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> Heroes of the Horn, Like a big, giant, watermelon
Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 18 2004, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE
but what of balefire?

Balefire only burns the thread out of the pattern, it doesn't destroy the soul.

QUOTE
I propose a Law of Conservation of Souls: A soul can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change forms.

That belief is already had in Christianity and indeed in many eastern philosophies as well, so we can say that it is likely that RJ intended that to be part of the basis of people being spun out in the pattern.


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 18 2004, 06:55 PM
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I propose a Law of Conservation of Souls: A soul can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change forms.


I'll bite, that makes more sense. Now about the Horn. There are only so many major Events in each age correct? Do we think there are many or only 1 or 2 per age? If there are many then there are ample opportunities for people to be tied to the horn for the first time and still spend ages (literally) passing around the tabac pipe in tel'aran'rhiod with all the other Horners...

However if there are only a few then most likely the Horners would only have people added to their number very very slowly. If that's the case then by the third age would there have been around 100 answering the Horn's call when mat blew?

I propose that certain souls are eternally set apart and that the Horn of Valere is merely a ter'angreal of some sort created at some time during some age which was made to tap in to that well of souls, not the source of their distinction, merely a tool to utilize it.

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Axel
Posted: Aug 21 2004, 01:23 AM
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But how would they be distinguished?


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 21 2004, 03:30 PM
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In the same way that the Dragon is distinguished? His soul was created by the creator to be an avatar in times of need. Is it far fetched that the creator would have set aside certain other souls to be used by his created wheel and pattern as the need came about?
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Axel
Posted: Aug 24 2004, 10:32 PM
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The Dragon is simply reborn to continue the threading of the Pattern and fulfill his place in it just as everyone else is reborn. There's simply no way to distinguish who's important enough to be set aside and who isn't. Put this way:
The valiant knight is important enough to be reborn. Are his retainers? They've saved his life on more than one occassion and are essential to his continuing his job, but are they truly Heroes? Probably not. But when he is reborn are they completely new retainers? If so then why not the old ones? The idea that only certain people are reborn is preposterous.
Besides we know from Ishmael that he and Lews Therin have battled many times in many forms through the Ages. Why would the creator set the greatest threat to the Pattern aside to be specially repeated over and over.


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 25 2004, 12:52 AM
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Ok, for lack of a good arguement I can set aside the possiblity of only certain souls being reborn at all.

However what we are really talking about here is the Heroes of the Horn which are tied to the wheel in a special way. If they were not tied in a special way then EVERY soul not currently a thread in the pattern would be summoned by the sounding of the Horn. Since there were only approximately 100 there at the sounding of the Horn then the Heroes must be tied to the Wheel of Time in a way that distinguishes them from the average soul. Rand is also tied in a special way, and for that matter, Ishy most likely is as well. Remember RJ's universe is VERY balanced and if the Creator made an avatar for the Light he would most likely have made a counter-balance as well.
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Axel
Posted: Aug 25 2004, 09:57 PM
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It is the Horn itself that binds them in Tel'aran'rhiod, not the Wheel.


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 25 2004, 11:07 PM
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Sorry Axel I'm gonna need to hear that from Canon to accept that.

It makes no logical sense for the artifact to be the tool of the binding of souls. The tool would then have to have been created at the beginning of time, along with the wheel and since there is no indication that it was created by the Creator, where as there is canon supporting the idea that the Creator did in fact create time and the Wheel...it makes much more sense that the Heroes are in fact bound to the Wheel of Time itself and that the Horn is merely a man-made tool used to tap into that pool of heroic souls.
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Axel
Posted: Aug 26 2004, 09:44 PM
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We have AoD, is that enough? I mean c'mon Jordan's making this stuff up as much as we are, since there's no way he'll touch this subject in any reasonable way in his story we should make it up ourselves. Besides it makes perfect sense. We know that only the Heroes are bound in Tel'aran'rhiod. Even if we don't have that directly if it wasn't that way the place'd be overflowing with dead people. Therefore the Heroes have to be distinguished by something. The only thing they have in common is the Horn, therefore it is the source of their binding.


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bmtc
Posted: Aug 26 2004, 11:05 PM
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I think that the wheel is the source of their binding and that the horn is only a connection to that source. an artifact capable of messing with the almighty wheel of time? not happening. The horn merely taps into what is already there, and what was there since the beginning of time.

These souls are distinguished because of their binding to tel'aran'rhiod and the wheels insistince on having them respun into situations where the heroism can rise forth. The horn doesn't bind them. it doesn't have that kind of power.
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Llewin
Posted: Aug 26 2004, 11:38 PM
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bmtc... *agree*

The fact that they are in t'a'r is enough to set them aside without the horn itself being the item of distinction.

There is nothing in RJ's writing that indicate's that the horn can be USED to tie someone in to the t'a'r hero rebirth cycle.

And though you are correct that he most likely wont go in to great detail in his books about the specifics of the Heroes he has already given us a creation that does not require any more special abilities of the Horn (such as the ability to tie someone into the perpetual cycle of death life in t'a'r and rebirth in times of need).

Given that the only things implied to have been created by the Creator are: The Wheel, The Pattern, and The Prison (the DO's) we do not need to invent another object made by the creator at the beginning of time.

Additionally if the Horn ties people to t'a'r wouldn't anyone who blew it be tied, and would the Creator make an item with such little ability to determine good and evil in the disbursal of power? The Wheel is apparently driven by some intelligent force or intelligent design, would anything else made by the creator lack that intelligence?

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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (bmtc @ Aug 26 2004, 09:05 PM)
an artifact capable of messing with the almighty wheel of time? not happening.

What about the Ter'angreal that created the Bore? "The DarkOne was sealed away at the moment of Creation." Yet, the thinness allowed the Dark One to be freed through the use of an artifact that allowed the DarkOne to touch the pattern. If there can be one artifact that is "capable of messing with the almighty wheel of time", then there can be another.

If you want to say that the bore is part of the pattern, then the same can be said of the Horn of Valere.


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 08:08 PM
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Ale, do i sense a note of devil's advocate? *chuckle*...

Arent' you the one that I saw posting about there being no need to create a new artifice for RJ's world if the one's he's already created explain something? smile.gif
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Zinuk
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre)
What about the Ter'angreal that created the Bore? "The DarkOne was sealed away at the moment of Creation." Yet, the thinness allowed the Dark One to be freed through the use of an artifact that allowed the DarkOne to touch the pattern. If there can be one artifact that is "capable of messing with the almighty wheel of time", then there can be another.

If you want to say that the bore is part of the pattern, then the same can be said of the Horn of Valere.


As time is cyclic, it is included in the Pattern that the DO should get free at one time (or else there wouldn't be any Third Age). So the ter'angreal that helped bore the prison only used a weakness that was present by purpose (the Pattern's doing); it didn't mess with the Wheel of Time: it accomplished what was meant to happen.

As for being bound by the Wheel or by the Horn, let me recall what Arthur Hawkwing says about it:

QUOTE (TGH @ Chap 47, p 660)
"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

"Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages.["]


This makes it clear that bound to the Wheel or bound to the Horn is exactly the same thing. In fact, I think that the expression "bound to the Horn" only originates from the fact that the Horn can call those bound to the Wheel and not from the Horn's ability to actually bind anybody to itself. It is merely a tool to call them. It is the Wheel and the Pattern that do the binding, by selecting special people (based on their actions).
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Llewin
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 09:03 PM
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*watches Zinuk slam dunk*

rock on man.

biggrin.gif

~llewin

This post has been edited by Llewin on Aug 30 2004, 07:31 PM
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Axel
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 12:44 AM
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No, that doesn't work. If time is cyclic then the appearance of all people must be cyclic. For it to work any other way is nonsensical (see: Law of Conservation of Souls) If nothing else the intereconnecting relationships of people are too complex to remove any from the Pattern of an Age. Therefore something distinguishes Heroes from everyday people. We know from the books that the Creator does not interfere in his creation, therefore we can rule him out as the force that determines who is special. The Wheel is not intelligent, hell there's not even a Wheel if you think about it, it and the Pattern it are merely an analogy. The Pattern is simply an anology for the preset course that time follows and the Wheel is an analogy for the force that keeps time moving on that course. This force, like the Force, is not intelligent, is not good, and is not evil, it just is.
What else have we? Only two possibilities:
1) All souls hang out in Tel'aran'rhiod. Actually this isn't as ridiculous as it sounds at first. We know that all wolves are bound to Tel'aran'rhiod waiting for rebirth. It isn't too much of a stretch to say that all wolfbrothers are bound the same way. If this is so then it isn't much more of a stretch to say that all people are bound this way and that only Heroes are called out over and over. The only real flaw with this is that it leaves us with a World of Dreams that ought to be overflowing with dead people.
2) The Heroes are bound to the World of Dreams by something else. The only thing we haven't considered so far is the Horn. We also know that the only thing any of these people really have in common is, indeed, the Horn. So the Heroes are bound by the Horn.

As for Hawkwing, consider these two explanations: 1) Hawkwing doesn't know what he's talking about. This wouldn't be the first time if we consider what is related about his life. Probably more acceptable to you would be 2) that what Hawkwing means is souls that are bound to be reborn in every Age. As opposed to most people who are born in 1 Age and just hang out until the others pass.


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Zinuk
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (Axel)
As for Hawkwing, consider these two explanations: 1) Hawkwing doesn't know what he's talking about. This wouldn't be the first time if we consider what is related about his life. Probably more acceptable to you would be 2) that what Hawkwing means is souls that are bound to be reborn in every Age. As opposed to most people who are born in 1 Age and just hang out until the others pass.

Remember that the Hawking we hear is not the Hawking of the 3rd Age: it is the Hawking of all the Ages, which means he has the knowledge of everything that has happened for many ages. Thanks to this huge knowledge, he certainly knows how thing works and I don't think he could be saying nonesense.

QUOTE (Axel)
The Wheel is not intelligent, hell there's not even a Wheel if you think about it, it and the Pattern it are merely an analogy. The Pattern is simply an anology for the preset course that time follows and the Wheel is an analogy for the force that keeps time moving on that course. This force, like the Force, is not intelligent, is not good, and is not evil, it just is.

Two points:
  • How would the Horn, a mere object, be intelligent enough to choose which soul has acted in such a way it must be bound to the Wheel? If you suppose that it is the Horn that binds Heroes, then you have the same problem that the one you mention.
  • But, at the other hand, why do you think the Pattern is not intelligent? It is nothing like the Force of Star Wars, which doesn't mess directly with people's life. In WoT, the Pattern is what enforces that events will happen again. The "Wheel of Time" is certainly not a wheel that turns and with it turns the universe; it is just a convenient name for what makes the time cyclic and what is important is the concept behind it, not the actual name. And the Concept behind the Wheel and/or the Pattern must be intelligent enough to know when to spun each soul, when to spun ta'veren to restablish the normal course of events, ... This is things that can hardly be done if the Pattern has not some kind of intelligence. And being intelligent, it would be able to bind Heroes, and the Horn would only be the tool to call them. It just makes much more sense this way round.
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Aleshandre
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 02:02 PM
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AAAALLRighteythen.

1) The quote that we just saw shows that RJ intends that only a few people are actually bound to the pattern in a manner different than the rest of the people. Arguing against the Creator is useless, so we may as well accept it, whether or not we think it fits our logical assumptions. Remember, logic isn't always accurate when talking about fantasy.

2) Since more HotH are added occasionally, we need to look at the circumstances that are most likely to occur. Hawkwing mentioned to Hurin that he belived that another had joined the ranks of the HotH, implying that Hurin had become one of them. This leaves only one known circumstance that differs from other people who have fought valiantly (like Lan), since courage and valor are common to many who aren't HotH. That circumstance is fighting under the Dragon banner after the sounding of the Horn. This leads me to belive that only those who are exceptionally valorous and courageous and follow the Dragon Banner after the sounding of the Horn of Valere or perhaps simply being in the presence of the Dragon Banner (within a specific distance) when it is sounded.


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Niveus
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 07:59 PM
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1.) Hurrin was a key part in preventing the DO from sounding the horn or at the very least a minion that is an important factor in his Herodom

2.) the idea that all the souls of the dead hang out in the world of dreams is not so far fetched as axel as already suggested considdering how many wolves there are and how many souls must be dead why isnt the WOD over run with wolves etc..

I have 2 ideas

1) they avoid others who can traverse the WOD so it appears empty just as grease on the surface of water avoids soap so do the souls waiting to be reborn. birgette sais she wasnt supposed to be talking to nynaeve maybe heroes are the only ones bound strong enough to over come the repulsion.

2) if i was dead i wouldent hang around by myself in the world of dreams i would find others to hang out with maybe there is a city of the dead.


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Llewin
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 10:59 PM
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Ale has it right on.

The quote we see Artur Hawkwing make is clearly meant by RJ to imply that the Heroes tied to the Wheel/Horn are set aside in a special way. Whether we wish can make sense of that or not doesnt matter. That's the way it is.

Now as to how someone becomes tied to the wheel as a Hero... I dont think it has anything to do with being near the horn blower or near the dragon banner. That seems too indiscrimate. What about the other Shienaran soldiers who charged in to Falme?

Artur could have been doing a few things.

First, simply offering a compliment to a good soldier, building up his courage. What general would do any differently.

Second, implying that Hurin had performed an act of courage which set him apart and that the Hawkwing, who has much experience with how people are tied to the Wheel (through simple conversation with other Heroes), but certainly isnt the one who chooses it new heroes, believed he may have done enough to become a new Hero.

Third, implying that he knew Hurin had performed the act or an act necessary to tie him to the Horn.

I believe it was the Second option. I dont believe that the Hawkwing know's hurin did what was necessary (such as standing near the horn and banner when the horn was blown). However Hawkwing did see a man with quiet courage and true humility fighting along side him (and has not had chance to see Lan, Moiraine, Rhuarc, or any other currently spun soul in action) and so implied that perhaps this Hurin would become a new member of their band of Heroes.

Third if you assume the Wheel/Pattern has no intelligence then you must also assume the Horn has no intelligence. (as Zinuk pointed out) Therefore if the Horn has no intelligence then it must bind a new Hero through a mechanical event much like the one suggested about 'standing near the horn and banner'. Once again this idea is very shakey. If anyone who touches, blows, farts in the direction of, or dreams about the Horn of Valere is bound to the pattern/wheel/horn as a Hero then that means that ANYONE no matter their personality, morals, ethics, heroism or lack of all of the above can be bound as a Hero. That's silly.

Fourth, to assume the Wheel/Pattern has no intelligence when we are told by RJ that the pattern specifically spins Ta'veren into existence to forward the design it wishes is an act of stubbornness rivaled only by Nynaeve at her most bristly... if NOTHING else the pattern was created by the Creator with a series of yes and no responses, 1s and 0s if you will, just like the computers and programs we design now. So if we can make a program that imitates intelligence to a fairly successful degree I would imagine that the being responsible for the creation of the Universe is probably a pretty good computer programmer as well...hmmm?

Fifth, though time in the WoT universe is in fact cyclic that does not in any way mean that the events happen in an identical manner over and over again. The only events that need to happen in a semblance of similarity are those which signal the beginning and end of each age as well as possibly the events directly tied to that beginning and end. and as a matter of fact, if we need to wait an entire age for any soul to be reborn then it is impossible for the people of emond's field to have a sense of deja vu about the trolloc battle when none of their souls would have been involved in the battle for Manetheren, which is clearly where RJ was going with that deja vu experience of 'feeling as if they had done this before'.

Sixth, ....that's all...i think...yeah...wait...no yeah... smile.gif

~llewin

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