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> Effects of a gateway?, Pressure changes and other hazards
KSBsnowowl
  Posted: Feb 23 2004, 06:47 PM
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I had a thought pop into my head while on a flight over the past weekend. Say somone opened a gateway at sea level, in Tear for example, that lead to a high altitude, such as the Mountains of Mist or the Spine of the World. Or, for a real world example, from New York, NY to Denver, Colorado. The change in altitude (approx a mile in the real world case) would likely result in quite a dramatic pressure difference between the two sides of the gateway. How drastic would the resultant effects be, do you think? It would at least cause a breeze to blow from one direction to the other, but would it be enough to cause a wind-howling torrent? Wouldn't the sudden change in pressure by stepping through the gateway have a good chance of blowing out someone's eardrum?

Can you successfully open a gateway on a ship without cutting the deck to pieces? Given that the ship is rocking/bobbing with the waves? Basically, when you make a gateway, is it stationary to the 'earth' (even if that 'earth' is the sea/water)? Is that perhaps why Semi (as Anath) has not shown up to Forsaken meetings?

Oh, and just one other random thought; since a gateway doesn't have to open in the direction of travel, you could theoretically open a horizontal gateway where both openings faced up. If you placed anything in the gateway it would 'float' in 'mid-air,' because at the event horizon of the gateway, gravity on both sides of the gate would be be pulling the object toward the gate.


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Patterns in the Weave: Aermon, son of Hamiel, son of Kamm, Male Ogier Wanderer 1
This Ogier left on a Grove-tour with his Greatfather, and he hopes to replenish the decimated Groves.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Duty is as heavy as a mountain, death as light as a feather.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 23 2004, 06:55 PM
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well, let's take this in parts.

1st Question) you're applying a bit too much real-world physics to this, but i would say it definately would make a heavy breeze. Not a torrent, nor would it do a light summer breeze, but enough to blow some heavy cold in. Remember when Rand opened the gate to Seanchan.

2nd) I would say stationary to the earth. Note that the gateway only cuts when it's opening. Otherwise it's hardly there.

3rd) I would say no. biggrin.gif You can't open a one-way gateway, unless you're opening to the Void.

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Feb 23 2004, 06:55 PM


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KSBsnowowl
Posted: Feb 23 2004, 07:16 PM
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you're applying a bit too much real-world physics to this
Ah, but doesn't Jordan apply physics to his world as well? biggrin.gif
QUOTE
Remember when Rand opened the gate to Seanchan.
Don't you mean Aviendha? Yes, I had forgotten that; however I think that was just because there was a windy storm on the other side, that happened to blow through the gateway.
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I would say stationary to the earth. Note that the gateway only cuts when it's opening. Otherwise it's hardly there.
I certainly disagree with that. I remember Mat (IIRC) thinking about what would happen if lances, poles, etc touched that top edge of the gateway. It was only conjecture, but it alluded that the edges were razor sharp, even after they were open. And if you think about it logically, if you were to stick your arms out and walk through a 3-foot-wide gateway, your arms would be lopped off. On the gate side of the edge there is nothing keeping you from moving forward, and on the outside edge there is nothing from keeping your arms from moving forward. There is no physical door jam to prevent you from touching the edge. It's still sharp because the cells of your arm are still at your starting place, and the cells that were previously next to them are now (potentially) hundreds of miles away.

QUOTE
I would say no.  You can't open a one-way gateway, unless you're opening to the Void.
I'll admit I didn't explain it as thoroughly as I could have. You aren't making a one-way gateway. You are standing outside and you make a gateway parallel to the ground with the opening facing up such that you could step off and 'fall' through it. However, the opening at the other end is also parallel to the ground with the opening facing up. So, you look down through either opening and you are looking up at the sky. If you drop something into one gateway, it will reach the event horizon and then be affected by the relative direction of gravity at the other end of the opening, which is also trying to pull objects toward the gateway. Thus you have two equal forces of gravity pulling (or perhaps pushing would be better in this case) in opposite directions. Thus, the object is stuck, 'floating' on the event horizon.


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Patterns in the Weave: Aermon, son of Hamiel, son of Kamm, Male Ogier Wanderer 1
This Ogier left on a Grove-tour with his Greatfather, and he hopes to replenish the decimated Groves.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Duty is as heavy as a mountain, death as light as a feather.
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Targul
Posted: Feb 23 2004, 11:07 PM
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All really interesting questions but how much do they really matter?

As to the pressure I would say there would be some wind etc. But you are also talking about the power here. It kinda exists outside of the normal rules of physics as we understand them, so wouldn't it be safe to assume that the weave creates a sort of equilibrium that protects the people passing through?

As to the opening a portal on a boat, which should be next to impossible anyway since you can't know where you are going since the ship is in almost constant motion on the sea and why bother when you could just board a docked ship. However, I would say that if you are opening the portal in relation to the ship then you wouldn't cut into the deck unless you wanted too. It would easily be possible to create the portal a little higher off the ground/deck in order to avoid this and the portal should move with the ship just as any other physical object would.

And then there is the event horizon. Yeah, ok but really why would anyone want to do this in the first place. First of all you would look like a moron with your legs sticking out one end your torso out the other. Plus if your concentration was broken in such a state the portal could close, without proper precautions of course, and then you have two portions of yourself in very different locations. And NO amount of healing is going to bring your stupid ass back

Just my 2 cents


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Wait, if I DID evil, and you guys here ARE evil. Then shouldn't you be showering me with rewards and concubines, etc.?
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Then I'm sure you'll appreciate what is going to occur.
I'm dead, so this is some egoscopic projection of myself?
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So without any fleshy meats to slow me down, how long do you REALLY think it'll take for me to usurp your entire kingdom?
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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Feb 23 2004, 11:33 PM
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as to your third conjecture, the forcess of gravity would be cancelling each other out, but not any previous accelerations, so unless you put the item in the gatewayalready, it would continue to drop through the gateway until the gravity on the other side counteracts its momentum, such as when you jump up, you continue to move upwards until gravity counteracts your upwards speed. thus you have your object perpetually falling and changing direction.

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KSBsnowowl
Posted: Feb 24 2004, 12:54 AM
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Actually Kakita, I'm pretty sure that although there would be some occilation, the occilations would decay rapidly and the object would become stationary rather quickly. Think of it as being similar to a rubber bouncy-ball. Its rebound decays with each bounce.

Perhaps I can a potentially better example. You know how when a rubber ball is held underwater and then let go it rises to the surface? If you were to take an object (a rubber ball or something similar) that would have a 'floating force' equal to the force of gravity working upon it, and drop that into a pool, it would fall into the water and 'bob' for a little bit, but without outside factors such as wind/waves, it would rather quickly stop moving.
QUOTE
But you are also talking about the power here. It kinda exists outside of the normal rules of physics as we understand them, so wouldn't it be safe to assume that the weave creates a sort of equilibrium that protects the people passing through?
That's actually a decent explaination given that we haven't really heard of much effect of pressure change in the books.

As to the floating/event horizon issue, it wasn't a question. Rather I was pointing out a fun little spacial cunundrum (sp?) that results from the possibilities of connecting various points in space. It's just a fun little mental exercise in theoretical spacial geometry. Similar to creating a gateway in front of you that has its other end open behind you; you could look forward and see an infinite number of "you's" extending in front of you. Heck, you could even reach through and touch yourself on the shoulder.

And in the end, they really don't matter. Admittedly, they would perhaps have been better placed on the general discussion board rather than here on the RPG board. But the gateway on a boat question could have game relevance. tongue.gif


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Patterns in the Weave: Aermon, son of Hamiel, son of Kamm, Male Ogier Wanderer 1
This Ogier left on a Grove-tour with his Greatfather, and he hopes to replenish the decimated Groves.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Duty is as heavy as a mountain, death as light as a feather.
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Aleshandre
Posted: Feb 25 2004, 02:55 PM
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I agree that the occilations of perpetual falling would eventualy cause a floating effect, but only if the object is moving in a nearly vertical direction to the pull of gravity; otherwise, the object would be projected toward the opposite edge of the exit gateway, thereby either contacting with the edge and being severed, or landing on the ground near the outside of the gateway.

I believe that the pressure difference would cause a distortion in in both directions in an attempt to equalize pressure. If the difference in pressure was significant enough, it could create drastic results (sea level to vaccuum for example). The resulting variation in pressure would blow air (or water) through the opening at a high rate to try to reach equilibrium. In the case of moving from a high pressure area to a low pressure area, there would be a wind in the low pressure area and anything near the opening would experience a suction like effect, which if strong enough would literally blow them trough the gateway. If for example a gateway was opened from the lowest point in the Marianis trench to the highest point on Mt Everest, there would be a massive pressure difference between the two points and the oceans would quickly surge into the gateway to attempt equilibrium, creating a torrent in the direction of the gateway openings, but constantly be compelled downward toward the start point, creating the most spectacular waterfall ever seen (until Asia is completely eroded into the trench, covering the entry gateway).


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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 25 2004, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (Aleshandre @ Feb 25 2004, 03:55 AM)
I agree that the occilations of perpetual falling would eventualy cause a floating effect, but only if the object is moving in a nearly vertical direction to the pull of gravity; otherwise, the object would be projected toward the opposite edge of the exit gateway, thereby either contacting with the edge and being severed, or landing on the ground near the outside of the gateway.

I believe that the pressure difference would cause a distortion in in both directions in an attempt to equalize pressure. If the difference in pressure was significant enough, it could create drastic results (sea level to vaccuum for example). The resulting variation in pressure would blow air (or water) through the opening at a high rate to try to reach equilibrium. In the case of moving from a high pressure area to a low pressure area, there would be a wind in the low pressure area and anything near the opening would experience a suction like effect, which if strong enough would literally blow them trough the gateway. If for example a gateway was opened from the lowest point in the Marianis trench to the highest point on Mt Everest, there would be a massive pressure difference between the two points and the oceans would quickly surge into the gateway to attempt equilibrium, creating a torrent in the direction of the gateway openings, but constantly be compelled downward toward the start point, creating the most spectacular waterfall ever seen (until Asia is completely eroded into the trench, covering the entry gateway).

blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif unsure.gif

...
yeah, what he said!

cool.gif *smooth, adam, very smooth! nice recovery!*


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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this rant's done.

Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish partner GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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Targul
Posted: Feb 25 2004, 06:58 PM
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That is true. However because we can't describe the Power using our laws of physics I am going to have to stick with my previous statement and say that the power should create a sort of equilibrium automatically when a portal is opened.


--------------------
Wait, if I DID evil, and you guys here ARE evil. Then shouldn't you be showering me with rewards and concubines, etc.?
This is Hell we're big on irony here.
Then I'm sure you'll appreciate what is going to occur.
I'm dead, so this is some egoscopic projection of myself?
Correct, but I hardly see what...
So without any fleshy meats to slow me down, how long do you REALLY think it'll take for me to usurp your entire kingdom?
I have the entire legions of Hell at my command
Enjoy it while you can, Skippy.

-Black Mage in Hell (8-bit theater style)
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Axel
Posted: Feb 25 2004, 07:17 PM
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I'm not going to go to such extremes, but I would say that if you stepped through a gateway from a point of low elevation, to a point of high elevation you would feel something. Basically the pressure change would result in the same sort of popped ear you feel on an airplane. It doesn't appear in the books largely because the characters are never going through a major elevation change.
Of course if you were to go from the blistering heat of the daytime in the Waste straight to the freezing cold of the Seanchan north, you'd probably die simply from the massive temperature change.


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