Powered by Invision Power Board


Pages: (2) [1] 2  ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Critical Hits and Misses
Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 01:04 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Seer of Darkness
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 230
Member No.: 131
Joined: 10-April 04



I was curious as to how people deal with critical hits and misses (beyond the obvious success double damage and automatic failures). I've found a copy neat tables on line that have you roll a d10 and from there it determines what the hit/miss does, if anything. Do any of you use anything like this in your games, or have you in the past? Is it worth it?

My thought is that it sounds like fun, making battle more personalized and interesting.


--------------------
Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing experiment in writing/illustration/mythology

Photographia

Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog

Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource with backgrounds, feats, house rules, a vit/wound point system and an Age of Legends campaign setting (in the works)
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteAOL
Top
Blaeric Fen
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 01:19 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Honorary Court JeSter
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 270
Member No.: 71
Joined: 30-January 04



I roll D% to determine if the miss hurts the PC attacking, or if by chance it slightly injures the defender.

If it's a crit. hit I use a different table.

I also use a d% table to determine where the attack hits if it's a regular attack that hits, or misses...

I can't seem to find the table tho, I'm gonna go look for it right now & post it l8r...


--------------------
If you've got nothing to live for, what's the point of living?

Dont be afraid of death, be afraid of an unlived life ; you dont have to live forever, you just have to live...
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteAOLMSN
Top
Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 02:35 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Lemming Extraordinare
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 287
Member No.: 15
Joined: 15-January 04



Well, I don't think that called shots and specific locations of criticals play well into a hit point system. At least not if you are giving specific damaging effects based on where it hits.

I usually get descriptive for criticals describing the effects:

Example:

Johnny Basher does a critical with a Great Axe for 48 points of damage against a trolloc with 16 hp. I describe it like this: The trolloc leaves an opening that Johnny Basher takes advantage of. He swings with all is might down on the trollocs head, splitting it in half and following through halfway down his chest.

Or something equally gorey.


--------------------
It's like the blank stares of a million pairs of blind eyes.
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteYahooMSN
Top
Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 03:31 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Seer of Darkness
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 230
Member No.: 131
Joined: 10-April 04



I actually use a vit/wound point system in my game, do you think that that would make a difference. I know that my PCs often ask me when they suffer wound point damage, where is it? So that they can roll play having an injury in a specific location, or show off their real cool newly healed scar if its bad enough that my channeler decides to heal it for them.

What this actually means is that their crits dont do double or triple damage, so my PCs dont tend to kill something in one hit (although if they are fighting a non-heroic class, they crits are automatic kills) - but I like your idea. I try to describe things in bloody gory detail when neccessary. Its more fun that way. laugh.gif


--------------------
Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing experiment in writing/illustration/mythology

Photographia

Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog

Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource with backgrounds, feats, house rules, a vit/wound point system and an Age of Legends campaign setting (in the works)
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteAOL
Top
Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 05:12 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Lemming Extraordinare
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 287
Member No.: 15
Joined: 15-January 04



That's cool about the scare, and I've even had a PC deal a maiming blow to a Villian that later got away. He was a two weapon fighter and the PC maimed his right arm. Needless to say, very ticked off villian now. smile.gif

But I'm not sure that you need to random roll something to tell them where it hit. Just make it up and tell them it hit them there. As long as it has no effect on damage or numbers then don't use a mechanic to solve it. In other words, the end result you are looking for is a RPing thing, so solve it with RPing. Don't complicate things with too many tables. smile.gif Heck, if the PC wanted a cool scar in a specific place and they told me so, I would probably let them have it hit there next time a Crit got scored on them. I'm all about helping players make their PC like the envision them.


--------------------
It's like the blank stares of a million pairs of blind eyes.
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteYahooMSN
Top
Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 07:13 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Breaker-of-horses-and-men
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 166
Member No.: 22
Joined: 15-January 04



Right, in a Vit/Wounds system Crits just go right to wounds...which can be quite nasty in and of itself.

Crit Failures should NEVER do any damage to the defender at all....a 1 is always a fail no matter what. What we do is on a critical failure is determine who is nearby, they have a percent chance of losing weapon (no allies around), hurting themselves, or dealing damage to one of their allies. Makes fights very very interesting plus adds somewhat to the realism of the combat.

Like Sharn for my Critical Hits we usually do very gory descriptive maiming and such as well smile.gif


--------------------
What is dead can never die.
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterAOLYahooMSN
Top
Lariane Sedai
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 10:00 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 47
Member No.: 150
Joined: 28-May 04



I share the opinion of Entropic Existence in that a 1 is always a miss - but I would have to deviate from there. The ONLY time I would ever consider determining a harmful effect for rolling a one would be if the character was not proficient with the weapon they were using - otherwise te idea doesn't make sense. It's all about probability - every time an attack roll is made, irrespective of bonuses, there is a 1 in 20 chance of rolling each number - that means that there is a 5% chance of rolling a 1. Now, that's fairly high as probabilities go, when you consider that the majority of rolls made in any game, no matter how RP oriented, will be attack rolls. It is fair enough if a 1 is an automatic miss as an opposition to a critical, but when you apply a critical miss rule you're bending the number 1 rule of RPing, common sense. By that line of reasoning, a character playing a 20th level armsman has
a) The same chance of critically missing as a 1st level armsman, which doesn't make sense.

and cool.gif that a man who has been using a sword all of his life has the same chance of missing and hurting himself or his allies or losing his weapon as does a shepherd who is using a heron blade for the first time and is not proficient with it.

Both of these, which are givens ifyou apply the straight "1" is a critical miss, don't make sense.

So what do I do? I leave lucky blows (criticals) as chance, because there is the possibility that such a thing will happen. It is commonly attributed to luck that you may strike your enemy in a vital spot. When a critical threat (19 or 20 in the case of a longsword) are rolled, I let the player make another attack roll. If they again hit against the creatures defense, they score double damage; if the critical on the critical, they repeat the proccess, adding a further multiplier, etc. etc. In theory this may result in multipliers as high as infinity, but the cumulative chance at least decreases as this happens.

So whoever said critical misses add realism to the game is wrong. Anyone wh0 disagrees is most welcome to argue with me and the laws of probability if they feel so inclined. If they are right, then lets just hope that the Lord Dragon doesn't happen to drop his weapon in the Last Battle...


--------------------
Accepted of the White Tower who seeks to become a Sister of the Red Ajah - 1st level Domani Initiate
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Mantyluoto
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 11:07 AM
Report PostQuote Post


New Monster: Hairy Dragon
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 454
Member No.: 17
Joined: 15-January 04



i have a different take on the ctits/1's debate.

when i was a lad "knees creaking, hunched over, drooling with age biggrin.gif" my first DM taught me that a natural 20 was double damage and a natural 1 was not only a miss but a fatal fumble, meaning that you/your opponent drops theri weapon. the person has two choices. pick the weapon up in their normal round or go for it then giving the attacker a free attack.

now i can honestly say, hand on my arse...no heart, that i probably don't play 3E/WoT very well. i take the rules that are present and do what i like to them. i no i haven't read the whole of the rule books (any of them) because i simply cant be bothered so my player and i learn what we need to learn when we need to unsure.gif .

its a kind of hap-hazard way of doing it but it works for us.

So going back to the crits misses thing "scratches heads, wipes off drool, farts, burps and opens eyes". i use the 3E/Wot time crits range and multiplier damage but i also use the fatal fumble rule. which can make things a bit more dangerous biggrin.gif

I don't use hit location tables or crit location tables as i generally have enough to do running countless NPC's/monsters and the like. i, like sharn, use pure description for critical hits, especially if its a killing blow.

wow i'm impressed with myself. this is the longest "serious" post ive done in ages biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Mantyluoto on Jun 6 2004, 11:09 AM


--------------------
For Those About To Rock, We Salute You
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 04:54 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Seer of Darkness
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 230
Member No.: 131
Joined: 10-April 04



I didn't mean to infer Lariane Sedai that I would treat a natural one as an automatic critical miss, although I play with a group of players that is used to having bad effects of rolling a one, as in something that happened to your weapon or to you that made you unable to make an attack at all. In Starwars when we were playing with blaster pistols, it was often that they overheated, making us both drop them and take a small amount of damage. I have only had one natural one rolled in battle so far in the six months that we have been playing, and I had his bowstring break.

What I was thinking is that, just like with a critical threat, it would require a second roll of some kind, probably a d10 roll which would determine the effect of the miss. did you drop your weapon, did you hit one of your own comrads, did you weapon hit a tree and get stuck in it? Not all weapons CAN hurt you, I dont really see a low bow doing much damage to the person shooting it (other than possible rubbing their arm raw or something) but I would include it as a natural 1 on the d10 roll, for instance.


--------------------
Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing experiment in writing/illustration/mythology

Photographia

Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog

Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource with backgrounds, feats, house rules, a vit/wound point system and an Age of Legends campaign setting (in the works)
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteAOL
Top
Mantyluoto
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 04:58 PM
Report PostQuote Post


New Monster: Hairy Dragon
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 454
Member No.: 17
Joined: 15-January 04



QUOTE
I dont really see a low bow doing much damage to the person shooting it (other than possible rubbing their arm raw or something)


Z what about the string breaking and taking out their eye ohmy.gif


--------------------
For Those About To Rock, We Salute You
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 06:16 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Breaker-of-horses-and-men
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 166
Member No.: 22
Joined: 15-January 04



Note I also said when they roll a 1 they have a chance of something bad happening, not every 1 results in a fumble or damaging an ally or themselves. We also tend to keep in mind character levels when we are doing this. Comabt can be messy and dirty and while yea statistically the dice has a 5% chance of coming up one every good dice-rolling RPer knows dice have a mind of their own smile.gif

Anyway just sayinf that no in my game a 1 isn't ALWAYS a critical failure, but it can be quite frequently. And it is all about the context that you use and how you present the critical failure that helps adhere to common sense. In my games players tend to fight alot of skilled opponents, often times more skilled than they are. So while that level 15 armsmen is damn good with his sword, the level 20 swordsmen his party is fighting is better, so you present the critical failure more like "Bad Guy manages to duck at the last possible instant and was position in such a way that you overbalanced thrust catches Ally #1 in the shoulder, grazing him and drawing a little blood" etc.


--------------------
What is dead can never die.
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterAOLYahooMSN
Top
Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 08:51 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Lemming Extraordinare
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 287
Member No.: 15
Joined: 15-January 04



That's the only serious post you've done in ages.

smile.gif


Loraine, I whole heartedly agree with you on your arguement against critical misses. I play that a 1 always misses, and I might describe it as you loosing your footing a little or a backpack strap slipping down your arm, but I don't do anything to them that would cause damage or anything like that.

Besides if you just deal out damage to allies in the surrounding area, what about their defensive abilities? Aren't they just as likely to dodge the missed swing as an opponents purposeful swing? If you are going to do something like that for 1's then you should at the very least take the allies' defense into account. (You might make the player roll another attack against them at a penatly since if you use the one they just rolled, then it will always miss.) But if it were me, I wouldn't use the critical miss for the same reasons that Loraine mentioned.


--------------------
It's like the blank stares of a million pairs of blind eyes.
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteYahooMSN
Top
Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 6 2004, 09:17 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Breaker-of-horses-and-men
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 166
Member No.: 22
Joined: 15-January 04



QUOTE
Besides if you just deal out damage to allies in the surrounding area, what about their defensive abilities? Aren't they just as likely to dodge the missed swing as an opponents purposeful swing? If you are going to do something like that for 1's then you should at the very least take the allies' defense into account. (You might make the player roll another attack against them at a penatly since if you use the one they just rolled, then it will always miss.)


Yup, we do that too if that is the result that comes from the critical fumble. When you work the system properly it rarely happens that something truly bad happens. In my experience (and I've used this system as a DM, as well as been a player with a DM who used the system was well) it made the combat much grittier as well as exciting. All the players who I've played with utilizing a critical fumbles rule have loved it. But as always it depends on the group and how you handle it.


--------------------
What is dead can never die.
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterAOLYahooMSN
Top
Lariane Sedai
Posted: Jun 7 2004, 02:24 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 47
Member No.: 150
Joined: 28-May 04



I will be the first to admit I don't interact much with other GM's of any description, so I don't get to compare methods very often; but it sounds to me that GM's here on this board particularly enjoy fiddling with the rules for fiddling's sake, and for their own enjoyment as much as for the enjoyment of their players. I am, I suppose, what might be called a conservative/reactive GM: I go with what is in front of me (written in stone, as it were, official rules) until my players express a desire for something different, or until a particular situation arises where the rules do not deal with it. Otherwise, how do you know that what you change is neccesary, or even practical?


--------------------
Accepted of the White Tower who seeks to become a Sister of the Red Ajah - 1st level Domani Initiate
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Zarozynia
Posted: Jun 7 2004, 03:34 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Seer of Darkness
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 230
Member No.: 131
Joined: 10-April 04



QUOTE (Lariane Sedai @ Jun 7 2004, 12:24 AM)
I will be the first to admit I don't interact much with other GM's of any description, so I don't get to compare methods very often; but it sounds to me that GM's here on this board particularly enjoy fiddling with the rules for fiddling's sake, and for their own enjoyment as much as for the enjoyment of their players. I am, I suppose, what might be called a conservative/reactive GM: I go with what is in front of me (written in stone, as it were, official rules) until my players express a desire for something different, or until a particular situation arises where the rules do not deal with it. Otherwise, how do you know that what you change is neccesary, or even practical?

I also am in a position where the only GMs of note that I interact with (who aren't mookers in my game, who IMHO cant count) are the people on this board. I personal think that as is the WoT rules are broken in a hundred different ways, of course, critical hits and misses aren't neccessarily one of them, as I do think that that is a decision that both the players and the GMs have to make together. My players brought it up to me as something that they have liked in the past, so I have been looking into it. And since you all are the only GMs that I know, I ask for your oppinions. biggrin.gif

This WoT game, which I have been running now for just about six months, is the first game that I have ever GMed. I suspect that that's a lot of why I am fiddling with the rules, I am trying to figure out what systems, rules, ideas work best for me as a GM. I have changed a lot of minor rules since we began the game, and to be truthful, a few of my PCs have expressed the wish for me not to change anything else about combat (I've added in using a grid, combat facing, and my own rules to supliment the vit/wound system as Wizard's created it). We also dont get into combat all that often, so as they put it, when we do, there's always some new rule that we are working with.


--------------------
Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing experiment in writing/illustration/mythology

Photographia

Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog

Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource with backgrounds, feats, house rules, a vit/wound point system and an Age of Legends campaign setting (in the works)
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteAOL
Top
Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jun 7 2004, 04:06 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Lemming Extraordinare
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 287
Member No.: 15
Joined: 15-January 04



Don't worry, Zarozynia. I went through that phase too. I kept changing combat rules and classes. Everytime I changed the classes I'd have my players draw their characters up again according to the changes. They got a little sick of it, but liked the changes made.

Now I'm old and stubborn and won't hardly change. My players are happy with the classes that we have settled on, and I'm always open for introduction of a new Feat or something like that, but I don't mess with major stuff anymore.

You know how when someone first gets into bed with you when you've already been there and gotten comfortable. They start moving around moving the covers and generally annoying the heck out of you. Finally they "make their nest" and settle down. Yeah, that is what you are doing now, until you make your nest you probably will annoy your players a little bit, but it'll be okay once you get figured out what you like.

Or something like that.


--------------------
It's like the blank stares of a million pairs of blind eyes.
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers WebsiteYahooMSN
Top
Kathax Mosail Rishaem
Posted: Jun 7 2004, 08:05 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Learned Master
***

Group: Members
Posts: 21
Member No.: 134
Joined: 14-April 04



i have my own take on the 1/20 issue... i used to play rolemaster a hell of a lot, and i live the combat system in it, in that it uses critical hit tables. in this, it doesn't work quite so well, so i just kind of wing it where it seems appropriate. in the case of ones, i usually roll percentile to see just how bad the fumble was. it's pretty much always by situation (surroundings, number of opponents, lighting), but my basic system is that on a 61-100, they miss and leave themselves open, incurring a defense penalty or some such. on 31-60, they drop the weapon. 11-30 they end up getting in the way of an ally, or put themselves in line for an attack of opportunity due to stumbling into the line of an enemy (or something similar). 1-10, they (possibly) hit an ally, and have to make an attack roll against a friend.


--------------------
Where am I going? And why am I in this handbasket??
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Jun 7 2004, 10:46 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Elder Scholar
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 140
Member No.: 74
Joined: 1-February 04



my own rule on a 1 is that when you roll it you make a dexterity check vrs dc 10. if you succeed, no bad thing happens, if you fail, bad things happen ph34r.gif ph34r.gif ph34r.gif
usual penalties for failures are you are flatfooted until your next turn, and you lose your next turn, or if you only failed the check by a bit (less than five) then you drop your weapon.
if you fail by more than ten (another natural one which i treat as neg 10) then youre flatfoted until your next turn as above and you drop your weapon, posibly harming someone around you( the weapon flies from your hands, roll d10 1 is up 2 is north 3 is ne, 4 e.... 10 at your feet)
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 7 2004, 11:11 PM
Report PostQuote Post


Breaker-of-horses-and-men
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 166
Member No.: 22
Joined: 15-January 04



QUOTE
but it sounds to me that GM's here on this board particularly enjoy fiddling with the rules for fiddling's sake, and for their own enjoyment as much as for the enjoyment of their players.


I don't think this is true at all, I for one do very little fiddling in my game at all because I prefer to play the game within the rules presented. I haven't altered my classes at all except allowing the Algai's buckler to stack with defense and a few other very minute changes to fix inconsistencies. Critical fumbles may have never been a part of core rules, have been around as almost semi-official add on rules for the DnD system for along time. I remember using a critical fumble table back in AD&D 2nd edition that I think was taken from an official product although I can't remember. I don't think anyone here fiddles for the sake of fiddling, and I don't think any GM here alters anythign to the point that their players don't enjoy it, otherwise what's the point. I don't agree with lots of the rules changes I;ve seen some fellow GM's use, but it is all a matter of personal taste and/or interpretation of the setting really.


--------------------
What is dead can never die.
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterAOLYahooMSN
Top
Primal Paladin22
Posted: Jun 8 2004, 08:20 AM
Report PostQuote Post


Elder Scholar
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 201
Member No.: 96
Joined: 16-February 04



I think alot of us talk about messing with the rules. It would be interesting to see how much of the musing done on this board is actually carried over into our games. I know I have used some stuff from other's post (a little) but I have not used any of my own really. I have modified a couple of weaves for a particular PC or NPC, and I use my fatigue channeling system, I bet that would chap your @$$ Larieane Sedai, but that is about it.

Oh yeah I use standard crit rules and I count all 1s as misses.

Peace
J


--------------------
"Me... I'm doom on two legs, and you... you're a fish among sharks." - said the submission fighter "Lancelot" to an arrogant and unnamed scrub.
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
1 Members: Zinuk

Topic OptionsPages: (2) [1] 2  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll