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> ~AoL Golems, Yes for you to Z
Llewin
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 06:22 PM
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just to toss a wrench in the works... Z, kiddo... goats arent predators smile.gif
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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 06:25 PM
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lol.

You are absolutely right, Llewin, blame it on the cold fever. wink.gif

I was just thinking about hearing somewhere that they used all predators for trollocs, but that is obviously wrong if they have herd beast feet. Which they definately do.

Scartch that, not all predators.

Unless they're crazy man-eating goats?!?


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Aleshandre
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 07:16 PM
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I have only two things to say about this;
1) The Wheel of Time is NOT D&D It never has been and never should be. If you want to do a WoT setting for the AoL, that's wonderful, but remember that there is a HUGE difference between the WoT and D&D. Creatures from D&D should rarely and with GREAT caution be used in the WoT world. The litterally thousands of creatures from D&D for the most part don't fit in a WoT setting, There are a rare few that do and that's fine, but certain things should be left out and balance has nothing to do with those.
2) If you want to use constructs in the D&D sense in the AoL, I suggest using D20 Future and creating various robots that are powered by the True Source. This would be more in keeping with the spirit of the WoT than having living creatures made from inanimate materials as with D&D style golem. Future has plenty of information on creating bioreplicants and biodroids as well as including various types of armor that could be used in their making.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the golem that have been written up are very creative. They just don't fit in the WoT setting.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 07:40 PM
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Ale, i'd have to agree on that point, actually.

I think that 'robot' constructs is much more accurate to the universe RJ created.

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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 07:51 PM
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Okay, I will try to be as nice about this as possible. I get the fact that not everybody that is on this board likes the idea of a cuellindar golem. Or apparently any kind of golem in the WoT universe. Its been said, on every thread that mentions them, there is no need to say so again. I'm not trying to be rude, BUT we all know that the WoT is not D&D and quite frankly, I am going to look at everybody submissions for my netbook as all having merit. Why? Because I'm heading up the project and these people are sending me submissions, and helping me. At this point, any continuing comments about how things shouldn't be in my netbook is NOT HELPING me.

That said, thank you for the suggesion to look in the d20 Future book. I agree that the golems, as we're calling them should be more "machine" or "robot" based - that's what I said, and in fact, that is what was also said today on this board. Maybe the write ups dont accurately reflect this YET and maybe it is the name golem that is getting to people. That's why we're discussing this on the board, I dont think that anybody has meant to infer that these creatures have souls or are anything like living, breathing beings. I'm sorry if there is some confusion ove this. It should end now.

On the other hand, to say out of hand that these creatures that we call "golems" from the D&D dont exist in the Age of Legends seems like maybe not quite so true. What are the Nym? They are constructs, they are listed in the books as being such. They cannot reproduce or there would still be little Nym running around; that they appear to be made out of plant matter and somehow imbued with life, and seemingly, a soul. Again I will state that I haven't read the Monster's Manual cover to cover as I play WoT not D&D, but they certainly seem to amount to that which you speak of.


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 09:08 PM
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When I was asking about constructs, I was talking specifically about constructs like nym, and any other ones we end up coming up with that have intelligence and such, you know? I think those fit in with the setting fine. Personally.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 09:31 PM
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the nym, according to RJ (check the various posts and interviews with him at dragonmount.com) created beings *with* souls. He confirms that their souls would have come from teh same pool used for ogier, humans, etc.

so i think they could very easily be considered a plant golem could they not?

*editing*
had some more to add smile.gif

Ok so the way i'm looking at the 'golem' problem is this... there are two possible ways that it could be done.

One, and this is the way we see the Nym being created, would be to use the one power to create ever-living plant matter, formed and shaped into whatever shape was desired by the creator, in the case of the Nym that would be a human-shape albeit much larger, and then somehow soul matter is drawn to this in-animate structure and attached to it in some way.

Evidence for this being possible:

We know the Nym are constructs, created beings, made of inanimate though not un-living matter.

We know from RJ's interviews and conversations that the Nym have a soul, somehow.



The second possibility is that these 'golems' could have been made as more of a mechanized gofer, following simple, though possibly later models more advanced, command sequences much as computer program does today. Or that these constructs were controlled directly by aes sedai or others, trained to control them through some sort of remote-access device, such as the ter-angreal which accesses the choeden khal.

Evidence for this being possible:

Rand, in the Stone of Tear, uses the One Power to give a 'semblance of life' to some simple household furniture, causing among other things, a table to walk. Showing that the One Power can be used to directly manipulate inanimate matter in such a way as to make it move as though alive.

The Access Keys to the Choeden Khal prove that ter'angreal were created to trigger or access other objects of the one power, atleast in one specific case. If a ter'angreal could be made to access a sa'angreal it is not hard to imagine one being made to access/control a different ter'angreal.


It appears to me that there is equal evidence for both possiblities of 'created beings'. Though neither would be exactly like a d&d golem or a starwars 'droid' both do share possible similarities with these creations of fantasy.

I think it is an easy stretch to say that both sorts of creations existed, as a matter of fact. Perhaps starting with the 'mechanized' version at some point in the past, possibly near the beginning of the Age of Legends and then as understand of the OP grew moving on to the Nym-like creations.

I dont think this is unplausable at all. I would invite someone to show how it adamantly does *not* fit RJ's universe for either of these sort of construct to exist?

~llewin

This post has been edited by Llewin on Oct 19 2004, 09:58 PM
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Aleshandre
Posted: Oct 20 2004, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE
At this point, any continuing comments about how things shouldn't be in my netbook is NOT HELPING me.

First, let me say that if you are looking at this as YOUR netbook, you are not going to create something that the general playing community is going to like. Why? Because if you ignore or berate advice that is intended to help keep the netbook more in line with the novels (as most WoT gamers that I know preffer), you are going to alienate a large section of the WoT community.

QUOTE
That said, thank you for the suggesion to look in the d20 Future book.  I agree that the golems, as we're calling them should be more "machine" or "robot" based - that's what I said, and in fact, that is what was also said today on this board.  Maybe the write ups dont accurately reflect this YET and maybe it is the name golem that is getting to people.  That's why we're discussing this on the board, I dont think that anybody has meant to infer that these creatures have souls or are anything like living, breathing beings.  I'm sorry if there is some confusion ove this.  It should end now.

I agree. The name golem is causing a great deal of animosity on my part for one, and probably so for others. If you are going to use a non-living construct, don't use a name that is so close to one already in the WoT setting. In this case, golem and gholam are too close together for comfort.

QUOTE
On the other hand, to say out of hand that these creatures that we call "golems" from the D&D dont exist in the Age of Legends seems like maybe not quite so true. What are the Nym? They are constructs, they are listed in the books as being such. They cannot reproduce or there would still be little Nym running around; that they appear to be made out of plant matter and somehow imbued with life, and seemingly, a soul. Again I will state that I haven't read the Monster's Manual cover to cover as I play WoT not D&D, but they certainly seem to amount to that which you speak of.

Nym are most certainly NOT like the golem from D&D. In all cases Golem are made from non-living material (iron, steel, stone, wood, flesh). In the case of the Nym, first, they are made from living plants, not dead wood - second, they have souls pulled from the pool of souls that feeds the human and Ogier - third, there is no statement anywhere in the WoT novels or any other material that indicates their reproductive capabilities. The logical reason that they don't currently populate the world that the books are set in is because there was only ONE nym left alive, so regardess of reproductive capacity, there could be NO reproduction.

QUOTE
I think it is an easy stretch to say that both sorts of creations existed, as a matter of fact. Perhaps starting with the 'mechanized' version at some point in the past, possibly near the beginning of the Age of Legends and then as understand of the OP grew moving on to the Nym-like creations.

I dont think this is unplausable at all. I would invite someone to show how it adamantly does *not* fit RJ's universe for either of these sort of construct to exist?

An easy stretch doesn't necessarilly mean a logical stretch. I for one don't think that golem - as such belong in the WoT setting. Unlike a trial, the idea of it fits until proven that it doesn't fit does not apply to a setting that was created by another person. In a cross setting like WoT/D&D, having any sort of D&D creatures invading the WoT world or vise-verse is fine, but in a setting that is based primarilly on the WoT world as designed by RJ, they simply don't fit. If you want to include them in your campaign that fine, it's your campaign.

On the other hand, advice from people who have part of the WoT gaming community from the begining should not be dismissed out of hand, simply because it doesn't fit your idea of what the WoT should be. Those of us who have been with the setting so long that it didn't exist when we first started talking about it to the designers on the original WoT RPG board have a few ideas of what fits and what doesn't and it would be unwise to simply dismiss our opinions. By all means, consider all submissions, but don't assume that advice from those of us who disagree with certain concepts aren't helping. I assure you that I for one am only giving advice because I think that it is good advice and will HELP you create a quality AoL netbook.

Unless requested otherwise, I will not be making any further suggestions for the AoL netbook, since I have been so thoroughly rebuked for "not helping". I must say that I am disappointed in this community as a whole. There are good projects that are being neglected in favor of turning the WoT into another Forgotten Realm instead of remaining true to the nature of the Wheel of Time Setting.

Aleshandre signing off.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 20 2004, 07:38 PM
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Wow....

I think we've got a good round of hurt feelings and pride here on the part of all involved.

Come on guys, make up. We are all allowed to have opinions. Ale I dont think anyone discounts your advice out of hand (though you do sometimes tend to be fairly heavy handed with your suggestions and help and that *does* bruise egos...just something i've noticed). You are a highly valued member of this community!

I've been an active part of the WoT community for a long time though not active in *this* community much until recently and I understand what you are saying about your opinion being worth quite a bit. I am probably on the extreme side of wanting to keep this game setting as true to RJ's world as is at ALL possible. I was thrilled to have a chance to game and GM a world where hack-n-slash wasnt the only plausible way to run a campaign and infact was more difficult to create long term than a campaign focusing more on politics espionage (sp?) and intreague...

I dont think an AoL netbook is a bad project at all. I think netbooks focusing on other time periods in Jordan's 'true timeline' are an invaluable resource... I also think a book of maps both large and small scale would be a very good resource... anything that helps the GM keep a consistent, true-to-the-author ideal is a great idea in my opinion... but that's just me.

why dont we look at what could be done with the one power and try to determine what *reasonably* could have occured in the age of legends and during the war of power.

I feel that both 'living constructs' and 'mechanical constructs' are feasible in the age of legends.... living constructs we already have examples of with the nym so it is fairly plausible that other alive created beings could have existed. As for mechanical constructs it certainly seems to be within the realm of possible to me.

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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 21 2004, 12:43 AM
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Truthfully Aleshandre, you just went from mildly rude to VERY rude. To say that my creating an Age of Legends setting for the Wheel of Time, especially coming from you who has created an alternately timed setting is just plain...childish. I'm sorry if you are offended, but come on. Also, I am in no way trying to create a D&D setting, as I have said...and I am more of a stickler to keeping things in time with the feel of the Wheel of Time than most of the people on this board. (not that I am trying to offend anybody else...just a comment about many of the poeple that are running D&D/WoT cross-overs). If anything, I am making this very Starwars based, so if you want to criticize me for going "away from the feel of the books" at least get it right.

Secondly, to say that you have more clout than me and that your oppinion is more right than mine BECAUSE you have been a member of this board longer than me is the very reason that I originally chose not to post on boards like this. Give me a break. I have posted A LOT in the time that I have been on this board (almost six months now, I think) and it has been very substanitve posts. I run a WoT game, I have read the books many times....so I do have a pretty good idea of the setting that we are dealing with here.

My feeling is that in created a setting for ALL of the members of this board, I should create options that a GM can choose from. This is why Sa'Sara and I are working on multiple types of character creation, one that is more traditonally class based and one that is taken from D20 modern with professions giving you background abilities. I am not going to just include things that I will be using for my game and of course anybody always has the option to pick and choose what they do and dont want to use. that's the fun of being a GM, isn't it? I'm sorry that you disagree with me and that I've offended you by saying that I dont need another person to tell me how the Age of Legends is not. The point is that we all have different ideas of what it would be like, Axel has ideas about the military that might slightly differ from my own - some people want cuellindar armor, others do not. Should I give up on this setting just because other people differ from me on what it should be like?

I dont think so.


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Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource
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* Amadicia Background: Complete with Whitecloak PC and new backgound feat
* Moonwarrior - A Wolfbrother feat in the main Feats section
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 21 2004, 02:00 AM
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I think at this time it would be wise to remember that many times message boards do not properly convey the intended message as well as discussing things in person would. This is due to a lack of seeing body language and tone of voice. One person may read something and get a certain feel for the message that was not intended by the poster. Just saying that it is always safer to assume the poster is not making a personal attack especially if said poster has not history of doing so. In protecting your own feelings you keep yourself from lashing out at those that had no intention of hurting them.

That said, I could certainly see "robot" type contruct at some point. I'm not entirely sure how frequently they would have been used during the late stages of the Age of Legends. Sentient creatures such as Nym, and servants like the ogier and the Daishan Aiel would probably be more effective, plus with the one power out there... But I'm sure that there would have still been uses, I would think more along the lines of mundane things like housekeeping and contruction work rather than simply combat oriented. But those could have existed as well. Anyway, I do think it would be best to do those robots more in the style of Star Wars droids rather than DnD golems.

The "feel" of the books isn't entirely relevant here given the time change. Now there is certainly a "feel" of WoT in general, but I think we can agree it is going to be a little different in the AoL than it is in the AoI. With Jocars and stuff flying around it does have a little taste of Star Wars to me so I think droids could be appropriate that are powered by standing weaves like the jocars. They would have ceased to function with the jocars when the standing weaves went down. Rather than call them golems they need an old tongue name.

Also, Z, I'd like to apologize for not helping you more in this endeavor. I have been extremely busy with medical school and have barely been able to keep my games going. I truly don't have room on my plate to work on it, nor do have much brain matter that isn't full of things like medial femoral circumflex arteries and pudendal nerves. Best of luck working this out, I do look forward to seeing the end product.


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Niveus
Posted: Oct 21 2004, 03:16 AM
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Just to let you all know in case you werent aware,

Golem is a term from the old testiment and is a perfectly resonable name for a construct in the Age of Legends that being said its just a name as long as the descriptive text conveys a WOT accurate history it shouldent matter what it was called

suggestions for alternate names

Mechanicals
Mechanoids
Constructs
Robots
Robotics
Andriods
Droids
Artiificials
Bioandriods
BioMechanicals
Cybernetic Lifeforms
Cybreds
Mechs
Machina
Synthetics

need I go on?


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 21 2004, 06:06 AM
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Niveus, I'm quite aware of that. RJ tends to use a lot of spins off of mythology in his writings/creatures. I'm not going to be redundant in naming them. But I believe that the legend of the golem is embodied (albiet in a twisted sense to fit RJ's vision) in the gholam. I think he intentionally made the names similar like Artur Hawking (King Arthur). But that is just my belief. Everyone puts their own spin on it. Gholam also fits some of the mythology of the vampire. I feel like the halfmen fit into the vampire mythology as well, though. Slayer has some Janus stuff going on. Wait, didn't I say I wasn't going to list this stuff, right.

Anyway, sense in my interpretation, I see the golem mythology emboddied in the gholam, I prefer to go the robot way for these types of constructs... Or something like Frankenstein's monster.

Niveus, I do believe that the name is important. What if Rand's name were Goobersmoocher, and instead of the Dragon Reborn he were the Hamburger Reborn. All Hail, Goobersmoocher, the Hamburger Reborn. Yeah. Anyway, I think it would help for it to have an Old Tongue name given that folks spoke Old Tongue in the Age of Legends. I don't think that is being too unreasonable. Aleshandre would be a good person to come up with an Old Tongue name. He's definitely better with old tongue names than I am. When I have to come up something in OT, I just ask him, to be honest.

P.S. Niveus, just so I don't step on anyone's feelings, that was meant to be said jokingly, no degradingly. Please take it as humor and don't be offended. Enough feelings have been hurt in this topic.


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Uratoh
Posted: Oct 21 2004, 06:29 AM
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Don't forget the term, Homunculus. It refers to a life form brought to life through alchemy, generally with the philosopher's stone. Also, it's the name of this fellow from the game, Shadow of Destiny:

http://www.terra.es/personal2/jaimemunuera/shadow_archivos/image003.jpg
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Niveus
Posted: Oct 21 2004, 06:36 AM
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Offended?!?!? not at all but yeah i agree an old tongue name would be best but as an Aol campaign the old tongue would become comon


but besides that i will check the old tongue dictionary


*** i checked the old tongue dictionary ***

nothing appropriate for a robot so make one up so heres a suggestion or two


shar cue'emera those Without Blood and heart

This post has been edited by Niveus on Oct 21 2004, 06:56 AM


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Aleshandre
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (Zarozynia @ Oct 20 2004, 10:43 PM)
Truthfully Aleshandre, you just went from mildly rude to VERY rude. To say that my creating an Age of Legends setting for the Wheel of Time, especially coming from you who has created an alternately timed setting is just plain...childish. I'm sorry if you are offended, but come on. Also, I am in no way trying to create a D&D setting, as I have said...and I am more of a stickler to keeping things in time with the feel of the Wheel of Time than most of the people on this board. (not that I am trying to offend anybody else...just a comment about many of the poeple that are running D&D/WoT cross-overs). If anything, I am making this very Starwars based, so if you want to criticize me for going "away from the feel of the books" at least get it right.

Secondly, to say that you have more clout than me and that your oppinion is more right than mine BECAUSE you have been a member of this board longer than me is the very reason that I originally chose not to post on boards like this. Give me a break. I have posted A LOT in the time that I have been on this board (almost six months now, I think) and it has been very substanitve posts. I run a WoT game, I have read the books many times....so I do have a pretty good idea of the setting that we are dealing with here.

My feeling is that in created a setting for ALL of the members of this board, I should create options that a GM can choose from. This is why Sa'Sara and I are working on multiple types of character creation, one that is more traditonally class based and one that is taken from D20 modern with professions giving you background abilities. I am not going to just include things that I will be using for my game and of course anybody always has the option to pick and choose what they do and dont want to use. that's the fun of being a GM, isn't it? I'm sorry that you disagree with me and that I've offended you by saying that I dont need another person to tell me how the Age of Legends is not. The point is that we all have different ideas of what it would be like, Axel has ideas about the military that might slightly differ from my own - some people want cuellindar armor, others do not. Should I give up on this setting just because other people differ from me on what it should be like?

I dont think so.

I want to set the record straight.

First, I did not say that my oppinions hold more weight than anyone elses. What I said is that my oppinions and suggestions should not be dismissed out of hand, just because they don't fit your ideas.

Second, I did create another timeline different from the books and did take alot of leway with the way I went about it, but I also tried to stay true to the feel of the WoT and I sought out the oppinions and advice of the rest of the community.

Third, my comment to you is that you should treat the AoL project as belonging to the entire WoT gaming community, rather than as your personal setting. I gave clear reasons for this advice and it was not intended to be a personal attack.

Fourth, my intention in making my previous post and in this one was to be sharp and pointed, not to be rude. If it was overbearing, I appologize for that, but I will not retract the phrasing of what I said, only for the tone in which it was recieved.

Fifth, the number of posts a person makes has little bearing on the quality of those posts nor on the content thereof. I have seen a few people who rarely post, but when they do, they are clear and to the point, often with more substance in a few short sentances that I can produce with several paragraphs.

Finally, I have been involved with this community since Rodney Thompson and Charles Ryan were part of it, before it migrated to this forum. In that time I have made thousands of posts and helped to create 2 netbooks as well as helping to troubleshoot Freya's Character sheet generator. I have also read the entire series cover to cover to cover 3 times (including rereading the last 3 books 4 additional times). I have a fairly decent feel for the setting and the probable variations of it. I don't expect you to take all of my advice nor am I asking you to. Instead, I am asking you to listen to it and grant that I have alittle experience in this setting (not to mention the other 2 settings that I have been working on) and that my advice should be given some credence, even if it is not followed. Your comments to me have been very rude and without any apparent remorse for it, yet you accuse me of being rude. Isn't that abit like the pot calling the kettle black?

I am now done in this thread. If you have anything more to discuss with me, PM me so we can discuss our differences in private.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 06:39 PM
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Niveus, I like that name.


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Niveus
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 07:23 PM
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thanx sharn I thought it was a good one too smile.gif
shar cue'emera

those Without Blood and heart

note according to Old Tongue Dictionary
Shar = blood
Cue = heart
e = and
mera = without or "blank"less

with a non specific name we can make the robotic and or andriod creatures and not be stuck with the golem problem

but i would like to point out that if i was going to make a big android to guard somthing you could easily make androids look like gigantic armoured knights or rock monsters etc..


Robotics d20 future page 174




how long could a cybernetic organism survive in a modified stasis box....



This post has been edited by Niveus on Oct 22 2004, 07:46 PM


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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 22 2004, 11:33 PM
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Go Niveus! Great name!

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Niveus
Posted: Oct 23 2004, 01:25 AM
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*bows*


Sentry Scorpion XJ6 “huge Biomorph”
Hit points: 85
Attacks: +6/+6/+1
Dmg: 2d6/2d6/4d6
AC: 16

Str: 31, Dex :6, Con: n/a, Int: n/a,Wis: 10, Cha: 1

AOL description:
Resembling a large armored scorpion it has two huge forearms that end pincer claws and 6 magnetic legs as well as an fully articulated tail that ends in an Avenger Electro-scimatar

AoI description: A gigantic armored scorpion that seems to electrified

This is just a quick write up of something

It has intergrated Resilium armour and a class 3 sensor system

And that’s about all I did if you like it I simply used the rules from the robot section and cheated with a weapon from the mech section


This post has been edited by Niveus on Oct 23 2004, 02:14 AM


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