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> The Ages, how does it go again?
Zinuk
Posted: Jul 17 2004, 11:05 AM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre)
By this time, Ogier would be seen as "monsters" or giants and hunted and killed, leaving the Ogier no choice but to become agressive, leading directly to their ultimate total destruction by the end of the 6th Age.

If all Ogier are killed, how do they appear again in the Age of Discovery? I don't think they are contructs, so they would have to survive through all the ages.

And I still think that the DO should play a greater role.

That being said, I really like your theory about the 4th Age. As for the 5th Age, it seems quite strange that, contrary to what happened during the 3rd Age, channelers are not powerful enough to have a proeminent role and survive through the Age; after all, the War of Power was perhaps the worse war of all time. Perhaps channelers were hunted down at the end of 4th Age (by somebody hating them, a little like Arhtur Hawking), leading to their disparition. Just an idea.
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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 17 2004, 11:06 AM
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Oops! Double post

This post has been edited by Zinuk on Jul 17 2004, 11:09 AM
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 17 2004, 08:21 PM
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I think in several comments made in interviews, and answering readers questions, that the time period we live in now corressponds at least to the 7th Age. Remeber when Egwene is in Tel'Aran'Rhiod in Book 4, in the Panarch's Palace and she see's what is obviously the Mercedes logo from a car, and the bones. She definitly says that they feel even older than the artifacts there from the Age of Legends. We also know the Portal Stones apparently pre-date the Age of Legends by at least an Age. Definitly hard to nail down. I also think with every turning of the Wheel it will be slightly different.


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Niveus
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (TwangCat @ Jul 16 2004, 10:48 AM)
since this is supposed to be earth at some point the power needs to disapear from the world.


Age of discovery = discovery of power
Age of ledgends = living happily with the power
3rd age = fighting back the dark one
4th age = discovery of technology and no new people are born with the ability to chanell (perhaps a side effect of locking out the dark one too completely)
5th age = a time of war using technology (perhaps this is modern times)
6th age = a time of peace with technology
7th age = a time of war so awsome that civilization is all but wiped out.


1st Age) "Age of Discovery" = re discovery of power pulling mankind out of the "Age of Destruction". The Ogier to return and rebuild civilization

2nd Age)"Age of Legends" = New age of wonder with the one power the Aelfinn and Eelfinn return and offer guidance that last till the bore

3rd Age “Age of Illusions"= fighting back the dark one and ending with the resealing of the dark one

4th Age "Age of Truth" = the seal against the dark one is made permanent but at a high cost. Using all of Saidar and Saidin to make a giant "well" on top of the "bore" completely mends it but doing so ends the ability to use the one power. Fearing a future "bore" the last remaining aes sedai set out to destroy all mention of the one power the dark one. The only way to guaranteeing this is to destroy every city on the planet as a result man reverts to nomadic tribes. And the Ogier, Aelfinn and Eelfinnall vow not to interact with man unless it was absolutely necessary and leave going to the remotest parts of the world

5th age "The Age of Knowledge" = man creates technology that returns civilization to man and brings an end to the nomadic way of life and continue to advance until the Age of Wonder.

6th age) "Age of Wonder" = Technology so impressive it rivals the age of legends in splendor. The ogier and other mythical races are considered children stories given no more credence then the sasquatch is.

7th Age)"Age of Destruction" man turns his own technology on himself virtually wiping out the entire race and resetting the wheel

This post has been edited by Niveus on Jul 18 2004, 02:44 AM


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 06:09 AM
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Personally I think the Ogier come to the world from one of the other worlds during some age. Likely the 1st or 2nd and make themselves homes here on this version of reality. Much as the Grolm and other Seanchan exotics were all brought from mirror worlds to fight the shadowspawn and eradicate them from the Seanchan continent.


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TwangCat
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 06:59 AM
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good point about the ogier coming from another world.

Anyways I've just been going through the Great Hunt of the Horn book recently (audio book so I can't site a reference) but Moraine refers to the current part of the 3rd age as "a time in which illusions will be revealed" or something like that and it struck me as another point for calling this the Age of Illusions. Knowing Robert Jordan as well as we all do I suspect that speculation on her part was not put in by chance.

Edit:
Age of Illusions also makes sense in the long term because like the Age of ledgends what they acomplished with the power will not seem real to the future ages.

This post has been edited by TwangCat on Jul 18 2004, 07:01 AM
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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (Niveus)
4th Age "Age of Truth" = the seal against the dark one is made permanent but at a high cost. Using all of Saidar and Saidin to make a giant "well" on top of the "bore" completely mends it but doing so ends the ability to use the one power. Fearing a future "bore" the last remaining aes sedai set out to destroy all mention of the one power the dark one. The only way to guaranteeing this is to destroy every city on the planet as a result man reverts to nomadic tribes. And the Ogier, Aelfinn and Eelfinnall vow not to interact with man unless it was absolutely necessary and leave going to the remotest parts of the world

I think the end of the 3rd Age is too soon for the Power to disappear. We have some hint of this in one of Nicola's foretellings:

QUOTE (Book 6 LoC @ Chap 14, p 353 (paperback))
"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

(See the FAQ here for an explanation of this)

Asha'man could hardly balance Aes Sedai if the Power is gone, if you see what I mean.

QUOTE (Entropic_existence)
Personally I think the Ogier come to the world from one of the other worlds during some age. Likely the 1st or 2nd and make themselves homes here on this version of reality. Much as the Grolm and other Seanchan exotics were all brought from mirror worlds to fight the shadowspawn and eradicate them from the Seanchan continent.


That's a possibility. The question is then when do they come in? (if they are eradicated, that is) They can only come from an Age where travelling with the Power to other worlds is common place and easy (invention of Stone Portals).
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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 18 2004, 11:35 PM
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If you read the brief history that I wrote of the Age of Discovery, you will see how I believe the Portal Stones came to be. I heard from someone that the big white book of bad art said that the Ogier came from another world, but never said what world or how, but once the Portal Stones are made, it would be easy to get them here.

It would also be possible that Channelers destroyed the Portal Stones, except for one, which they could use to leave the world, leaving it without any who could channel (except young wilders, who would eventually discover the truth and lead the world back into its natural cycle).


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 02:27 PM
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I think we have a good scenario on how the Power and Ogier disappeared and then reappeared. At one Age (the problem is: which one?), all channelers and Ogier travelled to another world thanks to Portal Stones and destroyed them so that no one could use them again. Then, when the Power is discovered again during AoD, Portal Stones are also discovered and Ogier are found on the world they went to (all channelers died long ago; only Ogier remain).

I was rereading Chap 11 of Book 4, The Shadow Rising, an it is clear that the skeletons in the Tanchico Palace are those of prehistoric beasts like saber-tooth tigers and mammoths. So there needs to be a prehistoric Age with stone-age technology and prehistoric beast; probably, it would be Age 7. Maybe after a cataclym of some sort.

However, there is a detail that disturbs me; it seems that the Mercedes symbol (made of plastic, as it seems) is older than the bones of the prehistoric beasts:

QUOTE (TSR @ Chap 11, p 209)
A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity.

That seems a little bit funny to me. Any ideas on how this could predate the prehistoric beasts?

This post has been edited by Zinuk on Jul 21 2004, 02:28 PM
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Niveus
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE (TSR @ Chap 11, p 209)
A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity.


That seems a little bit funny to me. Any ideas on how this could predate the prehistoric beasts?


the now classis Rj opening to the Wot novels has always at least for me explained how this would be possible.

I have always took this to mean that even though it is a new cycle some things from the prevoius turning are still around and maybe even a few from the one before that one too.

the last complete cycle lets call it 1, would be the one immedialty before the one we are currently in

the as of yet incomplete cycle lets call it 2, the one we are currently in

so lets say that the ancient bones are from cycle 1 and far out date anything from cycle 2 but a few things from an even earlier cycle have survived aswell lets call this cycle 0.

A three-pointed star inside a circle. cycle 0

Ancient bones. cycle 1

Seals to the dark ones prison. cycle 2

Does this make sense or am I using way to much metaphysics?

This post has been edited by Niveus on Jul 21 2004, 04:21 PM


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 04:49 PM
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It could be possible. Although it would make this peace of plastic very very old and make it a near miracle that it has survived so long when everything else has disappeared.
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Aleshandre
Posted: Jul 21 2004, 07:31 PM
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Instead of looking at the full cycles, if we look at the Ages, we can get a better image and one that I think is more consistent.

If we look at the way that things go; memory fades to legend, legend fades to myth and myth is long forgotten (forgotten 3 ages earlier) when the Age that brought it comes again.

Instead of naming the ages and numbering them with the common numbering, I'm ging to number them based on what part of the cycle it exists in compared to the others.

0 - current Age.
-1 - Age of Memory
-2 - Age of Legend
-3 - Age of Myth
+1 - current age becomes memory
+2 - becomes legend
+3 becomes myth

In age 0, Artifacts from age -1 are rare, but known of widely. Artifacts from age -2 are more rare, but because they are part of legend, they are known by at least scholars and some others who have been exposed to them. Artifacts from age -3 are nearly unheard of and usually assumed to be from age -2, rather than age -3.

If we assume that In reality, the Age of Legends is actually the First Age, making the AoD the 7th Age, we have an additional age that we can use for the Age of Memory (age -1 for the 3rd Age). Since Mosk and Merik (Moscow and America) hurled spears of fire across the sky in the Age of Myths, that puts us at 3rd Age -3 or the age of myths and in Age 7 for the Age of Discovery. It also puts the Stone Age right smack dab in the beginning of the 2nd Age. That makes only 3 Ages to account for between the 3rd Age and the 7th Age.

To recap:

3rd Age (Age of Illusions) is age 0 by my calender
Stone Age to Imperial Era becomes age -1
Age of Legends becomes age -2
Age of Discovery becomes age -3
Leaving Age +1 (the fourth Age) age +2 (5th Age) and age +3 (6th Age).

This especially makes sense since from a religious view, there was an age of perfect harmony before the fall of Adam and Eve, followed by amassive world changing event (the flood) and then a nomadic era followed by empires rising from the centers of civilization, then after the fall of empires, there was the Dark Ages, followed by enlightenment and industrial and scientific advancement for 3 distinct eras followed by 1000 years of perfect harmony for a total of 7 distinct ages of the cycle.


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Axel
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 03:28 PM
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Hold it, you're placing an extra Age between AoL and AoI, yet we know that the AoI begins with the end of AoL. Why don't we try this:

1. Age of Discovery- we know
2. Age of Legends- we know
3. Age of Illussions- we know
4. Age of Rebirth- The wars that end the AoI tear apart the world as it was known. The nations that were are gone, new ones arise. The cycle continues, the people fight amongst themselves, the develop new technologies that allow them to kill more of each other at once. Finally another series of horrible wars again tears apart the world rearranging the map and wiping out memory of the Power.
5. Age of Enlightenment- The people again rebuild what they had, learning to do with machines what was once done with the Power. And again they war and again they slowly develop new technologies to again kill more of each other at once.
6. Age of Knowledge- A level of comfort unmatched in the Age of Legends comes. With his new technologies man borders on the edge of a final breakthrough. Civilization reaches the edge of a new level, and falls right over it. Everything falls apart.
7. Age of Stone- With the end of the Age of Knowledge civilization collapses. The scattered remnants of people are reduced to nomadic tribesman. The last of the old technologies are used beyond hope and civilization is sent back to the zero point.


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TwangCat
Posted: Jul 22 2004, 05:43 PM
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I think what you've got works Alex and as far as the discussion of where Ogier and Portal stones come from, they really could have come from a completely different cycle of the ages.
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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 23 2004, 12:08 AM
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One thing not to forget is that the timeline is cyclic, and, even though not all events happen the same way each time, the major events stay the same.

I don't think something as important as Ogier or Portal Stone would only come from the previous cycle, and then disappear for the other cycles; they are not just a minor variation on the same theme. They should get into play at each time the wheel turns, and so how they appear and then disappear is a very important part of the cycle.

And I think we now have a very coherent theory on how this would be possible. The only requirement for the Alternate world that would receive Ogier and channelers would be that it has steddings, as Ogier are naturally bound to them.
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TwangCat
Posted: Jul 23 2004, 08:35 AM
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Ogier weren't bound to the steadings before the breaking. It was only after they were forced to wander for years on end that they longing came.
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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 23 2004, 10:36 AM
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No: Ogier have always been bound to the steddings, and the Exile only made this bond stronger (if such a bond didn't exist before, Ogier would be like humans, able to live anywhere without problems). Before the Exile, the bond was just a lot weaker, so that Ogier could stay way longer out of a stedding without having any Longing-like effect.

So any world were Ogier are send would need to have steddings, or else all Ogier would eventualy die because of the Longing.
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Niveus
Posted: Jul 24 2004, 05:59 AM
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QUOTE (Zinuk @ Jul 22 2004, 05:08 PM)
One thing not to forget is that the timeline is cyclic, and, even though not all events happen the same way each time, the major events stay the same.

I don't think something as important as Ogier or Portal Stone would only come from the previous cycle, and then disappear for the other cycles; they are not just a minor variation on the same theme. They should get into play at each time the wheel turns, and so how they appear and then disappear is a very important part of the cycle.

And I think we now have a very coherent theory on how this would be possible. The only requirement for the Alternate world that would receive Ogier and channelers would be that it has steddings, as Ogier are naturally bound to them.

1st According to RJ the world pre breaking had no steddings and the ogier walked free bound to no land

2nd ogier currently cant be channlers due to the connection to the steddings (a save haven from the one power) but if they were once again freed from this, they could gain the one power


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Niveus
Posted: Jul 24 2004, 06:08 AM
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QUOTE (Zinuk @ Jul 23 2004, 03:36 AM)
No: Ogier have always been bound to the steddings, and the Exile only made this bond stronger (if such a bond didn't exist before, Ogier would be like humans, able to live anywhere without problems). Before the Exile, the bond was just a lot weaker, so that Ogier could stay way longer out of a stedding without having any Longing-like effect.

So any world were Ogier are send would need to have steddings, or else all Ogier would eventualy die because of the Longing.

no they werent when Elder Haman described the longing he called it a desire that became a need

I desire to see england I don't need to

therfore Im not tied to england


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 24 2004, 10:32 AM
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QUOTE (Niveus)
1st According to RJ the world pre breaking had no steddings and the ogier walked free bound to no land


No: in the BBoBA, RJ says explicitely that seddings existed in the AoL and that Ogier lived in them. At a time during the Breaking, Ogier lost the location of steddings and so went to look for them. How could they miss steddings if they never lived in them? Steddings didn't just appear after the Breaking; they always existed and Ogier have always lived in them.

QUOTE (Niveus)
2nd ogier currently cant be channlers due to the connection to the steddings (a save haven from the one power) but if they were once again freed from this, they could gain the one power


Maybe the natural bond between Ogier and stedding is the reason why they can't channel. We don't know. According to RJ (in one of his interview), asking why Ogier can't channel is just like asking why cats can't fly.

QUOTE (Niveus)
no they werent when Elder Haman described the longing he called it a desire that became a need

I desire to see england I don't need to

therfore Im not tied to england


Exactly. I could live all my life away from England without dying from horrible sickness.

But that's not what happened to Ogier: after spending many years away from steddings (the Exile), they all began to suffer from some sickness; if they weren't bound some way to steddings (even before the Breaking), how could this have happened?

The only way to explain this is that they have always been bound to steddings (even during AoL, although at this time, it was only a desire to go back to steddings, not a need; at this time, the bond was weak). After the Exile, the bond became extremely strong (the desire became a need), not allowing them to get away of steddings for more than merely a few years.

Anyway, to go back to the main topic of this thread, I think that Axel has the 7th, 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ages right, but I really feel that, during Age 4, 5 or 6, the Dark One should have a role. The Power should also be present and only disappear after, perhaps just before the Stone Age; Ogier and channelers would travel to another world (with steddings) and destroy all Portal Stones so that the Power is eradicated from the world, leaving it in a stone-age state due to the great war against the Dark One that ended the age, destroying everything.

As for the Age of Knowledge, I don't quite see how technology without the Power could be more advanced that with the Power. We must not forget that the Power was able to do many things technology couldn't even dream of (isntant healing of geneteic deseases, ...).
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