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> White Wolf Magic and WoT
TwangCat
Posted: Jun 15 2004, 02:44 PM
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Has anyone tried to convert WoT magic system to the White Wolf magic system? I play mage and I agree with the people who have said that the ww magic system would have more of a WoT feel. Anyways I just wanted to know if anyone had worked on this before my group and I try to create it.

Responses in the negative from the more involved people would also help to clarify this question.
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 05:49 AM
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I love White Wolf, and Mage's sphere system could be used. Although I think that having something like the way disciplines are used with leeches might fit a little bit better. Affinities could be used somewhat like the way Realms are used for fairies, but as limits instead of targets. I think it would work quite nicely.
In fact, between you and me, I think the White Wolf system would work really well for Wheel of Time. Don't say that to everyone else though. Nobody seems to want to change the system at all, especially so dramatically. Quite a while ago I started a conversion for D&D to WW's system, and I think it would work great. Talents (Disciplines) and Affinities (Realms) for channelers, and a great emphasis on non-combat attributes and abilities. Also, I think you could come up with some really cool backgrounds.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 01:47 PM
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I'd really like to see that. I was into WW's stuff for awhile but never really played it since no one in my local gaming community (of the time) was interested. I downloaded pretty much everything I could off the net and had a general feel for the systems but I'll admit to not knowing the mechanics of the Mage Sphere system too well.

I always though WoT magic would be better represented by the same system used as Psionics instead of the spell slot system, but then again I've always prefered point based over slot type systems anyway.


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drothgery
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 03:49 PM
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It's pretty clear that the Expanded Psionics Handbook was heavily influenced by WoT; augmentations are just WoT's sliding-level weaves using power points, and a lot of terminology from d20 WoT showed up in the XPH as well. Having said that, if I were rebuilding WoT from the ground up, the channeler class would use power points rather than weave slots.

I'm not a big fan of WW-style magic because the mechanics of spell effects aren't defined all that much, IIRC.


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 06:46 PM
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I converted the One Power to a weave point system. I thought it worked really well as well.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 07:33 PM
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Someone please share, been dieing to get my hands on a weave point system heh.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 09:56 PM
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You can download Ars Magica 4th ed on www.rpgnow.com for free. It works just like the WW mage system.

I really want to make some sort of free form magic system that uses d20 as it's rule mechanic. I ma just not talented enough to work it out. Something that falls somewhere between what is the WoT system and the system used for games like Ars Magica and Mage.

I am just wishing.


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drothgery
Posted: Jun 16 2004, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE (Entropic_existence @ Jun 16 2004, 11:33 AM)
Someone please share, been dying to get my hands on a weave point system heh.

Quick & dirty weave point system, if you've got access to an XPH...

1) Treat all weaves as powers of the same level, which cost 2 * level - 1 power points, except for weaves cast at 0-level effect (for 0-level weaves, see below).
2) Treat "sliding" weaves as augmentable, with each 1 level increase costing 2 more power points and adding +1 to the save DC.
3) Having all the relevant affinities reduces the cost of a weave by two power points; having none increases the cost by two power points.
4) No 1st-level or higher weave can ever cost less than 1 power point.
5) You can cast a number of 0-level weaves per day for free equal to your primary channeling ability modifier + your secondary channeling ability modifier. After that, 0-level weaves cost 1 point.
6) Initiates, wilders, and my generic channeler use the psion power point progression.
7) You only get bonus power points for your primary channeling stat (int for initiates; wis for wilders and my generic channeler).

This post has been edited by drothgery on Jun 16 2004, 10:36 PM


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TwangCat
Posted: Jun 17 2004, 05:07 AM
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QUOTE (Two Rivers Wolfbrother @ Jun 16 2004, 05:49 AM)
I love White Wolf, and Mage's sphere system could be used. Although I think that having something like the way disciplines are used with leeches might fit a little bit better. Affinities could be used somewhat like the way Realms are used for fairies, but as limits instead of targets. I think it would work quite nicely.
In fact, between you and me, I think the White Wolf system would work really well for Wheel of Time. Don't say that to everyone else though. Nobody seems to want to change the system at all, especially so dramatically. Quite a while ago I started a conversion for D&D to WW's system, and I think it would work great. Talents (Disciplines) and Affinities (Realms) for channelers, and a great emphasis on non-combat attributes and abilities. Also, I think you could come up with some really cool backgrounds.

You sound like you are much more informed about this than I am, I've only played mage and only that for about a year now. What did you mean by 'the way disciplines are used with leeches' and 'Realms are used for fairies but as limits instead of targets'.
Fear not the people I'm working with know WW much better than I do but if you could tell me or show me where to read to understand what you are talking about I'd really appreciate it. We really might be building this system from the ground up. So lets shatter some walls!
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amylrins_peril
Posted: Jun 17 2004, 06:47 AM
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Sounds intriguing. How does overchanneling work. The wilder in my group attempts that quite often.
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Jun 17 2004, 08:53 AM
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Sorry, I guess I assumed you'd know. Disciplines are what vampires (I played Werewolf: the Apocalypse mainly, or at least werewolves, and leeches is a derogatory term for them) use. There are limitless possibilities for Disciplines (so far as I know), but the most common ones are in the Vampire: the Masquerade book. They are kinda like spheres, but only in kind of the way that, um, domains for clerics are like schools for wizards. Just sort of a way of doing things I guess.
But yeah, it would take a while to explain the way Disciplines work, and, like I said, I played Werewolf.
Changelings use Realms and Arts. Arts are more like schools of magic, while Realms affect what they can be cast on. For example, if you have dots in the Realms Prop and Fae, you can use your magic to affect items (props) and other changelings (fae). There are a handful.
What I was getting at was: let's replace the word "Discipline" with "Talent." Let's say one Talent is Elementalism. Now, that doesn't affect at all what Affinities you have. Those are decided by your "Affinities." There are five, of course. Now, I don't really know how much this would follow the books, but in Changeling, the more dots you have in a realm, the more obscure or powerful the target can be. For example, having one dot in Prop means you can affect common, typical things that can be worn to five dots being a complex electronic machine. So for Talents, maybe the more you have, the better you become at channeling when that Affinity is involved.
For strength in the One Power, you could do a sort of variation of the Blood Point system, meaning you spend a certain number of Power or Weave or Channeling points for every channeled weave, and you can run out, which means you have to start overchanneling and risk those effects. You could also make it that you can't channel a weave that requires more Weave Points than the number of dots you have in the Talent and Affinity(s) or something.
Not too sure how that would work. This is just rolling out of the top of my head.
I think an interesting background (WW backgrounds, not WoTd20 backgroundswould be Dreamer, and another would be Treasure (5 dots = ter'angreal or sa'angreal). Title could be another one.
This is all just sorta my initial thoughts. I'll look more into it as I get time.


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Jun 17 2004, 09:07 AM
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As for the Weave Point system related to d20 Psionics or Unearthed Arcana spell point system, overchanneling would work much in the same way. If you run out of points, you must overchannel to do anything with the One Power. Also, you have a maximum weave level, and if you channel over that level (using the same rules for the original system for limitations and such) you must overchannel. Here's some tables and notes I came up with for channeling with this system.

The initiate and wilder are the channeler classes. They use weave points, and the number of weave points a channeler has increases as she gains in level.
Should a character cross-class between initiate and wilder, you add the number of weave points that class provides. Consult the following list for maximum weave level no matter what the character's class or combination of classes is.


Table: Maximum Weave Level
Channeler Level Max Weave Level
1 1st
2 1st
3 2nd
4 2nd
5 3rd
6 3rd
7 4th
8 4th
9 5th
10 5th
11 6th
12 6th
13 7th
14 7th
15 8th
16 8th
17 9th
18 9th
19 9th
20 9th

This is how much a weave costs in weave points.

Table: Weave Point Cost
Weave Level Weave Points Cost
0 0*
1th 1
2th 3
3th 5
4th 7
5th 9
6th 11
7th 13
8th 15
9th 17
10th 19
11th 21
12th 23
13th 25
* Level 0 weaves cost no points to use. If a channeler is capable of channeling 0-level weaves, she can channel a number of 0-level weaves each day equal to three + the number of weave points gained by her primary channeling class at 1st level. After that, each level 0 weave costs a point to cast.

And here are some new channeling feats.

Extra Weave Points (Channeling)
You gain more weave points.
Benefit: You gain 2 more weave points.
Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times, each time gaining a number of weave points equal to the previous gain +1.

Great Capacity (Channeling)
You have the capacity to channel more weaves than other channelers.
Benefit: The weave point cost of individual weaves is reduced by one. This cannot reduce the weave point cost of a weave below one, and does not affect the number of 0-level weaves that can be cast per day.

Power Surge (Channeling)
You can overchannel better and more safely than other channelers.
Benefit: You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Concentration checks when overchanneling, and a +1 on the Fortitude save to avoid damage from failed overchanneling attempts.

Quicken Weave (Channeling)
You can channel weaves more quickly than other channelers.
Benefit: Channeling a quickened weave is a free action. You can perform another action, even channeling another weave, in the same round as you cast a quickened weave. You may cast only one quickened weave per round. A weave whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.
Using this feat increases the weave point cost of the weave by 6. The weave?s total cost cannot exceed your channeler level.
Channeling a quickened weave doesn?t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Strong in the One Power (Channeling)
You are very strong in the One Power, and have the potential to be a very potent channeler.
Benefit: You gain one weave point at each level increase more than members of that class would normally be allowed. For example, Kassendra, a 1st-level initiate with this feat going on to 2nd level would gain 3 weave points instead of 2, making her total weave points per day 5.
Special: You may only take this feat at 1st level.

Weave Points per Day

Initiate - Wilder
2 - 0*
4 - 0*
7 - 1
11 - 5
16 - 6
24 - 9
33 - 14
44 - 17
56 - 22
72 - 29
88 - 34
104 - 41
120 - 50
136 - 57
152 - 67
168 - 81
184 - 95
200 - 113
216 - 133
232 - 144

* The wilder gains no power points from his class at 1st or 2nd level. However, he does add any bonus power points gained from a high Intelligence score, feats, or other sources to his reserve. He can use these points (if any) to manifest his weaves.

So, that's what I took from Unearthed Arcana and Psionics SRD. I think it fits the way things work in the novels better, and makes it so that a lot of channeling can be done in a little span of time to wear you out, or a little over the whole day, much like in the books!
There's a very good vitalizing system to govern fatigue on page 156 of Unearthed Arcana that would work extremely well with a points system (it was designed for that) and would reflect the exhaustion that channelers go through by channeling. I'd type it up, but it's long and I don't even know if this is going to be popular.


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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jun 17 2004, 11:40 AM
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I really liked that two rivers. Unfortunately I lost my Psionics handbook a few years ago, and haven't bought the expanded one yet. But I'm thinking of several good possibilities including the use of something akin to the Psychic Warrior class. Good stuff.


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Jun 17 2004, 09:01 PM
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You don't really need the Psionics Handbook, in my opinion. Most of the stuff's similar to the weave system in Wheel of Time, such as weave level, overchanneling, things like that, and everything else is basically just new charts and such.


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TwangCat
Posted: Jun 18 2004, 05:35 PM
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Here's an update on what we've done so far for the conversion. There are going to be 5 dots for each affinity. Now say normal fire ball at lvl 2 is 5ft radius and does 2d6 + chaneller level. In the new system that would require 1 dot in fire and 1 dot in air. Now say you wanted make it much bigger you could increase fire and air equally or if you wanted to do less damage over a larger area (say if you were fighting a lot of little things with low hp) you could just increase air and leave fire at the level it was. In this way the system becomes a little more flexiable to making weaves more creative.
This is going to be a one power stat and if ever you use more cummulitive dots in the affinities than you have in your one power stat then you must roll a stamina roll or risk suffering fatigue.
I haven't figured out yet how to make meele combat work without having all the combat characters lose a lot of power.
We have a very basic character sheet, it's definatly a beta verson, if you guys want me to post it here just tell me how to attach a document and I'll do it.

If anyone has any comments or suggestions they are more than welcome.
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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: Jun 18 2004, 07:38 PM
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How would the melee combat system make the combat-oriented characters lose a lot of power?
I'd like to see the character sheet. If nobody else does, you could email it to me (brundawger@yahoo.com).
For combat, here's what I'd do. Use Talents, Skills, and Knowledges from only the Dark Ages-based games (Archery not Firearms, Ride not Drive, Academics not Computers). Then, have a list of specific weapon styles (Axes and Picks, Blades, Blunt, Flexible, and Polearms) related to the melee ability. Say, every dot in melee allows three dots in this group, and use those instead. This can basically mean mastery of a specific type of weapon.
If you want to make combat-oriented characters even more powerful, make a "Fury" ability that works like a werewolf's "Rage" (and like Willpower for everyone). Make it so that you can use the Fury points, for, say, extra attacks in a round, a boost in strength or stamina, etc. Then, you just give the armsman and woodsman like 4 points in Fury, Algai'd'siswai 3, wanderer, noble, and wilder 2, and initiate 1.
You could also rule that initiates cannot take more than one dot in melee or archery or brawl.
Maybe (in keeping with the Blademaster idea), you could have weapon techniques that work like Werewolf gifts. Basically, each move increases initiative, accuracy, damage, move, or something special, and there's really no limit to how many you can know, you just gotta go learn them.
There's a few ideas. There's so many more you could do, too.


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