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Call of the Horn | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother |
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 06:13
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![]() Great Fang ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 551 Member No.: 20 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
A few questions about the Heroes of the Horn: How are they chosen? Did/does the Creator just say "You're now a Hero of the Horn?" Or did they all come from the same era, like the Forsaken? Could there be a channeling Hero of the Horn? Is that possible? I'm not asking if there IS one, I'm just asking if that's possible. What ones have been named in various sources? There are the obvious ones like Birgitte and Gaidal Cain, but are there some named in, say, the BBoBA? Thanks! -------------------- This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai.
Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as
wolves. Current Projects: Encounters Handbook Tome of the One Power Homepage: Town Center Productions It's funny! Please check out the funny short films and sketches, such as Pink Avenger, the Sockies, and Kenny getting shot with a paintball gun. Check out my Wheel of Time RPG Website! It's not as funny as Town Center Productions, but it's updated frequently, so check it out often. Newest Features: Alternate Rules: Sanity Towns and Locals: The Tuatha'an I My TRW WoT Yahoo! Group! This is where I let the people know when I update my WoT site and also let them know what's coming up. |
drothgery |
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 07:02
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 180 Member No.: 25 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Artur Hawkwing tells Hurin that others have joined
their number, over time (implying that Hurin could become a Hero), so I
think it's safe to say that they were not all bound to the horn at the
same time. -------------------- |
Niveus |
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 09:41
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 192 Member No.: 171 Joined: 4-July 04 ![]() |
mat is most definitly a hero of the horm not only did
he blow it but he also uses it to fill in the gaps of his
memory perrin probably is too as to how you get linked to it good question to get permenantly linked to it a person must have done somthing of note while in the service of light and never wavered in this respect until the end of thier days not quite right but close i think -------------------- ![]() |
Two Rivers Wolfbrother |
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 10:51
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![]() Great Fang ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 551 Member No.: 20 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I see. Interesting. Could a channeler be a Hero? -------------------- This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai.
Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as
wolves. Current Projects: Encounters Handbook Tome of the One Power Homepage: Town Center Productions It's funny! Please check out the funny short films and sketches, such as Pink Avenger, the Sockies, and Kenny getting shot with a paintball gun. Check out my Wheel of Time RPG Website! It's not as funny as Town Center Productions, but it's updated frequently, so check it out often. Newest Features: Alternate Rules: Sanity Towns and Locals: The Tuatha'an I My TRW WoT Yahoo! Group! This is where I let the people know when I update my WoT site and also let them know what's coming up. |
Aleshandre |
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 04:54
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 268 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Rand is most definitely a Hero of the Horn. Artur
Hawkwing recognized him as Lews Therin, so the Dragon/Dragon Reborn is a
Hero of the Horn, which means that yes, channelers can become heroes of
the Horn. -------------------- |
Niveus |
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 08:44
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 192 Member No.: 171 Joined: 4-July 04 ![]() |
I would say rand is only the dragon reborn his legend is seperate from the horn of valor's as lewis therin would be far more famous/infamous then artur hawking was/is if the horn was tied to rand it would have been feared rather then praised but I agree channlers could be tied to the horn -------------------- ![]() | ||
Entropic_existence |
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 09:10
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 226 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Actually the Dragon Reborn is only feared because
a)He's a Male Channeler and ![]() ![]() Mat does not gain his memories from the Horn, his memories come from the 'finn when he went through the doorway Ter'angreal in Rhuidean. They filled the gaps in his memory as he requested. Robert Jordan has hinted this will be explained more or at least come into play in Book 11, Knife of Dreams. When Mat blows the Horn to drive off the Seanchan at Falme there were little more than 100 there. From the sound of things people can become bound to the Wheel as a Hero of the Horn but it requires more than mere bravery....so you have to be a hero ![]() -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Aleshandre |
Posted: Aug 11 2004, 10:12
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 268 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
First, the fact that Rand al Thor looks nothing like the descriptions of LTT makes it impossible for Artur Hawkwing to recognize him as the Dragon, short of recognizing the soul. Second, the Dragon was and is tied to the Wheel to be reborn again and again as needed by the pattern, so that makes him a Hero of the Horn. No others are said to be tied to the pattern. The Forsaken may be reborn as well, though that could be lies on the part of the Forsaken to try and sway Rand and co. It is also possible that each of the Forsaken who is spun out over and over were at one time Heroes of the Horn, but because they hadn't died, they were not called by the Horn when Mat blew it. Ishamael said that he had fought the Dragon over and over, but remember that he was also familiar with Portal Stones, so it may simply be that he knew the possible outcomes of each battle against the Dragon. He may not actually be spun out more than the once. -------------------- | ||
Chiz |
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 05:49
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![]() Newbie ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5 Member No.: 137 Joined: 24-April 04 ![]() |
When Matt blew the horn the first time didn't Artur
satat to Rand that they had ridden to many battles together and there was
only one thing missing from the one they were about to have- the banner.
This I believe shows that at least rand/Lew's spirit is attached to the
horn. They were from different eras right? Also in order to get tied don't
you have to be ta'veran? Artur was one of the strongest besides ltt. Just
some thoughts I had. -------------------- Apendix II is a
LIE!!!!! |
Zarozynia |
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 08:59
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![]() Seer of Darkness ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 418 Member No.: 131 Joined: 10-April 04 ![]() |
I dont buy into the Rand/Horner thing, and here is
why: if Rand is bound to the horn, why does he need a banner? I personally think that he is a seperate soul, something more, the Christ figure of the peice. After all, there can be only one. Likewise, Ishmael seems to be different as well. He says something, I think, about the battle between the dragon and the dark one going on from the beginning, and his belief that he has been there as well. Am I making this up or misremembering? Not certain. But the battle between the Dragon and the Dark One is older than the horn. So how can they be connected? -------------------- Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing
experiment in writing/illustration/mythology Photographia Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource * Developing a Character: The Aiel * Amadicia Background: Complete with Whitecloak PC and new backgound feat * Moonwarrior - A Wolfbrother feat in the main Feats section |
Aleshandre |
Posted: Aug 12 2004, 03:50
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 268 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Artur Hawkwing said it himself, "We answer to the
Horn, but we can only ride after whoever carries the Banner." Even if
Rand/LTT was called by the Horn, before being spun out normally, he would
have to follow whoever carried the Banner. The Heroes of the Horn are
bound to the Horn and the Dragon Banner.
-------------------- |
Axel |
Posted: Aug 13 2004, 03:03
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Freelance HTML coder (hint Aleshandre) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 332 Member No.: 54 Joined: 23-January 04 ![]() |
Why don't we simplify it. Ok? For simplicity's sake I
will make the following assumptions: 1. Everybody is bound to the Wheel- The Wheel spins out souls which become threads of the pattern. Everyone is reborn even those who forsake the Light, the Forsaken are destined to be reborn. 2. Only Heroes are bound in their way- Most souls are set on hold until being reborn. Heroes are kept handy in Tel'aran'rhiod so that they can be quickly summoned. Like the minutemen always keeping their muskets at the ready near the door, the Heroes are always available should the Call come. Unfortunately this makes them vulnerable in a special way, as Moghedien showed. 3. New Heroes can be bound- Those who are involved in major battles or are incredibly important people and demonstrate not only bravery but also skill can be bound to the Horn. They are then spun out as the Heroes are, always to be available should the horn be blown. -------------------- Honorary Paladin of the Lawful Naughty If I seem to hate the d20 system, its only because I hate the system. Actually I just hate 3e, its biased me against the system. I rather like WoT. |
Entropic_existence |
Posted: Aug 13 2004, 03:32
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 226 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Souls, aka Threads, are reused. I know your point and
perhaps it is simply semantics on my part, but I dislike saying all souls
are bound to the Wheel, given that being "bound to the Wheel" is the exact
wording the Heroes of the Horn use to describe their
circumstances. The Horn of Valere was old even before the Age of Legends, perhaps at one point it is created but remember that even if it is destroyed in one Age it will be remade at some point. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Axel |
Posted: Aug 15 2004, 06:55
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Freelance HTML coder (hint Aleshandre) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 332 Member No.: 54 Joined: 23-January 04 ![]() |
By the circular nature of the Wheel the Horn must be
destroyed and remade. And all the souls who were bound to it will be
reborn and rebound. -------------------- Honorary Paladin of the Lawful Naughty If I seem to hate the d20 system, its only because I hate the system. Actually I just hate 3e, its biased me against the system. I rather like WoT. |
Guest |
Posted: Aug 16 2004, 05:30
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Unregistered ![]() |
Forgive me for still nitpicking this point, but
according to the collective oppinion of the board members, anybody who is
reborn to the wheel directly must be a hero of the horn? Then Ishmael is one, too. In The Great Hunt Rand and Ishmael have a conversation while they are in Falme about how their souls have battled each other, or faught beside each other, since the beginning of time. that works with Rand being reborn forever, but also means that Ishmael was as well, and that he always is a champion of the dark one which to me means that he is also reborn to the wheel as the same soul. I bring this up to point out that to call Rand a hero of the horn seems to belittle who he is. In fact, one might suspect that whomever created the horn of valere did so in the image of the dragon, but Rand, being the champion of light, should be seen as more than purely a hero of the horn. Just because he is recognized by Artur Hawkwing does not mean that he must be a hero, because if the heroes are bound to the horn and follow the banner of the dragon they would have met his soul before for other reasons. |
Axel |
Posted: Aug 17 2004, 05:49
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Freelance HTML coder (hint Aleshandre) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 332 Member No.: 54 Joined: 23-January 04 ![]() |
That's kinda what I said. Everyone is bound to the
Wheel to be reborn. -------------------- Honorary Paladin of the Lawful Naughty If I seem to hate the d20 system, its only because I hate the system. Actually I just hate 3e, its biased me against the system. I rather like WoT. |
Aleshandre |
Posted: Aug 17 2004, 07:06
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![]() Wielder of Callandor, Master and Commander of the Ashaman ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 268 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
As pointed out earlier, Ishamael is mad, so we can't
take his word at face value. To further cloud that arguement, he was also
claiming to be the Dark One at that time. It is possible that he was bound
to the Wheel at one time, but given two facts (namely that he never died
at the end of the AoL and that he is linked to the DO), it is possible
that either a) his tie was severed or B) since he hasn't died (without
being given a new body by the Dark One), his sould can't be called by the
Horn, since it isn't in Tel'aran'rhiod any more than the Dragon can. RJ
also said that once the Last Battle came to a draw, because the Dragon
fought for the Dark One, so if the Dragon can be the champion of the Light
and fight for the Dark One, then a Hero of the Horn can still fight for
the Dark One and when he dies, still be called by the Horn of
Valere. This post has been edited by Aleshandre on Aug 17 2004, 07:08 PM -------------------- |
Llewin |
Posted: Aug 18 2004, 01:19
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 178 Member No.: 138 Joined: 25-April 04 ![]() |
If I am not mistaken, Ishamael never actually said he was the Dark One. He called himself Baalzamon which again, if my memory serves, is a trolloc word meaning heart of the dark and which the denizens of randland equate with a name for the dark one. However, that sounds like a pretty good name for Shaitan's right hand man.
In support of this statement, How about we take a good look at Artur Hawkwing. Granted the last time he was spun in to the pattern he wasnt exactly following the dark one on purpose but by the end of his life, we are told by the self-same Ishamael mentioned above that he was doing the dark one's will in beginning and continuing his attack and hatred on aes sedai. All of that said, I was under the impression that only people of certain special quality were tied to the wheel and reused as the pattern had need of them and that the everyday run of the mill sort lived one life and died never to be reborn. | ||||
Axel |
Posted: Aug 18 2004, 03:39
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Freelance HTML coder (hint Aleshandre) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 332 Member No.: 54 Joined: 23-January 04 ![]() |
No, that can't work. We know that as the Wheel turns
the Ages repeat themselves. The only way they can do that is if the
important people are reborn to repeat their mistakes, but there's no
reason to think that important figures are Heroes. Also we know that the
mythology of the 3rd Age holds that people who walk in the Light will be
reborn. It follows that indeed everyone is reborn which is the source of
the mythos. Besides we know that RJ tried to work in physics as much as possible, so I propose a Law of Conservation of Souls: A soul can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change forms. One final note: The Creator does not interfere with the world. Therefore the Horn was created by men. If that is the case it must be destroyed in order to be remade. If the Horn is destroyed and only it is what binds souls to the Wheel then it follows that all the Heroes would be lost when it was destroyed. However we know that these Heroes must be reborn. We also know from multiple sources that they have been through many lives and know each other well. (Ishmael [twice], Hawkwing, Birgitte) -------------------- Honorary Paladin of the Lawful Naughty If I seem to hate the d20 system, its only because I hate the system. Actually I just hate 3e, its biased me against the system. I rather like WoT. |
Kakita Aramoro |
Posted: Aug 18 2004, 08:46
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 179 Member No.: 74 Joined: 1-February 04 ![]() |
but what of balefire? | ||
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