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> Weaves that create Life, Such good cereal. Wish I knew the weave.
Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 10:08 PM
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Since the other thread seems to be more focused on debating the existence and possibility of constructs and golems, I wanted to create this thread to discuss possible weaves that could animate objects, transfer souls, etc.

One selfish reason I want to know is I think it'd be a good thing to have for the Encounters Handbook, and probably for the One Power book if it turns out to be One Power-related. I think it could also make for interesting discussion.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 19 2004, 10:58 PM
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Really good question, TRW...

I really have NO idea where to start with how someone might obtain or tap into a soul/stream of souls to give life to something which does not have life... I am fairly sure the Forsaken have made it clear that no one in the age of legends could bring someone *back* to life once they passed. However, the Nym were created and imbued with a soul. This suggests to me that finding a specific soul is beyond the abilities of mere mortals (the DO is not a mortal) however possibly drawing on a pool of waiting souls or even 'soul matter' if you want to get really eastern-thoughtish might be more possible...

Along this line of thought, if we cant bring a soul back to into the body it leaves when someone dies... we *can* bring some random soul into the body of a Nym... how does the Horn of Valere draw on the Heroes of the Horn when it's sounded?


Wait...scratch that, it'll turn into another 'bound by the horn or bound by the wheel' argument *grin*.... *coughwheelcoughcough*...

anyway smile.gif

As far as animating objects goes... Rand has done it a number of times, even to the point of animating dead human flesh (the little girl in the stone of tear) Though when he did it he was reacting and didnt really know how he did what he did, he still didnt have full control over even holding the power when he made the table walk and weaved a rope out of gold filgree in the Stone... However if we think of it as a thing of physics then it seems fairly straight forward... by directly manipulating the atomic bonds of an object you would be able to change its shape without changing its makeup... similarly to taking a hammer to a gold brick...the gold keeps its atomic structure but the shape of it changes... if we can do it to any degree with physical means i'd imagine it should be possible to do it fairly easily with the one power...

So here we go... we have a number of weaves for manipulating water, making it run uphill, freezing it, making it boil, changing its shape and depth etc... and I see no reason those same weaves would not be applicable to earth, though obviously using different parts of the one power... living or once-living matter on the other hand i'd think would be more complicated... what do the ashaman use when they rip a person apart with the one power? most likely the same parts of the one power would be used for healing as well as to manipulate flesh or wood or bone, etc...
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 04:46 AM
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The original reason I posted the question on the AOL Golems thread (which has turned into a "could golems exist" debate), was I wanted to know how Aginor (and anyone else who knows how) creates non-humans. How are trollocs made? How are gholams made? How are nyms made? How would other creatures be made?


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This is an old thing, boy. Older than Aes Sedai. Older than anybody using the One Power. Old as humankind. Old as wolves.

Current Projects:
Encounters Handbook
Tome of the One Power

Homepage:
Town Center Productions
It's funny! Please check out the funny short films and sketches, such as Pink Avenger, the Sockies, and Kenny getting shot with a paintball gun.

Check out my Wheel of Time RPG Website!
It's not as funny as Town Center Productions, but it's updated frequently, so check it out often.
Newest Features:
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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 04:57 AM
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I've been thinking about this a lot TRW, and I am in the process of adapting some Starwars Force Alchemy rules that I think will reflect this nicely. Basically it will be a craft skill that you MUSt be able to use the one power to undergo...with DCs to affect various things, such as adding claws to a base creature, for instance.

I will post this very soon, I just want to work out the kinks first.

smile.gif


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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 05:23 AM
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In addendum, and in relation to the topic at hand, trollocs have souls because they were created from creatures that had souls. Aginor had a base human stock that he often stole from dark territories that he would then change or somehow combine with animal stock, creating trolloc. I believe this is also why myrddraal have souls, as they are the children of souled trollocs and the child of two souled beings would also have to have a soul. (I feel like I'm touching on Buffyverse topics here... wink.gif )

So the question at hand isn't so much how did Aginor create the trollocs (although that is an interesting one and as I said, I think that I've worked out rules for it) but how did the Aes Sedai create the Nym? They also seem to be souled creatures, but are made of plants - which means that it is very doubtful that they arise from human stock. The weave would obviously have to involve some form of Spirit, that seems obvious enough. But how in the world would one imbue a mass of vegetation with a soul?

So my next question, does anybody have proof (I'd like book references, as exact as possible) that the Nym do in fact have souls like humans and trollocs? I'm not saying that they DONT (before I get beaten up by an over-zealous member of our board) just that there may be a possability that we are assuming incorectly that they do in fact have souls. And this very soulness or non-soulness is what determines whether or not they are a "construct" by D&D terms, or something more by other terms that we need to perhaps redefine.


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Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing experiment in writing/illustration/mythology

Photographia

Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog

Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource
* Developing a Character: The Aiel
* Amadicia Background: Complete with Whitecloak PC and new backgound feat
* Moonwarrior - A Wolfbrother feat in the main Feats section
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 05:35 AM
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QUOTE (Zarozynia @ Oct 26 2004, 03:23 AM)
(before I get beaten up by an over-zealous member of our board)

Was that necessary, Z? Do you really wish to continue this? I'm disappointed. I really thought you were far above such pettiness.

I'm not sure what RJ's definition is of a soul. I know what mine is, but doubt that it is the same as his. Does anyone have a link to a QA session with RJ that he discusses what a soul is in his world? I've never seen one, but I haven't seen everything. Or if not that, perhaps refrences of the use of the word soul. By seeing it in context we may be able to understand more fully, what RJ means when he says "soul". Just a thought.


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Llewin
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 05:46 AM
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OK I dont have the link currently but it is in one of the Q&A sessions at dragonmount.com.

in the same article he describes trollocs souls as 'barely being worth the title' because they are so twisted and sick
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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 05:52 AM
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Sigh...that was me trying to make light of the situation, but not meant to be seen as petty. It was a reference to *many* (including me) being touchy lately.

I agree that there needs to be some common working definition for the word "soul" so that we can determine what does and does not have one. I know that RJ said that trollocs and myrdraal have a soul, as Llewin just said; also we know that all souls are reborn as per Lews Therin specifically as well as the souls of the Heroes. Wolves seem to have souls, as they do not disappear when they die but move on to the Wolf Dream (do they get reborn after a time, or do they remain there forever...does anybody know?).

Any other references that people can think of?


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Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing experiment in writing/illustration/mythology

Photographia

Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog

Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource
* Developing a Character: The Aiel
* Amadicia Background: Complete with Whitecloak PC and new backgound feat
* Moonwarrior - A Wolfbrother feat in the main Feats section
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 26 2004, 05:58 AM
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QUOTE (Zarozynia @ Oct 26 2004, 03:52 AM)
Sigh...that was me trying to make light of the situation, but not meant to be seen as petty. It was a reference to *many* (including me) being touchy lately.

In that case, I'm not disappointed in you anymore, Z. You are back in my good graces. wink.gif

I'm pretty sure that the wolves are reborn. For some reason I think they are waiting in TAR to be reborn as well. Couldn't give you a reference though. Sorry.


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