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> "Harden Air" question, maybe I've already figured it out
strycher
Posted: May 6 2004, 11:09 PM
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Here's a possible interpretation of the effects of Harden Air.

I like the idea that the Mountain Cat's head could be encased (if succesful with Touch Attack or harder DC). Then, the Cat now has a ball of hardened air around its head. It now has 15 rounds until it makes a Con check for suffucating (due to Con=15 and not being prepared with a deep breath)

During these 15 rounds, the Mountain Cat is not trapped in a single location. It can move around as normal, but it will have an impenetratable ball around its head for the duration of the weaver's concentration.

I picture the Mountain cat fleeing. Once it gets 110 feet away (from a 1st level weaver), the Cat is out of range, and the weave ends. Since the cat is simply a wild animal, I think it would be more scared by this weave than angry.
A NPC could certainly react differently. He could try to attack the weaver to break his concentration and end the weave.

Being allowed to move is different than the effect described by the book. But, I would change the description to read: that while an object is trapped in the air and doesn't move, (This isn't a telekenisis weave, after all) a creature can move.
The target creature can move the rest of his body if only his head is trapped. I provide the alternate ruling that a creature can move anywhere. It simply "carries" around this sphere around its head of hardened air.

Finally, this isn't really a powerful weave at these levels. Its not the "instant death" that we might have though that it was. So, I would consider allowing these results.
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 7 2004, 12:25 AM
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I'm not sure that the deep breath is going to make that big of a difference. A few rounds? A round is approximately 6 seconds. For him to die, it would take a significant number of rounds. Assume Con 10, that's 2 minutes. I find that reasonable even considering, no deep breath. (Remember we are talking death not unconciousness.)


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 7 2004, 01:10 AM
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If he took several deep breaths to oxegynate his blood it would make a significant difference.

I think 2 minutes is a long time to go without breath, if you don't have a chance to breath first. Also unconciousness would come a good minute before death, how would you handle that?

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strycher
Posted: May 7 2004, 01:27 AM
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Actually, with a Con of 10, you would get one minute, then you start making Fort saves. The DC on the first round (round "11") would is 10. The next round the DC is 11, and it goes up from there.
So, the 11th round could be a 50/50 chance of failing for the Con 10 target.

As to "preparation" making a difference?
Think about being in the middle of a battle. Are you taking deep breaths? Or are you jumping around, gasping whenever you get the chance? If suddenly your ability to breath was cut off, I think that really would make a difference.

The way I interpret the rules on p.230, are for a character preparing to go swimming underwater. The 2x Con is after the person takes a deep breath, then holds it.

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The first failure is subdual damage equal to current Hit Points (So the target is at 0 Hit Points) and Unconsciousness. The next round, the target drops to -1 HP and is "dying". The next, or third, round is death.
(p.230 of rules). So death comes 12 seconds (2 rounds) after the first missed save.
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 7 2004, 03:23 AM
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Okay, I hate to play Math teacher here, but I also hate being told I'm wrong.

First, I direct your attention to p.230, second column, first full paragraph.

"Any character can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to twice his Constitution score.

Second, I direct your attention to the side bar on p.132 titled "Combat Basics." First subdivision of the bar, titled "Rounds."

"Combat is divided into rounds. Each round, each combatant gets to do something. A round represents 6 seconds in the game world."

This gives a simple equation for number of seconds (or minutes) a creature can hold his breath given his Con score.

In the example I gave with Con 10, I stated that it would take 2 minutes. You say it would take 1 minute. (Both of us were refering to pre Saving Throw condition.) Let's see who is right.

Con x 2 x 6 = number of seconds until saves start

Seconds / 60 = minutes

Therefore

10 x 2 x 6 = 120 seconds

120 / 2 = 2 minutes

Class dismissed


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 7 2004, 03:44 AM
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Don't mistake my sarcasm for anemosity. Just trying to make sure that everyone has got the whole rounds into seconds into minutes thing.

I think that you run into a certain amount of luck as to whether or not the target has taken a breath before the HA. I believe that is where the saves come into play. If you play it any other way then you run into guess work.

The question is do you want to make it so that stuff dies in a few rounds working under the assumption that they have just exhaled? Do you want your DM to do this to you and when you say, "I have a Con of 15 so I've got 30 rounds before I start making saves. Hopefully my fellow players can kill this channeler first," he says, "Oh sorry, I think that you weren't ready for this and you probably are on the exhale. So you'll have to make a save the next round."

If you don't want your character to suffer from an altered rule, then you shouldn't expect your GM to impose such rules on your opponents.

On a side note, I'm not throughly convinced that taking a "deep breath" would make that great of difference in the amount of time that you would survive without air.

Here are some more numbers (Physiology class time now smile.gif )
(Note: these numbers are averages. Acutal number vary from individual to individual.)

Total Lung capacity: 5.8 L
Inspiratory reserve volume: 3 L
Expiratory reserve volume: 1.1 L
Residual volume: 1.2 L
Tidal volume: 0.5 L

This means that upon normal breathing you only breath out and then in 0.5 L of air. You could still breath in another 3 L for a deep breath, or you could still breath out another 1.1 L. Then there is still another 1.2 L that you can't even force out. So even on a normal exhale you would have 2.3 L of air in your lungs. Just for your enjoyment, I just now forced all the air out of my lungs that I can. I was able to keep myself from breathing in for 30 seconds. I'm sure that my body could have lasted a lot longer than that before dying. (I'm not going to check that for you.) Will a deep breath help? Yes, of course. 3 L extra. Is it going to be such a big deal that you really want to make new rules for whether or not you are breathing out our in? Not me. Remember, if we are talking normal in / out breaths then you are only talking about 0.5 L difference. So it is kind of pointless ot think about whether or not the critter is on the inhale or exhale. Deep breaths would make a difference, but I'm not going to worry about. I think the rules are fine as they are.

Bottom line... it's a game. It's supposed to be fun. Mammalian physiology is not fun, so I like to keep it out of my games. smile.gif BLAH! ph34r.gif

Class dismissed again


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Zifnab
Posted: May 7 2004, 06:30 AM
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I think the point he might have been making is that when the weave is cast, the target most probably wouldn't have any more than a normal breath in them, not a deep breath, which is what the "holding your breath" rule surely refers to. So 1 round per constiution point seems reasonable.

More importantly, does that mean I can figure out my own constitution score by seeing how long I can hold my breath?
I smell a contest coming on... ;-)

EDIT: I actually read the last part of your second post, and then I held my breath after taking a normal breath, and I must say, it started getting harder to hold it much faster than if I take a deep breath.

This post has been edited by Zifnab on May 7 2004, 06:33 AM


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 7 2004, 11:23 AM
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Yes, but how long did it take you to die?


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Zarozynia
Posted: May 10 2004, 02:44 AM
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I was curious about the whole suffocation thing, then I thought of a source...so I looked it up in the Starwars Core Rule book since you can suffocate somebody with the Force, which is similar to what you would do with harden air. According to them you dont get the bonus for a deep breath, you only get the number of rounds equal to your consitution modifier. Thought I'd share.


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: May 10 2004, 06:17 PM
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Not to be all fuddy-duddy about this, but if we're worrying about such details like whether or not a deep breath was taken before harden air, are we paying attention to other minute details? It seems to me as though at best a deep breath might double your breath holding time, but really, to me, it doesn't really make too much of a difference. If it does to you all, that's fine, and I'm not traying to preach or anything. I'm just warning against going into too much detail while roleplaying.


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Sharn
Posted: May 10 2004, 07:09 PM
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Thanks, TRWB. That was the only point that I was trying to make... or was I trying to make a point? I can't remember... Either way I agree with what you said. smile.gif

And by the way...

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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: May 11 2004, 03:27 AM
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Um, I believe that would be eleven.


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Darius Earthbinder
Posted: May 16 2004, 07:58 PM
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this issue came up in my last session

Party vs the Cave bear...

round 1, Channeler embraces the source, bear charges, archer/swordsman/wanderer deal damage
round 2, Chaneller casts grenade, Bear smacks down swordsman
archer/swordsman/wanderer deal damage
Round 3, Chaneller grenades bear, bear finishes off swordsman
archer/swordsman/wanderer deal damage
Round 3, chaneller casts harden air on bears head (5 min thinking time... Ahah opposed Concentration check vs Str because 1. Concentration to form this 3ft sphere of imobile air around the bears head and in a way its the chanellers "mental" Str. 2 bears are big and bloody strong +it was badly hurt really P***ed and a bit frenzied) so chaneler puts up sphere of air Bear breaks
archer/wanderer deal damage (swordsman stabilizes)
Round 4 repeat of round 3
Round 4 repeat of round 3
All in all the chaneller is blowing valuable weave slots and okay hes slowing the bear down but all it really amounts to is the equivalent of performing an aid another action.

this seems to work lets be serious if you are busy moving around and you feel the air around you start to harden (full round casting time) you are going to keep moving, now if it covers your entire body moving is hard, but if its just a limb or head you are going to get out of the way (just depends if you are strong enough to break out before it becomes solid)

on a side note, if a person is trapped in harden air can the channeler leave enough of a spot open for someone to deliver a Coup de Grace?
(base of neck, heart, groin, armpit etc)
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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: May 19 2004, 10:45 PM
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don't you normaly leave the head unbound so they can breath? (unless you otherwise specify) if so, the head is a top target for a Coup de Grace (as per a shot to the back of the head )
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Darius Earthbinder
Posted: May 19 2004, 11:16 PM
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i was considering it as a way to get a coup de grace without allowing your opponent to make a sound (by having harden air cover the head)

? can you use harden air to block a doorway or corridor? if so will noise travel through, can it be penetrated by an evesdrop weave?
Can a chaneller leave enough of a gap for a being to breathe but not leave the head free, ie. still able to breathe but not to move their tongue/jaw to talk.

does the victim become impervious to harm whilst trapped within harden air??
does harden air block Line of fire from arrows/daggers/illuminators rockets

is harden air solid enough to stand on, can you cast it multiple times (with the tie off weave) in order to make an invisible stairway, or to make it seem like levitation

just a few rude thoughts @midnight
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Mantyluoto
Posted: May 20 2004, 11:48 AM
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[QUOTE]lets be serious if you are busy moving around and you feel the air around you start to harden (full round casting time) you are going to keep moving /QUOTE]

my take of a full round weave is that it doesn't actually come into effect until the second before your action the following round. so the air doesn't harden or begin to harden til then..

This post has been edited by Mantyluoto on May 20 2004, 11:49 AM


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 20 2004, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE
my take of a full round weave is that it doesn't actually come into effect until the second before your action the following round. so the air doesn't harden or begin to harden til then..


Which is prcisely how the rules play.


Peace
J


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