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> Horse Mechanics, more of a general d20 question
strycher
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 06:42 AM
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OK. Some questions about combat when riding on horseback.

[A] When riding a Warhorse, you can attack without any sort of Ride check. But, in order to fight while the Warhorse simulatenously attacks, requires a Ride Check (DC10).
What is the Movement and attack actions for the PC and the Horse?

Can the Mount : 1) Double Move 2) Move + Attack or 3) Full Attack
allowing the rider to do a Full Attack (even though the rider is "brought along for the ride" and is actually moving)? Normally for a PC to get Full attack, the most movement allowed is a 5 ft step. But, does riding a horse allow more movement while retaining the Full Attack option?

For example, a warhorses movement is 60 ft.
Could a mounted rider move 60 ft, have the War horse attack once (single hoof), and then the Rider gets Full Attack?
The next round, does the warhorse get a full attack (2 hooves + bite), and the rider can still make a Full Attack?
or - could a rider ride his horse 120 ft (a double move for the horse), then get whatever attacks he (the rider) has available (up to a Full Attack) - in the same round?

--OR--
is a mounted rider, just "one entity" with better movement. What I mean is, does the PC have improved movement (up to 60ft for a single move), and then is allowed a single action in the same round.
1st round: Rider and horse move 60 ft, then rider gets single attack.
2nd round: Rider can use full attack, with successful check, the horse can also attack.


[B] Situation: In inexperienced rider has captured a torm! He has managed to gain the creatures trust enough to mount it. And decides to ride it in a combat. He knows that he wouldn't be able to fight himself very well, but decides to let the creature do the battling for him.

What sort of checks would you do as the rider tries to use this beast/weapon to kill enemies? Should there be a "Control Mount in Battle - Ride Check (DC 20)?
If the rider is successful controling the mount is there some sort of check for "staying in the saddle"? Avoiding falling off when a torm is swinging its claws and biting seems to me would be kind of difficult, especially for an inexperienced rider.

[C] Disengaging (or withdrawing/retreating) while on horseback. Is there any difference than while not riding a horse?
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Zarozynia
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 06:26 PM
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Wow, this is a lot to answer. I will try, with everything that I can remember. We do use warhorses in my campaign (both Borderlanders have them) and these are the rules we use:
[A]
* You can take a full round action to attack while your horse is moving, although because of the movement, you cannot take multiple attacks on the same creature. But, theoretically, you could attack three trollocs who are standing in succession if you had enough attacks.
* If your horse is making a double move, you are at minuses to the attack. I believe that there is a feat which lessens the penalty, but dont remember what it is right now.

*Your horse must follow the same rules about movement and attacking as a character. Which means, they can make two actions in a round. So they cannot make a double move and attack, or take a full round action to attack and then move in the same turn. They are allowed a five foot step just like anything else.
*A sidenote, warhorses are very well trained and generally will not attack while carrying a rider unless instructed to do so.

*As long as neither the horse nor rider moves, both could make a full round attack in the same round, as long as the person has made the appropriate ride check to stay on the horse.
*And, contrary to what you wrote the rider and the horse get a full round attack when the rider has made a successful check. If the rider does not make a successful ride check, his mount gets an attack and he is too busy trying not to fall off to fight, not the other way around.

[B]
Although I have not read Proficiecies of the Dragon that Wizard's put out, I do not think that Wizard's has given us enough information about the way that torm and their riders would interact to answer this question well. What I can say is that a trained battle animal will normally not attack without being first given the signal. And, an inexperienced torm rider probably would not know the proper signal to give the torm. I would give them a pretty high DC on a handle animal check to try to get the torm to understand that attacking was what the rider desired.

They would definately need a ride check to stay in the saddle, and it should probably be fairly high because they are inexperienced with riding a torm. On the other hand, given that people ride torm into battle, they probably have decent saddles which are meant to help a rider stay on the animal in battle.

[C]
How good are horses at backing up? Because that's how you disengage in battle. If they cant do it easily, they probably wouldn't be able to perform a disengage. I'm not really a horse person, so I have no easy answer to this question.


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strycher
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 08:23 PM
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OK, so if I have this straight, the mounted combat is different from every other sort of "turn-based combat" rule out there. Even without the Ride-By Combat feat, you can make multiple attacks on mulitple opponents as long as they are strung out in intervals within the movement range of your horse and you have more than one attack! Wow!
So you are essentially moving 10 ft - attack - move 10 feet more - 2nd attack on opponent #2 - move 30 feet - 3rd attack on opponent #3!
Wow.
Do the opponents get Attacks of Opportunities each time you move on? I would think so.

What about an opponent standing 10ft away. If you rode up with your horse and stopped in front of the opponent. No charge, just trot up and stop. Could the rider get full attack (multiple attacks) against that one opponent? (in that same round?)

I have always had combat rules ground into my head of move actions followed by attack actions. Or Attack, then move. Only with special feats do these blend into each other.
Hmmm...So Horse rules are different then... interesting.

As for minuses to attacking - the rule book only gives penalties to ranged attacks during double moves or faster. I don't see anything about melee attacks being penalized. Does this mean that there are no penalties to a melee attack even if your horse is running past at 4x it's speed? Wow!

And thanks for your help. This is all kind of confusing for me.

This post has been edited by strycher on Aug 28 2004, 08:23 PM
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Zarozynia
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 09:44 PM
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horse rules ARENT different, in my oppinion. You are just looking at the horse and rider as one entity, when they BOTH do things in an attack round. When you are on a horse, your horse always gets the "first" move only in the sense that what you horse does will always effect what you can do. Meaning that if you horse is moving, you cannot attack the same opponent more than once (unless, of course, the opponent is larger than a medium sized creature) or, another example, when your horse is running, you are at a negative to your attacks.

But you yourself are not moving, so it doesn't count as a movement attack. Its the same thing as being on a ship in the Starwars RPG, you get full attacks because the ship is moving, you are just on the ship that is moving.

I am not certain on the "official" answer on you getting a full round action if you horse moves and then stops, but I would not let my players do this. My reasons? If your horse moves, they are taking up half of their 6 seconds per that round, and you only then have that other half of the 6 seconds to attack, which only gives you one attack for that round. Make sense?


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Aug 28 2004, 11:43 PM
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Horses can back up great. They don't like to anymore than a human does, because they can't see what's behind them, but given the fearlessness exhibited by warhorses especially I don't think that is a problem.

I've tried to hold on to horses trying to back out of stocks, and man they can back up fast and hard let me tell you. I had rope burns for a week.

They can even come back on their back legs and back up a little on back legs only while they are trying to take your head off with their front hooves.

So yes, I would have to say that a horse can disengage. They are more dexteritous than most would give them credit for.


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Niveus
Posted: Aug 31 2004, 10:19 AM
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i use the vehicle combat rules from modern they smooth the edges and make ofr fast play


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: Aug 31 2004, 10:38 PM
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THESE ARE THE OFFICIAL RULES AS PER THE 3.5 SRD
QUOTE

MOUNTED COMBAT
Horses in Combat: Warhorses and warponies can serve readily as combat steeds. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat.
Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally
Casting Spells while Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).
If Your Mount Falls in Battle: If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.
If You Are Dropped: If you are knocked unconscious, you have a 50% chance to stay in the saddle (or 75% if you’re in a military saddle). Otherwise you fall and take 1d6 points of damage.
Without you to guide it, your mount avoids combat.

of course if Zarozynia wishes to house rule that you can use your full attack while moving ahorseback thats ok, just pointing out that under the standard rules you cannot make a full attack if your horse moved more than 5 ft, as standard for anyone else moving more than 5 ft. unless of course you are using a ranged weapon, in which case you can make your full attack, but at a penalty for the swift horse movement.
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Zarozynia
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 02:20 AM
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Quite frankly, I dont think that that disagrees with my point.

By that, the reason that you cant make more than one attack is that you have to move up to your opponent to attack. That agrees with my statement that you cant make two attacks on the same opponent. On the other hand, if you were to move up to a second attacker, you should be able to get a second attack on that attacker. But you can only get on melee attack on that attacker as well.

I dont think that I disagree with the rules, it may just be one interpretation though. I doesn't say outright, and I'm pretty sure that my reasoning actually comes from an explanation that somebody from Wizard's made in their rules section at the website. I will check my source, but I'm at least 75% that its "official".


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Zarozynia
Posted: Sep 1 2004, 06:57 PM
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And I feel REALLY silly. The horse mechanics that I was just talking about are clarified at the Wizard's website, but they are also in the Wheel of Time Core Rule book.


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strycher
Posted: Oct 1 2004, 06:00 AM
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[QUOTE=Kakita Aramoro,Aug 31 2004, 08:38 PM]THESE ARE THE OFFICIAL RULES AS PER THE 3.5 SRD
[QUOTE]
MOUNTED COMBAT
--///-- If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge). --///--[/QUOTE]


OK, I included a portion of the 3.5 rules as supplied by Kakita Aramoro's post.
I would like someone to further explain some horse combat mechanics.

In our last session, the question came up if you could continue past an enemy after attacking.
Here was the situation:
An enemy was about 25 feet away. I wished to spur my mount forward to attack the enemy. Since he was more than 5 feet away, I would only be allowed one attack.
But, how would my movement end? How would charging work?

Here's how we interpreted the rules. In order to benefit from the charge (both on attack bonus, but also x2 dmg with lance), the movement needed to end adjacent with the enemy.
So, I charged 25 ft on my horse, and lanced the bad guy with double dmg. My turn ended with me next to him.

Is this the correct interpretation?

Is it possible to continue past the enemy after attacking? (without the Ride-By Attack Feat) If so, does this mean you can't charge? Or maybe it is better to ask, if you don't gain the benefits from charging?
What I mean is :
1) Ride 25 ft up to the enemy
2) Engage with a melee attack (simple attack - no bonuses from charging)
3) Continue riding futher away from the enemy (up to 95 ft)
And am I correct that this provides an AoO when moving out of the bad guy's threatened space?

The Ride-By Attack feat therefore gains 2 benefits in this situation:
1) No Attack of Opportunity and
2) Allow to benefit from Charging, but then continue movement.

Thanks again for helping/indulging me. I really didn't think that horses were that complicated until we started using them regularly in combat during this campaign.
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Niveus
Posted: Oct 1 2004, 07:27 AM
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yeah it is really a grey area


I would say the lance would deal double damage while charging and the horse would get the full movement but would provoke an attack of oppurtunity (providing the did not sustain massive damage) unless they have the ride by attack and thus avoid the attack of oppurtunity

but thats just how I run it

This post has been edited by Niveus on Oct 1 2004, 07:01 PM


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 1 2004, 02:40 PM
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To get double damage from a lance you must be mounted and in a charge. If you charge you must move before the attack, not after. So in the case described above where you moved after attacking, you would not have been in a charge (so no attack bonus, defense penalty, or double damage).

With Ride by Attack, you are allowed to charge, make your attack and then continue moving, giving you a significant advantage.

The reason you have to be a stickler on this rule is because if you aren't you make the Ride by Attack feat useless. And it essentially penalizes a character that goes to the trouble of taking that feat. So it is an important point.

Also the manuveur you describe above would require Ride By Attack. In one sense you can imagine it being like Spring Attack on a horse. You normally can only attack, and then move, or move then attack. Ride by attack lets you move, attack, move some more. Can't do that without the feat.

As far as AoO goes, normally if you move through a threatened square your enemy gets an AoO. With Ride By Attack, if you are charging through, they don't get one. Very helpful and great to have.

I think that covers your question.


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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 1 2004, 07:22 PM
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actually Sharn, Ride By Attack allows you to move CHARGE and then move. there's a difference. By the rules, you can move, attack and move as long as its not a charge. so you dont get bonus' for you attack or double damage. If it didn't allow for that, there would be no point in every fighting on a horse.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 1 2004, 07:51 PM
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You mean no benefit except the increased movement, a +1 to attack against medium sized or smaller creatures, and that the horse can also attack.

I'm not disputing your statement, but I can find nothing in the 3.5 SRD under Mounted Combat to support your statement. Could you please direct me to your source for clarification?


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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 1 2004, 08:11 PM
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Quote from pg. 153 of the Wheel of Time Core Rule Book:

If your mount moves more than five feet, you cannot make more than one melee attack against a single opponent - your mount is moving too fast to hit the same opponent twice....However, if you mount's movement takes you past additional targets, you may use your extra attacks against them.

Unless it specifically says otherwise in the 3.5 rules, which I'm not going to look up right this second, you can do this. I'm not really understanding how you're assuming though that a feat which specifically deals with a charge proves that you cant attack normally and then move. The only rule I have says that you cant charge and then move.


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strycher
Posted: Oct 1 2004, 10:42 PM
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To confirm.
With Ride-By Attack feat:
1. Can benefit from bonus of Charge (both attack bonus and x2 damage).
2. Does not provide an Attack of Opportunity when continuing past target.

I don't have any problem with this. And I agree, I don't want to cheapen the Feat by allowing certain things without having the feat.

But, what is possible without the feat?
Can you move (on the horse)
Attack (normal attack - no Full attack - no Charge)
and Move again?
This sounds like the Spring Attack feat for people on foot. The difference is that without the feat (R-B Att), the rider leaves himself open for the AoO.

Now, I am for allowing this, I don't believe it infringes too much on the Ride-By Attack Feat. Because the feat does 2 extra things beyond what I listed. It elimnates the AoO, and gives the rider the Charge benefits.

---------------------------------------
Another way of looking at the whole thing is that the Rider doesn't have to worry about "movement actions" during his combat round.
Usually, combat rounds on foot consist of Move-Action, or Action-Move.
The Move-Attack-Move is only possible with the Spring Attack Feat.
But, a rider on horseback doesn't worry any of his "standard Actions" with movement. He gets them "for free" from his horse.

The 3.0 book "Sword & Fist" gives a Horse combat example. In one round of combat, the Paladin throws a Javelin (an attack), then draws and readies his Lance (a move-equivalent action). During this round, the horse is moving the entire round.

So, in my example, a rider can move-attack-move without any problem. Because the rider has actually only used one of his 2 actions (an attack) in his round. The rider still can perform a "move-equivalent" action. He can't double attack, or Full attack if he moves more than 5 feet. But any other "double action" should be possible (within reason, of course).

right?
or am I completely wrong..... tongue.gif
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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 2 2004, 12:30 AM
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Unless it says differently in the 3.5 rules, you're right.

You should be able to move, attack move
You just cant move charge move without the feat, and leaving your opponent's square provokes an AOO.

And yes, your horse's movement does not count towards you movement. For the purposes of movement you can consider the horse to be the vehicle that you are on, the vehicle is moving but you are not (because you are still on top of the horse right where you were in the beginning)


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 2 2004, 03:51 AM
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Z, I don't see where you get off saying that I'm assuming that the feat proves anything. Freak. I never stated that as evidence or even tried to argue with you about. Holy Cow.

All assumptions I make are from the 3.5 SRD. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up. Here it is:
QUOTE

MOUNTED COMBAT
Horses in Combat: Warhorses and warponies can serve readily as combat steeds. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat.
Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally
Casting Spells while Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).
If Your Mount Falls in Battle: If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.
If You Are Dropped: If you are knocked unconscious, you have a 50% chance to stay in the saddle (or 75% if you’re in a military saddle). Otherwise you fall and take 1d6 points of damage.
Without you to guide it, your mount avoids combat.


And just to drive home the point in case there are those that still think, I'm off my rocker:

QUOTE

RIDE-BY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Special: A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.


According to 3.5 you don't get your full round attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet. It also does not mention anything here that says you can move, attack, and then move. That requires the Ride-by Attack feat. Since I've converted my game to 3.5 these are the rules that I use. So take your pick then, use the WoT RPG or 3.5, just be consistant.


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Zarozynia
Posted: Oct 2 2004, 04:26 AM
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well it definately makes a &(^%&^* of more sense to say that you cant attack the same target in combat when moving on a mount by 3.0 rules than to say that you can only make one attack. one of the few changes I've found that I most definately do not agree with. dry.gif But I'm also pretty certain that I read something by somebody at Wizard's clarifying that you can still attack two creatures as you move, I just cant find it currently.

Am I the only one that doesn't like the new rules?


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Oct 2 2004, 05:31 AM
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It doesn't make since if you play that you can move, attack, and move normally. Since you can't move and attack and move, in these rules, then they had to take out the multiple attacks as you go by he various opponents (cause your not going by them).

Yeah, Z, I never said they are perfect rules. I suspect that part of their reason was to try to streamline and simplify combat a little. It does make Ride-by Attack even more advantagous to have.

I'm not trying to advocate rules one way or the other. I don't have a problem with 3.5, so I use it. This guy just wanted a clarification on the rules of mounted combat, so I'm trying my best to present the 3.5 rules as I understand them. If he prefers to use the original WoT RPG rules, or make his own rules, that's fine, too. Whatever makes your game play best for you.

Even with the 3.5 rules, a mounted combatant still has a significant advantage over a foot soldier. As I said, I personally don't have a problem with it, but I can see the arguement against it, and see nothing wrong with tweeking the system to suit your needs.


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