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> The Ages, how does it go again?
Axel
Posted: Aug 15 2004, 06:52 PM
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Then we have an obvious parodox which unravels the very fabric of any layout of Ages. There is no way that the 3rd Age could remember ours and at the same time we remember it. This also eliminates the idea of any "prehistoric age" because there's no place for it, by deffinition nothing could be remembered through it.


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 19 2004, 03:04 AM
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Ok.. wow what a post! lol


A few thoughts, first why does any one age need to last a designated number of millenia, and even more so, why on earth would they all have to last the SAME number of millenia??? smile.gif

The age in which man 'ran with the wolves' appears to be prehistoria and could very well be an incredibly long age which also included dinosaurs.

I never actually picked up on the moscow/america cold war reference and that's awesome, thanks to you all for mentioning it, it's obvious now that you point it out, so those myths come from our age.

Additionally the point has been made in a number of different ways that the ages are cyclic not linear, therefore there is no age 1, 2, 3...7

the age 0 and the respective positive and negatives is an interesting way to look at this but since i'm slightly less of a math and science mind and slightly more of an art and literature mind I propose that we label them in a non-numerical fashion completely. why dont we label them with symbols?

how about...
  • Alef Age - The Age of Legends
  • Ayin Age - The Age of Illusion; which RJ is writing about currently
  • Zayin Age- The Age of ????; The age after Tarmon Gaidon
  • Yod Age - The Age of Forgetting, In which the ability to channel is forgotten by all
  • Tzade Age - The Age of Wolves and Man, Stone Age
  • Shin Age - The Age of Myths, Our time
  • Samech Age - The Age of Awakening, In which men turn from "technology" and seek "faith" finding the one power once again

(I have randomly chosen letters from the ancient Hebrew alphabet, they are not in order. I chose hebrew because unlike greek or latin, those particular symbols are not well known and would not be automatically placed in linear order by most people minds)

I've borrowed some of the descriptions, order, and key events here from Aleshandre.

One thing that no one appears to be thinking about all that much is that, presumably, the ages of the wheel affect the entire world. Or especially, and more specifically the end of an edge affected the entire world. the end of the age of legends broke the continents and made mountains in to ocean and vice versa (possibly during the age of legends we were in a pangea state, who knows). The end of the age of illusions (rand's age) is going to bring the entire world in to the mix as well, we have already involved everyone in the westlands, the aiel, the seanchan, the atha'an miere, and possibly, through the forsaken, the people of Shara. That doesnt leave many out, and I'm confident by the time we are finished every people group in the world will be drastically affected. I say this to make the point that using the "dark ages" of earth as an example of an age of darkness makes no sense since during those dark ages the empires of china were thriving, as were other empires in africa, the middle east, india, and the americas.

As for the origins of the Ogier...Good thoughts. However has no one considered that RJ intends for the Yeti/Sasquatch of our modern mythos to be Ogier, in which case they are still around today, just hiding from man? Is it possible the Ogier never leave? I can agree with the idea that they are hunted down, much as the fearsom Ogres, Trolls, and other horrible monsters would have been hunted down in Medieval Europe and much as people attempt to track down Big Foot today, however if they were hunted not in to extinction but in to hiding they could exist in every age, after all they make their homes out of red wood stumps and hills in the ground, they're overgrown hobbits wink.gif

But I'm not at all saying they couldnt come from some alternate world via portal stones. That is just as plausible.

Ok i'm rambling but one more thing... Dinosaurs... Guys, um...raken...to'raken, grolm...nearly every one of the things the seanchan ride are dinosaurs as far as i'm concerned smile.gif

and they still exist in the age of illusions.

ok enough from me, how does all of that sound to you? smile.gif


~llewin
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Entropic_existence
Posted: Aug 19 2004, 04:12 AM
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The grolm, to'raken, etc are specifically mentioned as creatures brought from one of the Mirror Worlds either before, during, or shortly after the breaking to fight Shadowspawn. That and none of them really resemble dinosaurs smile.gif But otherwise I agree with your post, there are seven ages but it is also specifically stated that "no one knows exactly how long an age is, or whether all ages are equal." It is circular but there does appear to be the suggesstion that there are seven distinct periods during the cycle.


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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 19 2004, 03:37 PM
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I am surprised that nobody mentioned the obvious similarity between OGIER and OGRE. It is quite possible that "ogres" were hunted down until they retreated into thick forrests (bigfoot), frozen tundras (norse frost giants) and high mountains (yeti) to avoid the humans' wrath.

I would like to point out that there is a distinct correlation between the 3 "known" ages and the current timeline:

Age of Discovery - Today
Age of Legends - Christian "Melinial Reign" or "thousand years of peace".
Age of Illusions - Christian "short season" where the darkone (satan) is released from his prison to torment the world again.

According to the bible and other Christian literature, the 'end of the world' is after the previously mentioned short season. This means that if we use the major event/memory of the major event system, we can derive the following succession:

Age of Illusions - short season ("officially" ends with the last battle, but truely ends when the last person with living memory dies) - probable events after the last battle include the world descending into total chaos, war and destruction ending the age of men again, leaving only Wolfbrothers alive and sending humans back into a "stone age" situation. including the loss of the One Power.

The next age could last for any length of time, but ultimately humans would begin to form tribal societies separate from the wolves, but still maintain contact, though some wolves would leave the packs as more people are born without the ability to communicate with them and become domesticated dogs, as human societies become less associated with the wolves.

Next would come the rise of city-states and farming communities as humans distance themselves more from the wildones. At this point, the legends of the last battle become the "war in heaven", which leads to religions popping up all over dedicated to one "god" or another, while one would remain true to the Creator and follow an occasional wilder with the "power of god".

The next age would be the probable first birth of the Dragon, who would unite the people and divide them, though his followers would ultimately be hunted down and killed, while others would corrupt the "Creator's church", leaving the One Power again lost, except for the occasional witch, wizard, sorcerer, etc. who would likely be put to death or exalted as king (such as Odin/Otarin/Oscar) so fresh legends and myths pop up as well.

Next, people become "enlightened" and begin to move away from the mythologies of the past and lean more on science instead of religion, though there are still wizards and witches that occasionally pop up, though most of them disguise themselves as inventors and alchemist/scientists.

Finally there is a major political movement that places more emphasis on personal achievement and representative government as well as a major human migration.

Now we come back to the Age of Discovery and the resurgence of religious movement ending when the "Last Battle" occurs and the "chosen one" reigns in peace for "a thousand years"

Next up is the Age of Legends and so the cycle reaches it's pinnacle.


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 19 2004, 06:38 PM
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That's definitely plausible, Ale (and i was surprised no one had mentioned the similarity between ogier ond ogre either actually! lol... along with the similarity of the trolloc tribal names to all of the varied monsters of mythology...)

One thing though about the three ages we know about corresponding with the christian belief system... Though I of course see parallells I also see numerous numerous parallells to many other in fact almost every other religious tradition and mythical legend of history (apart from the tall tales of modern america which I believe most anthropologists and literary historians would disagree with the idea of american tall tales being true mythology or legend) What about the obvious similarities between mat, perrin, rand and the Nordic mythology... most obviously, Mat and Loki

I just dont know if using the christian tradition (and i am christian so i'm not saying this because i'm anti christian faith) as the basis for the trends of the ages of robert jordan's created world is well founded...atleast not as the primary. I can see using those traditions as an equal part among many other traditions and many different myths, but according to RJ, he was trying to write a story which explains all of the myths of our time, writing the "what really happened" story...so every major myth of the world including those of norse, greek, egyptian, japanese, indian, and chinese mythology should be included somewhere right? smile.gif

~llewin
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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 19 2004, 08:57 PM
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Yes, the other traditions would be included in there as well. I simply don't know all of the others well enough to discuss their correlation intelligently.


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amylrins_peril
Posted: Aug 20 2004, 06:09 AM
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Just the idea that time is a wheel, that events repeat themselves infinitely, is an Oriental concept.

It is an Occidental concept that time is linear, or that it has a beginning and an end.

So yes, Jordan borrows heavily from mythology of other religions and cultures.

The Aiel, for instance, is an typical RJ blended 'What if?'
What if ... some fair-skinned Irish had to adopt the lifestyle of the Indians of the American Southwest?
The Seanchen have a lot Japanese feudalism in their society. But they all talk like they are from Houston, Texas. Yeeehah!
RJ is a big borrower ... like all commercial writers. The key thing, is the world he creates believable? I'd have to say yes.

One more thing. RJ has been quoted several times saying he doesn't espouse any of these particular cultural draws as a guiding philosophy. These are choices he is making to tell a dramatic story, not a message to the reader on how they should live their life.

So, if you interpret his work as too Christian or too pagan or too whatever, I wouldn't read that deeply into it.
Checkout Wotmania's theory posts. They're loaded with examples of myth and culture that RJ has drawn from to tell the story.
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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 20 2004, 03:27 PM
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Actually, the Aiel are more of an redheaded-Irish adipting the weapons of the the indians, the honor system of the Japanese and a combination of the dress of the middle east and the ninja.


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amylrins_peril
Posted: Aug 20 2004, 09:56 PM
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And, of course, Rand doing the Lawrence of Arabia thing with the Aiel...

The point was RJ draws from multiple cultures and eras, but certainly advocates none as a lifestyle.

But we seem to have veered off topic. (Hard left turn).

Back to the Ages ...
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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 20 2004, 10:26 PM
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Nothing wrong with a thread-hijacking, they're usually non-violent. biggrin.gif


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Axel
Posted: Aug 21 2004, 01:18 AM
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Our paradox remains. There is simply no way that we could remember the 3rd Age and at the same time they could remember us. And yet we can clearly see paralells between our legends and them, and between their legends and us.


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amylrins_peril
Posted: Aug 21 2004, 02:18 PM
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The Question: How does the events of an age that is forgotten continue to be remembered?

Let me offer this and see if has any validity.

1. The Heroes of the Horn have no memory of their past lives after the Wheel has spun them out and they are reborn again.
2. Yet the Heroes, after their deaths, return to the World of Dreams. There they remember their past lives and deeds.
3. That means the World of Dreams exists outside the Pattern in someway.
4. Since all people have even fleeting access to the World of Dreams, then is it possible that reflections and memories of the past Ages still exist there, people dream about these things, and these "memories" -- even shadows of memories -- then reenter the consciousness of those in the current age.
5. Then the storytellers of a particular Age use these memories of the past to entertain, educate, etc.

I know it is far-fetched. But we are talking about a fantasy world where women in a White Tower use magic like some people eat candy.
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Axel
Posted: Aug 24 2004, 10:27 PM
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We already know from Gaidal Cain that the Heroes aren't allowed to interact with those who Dream their way to the World of Dreams. And there's no reason for memories to drift around there, else people'd be able to remember things that haven't happened yet.

Even ignoring our paradox we have yet to agree upon a basic foundation for the Ages. What happens after what?


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 25 2004, 01:24 AM
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Ok so lets get back to the main topic.

First, and this just struck me... the fact that as far as we can tell the age of Illusions has myths which have *names* that correspond to events and people in our time then we can say for certain that our particular turning happened before the "current" age RJ is writing about. so why dont we start with OUR age as the first one listed...that might make things easier...

so what do we know...

we know we have the Modern Age (us)
we know we have an Age of Legends (LTT's Age)
we know we have an Age of Illusions (Rand's Age)
we know we have an Age of the Nomads (when men ran with wolves)
and we know this age is A very long time ago so most likely comes before the Modern Age in the cycle of the wheel.
finally we know that in order to have a nomadic/stone age time period we must have an age in which nearly all of mankind and all knowledge and technology is destroyed completely which did not happen in the age of legends there for we have an Age of Destruction which most likely precedes the Age of Nomads

SO.
  • Age of Nomads (in which man lives through the stone age and ogier retreat from the world, avoiding those who nearly destroyed them entirely)
  • Age of Enlightenment (in which mankind rises from the stone age into the first stages of technological growth)
  • The Modern Age (which ends iwth a strong bent toward 'spirituality' leading to teh rediscovery and research into the One Power and blending magic and technology in a near Utopia)
  • The Age of Legends
  • The Age of Illusions
  • The Age of Decline (in which eventually the one power is forgotten and only technology remains)
  • The age of Destruction (in which technology is used to fully annialate the Earth, possibly sending the continents into major shift and remaking the face of the earth as well as nearly destroying man and ogier kind)
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Axel
Posted: Aug 25 2004, 10:00 PM
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Aside from our paradox that makes as much sense as anything.


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 25 2004, 10:56 PM
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As far as the paradox goes I think that is most easily explained by the simple explaination that RJ did not intend for his wording to be taken as a literal explaination of how history metamorphoses as ages pass but simply to say that by the time the age comes again it is completely forgotten, not to say that like a math formula it changes from one age to another.

This makes the most sense for more than one reason but the most obvious one to me is that there is no indication that any one age is a designated length of time nor that all ages share the same length of time from beginning to end. For example, if the Stone Age is 10,000 years of nothing but oral history with writing being rediscovered near it's end and with that the explosion of technology our history records then events and history from ages 'previous' to that age would be forgotten much more quickly than say those in ages previous to ours where we have a written historical record and the technology to support or negate that record with archeological findings.

What do you think?

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Llewin
Posted: Aug 25 2004, 10:57 PM
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ARGH i hate double posts...

This post has been edited by Llewin on Aug 25 2004, 10:59 PM
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Axel
Posted: Aug 26 2004, 09:41 PM
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The problem remains that with the amount of time involved, no matter how you consider it an Age is a long time, we shouldn't remember them. Besides the fact that Ages begin and end very dramatically, it doesn't make sense for much before the ending of an Age to be remembered well. Besides every setup has our age not too far from the Third Age, that's alot of intervening time for stuff to be remembered....


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Llewin
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 12:09 AM
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Is it really too long for things to be remembered, even as myth?

Firstly, RJ's world is by his own definition and fictional fantasy attempt at explaining the mythology of the world today.

However, nothing that I can think of in the books (please someone give me examples if i'm wrong) corresponds to the details of our myths in more than a general way. In fact some of the main characters of RJ's story share traits of our mythological heroes but none of them share a name. (possible exception Rand al'*thor* though I dont know of any trait's rand shares with the myth of Thor the Norse god of thunder)

On the flip side, RJ's books have myths in them which do have direct connections in detail and more importantly in *Name* to our time which means the distance from our age to the 'third age' is shorter than the distance from the 'third age' to our age, by logical steps.

Now as far as it being too long for people to remember even the glimmer of the truth in myth... I disagree for a few reasons.

First, there is nothing to say the major event between every age is an event of destruction. For example, the complete loss of the One Power is a pretty big event. On the flip side, the re-discovery of the One Power is also a pretty gosh darn big event. Neither of them necessitates massive destruction of land, technology, or even culture.

Second, there is nothing to say that each age begins or ends with the loss of written history.

Finally, even if each age began or ended with the loss of written history, if you were to research the bedouin, ancient hebrew, as well as other ancient middle eastern cultures (i chose them because i know for sure they support my point, not to say they are the only ancient culture which does) you will find that they had an incredibly strong tradition of oral history. It was customary before writing was created or adapted by these cultures for members of a clan or household to be taught the detailed history of their family lineage word for word and to repeat it orally. This tradition was so strongly ingrained that most major historians today agree that though we do not have a written record from this time period the records we do have from later are 90% or better likely to be historically accurate.

The human mind is the best electronic dictionary in the world, the best encyclopedia, and the best problem solving computer. There is no reason to believe that people would be incapable of passing along at the LEAST a sustained mythology.

*watches to see who picks up the two coppers......*
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Aleshandre
Posted: Aug 27 2004, 06:31 PM
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In regard to the paradox, myths last far longer than legends or memories. The real question is whether there are any myths about Rand and co. that are told in his time? No? Then there is no paradox. They can have myths about us and we about them and there is no paradox, but we have no myths about our own actions and they have none about their own actions, so the cycle is complete.


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