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Axel |
Posted: May 2 2004, 12:04
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Freelance HTML coder (hint Aleshandre) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 218 Member No.: 54 Joined: 22-January 04 ![]() |
Trust me, the only stuff that WotC churns out that
isn't total shit is only quazi-mediocre at best. The D&D'ers don't get
it any better than the WoT'ers. Actually I think we get the advantage: the
only ones making our junk is us, so we actually have incentive to produce
decent materials unlike WotC which makes large amounts of worthless shit
for its games just trying to make a buck. As for the d20 magic system, like the entire 3rd edition D&D game it needs a serious overhaul (3.5 didn't come close to what was neccessary) The entire system is designed around roll-playing, and therefore follows easily predictable rules that make everything identical. While saving the assholes at WotC the trouble of being creative, this has the effect of ruining the most crucial of the DM's two jobs: that of storyteller. Since everything works the same all the time the wonder related to magic is gone. Channelers go from mysterious workers of the unseen forces to artillery on legs. Magic items fortunately don't suffer this as much, it WoT they are still reasonably difficult to find and therefore remain highly valuable and extremely rare. But for the weaves themselves... the best thing would be to limit the number of channelers in your game and ensure that each of them has a limited list of weaves. Make sure that weaves your PC's take make sense and were easily accessible. For example there's no reason for an apprentice Windfinder to know fireball, it would do her alot more harm than good and she wouldn't be used to manipulating fire in any case; hands of air however.... -------------------- Honorary Paladin of the Lawful Naughty If I seem to hate the d20 system, its only because I hate the system. Actually I just hate 3e, its biased me against the system. I rather like WoT. |
Aleshandre |
Posted: May 2 2004, 07:02
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 130 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Hey Axel, I dissagree with you on one point (that matters since we have different views on the D20 system vs AD&D in the first place). That is the idea that it "has the effect of ruining the DM's two most crucial jobs". I feel that it is quite the contrary, the DM now has more time to play the part of storyteller, because he now nolonger needs to worry about relearning a new system every time that he changes settings. It is much easier now to take a character from any D20 setting (Star Wars, D&D, WoT, Modern, Gamma World and a myriad of others by 3rd party publishers) and port them over into another with a minimum of changes to the character and not have to worry about balance issues. The only thing that a GM now has to worry about is the backstory and the events that she is planning on having transpire. Much like writing a book, any author can write in any genre without having to reinvent the entire genre. Only the important details related to setting need to be adjusted. In truth, it has always been the job of the GM to create the sense of wonder about magic and even the setting itself. The game mechanics are there with the sole purpose of preventing any one character from becoming the most powerful character in existance, without having to work for it. The rest of the details about any RPG are simply fluff to set the stage. -------------------- |
Entropic_existence |
Posted: May 3 2004, 03:24
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 116 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
You know personally I quite enjoy the WoT RPG as
written, I don't even think Prophecies is that bad. This despite the fact
that I consdier myself a pretty hardcore fan ![]() Channelers might be the mystical users of some unseen force in some of the cultures, but in many they are quite literally artillery with legs. I really don't see how the RPG changes this from the books. In my game I have a Wise One's Apprentice whose only offensive weapon is Harden Air. The rest of the time she uses her guile, intelligence, and creative use of other weaves to overcome even in combat situations, just like a Wise One would be expected to do. If you look at the Asha'man and a good majority of Damane they are trained as weapons first, the heavy artillery of the Wheel of Time if you will. In my opinion yea we could always add in a ton of more weaves that aren't combat related at all and thats pretty much enough needed to play in the setting as is with a channeler and have them be your typical Sedai and not a combat machine. -------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Primal Paladin22 |
Posted: May 3 2004, 04:22
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 200 Member No.: 96 Joined: 16-February 04 ![]() |
The thing is in a high fantasy game, think Arse
Magica, game balance is not really a focus of the game design. I
understand why peaple want game balance but I have found that as long as
the majority of the group are not dunder heads it really doesn't become a
problem. The real issue is that D&D is not a high fantasy game. Therefore, the WoT game, being based on D&D is really not a high fantasy game. The setting, as set forth by RJ, is very much a high fantasy setting. D20 works great for what is was made for, and it even turned out good with Star Wars. I dare anyone to say that WoTC put as much effort into WoT as they did the SW game. They just didn't. Maybe it was their fault, or maybe Lucas made himself more involed that did RJ. In any case I am having fun playing it as is to but then I have fun playing 3E. The truth is that I really am a woodsman kind of guy and not a channeler type. I love skills. I actually think that the channeling system has more of a high fan element thatn the standard spell system from D&D it just doesn't do it for me. I wish there was some way I could think of to make it do what I want it to do. I just havn't figured it out yet. You guys know what? I still have not gotten a real sraight answer on the topic of this thread. Do you guys think Cutting Lines of Fire is set at to high a level? ![]() Peace J -------------------- "Me... I'm doom on two legs, and you... you're a fish
among sharks." - said the submission fighter "Lancelot" to an arrogant and
unnamed scrub. |
Zifnab |
Posted: May 3 2004, 01:21
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 249 Member No.: 125 Joined: 3-April 04 ![]() |
See, I did answer. ![]() -------------------- Playing: Jen Farthen I use the word "totally" too much. I need to change it up and use a word that is different but has the same meaning. "Mitch, do you like submarine sandwhiches?" "All-encompassingly..." | ||
MagusRogue |
Posted: May 3 2004, 01:37
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![]() Village fool. Paid well. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 703 Member No.: 26 Joined: 16-January 04 ![]() |
Once again i just have to point out a few things
about Cutting. For one, i think its the only cone-area attack in the game
so far. Don't knock Cones... they can potentially hit more than a
fireball. you also don't have to worry about aiming it so it doesn't hit
you. Also, and this is just a revision i made to it, Cutting Lines of Fire should ignore all Hardness. This also means it'll ignore cover. In the books, ducking behind a wall did absolutely nothing to help avoid damage from Cutting Lines. no matter the material, it goes right through. So, when you look at it and compare it with other weaves, it really isn't that bad for its price. -------------------- Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this rant's
done. Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish partner GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed. |
Zarozynia |
Posted: May 3 2004, 02:50
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![]() Seer of Darkness ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 201 Member No.: 131 Joined: 10-April 04 ![]() |
I think that I agree with Aleshandre here, although
there are some problems with the D20 system, it is very very nice to be
able to go from one game to another without having to relearn everything.
I walked out of playing a year long starwars game as a character and was
able to walk into running a WoT game without having to learn anything
minus a few game mastering things as I definately know the world, and the
system is very similar. Do I think that what WoTC did was perfect? No way,
and whomever said that Wizards spent more time on StarWars is right, but
unfortunately...it makes sense. StarWars, being movie based, is always
going to have a wider fan base than books will. Sad but true. I do think that the world of the wheel of time is high fantasy, and I feel like the core role book does not adequentely work with what the one power is designed to be like in a thousand little ways that eventually add up to "wrong". My feeling has always been that the designers didn't spend enough time thinking about what the one power was like, instead they merely half way combined thier arcane magic from AD&D and the force from StarWars. They should have gone closer to the second while vearing totally away from the first, as weaving the one power is by no means arcane magic. This is the biggest reason that I like Prime Paladin's fatigue based channeling system, rather than claiming that somebody has a set number of weaves per day as if they were an arcane magic user who had to "learn" their weaves, it is closer to the users of the force which take subdual damage when using their powers. -------------------- Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing
experiment in writing/illustration/mythology Photographia Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog |
Entropic_existence |
Posted: May 3 2004, 04:29
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Breaker-of-horses-and-men ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 116 Member No.: 22 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Yea, as for Cutting Lines of Fire I'd agree with
Magus that adding it ignoring hardness should pretty much bring the weave
into line with the books. Cones are pretty nasty area of effects, since it
essentially keeps spreading out and potentially hitting a large number of
targets. I don't think it needs to eb toned down at all. The thing I'm
starting to learn from DM'ing, and from participating on this board is
that you have to take advantage of, and always consider, overchanneling.
It really bring Channelers up in power level in my opinion, and does
reflect the books somewhat. The Fatigue Based Channeling system is pretty
cool I will admit, and yes does more accurately reflect the books. I tend
not to get into too many House Rules in my games that radically alter the
system as written. I know I enjoy playing in it, as do my players,
although my group tends to be pretty combat oriented...not really into the
puzzle and political stuff too much but thats ok. We still manage to pull
some exceptional role playing out of it.
-------------------- What is dead can never
die. |
Primal Paladin22 |
Posted: May 3 2004, 04:44
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 200 Member No.: 96 Joined: 16-February 04 ![]() |
Thanks for the plug Z. I really don't have much
experiance with cone effects. When I went trough my dragon phase as a DM I
was stingy with breath weapon cause you only had 3 per day. I have not
used many since then. I'll read up on it. Peace J -------------------- "Me... I'm doom on two legs, and you... you're a fish
among sharks." - said the submission fighter "Lancelot" to an arrogant and
unnamed scrub. |
Axel |
Posted: May 3 2004, 08:28
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Freelance HTML coder (hint Aleshandre) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 218 Member No.: 54 Joined: 22-January 04 ![]() |
Aleshandre, the DM has two crucial jobs above all
others: that of Storyteller and of Referee. Now the d20 system may make
the second job easier, at least for those who switch games. However WotC's
lack of quality products has ensured that the first (and more important)
job is much more difficult. How can you play in a fantasy environment when
the mysterious workers of unseen powers have become artilery on legs? Yes
I realized that to the Seanchan the damane are just artillery on legs, but
even then the Sul'dam gain the respect most worlds give to the wizards,
they work mysterious forces no others can see. To someone who doesn't
channel all weaves should seem bizare and incredible, no matter
what they are. The fact is that no matter how simple a thing is if its
being done with the Power then it should impress those who cannot work it.
The way the rules are designed with the players always able to immediately
predict the outcome of any weave the instant it has been cast is conducive
to meta-game thinking. The best solution I can think of without a complete
rewrite of the rules is as the DM to ensure the characters never
know what weave has been cast, describe exactly what they can see and do
all rolls by yourself ensuring they have no idea what just happened. It
won't work for long, but it should help.
-------------------- Honorary Paladin of the Lawful Naughty If I seem to hate the d20 system, its only because I hate the system. Actually I just hate 3e, its biased me against the system. I rather like WoT. |
Aleshandre |
Posted: May 3 2004, 10:52
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Moderators Posts: 130 Member No.: 18 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
You are right, Axel, the small number of products for
the WoT game have made the job of storyteller more difficult. Fortunately,
we have this wonderful community to help us make that job easier with
several people who put months of effort into each entry that they make.
Unfortunately, the WoT setting is the one that has the most richness in
the story behind the game, yet it recieved significantly less support than
other games. Star Wars has the second highest level of committed resources
of all the games that WotC makes, giving those GMs the most flexibility
and the easiest time in the storytelling dept. Modern has more than WoT
had, but still leaves much to be desired in concrete setting specific
info. The thing about modern is that it was intended to be fairly generic,
so setting specific information was never the priority. Modern and WoT do
have one thing in common (besides the d20 system) both are designed to be
role-play heavy settings, where interaction and skills use are the most
important parts of the game. Although there are very few weaves that
channelers can learn that are not combat oriented, the other skills and
abilities that they can gain can take even the most high-powered combat
channeler and turn her into a true diplomat. I really don't see channelers
as walking artillery, since they gain so few really dangerous weaves at
lower levels (especially initiates).
-------------------- |
Orclord |
Posted: May 4 2004, 05:17
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Learned Master ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 20 Member No.: 136 Joined: 23-April 04 ![]() |
The damage for this spell does not seem to agree with
the level or the text. 2d12 hits is barely a scratch to any mid level
fighter/multiclassed fighter. The spell text (limited as it is) says that
this spell cleanly (and apparently instantly) cuts through wood, stone,
metal and flesh. If you played Rolemaster or MERP, this easily translates
into instant slash and/or heat criticals (not uncommon for a 7-9th level
spell in this system). For your other point, about not much thought being put into this game, I agree whole-heartedly. From what I have read here, the system is a re-hash of older material with "flavour added". Given that it was made by a company famous for the insideous "Magic: The Gathering" (and how much endless repetition was and probably still is in that waste of time and money), what is to be expected. I was hopeful and exited when I purchased this book, and started becoming more and more aggravated and disappointed as I read it. Having read over it some times now, I see that it needs a LOT of work to be tolerable, probably a new system. Given time, I think I'll try it in AD&D or more likely Rolemaster. Rolemaster's spell rules, I think, work better for WoTesque spell-casting anyway, giving the possibilities of access to different lists for different talents (for instance, some Aes Sedai have access to minor healing lists, while others (likely yellow and green ajah) could have access to better lists and/or high spells on the same lists.) application of background options (needed to be developed for the WoT world) could account for affinities, talents, and differences in channeling ability. That's my take anyway. |
Mantyluoto |
Posted: May 4 2004, 04:16
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![]() New Monster: Hairy Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 446 Member No.: 17 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
so you get an Arnsmen with a high Defence and cast Cutting lines of Fire at him it cuts through his armour!!!!! please tell me that i'm wrong? so do i ignore his armour bonus like the Blade of Fire weave or do i count it. -------------------- For Those About To Rock, We Salute You | ||
Zifnab |
Posted: May 4 2004, 04:51
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 249 Member No.: 125 Joined: 3-April 04 ![]() |
Maybe if there were no save it would be slightly
better. But it's still only 13 damage (avg) for a seventh level
weave. -------------------- Playing: Jen Farthen I use the word "totally" too much. I need to change it up and use a word that is different but has the same meaning. "Mitch, do you like submarine sandwhiches?" "All-encompassingly..." |
MagusRogue |
Posted: May 5 2004, 12:33
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![]() Village fool. Paid well. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 703 Member No.: 26 Joined: 16-January 04 ![]() |
ummm....... manty........ it's a cone effect.... armor (unless you're using Armor as DR) only adds to Defense.... thus against ANY area-attack weave, it's useless. Remember, if you're in the area, you make a reflex save for half. no attack roll. This post has been edited by MagusRogue on May 5 2004, 12:34 AM -------------------- Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this rant's
done. Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish partner GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed. | ||||
darkriders_shadow_hunter |
Posted: May 6 2004, 06:37
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Newbie ![]() Group: Members Posts: 8 Member No.: 140 Joined: 1-May 04 ![]() |
i just have one thing to say about cutting
lines -in our game we lowered the spell level by 1, but that was it. It is a spell designed to take out puds without having to worry about hitting yourself. True for it's level it dosn't do a lot of damage, but it is a cone and can hit a heck of a lot more people |
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