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> Canon problems, When canon doesn't make sense...
LuciusT
Posted: Jul 3 2004, 04:43 PM
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I'm working on writing up my notes for WoT, so that I don't forget things between now and whenever I start my next campaign. I've run across a few things, over the years of trying to stay true to the WoT canon, that don't make sense to me. None of these are worldbreakers. They're just things that don't immediately "click" in my mind. So, I was wondering what other people's thoughts on these were.


Malkier, a question of geography:

I tried to find some info about the geography of Malkier. There is a bit, mentioned in the later chapters of Eye of the World... but it doesn't make sense to me. Our heroes leave Fal Dara in the morning, cross into the Blight and make camp within sight of the Seven Towers, the capitol of Malkier, by nightfall. Moiraine plans to cross the High Passes of the Mountains of Dhoom at noon the next day.

So Malkier, in the vacinity of the capitol, is roughly a day to a day and half's ride across? Maybe 40 - 60 miles in width? We also know that Malkier covered the northern border of Shienar and at least of Arafel: a distance of 400 - 600 miles.

So, is Malkier a long narrow country? Or perhaps a jagged, irregular one with spurs of Mountains of Dhoom extended down into it? Or perhaps these dimensions are simply the result of RJ wanting to get to end of the story quickly without a lot of tedious messing around in the Blight?

Shienar, on fortresses:

Shienar is a proud Borderland nation with a long history of holding back the Blight... expect it is and isn't. Until roughly 50 years before the novels, Shienar's northern border was Malkier. I have no problem with the Shienaran keeping their eyes on the Blight and sending men to fight and die in the war against the Shadow.

What I wonder is, why is Fal Dara a fortress? What was it built to defend against if Malkier guards the Blightborder?

Aes Sedai, a question of numbers:

There are roughly 900 - 1200 Aes Sedai in the world, depending on when exactly we're talking about. In New Spring, we learn that, at least while Moiriainne was an Accepted, roughly 1/3 of the Aes Sedai where in the Tower while 2/3 where out and about in the world.

For talking purposes, let's say there are 1000 Aes Sedai. Let's say 350 reside in Tar Valon and 650 are out in the world. There are 13 great nations in the world, plus a handful of city states and a inhabited extra-national regions. Of course, Aes Sedai are outlawed in at least one of these nations, highly restricted in some and greatly respected in others. But for rough purposes let's call it 650 Aes Sedai divded between 13 nations... or 50 Aes Sedai per nation.

50 Aes Sedai per nation? The seems like a lot, given the number of Aes Sedai we see (or rather don't see) in the early books. I suppose that in a nation with a population of a few million, covering a huge area, 50 Aes Sedai isn't that many... except, Aes Sedai don't really seem to blend in. So, why don't we see more Aes Sedai and what are they all up to?
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Posted: Jul 3 2004, 05:31 PM
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I have a theory about Malkier. If it's a globe world then those nations would be smaller to the top. Flat maps don't convay that well. So Malkier could cover that area if it is that near to the top of the world. Of course I haven't put nearly the amount of thought into this that you have.
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 3 2004, 08:27 PM
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I've had the same problem as you with Malkier Lucius, especially since it has been shown on maps as well. Looking at the maps in the books shows a slightly dotted area north of shienar that covers tarwin's gap and some area around it denoted as Malkier...but it seems to small. Also apparently in some versions of Eye of the World (not mine) it is shown in a different area. I'd like to know exactly where it's borders where and exactly how much area it covered.

Shienar hasn't been a borderland nation in truth very long, really only about 40 years. But even during the time of Malkier I think Shienar was considered one of the borderlands, even though it didn't lie on the blightborder. Fal Dara was probably built as a fortress simply due to the borderland mindset. Never mind that there may still have been occassional raids that made it through Malkier and into Shienar. Plus the Aiel raid along the eastern marches of the country through the Niamh passes and had done so since long before the Aiel War.


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bmtc
Posted: Jul 3 2004, 11:16 PM
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a couple of thoughts on aes sedai...

I am sure some of them go covert (although I couldn't see very many doing that, not a very sedai thing to do)

Also, I think a large number of them work behind the scenes, and are kept unknown.

For example, most rulers have an Aes Sedai advisor or two, but do not share this fact with the rest of the world. Perhaps this is not limited to rulers, but also to heads of houses, etc. Unless one has had prior experience with Aes Sedai, they wouldn't recognize the ageless face.

Also, perhaps some are exploring unpopulated areas. There were a lot of ter'angreal found in areas like the caralain grass, and maybe some folk are still searching for them.

And, I know, this only accounts for maybe 10 in a country, but that is still some accounted for.
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drothgery
Posted: Jul 4 2004, 12:49 AM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ Jul 3 2004, 06:43 AM)
Aes Sedai, a question of numbers:

There are roughly 900 - 1200 Aes Sedai in the world, depending on when exactly we're talking about. In New Spring, we learn that, at least while Moiriainne was an Accepted, roughly 1/3 of the Aes Sedai where in the Tower while 2/3 where out and about in the world.

For talking purposes, let's say there are 1000 Aes Sedai. Let's say 350 reside in Tar Valon and 650 are out in the world. There are 13 great nations in the world, plus a handful of city states and a inhabited extra-national regions. Of course, Aes Sedai are outlawed in at least one of these nations, highly restricted in some and greatly respected in others. But for rough purposes let's call it 650 Aes Sedai divded between 13 nations... or 50 Aes Sedai per nation.

50 Aes Sedai per nation? The seems like a lot, given the number of Aes Sedai we see (or rather don't see) in the early books. I suppose that in a nation with a population of a few million, covering a huge area, 50 Aes Sedai isn't that many... except, Aes Sedai don't really seem to blend in. So, why don't we see more Aes Sedai and what are they all up to?

If you don't travel in the same circles as Aes Sedai, it's pretty easy to avoid running into them. Blues and Greys will be involved with nobles and politics, so if you don't go near a palace, you won't see them (Blues might be among commoners, but they'll probably be in disguise if they are). It's hard to see Reds outside of Tar Valon except on a permanent advisor's job, or chasing after a man who can channel (and so always encamped with other AS and soldiers). Greens, it goes without saying, are going to be in the Borderlands more often than not, so the first three books, which were mostly in the south, weren't exactly taking place in areas where you're likely to run into one. Browns would either be chasing down some artifact, or in one of the Great Libraries; if you don't frequent such places, you won't see them. And neither Whites nor Yellows leave the Tower much at all.

Besides, fifty people in a country the size of Andor? It's extremely unlikely that you'd run into one by chance. Heck, fifty people in a city the size of Caemlyn (with a population in the hundreds of thousands) are difficult to run into by chance; note that Rand only encountered one other AS while in the city, while dozens were in and around the city, and he's ta'veren.

About the only place where AS should have been, and weren't, was at Fal Dara. Given the Greens mentality, a sister or three should be in every major town on the Blightborder, and a dozen or so in each Borderland capital.


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LuciusT
Posted: Jul 7 2004, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (drothgery @ Jul 3 2004, 10:49 PM)
Besides, fifty people in a country the size of Andor? It's extremely unlikely that you'd run into one by chance.

I submit that a woman, arrogent as a queen on her throne and as likely as not accompanied by a man who is somewhere between a wolf with a sword and Death herself, are likely to draw some notice. Fifty such women, each independently pursuing their own mysterious agendas, are likely to cause some pretty significant ripples, IMO.

OTOH, I suspect that the simple belief that one rarely sees an Aes Sedai would be the best camouflage for such women. After all, if one rarely (if ever) sees an Aes Sedai surely that woman, arrogent as a queen on her throne and accompanied by a man who is somewhere between a wolf with a sword and Death herself, can't be an Aes Sedai.

As an aside, I also submit that I can see the Reds spending a great deal of time outside of the Tower. After all one can't expect every male channeler to be a Logain or a Taim, who kindly annouces his presence by raising the Dragon Banner, gathering armies and laying towns to waste with pillars of Fire from the sky. I'd personally expect the Reds to spend a lot of time out in the world, doing the detective work necessary to locate those male channelers who make themselves known only through the occational odd happening or strange event.
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Niveus
Posted: Jul 7 2004, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE

OTOH, I suspect that the simple belief that one rarely sees an Aes Sedai would be the best camouflage for such women. After all, if one rarely (if ever) sees an Aes Sedai surely that woman, arrogent as a queen on her throne and accompanied by a man who is somewhere between a wolf with a sword and Death herself, can't be an Aes Sedai.


as each sister is on her own agenda they may or may not be in alighment with any other given sister they would try to conceal there presance or at the very least not fluant there aes sedaiism (new word) as doing so may and probably will out any plans and schemes in danger of failing due to out side interferance via sisters less then eunthusiastic about them


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LuciusT
Posted: Jul 7 2004, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE (Niveus @ Jul 7 2004, 08:20 PM)
as each sister is on her own agenda they may or may not be in alighment with any other given sister they would try to conceal there presance or at the very least not fluant there aes sedaiism (new word) as doing so may and probably will out any plans and schemes in danger of failing due to out side interferance via sisters less then eunthusiastic about them

Except, of course, that such interference is expressly forbidden by Aes Sedai tradition... Which in no way invalidates your point. smile.gif
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 7 2004, 11:21 PM
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Look at when Moriane and Lan are travelling with the Two Rivers crew in the first book, no one knows or even suspects she is Aes Sedai unless specifically told. The bumpkins in the Two Rivers didn't until the attack at Winternight. The thing is most people have no experience with Aes Sedai and they are just a big of a story/legend as Trollocs and Fade's to those people. They don't recognize the Ageless face (most of the time people just take Aes Sedai as young looking), and people think Nobles and rich folk are arrogant and strange anyway.

As for Malkier (again) I am re-reading the early books...the map is in Eye of the World and shows how Malkier stretched across the top of Shienar and Arafel between their borders and the Mountains of Dhoom. The Seven Towers weren't very far north of Fal Dara, seems perfectly reasonable looking at that map and re-reading the book.


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drothgery
Posted: Jul 7 2004, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ Jul 7 2004, 12:15 PM)
QUOTE (drothgery @ Jul 3 2004, 10:49 PM)
Besides, fifty people in a country the size of Andor? It's extremely unlikely that you'd run into one by chance.

I submit that a woman, arrogent as a queen on her throne and as likely as not accompanied by a man who is somewhere between a wolf with a sword and Death herself, are likely to draw some notice. Fifty such women, each independently pursuing their own mysterious agendas, are likely to cause some pretty significant ripples, IMO.

I think you're vastly underestimating the effect of crowds and simple distance on masking someone's presense. When the President comes to San Diego (and he's been here a few times in the last year or two), the only way I know it is because of an item in the news. Granted, San Diego has ten times as many people as Caemlyn, and is a pretty sprawling city, but GWB is accompanied by a huge entourage of security, advisors, and reporters anywhere he goes.


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LuciusT
Posted: Jul 8 2004, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (drothgery @ Jul 7 2004, 09:38 PM)
I think you're vastly underestimating the effect of crowds and simple distance on masking someone's presense. When the President comes to San Diego (and he's been here a few times in the last year or two), the only way I know it is because of an item in the news. Granted, San Diego has ten times as many people as Caemlyn, and is a pretty sprawling city, but GWB is accompanied by a huge entourage of security, advisors, and reporters anywhere he goes.

Yeah, but OTOH, when the president comes to town, it makes the news. When Moiraine and Lan arrived in Emond's Field, it hit the children's rumor mill immediately and there was at least some sepeculation that they were Aes Sedai and Warder. Rumors and speculation... that's the kind of ripples I'm talking about. smile.gif
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bmtc
Posted: Jul 8 2004, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
as each sister is on her own agenda they may or may not be in alighment with any other given sister they would try to conceal there presance or at the very least not fluant there aes sedaiism (new word) as doing so may and probably will out any plans and schemes in danger of failing due to out side interferance via sisters less then eunthusiastic about them 



Except, of course, that such interference is expressly forbidden by Aes Sedai tradition... Which in no way invalidates your point.


Umm, I don't care what is against tradition, Aes Sedai still sometimes mess with each other's plots if it doesn't benefit their goals. They are often scheming to try to find out what others are doing.


Oh, and another thing, a large city like Caemlyn is filled with Rumors. And Caemlyn is a fairly uneventful city. Imagine Bandar Eban or Cairhien! Just cuz Aes Sedai are plotting for thier own ends, and usually (note, many are not) guarded by a strong fighter does not mean that they will stand out. They might merely be mistaken for a noble or the like, or a rich traveller. In Cairhien, I think they would blend right in. Another note, There would be a higher concentration then usual in the borderlands, and lower ones in Tear and Amadicia...

This post has been edited by bmtc on Jul 8 2004, 07:55 PM
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drothgery
Posted: Jul 8 2004, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ Jul 8 2004, 07:45 AM)
Yeah, but OTOH, when the president comes to town, it makes the news. When Moiraine and Lan arrived in Emond's Field, it hit the children's rumor mill immediately and there was at least some sepeculation that they were Aes Sedai and Warder. Rumors and speculation... that's the kind of ripples I'm talking about. smile.gif

Emond's Field, especially at the time, was an extremely small, extremely isolated village. Everyone knew everyone else, and was at least familiar with most of the families in Deven Ride and Watch Hill. Strangers were rare enough that the regular peddlers were a big deal, and anything else was shockingly unusual. And neither Moiraine nor Lan made any attempt to look like anyone they'd encounter in a village. Hence, tons of speculation. In a place where strangers are seen frequently, and a noblewoman or rich merchant and her guard are common, everyday things, Aes Sedai don't stick out nearly as much, unless they're trying to.


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Niveus
Posted: Jul 8 2004, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE
Malkier, a question of geography:

I tried to find some info about the geography of Malkier. There is a bit, mentioned in the later chapters of Eye of the World... but it doesn't make sense to me. Our heroes leave Fal Dara in the morning, cross into the Blight and make camp within sight of the Seven Towers, the capitol of Malkier, by nightfall. Moiraine plans to cross the High Passes of the Mountains of Dhoom at noon the next day.

So Malkier, in the vacinity of the capitol, is roughly a day to a day and half's ride across? Maybe 40 - 60 miles in width? We also know that Malkier covered the northern border of Shienar and at least of Arafel: a distance of 400 - 600 miles.

So, is Malkier a long narrow country? Or perhaps a jagged, irregular one with spurs of Mountains of Dhoom extended down into it? Or perhaps these dimensions are simply the result of RJ wanting to get to end of the story quickly without a lot of tedious messing around in the Blight?


picture the blight like a lake or ocean it isnt a circle a square etc.. Malkier was on a pennisulla reaching into the blight it had the blight on all sides save one. It was a true Border land


crappy ASCII grafic time


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what i am trying to show with this crappy ASCII Grafic is that even though Malkier is north of Fal Dara the blight was between them so both would have neen border lands.



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bmtc
Posted: Jul 9 2004, 12:52 AM
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where are y'all getting this info from? If you can remember where, I would like to get the source. (If not, I am fine, I understand.)
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Jul 9 2004, 01:38 AM
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Niveus, that isn't how the borders of Malkier were shown in the map in Eye of the World. (Page 687 in the Paperback edition) Although this only shows the border between the borderlands of today and the Blight. Malkier did stretch across the entirity of the northern border of Shienar and covered at least part of Arafel's current northern border. Shienar sent her warriors into Malkier to fight the Shadow, and did so as any other border nation, but it shared no border with the blight. This is explicitly stated in Agelmar's conversation with The Two Rivers folk.


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Niveus
Posted: Jul 10 2004, 12:26 AM
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Hmmm, you might be right.
I vaguely recall a passage like that.


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 10 2004, 12:13 PM
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EotW, Chap 47, p 708 (paperback edition):

QUOTE
"We of Shienar call ourselves Bordermen, but fewer than fifty years ago, Shienar was not truly of the Borderlands. North of us, and of Arafel, was Malkier. The lances of Shienar rode north, but it was Malkier that held back the Blight. Malkier, Peace favor her memory, and the Light illumine her name."


As for Aes Sedai presence in the Borderlands, the evidence comes from the previous chapter, EotW, Chap 46, p 698:

QUOTE
Every king and council is sure a great thrust is coming out of the Blight, and every one of the Borderlands believes it is coming at them. None of their scouts, and none of the Warders, report Trolloc massing above their borders, as we have here, but they believe, and each is afraid to send fighting men elsewhere.


Who says Warders says Aes Sedai. Still remains the question of where they are, because a place like Fal Dara would certainly be a good place if you wanted to fight the blight forces all the more when an assault is expected very soon? There seems to be quite a lack of coordination between the White Tower and the borderlands. This lack of coordination is surely the reason why Aes Sedai were too late to save Malkier, and would also have been the end of Shienar if Rand hadn't intervened.

In fact the Aes Sedai precence seems completely random. Red certainly have hunting parties for channeling men, but don't seem to be very efficient (see Cadsuane finding much more male channelers than anyone else; Reds don't have the appropiate tools). And these Reds would always be accompanied by other Ajah sisters, to have warders with them. Such parties would always have at least 13 sisters in them. If you count 50 Aes Sedai per country, this would not make more than 3 parties per country, which is not a lot at all (compared to the size of the countries), plus a few Aes Sedai doing something else.
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LuciusT
Posted: Jul 10 2004, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE (Zinuk @ Jul 10 2004, 10:13 AM)
Who says Warders says Aes Sedai. Still remains the question of where they are, because a place like Fal Dara would certainly be a good place if you wanted to fight the blight forces all the more when an assault is expected very soon?

One thought that occured to me is that perhaps the Aes Sedai had abandoned Fal Dara as lost and fallen back to help defend Fal Moran. Perhaps they even abandoned Shienar altogether and were working to rally the other Borderlands to throw back the invasion after Shienar falls.
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bmtc
Posted: Jul 10 2004, 08:29 PM
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maybe they rode out with the army some, and just were not mentioned because of the vast size of the Shienaran army... (which was still dwarfed by the trolloc hordes)
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