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> Revised Fiery Sword
Primal Paladin22
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 11:58 PM
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Fiery Sword
[Air, Fire, Spirit] (Common)
Level: 3
Casting Time: 1 action
Range:Touch
Effect:Creates weapon of Power
Duration:Concentration
Saving Throw:None


Weaver creates manifestation of the one power which is used to make a touch attack for 1d10 dmg(16-20 *3). The weave alo acts as a vorpal weapon, so that on a roll of 20 the weave severs the opponent's head. The weapon cleaves stone, metal and any other non power wrought material it touches.


I know it is dry but you get the point.


Peace
J

This post has been edited by Primal Paladin22 on May 1 2004, 02:41 AM


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Jonathan
Posted: May 1 2004, 02:45 AM
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I call bullshit.

You constantly talk about wanting the rules to be like the novels, well read the damn novels. I'll help you, Book 4: The Shadows Rising, just after Mat and Rand leave Rhuidean and that guy throws the spear at Mat.

Long story short: Spear flies, Rand channels, Rand blocks, spear lands in the sand intact. It's not a lightsaber, it's a sword.

-Jonathan


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 1 2004, 03:49 AM
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Primal... it sounds like you are making one of those "katanas" I was talking about...

The only changes that I've made to this weave is I this:

Level 2 : +1 to attack
Level 3 : +2 to attack
Level 4 : +3 to attack

I left the damage as is in the RPG.

I gave the bonuses to attack for these reasons. If the character has a masterpiece or powerwrought weapon, why would he opt to have a less a chance to hit. Also (my main reason), Rand has a powerwrought weapon, but constantly prefers the fiery sword. On several occasions he mentions that the fiery sword is easier for him to wield because it is like it is part of him. To me that translates into a bonus to attack. (If you want an example read in The Dragon Reborn, when the darkfriends attack Rand while he is on his way to Tear. The part where he cuts the lady's face off with Thistle Down on the Whirlwind, then makes the corpses of the darkfriends bow to him using arms of air. Yeah that part was cool.)

I agree with Jonathan, I find this version, not only unbalanced but out of line with the books.


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Jonathan
Posted: May 1 2004, 06:07 AM
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QUOTE (Sharn Penndroen @ Apr 30 2004, 08:49 PM)
I gave the bonuses to attack for these reasons.  If the character has a masterpiece or powerwrought weapon, why would he opt to have a less a chance to hit.  Also (my main reason), Rand has a powerwrought weapon, but constantly prefers the fiery sword.  On several occasions he mentions that the fiery sword is easier for him to wield because it is like it is part of him.  To me that translates into a bonus to attack.  (If you want an example read in The Dragon Reborn, when the darkfriends attack Rand while he is on his way to Tear.  The part where he cuts the lady's face off with Thistle Down on the Whirlwind, then makes the corpses of the darkfriends bow to him using arms of air.  Yeah that part was cool.)

Forget about what items they have, that is like saying Aiel rage.

Instead, think along the lines "because the channeled version of a weapon is 'masterfully crafted' by the one power, therefore it isn't subject to the material flaws of normal metal/wood."

I agree that there should be a bonus, but I didn't agree with your reasoning.

-Jonathan

P.S.: A reason to opt for a "lower chance to hit" is because it does so much more damage. Power Attack is a great feat, and if I had a Masterpiece Longsword, that is +2 (over my typical total mod) and 1d8+Str damage (one-handed) verses 2d8+Str damage (one-handed). Power Attack feat can't cover the difference in damage with a net 2 difference to hit.

This post has been edited by Jonathan on May 1 2004, 06:13 AM


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MagusRogue
Posted: May 1 2004, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (Jonathan @ May 1 2004, 01:07 AM)
Forget about what items they have, that is like saying Aiel rage.

hey, that isn;t a slam against me, is it? *puffs up*


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 2 2004, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE
Long story short: Spear flies, Rand channels, Rand blocks, spear lands in the sand intact. It's not a lightsaber, it's a sword.


This does not disprove my position, my combat challenged friend. Everyone knows that a skilled swordsman would not parry a thrusting attack with the edge of his weapon, he would use the flat. What do you think the sunder feat represents. What about when Rand took on the Darkhounds, and cut them to pieces. I have not tried it but I think that even with a funtional katana it would be hard to cut a grown wolf in half. Then there is the part where Lan asks him why he started carring a sword again and he said that using the Power Wrought Blade would not be fair. I don't expect you to use it just because I posted it and I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the one given in the book. I just wanted to bounce this off the community.
Oh yeah, try not to curse on my threads.


Peace
J


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 2 2004, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (Jonathan @ May 1 2004, 06:07 AM)
I agree that there should be a bonus, but I didn't agree with your reasoning.

I don't think you do. The fact that Rand prefers to use the One Power Sword instead of a masterfully crafted sword indicate that the Fiery Sword is even more easy to wield than a masterfully crafted weapon. I don't see the error in that logic. Rand says it is easier to handle than a super great sword that he is carrying around. Makes sense to me, bud.

Primal, I think that the fact that the sword does so much damage reflects the incident that you mention about cleaving Darkhounds in half. It isn't really that it ignores any "armor" that the darkhounds have.


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MagusRogue
Posted: May 2 2004, 08:46 PM
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The only weave i see capable of ignoring hardness is Cutting Lines. Sorry, PP22, don't like it, nope, not at all.


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Jonathan
Posted: May 2 2004, 11:19 PM
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Assumptions:
1. Ignore the intent of the novels.
2. Trying to "buff" the weave.

Before you had 2d8, 2d10, or 2d12 damage with the same crit rules and damage type of the original weapon. So assuming a Longsword that is "2d10" slashing 19-20/x2

PP22's version: 1d10, 16-20/x3. What does this mean? It is an attempt to disguise a strong weave as a weak one. Channelers have a Half BAB already, (however a Wilder can have Fiery Sword at level 2) so by levels 6 they are outstripped by most martial PC's (+3 difference). So a Channeler will eventually only be hitting on their higher rolls.

So assuming a channeler needs a 16 to hit, then every hit threatens a critical. So... Channeler hits 25% (liberal assumption), and then 25% of those hits are confirmed criticals, and (if you use the instant death rules), 25% of those confirmed crits are instant deaths.

What does this equate to?

3/16ths of attacks do 1d10+Str damage
3/64ths of attacks do 3d10+3*Str damage
1/64th of attacks do instant kills.

This ignores the Vorpal feature. (Which still requires the player to not only threaten, but to confirm) Chance of Vorpal effect if you need a 16 to hit is: 1/20 * 1/4 or 1/80 of rolls.

Wait.... that is less than half the attacks at 3 times damage. Thus it is actually WEAKER than having a consistant 2dX damage weave. (.5 times 1x damage + .5 times 3x damage = 2x damage)

Regardless of RJ's intent, making a weapon that relies on criticals is still bad.

As a Munchkin, my opinion of Fiery Sword is that it is most useful at low levels (2 to 4) when the Attack Bonus gap between channeler and warrior is smallest. By level 5 the channeler should have enough weaves per day to be able to find alternative ways of fighting. Blade of Fire is more useful at higher levels (it is basically a blow torch, right?

In fact, the main draw of Fiery Sword is that you can tie it off and use fewer weaves in an encounter. (Thus reducing the dangers of Overchanneling at low levels.)

-Jonathan


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 3 2004, 12:24 AM
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Now we are talking. First let me say again that I post on this board for two reasons. One is to practice my typing, the second is to have peaple comment on my post. The third I must sheepishly admit is that I like all you guys.

It is ok if Jon-jon continues to think I am the winged spawn of satan as long as he does not call me names personally. It is ok for him to rip my posts, as long as he does not mention censoring me or uses overt profanity. I don't mind.

I really like the weave this way because as a player I love critical hits and vorpal. That is the chief reason beind making this version of the weave. I shared it because, well I don't know why. I had not started a new thread in a while and I missed the discorse.

As for the issue of BAB I am thinking that channelers who have multi-classed into a combat oriented class will be the only ones likely to use it very much. I basically agree with everything you all have said, I just like the crit. and vorpal. Maybe I can drop the touch attack part.


Peace
J


PS Thanks Jon, for not being a but-gnome this time. tongue.gif biggrin.gif


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Entropic_existence
Posted: May 3 2004, 03:13 AM
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Personally I think Fiery Sword, as written in the RPG, is fine;however, I do like Sharn's bonuses to it. In my opinion the fiery sword can be "better" fro the channeler to wield because it quite literally is an extension of himself. I mean when you think about it metaphysically he pulled the necessary flows together and with his mind shaped the weapon to his specifications. That alone would confer some intimate familiarity with the weapon. Of course in my game I leave the weave as is, doesn't seem to be broken to me and I'm not a fan of adding in the vorpal effect to the wheel of time and don't see the need to give it a bonus to criticals in my opinion. But that is just my opinion.


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Deryl
Posted: May 3 2004, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE (Primal Paladin22 @ May 3 2004, 12:24 AM)

I really like the weave this way because as a player I love critical hits and vorpal. That is the chief reason beind making this version of the weave. I shared it because, well I don't know why. I had not started a new thread in a while and I missed the discorse.

As for the issue of BAB I am thinking that channelers who have multi-classed into a combat oriented class will be the only ones likely to use it very much. I basically agree with everything you all have said, I just like the crit. and vorpal. Maybe I can drop the touch attack part.

Well the problem with critical hits and vorpal effects is, that it can be used against the players too. I think it sucks big time for a player to get decapitated by a lucky dice roll. It does not matter how slim the chance for this effect is. At some point an enemy will roll it. In the games I played, we are very reluctant in the use of critical hit systems. As great as it sounds, it usually makes combat more deadly for the players. And in the WoT world you do not have a way to raise the dead. So think twice before introducing weaves like that.


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Zifnab
Posted: May 3 2004, 01:23 PM
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I too like Sharn's bonuses to hit, and would otherwise leave it as-is.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: May 3 2004, 04:36 PM
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Yea, you wouldn't believe how many times I've dropped players like a sack of potatoes because a low level baddy pulled a critical and rolled good damage. Good thing I keep track of their hitpoints as well so I can fudge the numebrs a little and make sure they get some medical aid before they die on me smile.gif I don't like killing players randomly in the middle of regular fights. My players pretty much only are under serious threat of death when they do something stupid. But rolling those criticals once in a while and dropping them to down and bleeding keeps them on their toes.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 3 2004, 04:54 PM
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The reasons presented here are exactly why I like crits. They make combat more real to me. For instance, the ko punch in a boxing match is usually as much a product of the punchie's motion as the puncher's skill. A crit means tht the other guy moved into the blow and that you were able to capitalize on his momentary laps of judgment. I realize that that is not always the case but it usually is.

I like the danger of crits. There is nothing like the look on someones face when you say critical threat. By the same token it is always cool to see the killer instinct practically oosing off my buddies wife if she roles a critical. The looks up with this like, sense of wonder and verily giggles as she role to confirm the crit. It really is kind of scary. Heck I am the same way. laugh.gif


Peace
J


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Axel
Posted: May 3 2004, 09:22 PM
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ugh, I can't stand critical hits. Yes I realize they make a certain degree of sense but then we hit the fun aspect. When somebody hits a char. with a critical it's all over which really isn't fair to the player. I just made it natural 20=2 x max damage which is easier to figure and far less lethal.


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Zarozynia
Posted: May 3 2004, 10:19 PM
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wow Axel, I have to say that I totally disagree with you there. Yes, it sucks if your character gets hit once and dies, but...that IS realistic. And I am speaking from playing a StarWars noble that got killed by a blaster pistol in one hit. I cried...literally, she was my pride and joy. But she also started a blaster pistol fight with some storm troopers, and these things happen.

I think that crits need to exist so that there is the possability of death, without that, what fun is there in playing? You cant make real decisions for a character when they have no fear of death, and imminent death...not death after you've killed most of a fist of trollocs. I think that it is incredibly unbalancing to have characters with 50+ wound points and no way of killing them. How many times would you have to hit them, well the average wheel of time weapon deals 1d6 so you're looking at almost nine times, and that's if you roll well on your damage.

I feel so strongly about this that I changed my game to a vit/wound point system like StarWars to make it easier to kill somebody, because then every crit goes automatically to wound points, but without the modifier.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 3 2004, 10:44 PM
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I had forgotten that about the wound point system. I think I will change over to it to.

Peace
J


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Zarozynia
Posted: May 4 2004, 01:10 AM
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The vit/wound system is working out great so far, so far, of course, being the last five months which we have now been playing the game. (Wow...I cant believe that it has already been that long) Remember with the vit/wounds that non-heroic characters often dont even get wound points so that they would automatically die on a critical hit, another thing that I like about the system.

I really enjoy the idea of my borderlander swooping in and killing a trolloc in one hit, which he would be able to do by the books.


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MagusRogue
Posted: May 4 2004, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (Zarozynia @ May 3 2004, 08:10 PM)
Remember with the vit/wounds that non-heroic characters often dont even get wound points so that they would automatically die on a critical hit, another thing that I like about the system.

sorry to correct you hun, but in Vit/Wound, Wound points are the ONLY thing npc classes get. they don't get vit points. thus crits on them don't do anything. then again, they also die insanely fast, no matter their level, so that makes up for it. also, in a vit/wound system, might wanna X the commoner class like star wars did.


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