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> Errata Clarification - help!, Multi-classing Wilder/Initiate conflict
wolfgaidin
  Posted: Jan 24 2004, 05:16 PM
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OK, I need some help. I got the errata posting from the WoTC message boards, and they helped immensly, especially in clarifying how a multi-class Wilder/Initiate works. There was one clarifiction left out -

What stat do you base your Weave Saving Throws on, and what stat do you base your highest level of Weave you can cast on? unsure.gif

Also, there is a confliction of rules in the WoT RPG sourcebook too:

Under Initiate: "To cast a weave, an initiate must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the weave's level." and "The Difficulty Class of a saving throw against an initiate's weave is 10 + the weave's level + the initiate's Wisdom modifier."

Under The One Power(Casting Weaves[Saving Throw]): "Saving Throw Difficulty Class: A saving throw against a weave has a DC of 10 + the level of the weave + the caster's bonus for the relevant ability (Intelligence for the initiate, Wisdom for a wilder.)" unsure.gif

So it says one place Int for initiates, and Wis in another. Which do you use?

I'm gonna copy/paste the existing clarification errata on this below, for ease of reference:

QUOTE
Errata and official answers from game designer Charles Ryan. Copied from the Tower Library.


Q: How do multi classed Initiate/Wilders work?
A: A channeler who multiclasses between the initiate and wilder classes must use Table 3-5: Initiate Weaves for determining her number of weaves. The character's level, for determining the number of weaves, is equal to her total channeling level (in other words, the total of her levels in initiate and wilder).

However, characters with levels in both wilder and initiate gain bonus weaves from Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

A couple of notes. In a few cases, a character who multiclasses will actually lose some channeling ability. For example, a 3rd-level wilder can cast 1 3rd-level weave per day. If she adds a level in initiate (and thus gets the weaves per day of a 4th-level initiate), she looses the ability to cast 3rd-level weaves. Unfortunately, setbacks like these are part of the cost of learning a new class.

Also, the rules do not require a character to multi-class. A wilder who goes to Tar Valon can continue to advance as a wilder if she wants. It's perfectly possible for a powerful Aes Sedai to have levels only in wilder, with no initiate or Aes Sedai prestige class levels

In order for an initiate to multiclass into wilder (meaning they have no previous levels of wilder), they must have [or take] the Eliminate Block feat.

When a channeler multi-classes, they get all the benefits of the new class (including a second talent and affinity). When benefits conflict (like overchanneling), the character uses the best option (which, in the case of overchanneling, would be wilder's ability.). They also suffer the restrictions of the other classes (a Wilder multiclassing into initiate would have to join one of the four initiate traditions - which can mean gaining a mentor).
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Aleshandre
Posted: Jan 24 2004, 07:55 PM
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Intelligence is the one that you use for an initiate. Wisdome for Wilder. Ignore the refference to Wisdom for the Initiate.


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wolfgaidin
Posted: Jan 24 2004, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre @ Jan 24 2004, 07:55 PM)
Intelligence is the one that you use for an initiate. Wisdome for Wilder. Ignore the refference to Wisdom for the Initiate.

Cool. Now if you're a multiclass Wilder/Initiate which stat do you use for bonus Weaves and the DC of Saving Throws?

Thanks! biggrin.gif
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KSBsnowowl
Posted: Jan 24 2004, 11:23 PM
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IIRC, multiclass Initiate/Wilders can use either Int or Wis to set save DC's (the higher of the two). One could alternately rule that they use the one from their first class, no matter what.

Now, as to the bonus weaves, MC Initiate/Wilders get bonus weaves from all three mental stats (int, wis, cha). This part is stated in the quote you provided. Yes, the 'official' rules heavily favor Init/Wild multiclassing.


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wolfgaidin
Posted: Jan 25 2004, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (KSBsnowowl @ Jan 24 2004, 11:23 PM)
Now, as to the bonus weaves, MC Initiate/Wilders get bonus weaves from all three mental stats (int, wis, cha). This part is stated in the quote you provided. Yes, the 'official' rules heavily favor Init/Wild multiclassing.

*argh* wink.gif I must have been not paying attention to what I was typing. I know about the Bonus slots for stats thing. What I meant to ask was which stat determines the highest level of Weave you can learn. Int for Initaite, Wis for Wilder, but which if you multi-class.

Sorry for the mess-up and thanks for the help! smile.gif
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Guest
Posted: Jan 25 2004, 04:50 PM
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Offically speaking, multi-class Wilder/Intiates gain the best of both classes. They use the best of their prime channeling score to determine highest level weave and weave DC, sll their channeling score for bonus weaves and gain all the special abilities of both classes.

IMO, this is one of those instances where the offical rules are dung. smile.gif
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LuciusT
Posted: Jan 25 2004, 04:57 PM
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Opps, forgot to log in.
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Timetwister
Posted: Jan 25 2004, 05:36 PM
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Yup, it is a known issue that begs to be used in powerplay.


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Guest
Posted: Jan 25 2004, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (Guest @ Jan 25 2004, 04:50 PM)
Offically speaking, multi-class Wilder/Intiates gain the best of both classes. They use the best of their prime channeling score to determine highest level weave and weave DC, sll their channeling score for bonus weaves and gain all the special abilities of both classes.

IMO, this is one of those instances where the offical rules are dung. smile.gif

Good Lord. I think I may be doing some revisions for my group. That's just wrong. Why wouldn't you multiclass? Ah, what I wouldn't give for a 2.0. hehe. biggrin.gif

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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 25 2004, 10:05 PM
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well, in actuality, the balancing factor in this is that if an Initiate wants to MC into Wilder, they have to purchase the Eliminate Block feat. And if a Wilder wants to MC into Initiate, then he looses a bunch of weaves (you have to use the Initiate's chart, no matter what). And if a wilder MC's into initiate, unless she gets trained again by a wilder on her own and outside a Tower, then you HAVE to proceed through Initiate. likewise with an initiate MCing into wilder. It's not completely balanced, but it's better than you guys are making it out to be.


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wolfgaidin
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Jan 25 2004, 10:05 PM)
well, in actuality, the balancing factor in this is that if an Initiate wants to MC into Wilder, they have to purchase the Eliminate Block feat. And if a Wilder wants to MC into Initiate, then he looses a bunch of weaves (you have to use the Initiate's chart, no matter what). And if a wilder MC's into initiate, unless she gets trained again by a wilder on her own and outside a Tower, then you HAVE to proceed through Initiate. likewise with an initiate MCing into wilder. It's not completely balanced, but it's better than you guys are making it out to be.

Well, if you purchase the Eliminate Block Feat and take 1 level Initiate and 1 level Wilder you actually gain a Feat. Two Talents and Two Affinities for the price of Eliminate Block. Sounds like a good deal. Plus Multi-classing gets you +5 to overchannel and FST while Initiate gets you +4 to Weavesight. Regardless, you go by the Initiate Weave progression, but is that really a bad thing? I mean, yeah a Wilder gets more lower level Weaves, but an Initiate gets more higher level weaves - Easier to overchannel lower weaves anyway with the Wilder bonus.

*shrug* Seems quite geared to being multiclassed.

I appriciate the assitance on thisfrom everyone. smile.gif
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wolfgaidin
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Jan 25 2004, 10:05 PM)
And if a wilder MC's into initiate, unless she gets trained again by a wilder on her own and outside a Tower, then you HAVE to proceed through Initiate. likewise with an initiate MCing into wilder.

I forgot to comment on this. I don't recall anywhere in the WoTRPG or the errata that states you can't take Wilder levels if you MC from Wilder to Initiate.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (wolfgaidin @ Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM)
QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Jan 25 2004, 10:05 PM)
well, in actuality, the balancing factor in this is that if an Initiate wants to MC into Wilder, they have to purchase the Eliminate Block feat. And if a Wilder wants to MC into Initiate, then he looses a bunch of weaves (you have to use the Initiate's chart, no matter what). And if a wilder MC's into initiate, unless she gets trained again by a wilder on her own and outside a Tower, then you HAVE to proceed through Initiate. likewise with an initiate MCing into wilder. It's not completely balanced, but it's better than you guys are making it out to be.

Well, if you purchase the Eliminate Block Feat and take 1 level Initiate and 1 level Wilder you actually gain a Feat. Two Talents and Two Affinities for the price of Eliminate Block. Sounds like a good deal. Plus Multi-classing gets you +5 to overchannel and FST while Initiate gets you +4 to Weavesight. Regardless, you go by the Initiate Weave progression, but is that really a bad thing? I mean, yeah a Wilder gets more lower level Weaves, but an Initiate gets more higher level weaves - Easier to overchannel lower weaves anyway with the Wilder bonus.

*shrug* Seems quite geared to being multiclassed.

I appriciate the assitance on thisfrom everyone. smile.gif

For one, it doesn't grant you an extra affinity and talent. If it did, I personally would NOT allow that. In fact, i think it's assumed that you'd know MC wouldn't give you another talent and affinity. If not, like i said, at least in my games MCing won't give you a bonus talent and affinity.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 26 2004, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE (wolfgaidin @ Jan 26 2004, 03:15 PM)
QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Jan 25 2004, 10:05 PM)
And if a wilder MC's into initiate, unless she gets trained again by a wilder on her own and outside a Tower, then you HAVE to proceed through Initiate. likewise with an initiate MCing into wilder.

I forgot to comment on this. I don't recall anywhere in the WoTRPG or the errata that states you can't take Wilder levels if you MC from Wilder to Initiate.

It says something about that in the Multiclassing part at the end of Prophecies of the Dragon.
Anyhow, it makes sense. If you're a wilder and pulled into one of the four traditions and taught, unless you go out for years and start learning instinctive weaving again, or taught by a non-tradition wilder, then you can't go back to wilder.
I agree, it's still powerful, but not that bad. Besides, a wilder MCing into initiate looses weaves and has to put up with mentors, while initiates MCing into wilder (as noted in Prophecies, very unlikely) must spend a feat for Eliminate Block before gettign 1 class in wilder. Furthermore, taking a level of Wilder does not absolve you of your Mentor. It's pretty limiting when you have some mean Aes Sedai always harping behind your back.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 12:11 AM
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This is slightly off topic but it is about multiclassing so I decided to post it. I haven't read the errata in a long time but it seems to be (maybe I just missed it) that the RPG book doesn't say anything about a 20% exp penalty for multiclass characters when you have more than a 4 level difference between any two classes. Is this purposeful and in effect for balance or did I miss it?


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drothgery
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 12:12 AM
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Heck, I still maintain the wilder class should never have existed, as it tries to create dichotomies that aren't really there.


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wolfgaidin
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Jan 26 2004, 10:02 PM)
For one, it doesn't grant you an extra affinity and talent. If it did, I personally would NOT allow that. In fact, i think it's assumed that you'd know MC wouldn't give you another talent and affinity. If not, like i said, at least in my games MCing won't give you a bonus talent and affinity.

Actually, the official errata from the game designer does:

"When a channeler multi-classes, they get all the benefits of the new class (including a second talent and affinity). When benefits conflict (like overchanneling), the character uses the best option (which, in the case of overchanneling, would be wilder's ability.). They also suffer the restrictions of the other classes (a Wilder multiclassing into initiate would have to join one of the four initiate traditions - which can mean gaining a mentor)."

I posted all the errata in the 1st post.
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LuciusT
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 12:39 AM
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QUOTE (Entropic_existence @ Jan 27 2004, 12:11 AM)
This is slightly off topic but it is about multiclassing so I decided to post it. I haven't read the errata in a long time but it seems to be (maybe I just missed it) that the RPG book doesn't say anything about a 20% exp penalty for multiclass characters when you have more than a 4 level difference between any two classes. Is this purposeful and in effect for balance or did I miss it?

This is deliberate. Like d20 Modern, d20 WoT offers no penalty for multiclassing.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (wolfgaidin @ Jan 26 2004, 07:19 PM)
Actually, the official errata from the game designer does:

"When a channeler multi-classes, they get all the benefits of the new class (including a second talent and affinity). When benefits conflict (like overchanneling), the character uses the best option (which, in the case of overchanneling, would be wilder's ability.). They also suffer the restrictions of the other classes (a Wilder multiclassing into initiate would have to join one of the four initiate traditions - which can mean gaining a mentor)."

I posted all the errata in the 1st post.

Hrm... well, in my games, i'm most definately not allowing a new affinity and talent. That's just too much.

Then again, this is errata from the same man who said that Aiel algai'd'siswai are proficient with shields, but get no bonuses from them. dry.gif I really don't think Charles really put all he had into this, or by the time he answered some of the questions, just really didn't care anymore.

Note also that according to the errata/faq, an ogier just needs to take a level of armsman or woodsman at 2nd level (if he took the other at 1st) to overcome racial penalties of no martial weapons.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 03:06 AM
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QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Jan 26 2004, 10:02 PM)
For one, it doesn't grant you an extra affinity and talent. If it did, I personally would NOT allow that. In fact, i think it's assumed that you'd know MC wouldn't give you another talent and affinity. If not, like i said, at least in my games MCing won't give you a bonus talent and affinity.

This is from the FAQ. Straight from the lips of Charles Ryan.

QUOTE
Q: How do multi classed Initiate/Wilders work?
A: A channeler who multiclasses between the initiate and wilder classes must use Table 3-5: Initiate Weaves for determining her number of weaves. The character's level, for determining the number of weaves, is equal to her total channeling level (in other words, the total of her levels in initiate and wilder).

However, characters with levels in both wilder and initiate gain bonus weaves from Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

A couple of notes. In a few cases, a character who multiclasses will actually lose some channeling ability. For example, a 3rd-level wilder can cast 1 3rd-level weave per day. If she adds a level in initiate (and thus gets the weaves per day of a 4th-level initiate), she looses the ability to cast 3rd-level weaves. Unfortunately, setbacks like these are part of the cost of learning a new class.

Also, the rules do not require a character to multi-class. A wilder who goes to Tar Valon can continue to advance as a wilder if she wants. It's perfectly possible for a powerful Aes Sedai to have levels only in wilder, with no initiate or Aes Sedai prestige class levels

In order for an initiate to multiclass into wilder (meaning they have no previous levels of wilder), they must have [or take] the Eliminate Block feat.

When a channeler multi-classes, they get all the benefits of the new class (including a second talent and affinity). When benefits conflict (like overchanneling), the character uses the best option (which, in the case of overchanneling, would be wilder's ability.). They also suffer the restrictions of the other classes (a Wilder multiclassing into initiate would have to join one of the four initiate traditions - which can mean gaining a mentor).


Although many people don't give the new affinity and talent as a HOUSE RULE, the OFFICIAL RULE is that they do gain them. Fair or not, that is up to you as a GM.


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