not refering to one particular weapon. There is no way to prove/dissprove this of course, since it would require an answer directly from RJ....perhaps when he starts answering those questions of the week.

Like Aleshandre I think all major Ta'veren are Heroes of the Horn, they both essentially serve the same purpose. All Heroes of the Horn are likely ta'veren to some extent. Heroes of the Horn are the souls bound to the Pattern, period. I don't believe you can be bound to the Pattern in any way without being a Hero of the Horn. This is pretty much implied when Artur Hawkwing is giving his little speech after Matt sounds the Horn.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 03:25 AM
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On what basis do you claim that Mat is a hero of the pattern, but not a hero of the horn? What other heroes are reborn age after age? The only people who are reffered to as being spun out in the pattern repeatedly are the Heroes of the Horn. All other people are born, live and die once. I have no need to cite references to my view, because it uses the construct that RJ devised for the series. All other constructs that have been devised by fans are simply constructs devised by fans to explain things that they don't fully understand. Occam's razor says that we need to cut away unnecessary constructs to find the truth (or in this case the official version). Even the Dragon was a Hero of the Horn, or he would not have been recognized by the other Heroes of the Horn when they were called forth. Mat has been spun out numerous times, marking him as a Hero of the Horn.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 03:29 AM
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QUOTE
And, I don't belive Perrin is a hero of the horn, what we saw that made you think he is was Lanfear's ilusion. You know that someone as skilled as Lanfear in T.A.R could make you see anything she wants.


And for the sake of completeness that is not why I believe Perrin is a Hero of the Horn.

QUOTE
And for Trumpeter and Bannerman with cappitals, those are military ranks, and, as much as I know, they (the ranks) are suposed to be written with capitals.


Possibly the case, but we see them non capitalized quite frequently. When you are using it capitlized and addressing someone with it it turns it into more of a title, a formal address, rather than simply picking out some people and giving them a military rank.

The soul of Lews Therin/Rand al'Thor is a Hero of the Horn, it is bound to the Wheel after all, we also know that Rand needs Matt and Perrin in order to succeed, the triumvarate philosophy and all that. Matt and Perrin are incredibly strong Ta'veren, linked to The Dragon, and have all done pretty incredible things within the last several years of their lives by anybodies standards. If Matt and Perrin aren't Heroes of the Horn now...their deeds in the 3rd Age will likely make them so.

On a side note notice that many of the Heroes of the Horn were also Hunters for the Horn during at least one of their lives....


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 06:30 AM
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QUOTE
And, for Perrin willing to sacrifie himself, that was undoubtfully brave, but not heroic, for one somple reason that it was also extremly stupid.


Since when has the willful sacrifice of one self for the good of the many been stupid. If it is stupid, then every hero in the history of the world has been stupid.

QUOTE
he·ro n. pl. he·roes

  1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
  2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
  3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.
  4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.
  5. Chiefly New York City. See submarine. See Regional Note at submarine.


This is taken from a dictionary. I'd have to say that Perrin has proven himself heroic time and time again. The fact that he loves his wife makes him no less of a hero. Rand killed a warder with his bare hands and wounded another so badly with the first one's sword that he died from being Healed. He did this while shielded and so quickly that he did it before he could be wrapped in air. He did it just because he saw Min. Yet I don't see you arguing that Rand isn't a hero. He is willing to give his life at Tarmon Gaidon. Nay, he feels that he knows for a fact that he will die there, yet he marches a steady march to it without searching for a way out. How is he that different from Perrin in his willingness to die for the many.

I just had to defend the character in the books that identify best with. Get married Foxhead, and then tell me what you wouldn't do for your wife's safety. His being married doesn't preclude him from being a hero.


I dont' buy that the ashandarei is unique. Mat's particular one is of course, but so is every weapon to some degree. Mat's weapon is power-wrought as well.

I believe that the Horn of Valere is tied in with the Creator. Throughout time, the Creator has had a champion that has been born and has either been a champion for good or at times the Dark One has twisted him to his own side. That is what he has tried to do with Rand this time around because it is a greater victory to convert the Champion of Good rather than simply kill him.

Now I'm not certain that the Horn is the only reason that people are reborn, but I could see that. If that is true then the Horn has been around for Time without end. We do know that even to the people in the Age of Legends it was a mystery, some bit of mythology passed down from people of old. Who knows truly how long this artifact has been around. The tricky thing about eternity is that it goes both ways. It is easier to imagine "never ends" than "never begins." Our linear brains just have a tough time wrapping around it.

Anyway, late, rambling, going to bed now.


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Zarozynia
Posted: Jul 23 2004, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre @ Jul 22 2004, 01:25 AM)
On what basis do you claim that Mat is a hero of the pattern, but not a hero of the horn? What other heroes are reborn age after age? The only people who are reffered to as being spun out in the pattern repeatedly are the Heroes of the Horn. All other people are born, live and die once. I have no need to cite references to my view, because it uses the construct that RJ devised for the series. All other constructs that have been devised by fans are simply constructs devised by fans to explain things that they don't fully understand. Occam's razor says that we need to cut away unnecessary constructs to find the truth (or in this case the official version). Even the Dragon was a Hero of the Horn, or he would not have been recognized by the other Heroes of the Horn when they were called forth. Mat has been spun out numerous times, marking him as a Hero of the Horn.

I have to be a bit picky here, although I do agree with you. biggrin.gif

The Dragon is a hero of the Pattern and not a hero of the horn. I know that Entropic seems to agree that he is a hero of the horn, but what do we have to back this up? When the horn is sounded a certain group of heroes appears, we know that Artur Hawking is one, Bridgette Silverbow another...but wouldn't, if he were a hero of the horn, Lews Therin be one of them?

Of course not, because he is bound to the fight with the dark one and that supercedes anything that involves the horn. The horn is tied to the dragon, not the other way around.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 23 2004, 09:49 PM
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Well, we know from Artur Hawkwings quotes that the Heroes follow Lews Therin (at least his soul), although when they have been spun out sometimes they have fought against one another (like perhaps when Lews Therin's soul has possibly swung to serve the Shadow rather than the Light). Lews Therin wasn't with the souls called by the Horn because he had already been spun out into the Pattern. Any Heroes living regular lives when the Horn is sounded do not get called....they must be in the World of Dreams at the time.

Personally I stand by my belief that you can't be bound to the Pattern and not bound to the Horn at least in some way. Unless there is some Shadow alternative (like Ishmael claims to be reborn time and time again to oppose Lews Therin)


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 24 2004, 02:00 AM
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After the Horn is sounded, Artur Hawkwing greeted Rand as Lews Therin, then asked "Do you have the Banner? We answer to the Horn, but we must follow whoever has the Banner." You can check that for yourself. So the HotH don't follow the soul of LTT, but the Dragon Banner. The fact that they recognized LTTs soul shows that they know Lews Therin and how would they know him if he were not a Hero of the Horn, since they are not to associate with any save the other HotH? The difference between a Hero of the Horn and everyone else is that Heroes of the Horn are reborn again and again, spun out as the Wheel needs them. We know that Lews Therin is spun out over and over again as the pattern needs him, therefore, he is a Hero of the Horn.


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