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> Channeling Rule Adjustments and Additions, by llewin and kaimus, GM Team
Llewin
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 02:32 AM
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My co-GM and I would like some opinions on our work-in-progress on adapting the channelling rules so that they more-accurately reflect RJ's universe during the Age of Illusions... Any suggestions or constructive criticizms or even praise are appreciated smile.gif

1. Learning new weaves
  • In order to more accurately mirror the level of knowledge held by the Accepted of the White Tower and presumably the initiates of the Seafolk and the Aiel as well, Initiates will learn 3 new weaves for each initiate level taken as long as they have had access to a channeller of a higher level to train them.
  • Wilders do not automatically learn new spells at each level unless they take levels in initiate.
  • New weaves may be learned by any channeller with each new level through research.


The following rules apply to learning new weaves through research.
  • Learning a new weave starts on a base DC of 25 vs Concentration and Fortitude save of DC 25+weaves lowest level.
  • In addition to the base DCs the following modifiers apply to learning a new weave (and stack with eachother):
    • Some Affinities but not all:.........................................Base DC +5..........Fort Save +3
    • No Affinities in common:.............................................Base DC +10..........Fort Save +5
    • Weave outside known talents:...................................Base DC +10..........Fort Save +5
    • Weave is rare:............................................................Base DC +10..........Fort Save +5
    • Weave is Lost or unique (or completely new):............Base DC +20..........Fort Save +10
    • Learning weave on the fly or under pressure:............Base DC: +10..........Fort Save +5
  • At the beginning of each new level if the channeller succeeds at learning a new weave they may continue to attempt to learn new weaves. Once they fail they must stop trying to learn new weaves at that time.
  • During each game-day a channeller may attempt to learn new weaves through research. They may continue to learn new weaves until they fail an attempt at which point they are too mentally drained to continue until the next game-day or until they are able to channel again, whichever comes last.

Recovering spent weave slots:
  • You must sleep a full 6 hours to regain weaves spent during a day.
  • If you do not sleep the full 6 hours you will regain no weaves.
  • If you sleep the full six hours you will regain all weave slots used.

In order to more accurately mirror how a channeler casts against a ranged target and the invisibility of a weave being cast we have adjusted the ranged-attack rules for casting weaves:

Using weaves that require a ranged target:
  • To use a weave that requires a ranged target (not target self or touch) acts similarly to using a ranged weapon.
  • Instead of DC equal to the character's DEF score the base DC to hit with a ranged spell is 18
  • Modifiers to this base DC are as follows:
    • Cover:
      • One Quarter Cover:.......................+ 2 to DC
      • One-Half cover:.............................+ 4 to DC
      • Three-Quarter Cover:....................+ 7 to DC
      • Nine-Tenths cover:........................+10 to DC
    • Target is in melee:...................................+ 2 to DC
    • Target is flatfooted:..................................- 2 to DC
    • Coup de Gras applies, weave succeeds automatically.
    • Each additional ranged weave cast during the same round receives a +5 to the DC to hit
    • When rolling to cast a ranged weave roll 1d20 + 1/2 channeller level (minimum 1) + both channeller modifiers (eg. Int and Wis for Initiates; Wis and Cha for Wilders)
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Llewin
Posted: Oct 25 2004, 06:16 PM
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*snuffle* what, no ascerbic rantings about how horrible my channeling changes are? *grin* lol...

i would love feedback pweeze smile.gif

~llewin
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drothgery
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 06:03 AM
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QUOTE (Llewin @ Oct 25 2004, 08:16 AM)
*snuffle* what, no ascerbic rantings about how horrible my channeling changes are? *grin* lol...

i would love feedback pweeze smile.gif

Well, you asked...

* 3 weaves/level for "free" is a bit much
* nothing for wilders is a bit punative (and I'm the guy who's argued that wilder's should be a pathetic NPC class, or just replaced outright)

* success of research shouldn't be based off of a concentration check; it should be based off of a weavesight check
* the DCs get absurd pretty quickly
* there's no penalty for failed research saves beyond an inability to do research for the rest of the day

* Is there any reason at all for keeping the "all or nothing" weave restoration, but changing from eight hours overnight rest to six hours rest at any time?

* The targeting rules seem unnecessary and complex; there are already rules for cover granting bonuses to ref saves and attacks, so ranged touch weaves and weaves that force a ref save are covered by the existing mechanics


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 07:01 AM
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Thanks droth.

Ok let me tell you where i'm coming from...

I didnt feel the three for free was a bit much since an initiate is being actively trained but i'd like to hear what others think...

I'm not sure where to go with wilders however, i do see your point but if you're not being trained you dont get a weave for free realistically, unless you see it with weavesight.

I used concentration for the research checks because the checks are based on the overchannelling table on the premise that if you are dabbling with the onepower in a way that you have little or no experience, eg. trying to figure out new ways to use it, you are treading dangerous ground. The DCs only get absurd if you try to stretch beyond reasonable boundaries, atleast i think they are reasonable considering how quickly you can rack up points in concentration, especially as a wilder (which balances initiates learning them free, wilders get a bonus to research effectively) The penalty for failed research is exactly the same as the penalty for failed overchanneling.

As for the all or nothing weave restoration, that is something that i wanted to change and its a work in progress. we lowered it to 6 hours because it appears from RJs writings that aes sedai regenerate their abilities in channelling faster than a normal person recovers from exhaustion *shrug* like i said, work in progress smile.gif

Now as for the targeting rules, they really arent complicated, its basically the same rules that apply to a ranged weapon attack only its based on the characters ability with the one power rather than an archer's ability with a bow.... now i have a major issue with most of the saves in the weaves in the game book and we dont tend to use most of them.

here's my issue... HOW DO YOU DODGE HARDENED AIR?? smile.gif

Point being, it isnt possible to 'get out of the way' of the one power unless you can see it being woven or feel it being woven. The few exceptions to this rule are situations where the power is manifested in a visual way such as a fireball flying through the air, sure, you can try to jump out of the way... but if an AS is wrapping you in arms of air? there's no way, one second you can move the next you cant, thats all there is to it.

So instead of putting the focus on the person being attacked and their ability to get out of the way we put the focus on the channeller and their ability to actually direct their weave effectively and accurately.

I really dont see it as being that complicated and i'd appreciate it if you could show me how it is more complicated than ranged attacks in general?

for example lets say Toviendei Shorloran, a Domani Accepted in the White Tower has an INT of 17 and a WIS of 12 so she gets a +3 and a +1 modifier for her channeling stats. She's also a lvl 4 initiate so half her level gives her a +2 modifer to her roll for a total modification of +6 at lvl 4. Seems a bit high compared to a lvl 4 woodsman with his bow? i dont know... if he has a reasonable dex, say 15, he has a +2 modifier right there plus his BAB which should be +4 at lvl 4 if memory serves (i dont have my game book in front of me) so thats +6 all by itself, however most of what he is going to firing at at 4th level is not going to have a DEF score of 18 or higher which is where the DC for the channelling success begins, so it is still not an even comparison, we purposefully made it a bit difficult for the channeller to 'aim effectively' at lower levels but i dont think unreasonably so...

what does everyone else think?
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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 02:49 PM
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Llewin, I agree with a lot of what you said, at least in concept. Especially about the not being able to dodging a weave that you cannot see. I'm just confused as to why you have a base ranged DC that is different from the targets defense. You should have to make a ranged attack against them, as far as I can tell. Why would it be different from their defense, except, perhaps, their defense flat footed since they cant dodge away from something that they cant see (unless they are a channeler of the same sex, of course).

That said, I hate what you did to wilders. Yes, wilders dont get taught new weaves, but it is pretty obvious from the books that Rand can learn weaves without being taught. Some might chalk it up to LTT telling him subconsciouslly what to do or something; but I think that wilders learn weaves organically; while initiates are taught. I dont allow my wilder to take a weave that he cant justify why he might have done it; and we generally give him his "one weave per level" in the heat of battle when there is something that needs to be done...like, #$$^ I need to put that fire out, or something. That seems like a better house rule than saying that they cant learn any weaves except with weavesite; because then you're required (sort of) as a GM to have the same sexed channelers weaving around them or else they are pretty useless as player characters. And I like the Wilder class, so it would prefer that it wasn't useless.

As for the effects of channeling research being the same as failed checks for overchanneling, that doesn make sense to me either. I am reminded of Siuan and Leane practicing for their test for the shawl...there were weaves that when performed correctly made pretty flashing lights, when not, made a loud bang that gave you a headache. I feel like that would be more the effects of channeling research, sure you stand the chance of stilling yourself and so forth; but also of having a whole slew of weird effects that were unintended such as explosions, strange lights and sounds, and maybe making an entirely different weave than you intended to.

smile.gif I think that you have some good ideas here, but that they probably need some work still.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 06:51 PM
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OK. Thanks to you as well Z.

I felt that the Wilder's bonus to overchanneling balanced with the initiate getting free weaves since i was using the overchanneling system for the research (which i kindof thought could just as easily be organic as systematic researching...)

You dont think its enough of a balance?

The reason we picked a DC of 18 instead of the DEF of the target is to reflect that the individuals ability to 'get out of the way' or their armor's ability to deflect damage has nothing to do with a channeller hitting them with a weave. We felt it had more to do with the channeller being effective and able to aim accurately. Does that seem reasonable? I look at it this way... is it going to be harder for a channeller to wrap arms of air around a myrdraahl than it is to wrap arms of air around some random guardsman or a trolloc? I dont think it would be. I think the difficulty would be the same for all of them...they cant see it coming so why would their defense rating have anything to do with it? make sense or no?

Also as far as the Initiates getting weaves, its important to note that they *only* get those three free weaves if they have had a higher level channeller teaching them during their level progression...if not then they get no extras and the wilder will always have their bonus to overchannel when researching.

I do think that your suggestion that the penalty for failing a research attempt be more along the lines of the books in that they could make a bomb or just a whoopee cushion sound or who knows what... I'll have to think about that. Anyone have ideas of what the different failures could be (obviously though one of them would have to be stilling)

Keep the help coming please smile.gif I'm loving it, i want a well balanced system here
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Aleshandre
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 08:23 PM
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I think you should create a list of possible results based on a die roll (kindof like a wand of wonder). The degree of damage should be based on the degree of failure (a natural 1 should always risk stilling and death). The same table should be useable for overchanneling or unravelling a weave and for experimenting with ter'angreal. There should be a "resulting weave/effect" table for experimenting and for unravelling and a "damage" table for all of the above.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 10:15 PM
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Ale so you're thinking two separate tables for unraveling, ter'angreal experimentation, and weave research....

One is a random % die roll for effect on failure and the other is a table on the inward effect on the channeller based on how badly they fail?
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Aleshandre
Posted: Oct 27 2004, 04:13 PM
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Correct. That is precisely what I meant, though for ter'angreal, unless there are multiple uses for it, the random effects would be inappropriate.


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Niveus
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 02:03 AM
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check out the wild surges table from the Tomb of Magic for Ad&d 2nd Edition it gives some good ideas just modify it so it is more wheel of time if I can find it in PDF format I will post it


niv


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Llewin
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 03:18 AM
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hook me up with pdf at hallet2004@godsfamily.com if you find one niv ok? smile.gif Thanks!

~llewin
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Niveus
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 11:30 AM
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hmm I can't find a PDF file im going to keep looking its a huge table based on percentile so I cant really type it out but i will keep looking


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Kaimus
Posted: Nov 3 2004, 08:05 PM
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Heya. I'm the co-GM. Figured I'd drop in (well, not drop in. I've been skulking about for a bit) and try to force everyone into more critisism and argument. biggrin.gif


IMO, the issue with learning new weaves isn't one of RJ's universe, since in the stories, wilder ARE nerfed. The issue is balance. We're trying desperately to find a way to make Wilder a plausible starting class. As it stands, using the universe we've been given, wilders are nearly useless until they can find training.

(Using Rand as an example of wilders is a bit unfair since he's kinda...well...he's the Dragon. tongue.gif )


QUOTE
As for the effects of channeling research being the same as failed checks for overchanneling, that doesn make sense to me either. I am reminded of Siuan and Leane practicing for their test for the shawl...there were weaves that when performed correctly made pretty flashing lights, when not, made a loud bang that gave you a headache. I feel like that would be more the effects of channeling research, sure you stand the chance of stilling yourself and so forth; but also of having a whole slew of weird effects that were unintended such as explosions, strange lights and sounds, and maybe making an entirely different weave than you intended to.


This idea I like a lot. Any possibility of helping us elaborate on that? That would be a frustratingly fun table to make players go through during downtimes. smile.gif


All of my other opinions are well covered in Llewin's posts. *nods seriously*


Kaimus
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