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> Cuendillar Armour, yes thats right heartstone :)
Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 13 2004, 02:12 PM
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Z, I was never saying that you would never see cuendillar armor in an AoL setting. I was simply trying to extrapolate from the pattern we see in combat, and from the things that we have seen as left overs from the AoL. We have seen a whole suit of fancloth, but we have not seen a cuendillar suit of armor. Not saying that it doesn't exist, but we know that whole suits of fancloth exist. Just saying that if I were a soldier in the AoL I would rather try not to be seen at all. Of course you could say, why not cuendillar armor with fancloth over that. *throws up hands* I give up. smile.gif


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 13 2004, 06:37 PM
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OK a few things:

First Quil, quick question to you. Assuming that we are talking about two different types of creations, one being the Gholam of RJ's description the other being something more akin to the traditional Golam of mythology/D&D...do you have a problem with the general concept being added in to the age of legends campaign setting... EG a Ter-angreal creation which uses something akin to the weave Rand used in the Stone of Tear to make a table and chairs walk and Egwene piddle herself?

That said, I am *NOT* in support of a construct made of cuendillar. I agree that it is an incredibly unbalanced idea.

2nd. Cuendillar armor. In the Age of Legends I'd imagine any body protection made was more along the lines of the armor we give our shock troops today, *not* medieval armor. With that in mind why dont we take a look at that armor... It covers the most important area, the torso, fairly well, also some protection on legs and arms but by far not complete coverage... If it is truely impervious to any normal sort of damage then we're left with a few things to consider... Firstly, what about the rest of the body which is unprotected by this superthin heartstone armor? Secondly, if this stuff is so resistant to any sort of energy or kinesthetic force does that mean it does little to nothing to protect the wearer from the sheer force of say...a warhammer blow to the chest...or what about a modern day bullet.... part of the reason the armor our troops and police officers wear today works is because it partially absorbs the force of a bullet strike, however even with that it isnt uncommon for a broken rib or atleast severe brusing to occur... If heartstone doesnt absorb kinesthetic force and simple transfers it to whatever its touching then it provides no real protection for blunt-force trauma... now energy attacks might be different though... I'm not sure...how do we think this stuff protects itself from kinesthetic damage?

Ok now, cuendillar armor in the age of illusions (rand's world) would be most likely more along the lines of typical medieval armoring, which we have seen all soliders and guardsmen wearing... meaning big, bulky, heavy, covering most of the body...

Now, what about game balance? Z, is it necessary for the armor to be balanced by a direct counterpart/counterweave/counterspell/countsomething? smile.gif

Certainly in the third age I agree with Quill who said that the cultural uproar over a suit of Cuendillar armor would be a signifigant counter. I can absolutely see people trying to steal it, kill the bearer, armies going after such a great and rich treasure, etc. even apart from that you have the problem with kinesthetic transfer... I think we all agreed that for a suit of heartstone armor to be usable it would need to be made of rather thin iron, thinner than that normally worn for typical steel or iron armor... doesnt thinner mean less absorbtion of force?

Just some thoughts.

Oh yeah and i do want to re-iterate... i dont think the idea of ter'angreal 'robots'/'golams'/constructs is at all counter-intuitive, however since cuendillar apparently cant be moved or altered once it is created I dont know that it would work... things like rock, iron, even ice if you wanted can realistically be set to constantly manipulate through the one power... cuendillar cant.
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Aleshandre
Posted: Oct 13 2004, 09:39 PM
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I would suggest that instead of cuendillar armor, use Power Wrought armor. This would be less easily identifiable as being odd and more in keeping with the WoT world and setting. It also already has handy rules via weaves and the existing rules for PW weapons that would be easy to use by extension for armor. Also, since PW weapons are more difficult to destroy, it also means that PW armor would be the same. PW armor would be lighter than normal armor, because you would need less steel than normal to make something with about 2-3 times the strength and it eliminates the need to create additional weaves, etc. to counterbalance it. It would be akin to magical +1 - +3, etc. armor from D&D, but would have a built in reason to be used in the WoT setting.


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Niveus
Posted: Oct 14 2004, 01:31 AM
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lol wow this is never going to be excepted i see well here is a suggested revision


thin Cuendillar film over a higly phyiscally absorbant material ie rubber this would give you a simualr affect to kevlar but much better slashing/piercing damge would be completly negated by the Cuendillar and blunt damage would be moslty negated by the rubber but a complete suit of Cuendillar is unpractical but soly covering the vitala would make sense so rahter then complete negation have it prevent critcals and also grant a eqp bonus to saves versus the one power


so pick a modern armour type from d20 modern urban arcana or d20 future and add these two properties to it 3/4 of the defence bonus is added to the reflex saves versus the one power and it can negate critical hits

as for golems why do they have to be a solid mass of mettle why not a armoures shell on a standard golem granting the above affects to it

as to why a golem would have to worry about critical hits the warforged race from eberon is a living golem and has the same vulnerabilities to crits as every other player race

now for weapons we have to be less simplar i would suggest the 3/4 rule as well it ignores 3/4 of the amrours defence and it ignores 3/4 of the damage reduction aswell sure its a little wonky but its remains "KISS"

niv

This post has been edited by Niveus on Oct 14 2004, 01:36 AM


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Quillion
Posted: Oct 14 2004, 02:29 AM
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"Assuming that we are talking about two different types of creations, one being the Gholam of RJ's description the other being something more akin to the traditional Golam of mythology/D&D...do you have a problem with the general concept being added in to the age of legends campaign setting... EG a Ter-angreal creation which uses something akin to the weave Rand used in the Stone of Tear to make a table and chairs walk and Egwene piddle herself?"

Funny you should mention that since I made the exact weave for the shadow made flesh setting.

I can see a Ter'angreal that would allow you to make a brick climp up a wall an put itself in place, these are practical uses. The idea being that when war broke out how would you use it.

Well it would make all fortifiactions useless (as they are today), bunkers and castelse and walls become dumb. Who needs a key when you have a door opener. However I would like to point out a theme there. Ogiers and Aiel are all living tools created to do a particual task and none of the terangreal have ever displayed any level of intelligence.




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Llewin
Posted: Oct 14 2004, 06:29 PM
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Quill: ok, first, i'm not starting an arguement smile.gif

I just want to clarify something first... Ogier and Aiel are created? *confused*

Daishan Aiel were human beings who chose a certain life-path....

Ogier, according to the BBoBA, are the 'only' non-human but humanoid species which were not created through genetic engineering and the one power...

Ok, that said though, I do recognize your point on theme

The Nym are created, sentient, beings...as are trollocs, draghkar(maybe sentient there, but not sure)and in my opinion so are the Finn (though a few people on the boards disagree with me and say that the Finn are beings from a mirror world)

We dont have anything which indicates that non-sentient but mobile tools such as the traditional golam were created. This is true...

But so much was lost during the breaking that we dont know it didnt happen... and the Forsaken/Lews Therin dont tend to go on and on about the minutia of what marvels existed during the age of legends...

I dont think its an incredibly long stretch to think that aes sedai would have figured out a way to make a ter'angreal "robot" out of any basic material... Certainly creating such a thing AND 'programming' it to act on its own are two different things but what if it started with the 'robot' mechanized *thing* controlled in real time through a secondary, smaller, ter'angreal by the aes sedai... and evolved from there to the programmed version?

Do you really think its beyond reasonable?
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 14 2004, 07:35 PM
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I think Quillion was using the word "created" loosely. They were trained for a specific purpose. In that since they were "created." He was not saying that they are constructed.


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Niveus
Posted: Oct 15 2004, 03:07 AM
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WARFORGED from the eberron core rule book

Built as mindless machines to figfht in the Last War, o
the warforged developed sentience as a side effect of the
arcane experiments that sought to make them the ultimate
weapons of destruction. With each successive model
that emerged from the creation forges of House Cannith,
the warforged evolved until they became a new kind of
creature—living constructs.
Warforged are renowned for their combat prowess,
their size, and their single-minded focus. They make
steadfast allies and fearsome enemies. Earlier warforged
models are true constructs; some of these remnants of
the Last War appear in monstrous varieties, such as the
warforged titan (described on page 302).
Personality: The warforged were made to fight in
the Last War, and they continue to fulfill their purpose
with distinction. They fight fiercely and usually without
remorse, displaying adaptability impossible for mindless
constructs. Now that the war has ended, the warforged
seek to adapt to life in this era of relative peace. Some have
settled easily into new roles as artisans or laborers, while
others wander as adventurers or even continue fighting the
Last War despite the return of peace.
Physical Description: Warforged appear as massive
humanoids molded from a composite of materials—obsidian,
iron, stone, darkwood, silver, and organic material—though
they move with a surprising grace and flexibility. Flexible
plates connected by fibrous bundles make up the body of a
warforged, topped by a mostly featureless head.
Warforged have no physical distinction of gender; all
of them have a basically muscular, sexless body shape. In
personality, some warforged seem more masculine or feminine,
but different people might judge the same warforged
in different ways. The warforged themselves seem unconcerned
with matters of gender. They do not age naturally,
though their bodies do decay slowly even as their minds
improve through learning and experience.
Unique among constructs, warforged have learned to
modify their bodies through magic and training. Many
warforged are adorned with heavier metal plates than those
their creator originally endowed them with. This customized
armor, built-in weaponry, and other enhancements
to their physical form help to differentiate one warforged
from another.
Relations: As the warforged strive to find a place in
society for themselves after the Last War, they simultaneously
struggle to find ways to relate to the races that created
them. In general, the humanoid races of Khorvaire regard
the warforged as an unpleasant reminder of the brutality of
the Last War and avoid dealing with them when possible.
In Thrane and Karrnath, the warforged are still seen
as the property of the military forces that paid to have them
built, and most warforged in those nations serve as slave
labor, often used to repair buildings and roads damaged
or destroyed in the war. Throughout the rest of Khorvaire,
they have freedom but sometimes find themselves the victims
of discrimination, hard-pressed to find work or any
kind of acceptance. Most warforged, not being particularly
emotional creatures, accept their struggles and servitude
with equanimity, but others seethe with resentment against
all other races as well as those warforged whose only desire
is to please their "masters."
Alignment: Warforged are generally neutral. They
were built to fight, not to wonder whether fighting is right.
Though they are perfectly capable of independent thought
and moral speculation, most choose not to wrestle with
ethical ideals.
Warforged Lands: Warforged originated in Cyre
before its destruction and have no homeland. Most of them
have dispersed across Khorvaire, laboring as indentured
servants in Korth, Atur, and Flamekeep, or struggling to
find work and acceptance in Sharn or Korranberg. A few
congregate in the Mournland, attempting to build a new
warforged society free from the prejudice and mistrust of
the older races.
Dragonmarks: The warforged never possess
dragonmarks.
Religion: Just as most warforged are not inclined
to align themselves with any particular moral or ethical
philosophy, few show much interest in religion.
Some warforged have found a kind of answer to
the questions of their existence by taking up
the cause of one religion or another, but these
remain a small (if rather vocal) minority among their
kind. A larger number gravitate to a messianic figure
called the Lord of Blades. This powerful leader gathers
Warforged


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