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> Errata Clarification - help!, Multi-classing Wilder/Initiate conflict
MagusRogue
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 03:59 AM
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I know sharn... doesn't mean i gotta like the offical rulings (how many do??) tongue.gif


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jan 27 2004, 02:31 PM
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I know. wink.gif


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 06:02 AM
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for whoever it was that was asking which ability score to use with multyclass Initiate/ wilder, in the back of PotD it says that you cast as an initiate, and in the next sentence is wherte it says that you gain weaves as per their table, its something that was not placed in the FAQ for some reason. anyways since you cast weaves as an initiate, the highest weaves you can cast and the save dc for those weaves is based on inteligence. thus most wilders multyclassing into initiates will suffer as far as highest spell they can cast and dc's.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (Kakita Aramoro @ Feb 3 2004, 01:02 AM)
for whoever it was that was asking which ability score to use with multyclass Initiate/ wilder, in the back of PotD it says that you cast as an initiate, and in the next sentence is wherte it says that you gain weaves as per their table, its something that was not placed in the FAQ for some reason. anyways since you cast weaves as an initiate, the highest weaves you can cast and the save dc for those weaves is based on inteligence. thus most wilders multyclassing into initiates will suffer as far as highest spell they can cast and dc's.

didn't notice that. good. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Feb 3 2004, 12:57 PM


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (Kakita Aramoro @ Feb 3 2004, 06:02 AM)
for whoever it was that was asking which ability score to use with multyclass Initiate/ wilder, in the back of PotD it says that you cast as an initiate, and in the next sentence is wherte it says that you gain weaves as per their table, its something that was not placed in the FAQ for some reason. anyways since you cast weaves as an initiate, the highest weaves you can cast and the save dc for those weaves is based on inteligence. thus most wilders multyclassing into initiates will suffer as far as highest spell they can cast and dc's.

Hmm... No, I don't think so. My understanding of what Charles Ryan said is that multi-class wilder/initiates use the initiates weaves per day table (which is what you are refering to) but use the best of their ability scores for max level and save DC.
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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 06:00 PM
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Wouldn't the weave saving throws be based on the original class that was taken at the beginning, or would it be the class that was multiclassed into? I. personally, think that it would be the class that you start with, not the one you multiclass into. And when you multiclass into another channeling class (wilder or initiate), I think that it would be best to use the starting classes DC mods. So, if you started as a wilder and multiclassed into a Wilder/Initiate, you would have the DC mod of the Wilder, since you aren't really changing that much. But then again, since you are being trained as an Initiate wouldn't you use the new mods from the Initiate class? It makes sense in some instances, but not in others. But, what if you multiclassed from an Initiate class to an Aes Sedai, would you have new mods, no, so the same should be true for multiclassing a Wilder with Initiate class.

& I was wondering, how exactly does overchanneling work? I understand that it lets you cast a weave that's a higher level then the slot being used, but what are the mods & effects & consequences of doing so?



BTW, drothgery, what the hell does that mean? >>>dichotomies


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (Blaeric Fen @ Feb 3 2004, 06:00 PM)
& I was wondering, how exactly does overchanneling work? I understand that it lets you cast a weave that's a higher level then the slot being used, but what are the mods & effects & consequences of doing so?

Page 162 - 163 of the core rules.

While not clearly defined, my reading of the rules is that the casting level of the weave determines it's save DC and other level-variable effects. The slot level used to cast the weave is not relevent for these purposes.
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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 07:37 PM
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I understand the part where you can cast a weave over the used slot, but what are the consequences? fatigue, disorientation, loss of appitite (hehe, sorry, had to put that in there.)? OK, as of RIGHT NOW, I know that if a channeler overchannels they can cast a weave that is higher in casting levels than the level slot used, I just don't know the penalties for doing so.


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LuciusT
  Posted: Feb 3 2004, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (Blaeric Fen @ Feb 3 2004, 07:37 PM)
I understand the part where you can cast a weave over the used slot, but what are the consequences? fatigue, disorientation, loss of appitite (hehe, sorry, had to put that in there.)? OK, as of RIGHT NOW, I know that if a channeler overchannels they can cast a weave that is higher in casting levels than the level slot used, I just don't know the penalties for doing so.

I repeat (and I hate to repeat myself) page 162 - 163 of the core rulebook. It's actually pretty clear on that issue.
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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 07:48 PM
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sorry about that Lucius, I didn't have a chance to check the book since I left it at my house and no one else here has theirs, We're playing our DnD game right now & we're taking a break & another player was asking me about it.


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (Blaeric Fen @ Feb 3 2004, 07:48 PM)
sorry about that Lucius, I didn't have a chance to check the book since I left it at my house and no one else here has theirs, We're playing our DnD game right now & we're taking a break & another player was asking me about it.

I'm sorry, Blaeric. I've had to deal with one too many undergrads at the Reference Desk who can't be bothered to do their own research. No good reason to take it out on you.
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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 08:14 PM
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It's ok lucius, In a couple years I'll probably be in thesame situation.


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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ Feb 3 2004, 08:42 AM)
QUOTE (Kakita Aramoro @ Feb 3 2004, 06:02 AM)
for whoever it was that was asking which ability score to use with multyclass Initiate/ wilder, in the back of PotD it says that you cast as an initiate, and in the next sentence is wherte it says that you gain weaves as per their table, its something that was not placed in the FAQ for some reason. anyways since you cast weaves as an initiate, the highest weaves you can cast and the save dc for those weaves is based on inteligence. thus most wilders multyclassing into initiates will suffer as far as highest spell they can cast and dc's.

Hmm... No, I don't think so. My understanding of what Charles Ryan said is that multi-class wilder/initiates use the initiates weaves per day table (which is what you are refering to) but use the best of their ability scores for max level and save DC.

Charles HAS made bad rulings before, Lucius. I'd go with what's in Prophecies, as he made that post before Prophecies was released. Thus if you ever have Initiate levels, you always use your Initiate stuff. the only real benefit for a Initiate to MC into a wilder is to get a +5 to overchanneling and the ability to learn higher untalented weaves.
And even then, i'm not sure if I'd allow an Initiate to MC into Wilder... Wilders represent those who learned channeling on their own, and practically been doing it sense birth. Seems more a Born Into class like Sorcerer than something you can learn.
Then again, i don't know if i wanna allow MCing from Wilder to Initiate as well... going from instinctive power to trained power doesn't click... Though it clicks more than Initiate to Wilder.
I don't know. What i'm trying to say is, go with Prophecies, as that was a later ruling than CR's.

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Feb 3 2004, 09:01 PM


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Feb 3 2004, 08:58 PM)
I don't know. What i'm trying to say is, go with Prophecies, as that was a later ruling than CR's.

What I'm saying is that Prophecies doesn't contradict Charles ruling. As I read it, the ruling regarding weaves deals only with which weaves per day table to use and does address the issue of primary channeling ability score.

BTW, while we're on the subject of dodgy rules, PotD that says that multi-class Initiate/Wilders get a second affinity and talent, so you might want to be careful before embracing it too closely. smile.gif

That said , I think all the offical rules for wilder/initiate multiclassing are trash anyway. smile.gif I suggest going with whatever rules you feel will work best for your campaign.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 10:42 PM
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ah, true, but it also says when weaves are concerned (except for bonus weaves), a mc initiate/wilder casts as an initiate. It doesn't say specifically for saves, but it's infered. It never says to use the better score of the two.
It says it under Other Class Features, but that's in regards to things other than the One Power. *editeD*

Anyhow, this is how i read the rules in Prophecies. All it says for One Power is you cast as an Initiate.

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Feb 3 2004, 10:44 PM


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wolfgaidin
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Feb 3 2004, 08:58 PM)
QUOTE
What i'm trying to say is, go with Prophecies, as that was a later ruling than CR's.

Really. Hm. Didn't know that PoTD came out after the Errata from CR. *sigh* why must they contradict themselves?

Personally, I don't think there should be penalties if you multiclass, as WoTRPG seems to encourage MCing just like Star Wars RPG. MCing Initiate to Wilder does state that you can't unless you take the Eliminate Block Feat first, which is a downside, though the benefits are greater IMHO.

Though look at other classes, even in D&D. MC into a Paladin from Fighter to gain awsome benefits such as CHA to Saving Throws, immunity to disease and fear in only one or two levels. Why would a Paladin ever divert from his holy "study" to go back to Fighter? RP-wise it makes no sense, but there is nothing to stop you rule-wise and once you get tjose low-level bonuses you go back to fighter for the greater slew of feats you can take. I can't recall a good example from WoT because I'm new to the RPG setting rules, but there's probably soemthing similar I would imagine. The D&D reference was to try to get accross my example. smile.gif
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MagusRogue
Posted: Feb 3 2004, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (wolfgaidin @ Feb 3 2004, 05:46 PM)
QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Feb 3 2004, 08:58 PM)
QUOTE
What i'm trying to say is, go with Prophecies, as that was a later ruling than CR's.

Really. Hm. Didn't know that PoTD came out after the Errata from CR. *sigh* why must they contradict themselves?

Personally, I don't think there should be penalties if you multiclass, as WoTRPG seems to encourage MCing just like Star Wars RPG. MCing Initiate to Wilder does state that you can't unless you take the Eliminate Block Feat first, which is a downside, though the benefits are greater IMHO.

Though look at other classes, even in D&D. MC into a Paladin from Fighter to gain awsome benefits such as CHA to Saving Throws, immunity to disease and fear in only one or two levels. Why would a Paladin ever divert from his holy "study" to go back to Fighter? RP-wise it makes no sense, but there is nothing to stop you rule-wise and once you get tjose low-level bonuses you go back to fighter for the greater slew of feats you can take. I can't recall a good example from WoT because I'm new to the RPG setting rules, but there's probably soemthing similar I would imagine. The D&D reference was to try to get accross my example. smile.gif

they try and limit the MCing between Initiate and Wilder because without limitations, there litterally would be NO reason why you wouldn't multiclass. The two classes stack magically, which actually in the long run is more beneficial than a BAB increase.

Edit: oh and one last thing, Lucius: I agree, the current rules do suck. That's why we're here, to make the game much better, correct? biggrin.gif We rock.

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Feb 3 2004, 10:53 PM


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drothgery
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 12:27 AM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ Feb 3 2004, 10:34 PM)
That said , I think all the offical rules for wilder/initiate multiclassing are trash anyway. smile.gif I suggest going with whatever rules you feel will work best for your campaign.

Hmm, officially, my rules for wilder/initiate multiclassing are a heavily toned down version of the official ones. Unofficially, I'm trying hard to discourage my PCs from doing it, and if I ever run a tabletop WoT game (or even a second online game), I'm going to go with the rules I wish WotC had implemented -- the Wilder class won't exist, and there will be a feat you can take to get a block and learn a common weave/level untaught (you'll have to take this feat to be a channeler outside of a tradition).


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LuciusT
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (MagusRogue @ Feb 3 2004, 10:42 PM)


QUOTE
ah, true, but it also says when weaves are concerned (except for bonus weaves), a mc initiate/wilder casts as an initiate. It doesn't say specifically for saves, but it's infered.


You can infer that if you want to. I don't see any reason why you would.

QUOTE
Anyhow, this is how i read the rules in Prophecies. All it says for One Power is you cast as an Initiate.


Your campaign. Your choice.

Despite the fact that I'm argueing the point so much, I honestly don't care. I think Initiates using Int as their prime channeling ability score is a idiotic holdover from D&D. In my campaign, Wis is the prime ability score far all channelers, thus making the debate moot for me. smile.gif

Probably the only reason that I am argueing the point, apart from feeling like combative today, is that it goes seriously against the novels. As I read the novels channeling potential is a fixed and is detectable in women. In the game, I consider channeling potential to be measured by your prime channeling stat. Your interpretation of the rule means that when a wilder become trained, her channeling potential is reduced. I can see no example of this happening in the novels and at least one (Nyneave) that I believes contradicts it. Therefore, by my interpretation of the novels, I consider your interpretation of the rules to be inaccurate.

Of course, droghtery will argue, with justification, that the entire Wilder class is inaccurate. It all comes down to interpretation.
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Blaeric Fen
Posted: Feb 4 2004, 01:03 AM
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Lucius is right IMO, it is interpretation that's the deciding factor in a lot of cases dealing with the Wilder class. I still believe that if you MC from a Wilder to an initiate you should use the wilder's saving throws & weaves & all that jazz. But it's also just like Lucius said, It's your campaign, so it's your rules.


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