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Campin |
Posted: Oct 29 2004, 03:56
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Newbie ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3 Member No.: 194 Joined: 27-October 04 ![]() |
Yea I'm the new DM and I will be starting a campaign
with up to 3 people. We have all been playing D&D for may years but
are new to the Wheel of Time. The setting is awesome, the write-ups in the campaign book top notch. I really like the diversity with the backgrounds; the classes are a bit weaker than standard D&D but that is made up in the Prestige classes, which really give the players some cool power to work with. The spell system I really like with the Over Channeling and Linking giving spell casters a little more in the way of options. The caster can normally get a little more oomph for his buck from the weaves he chooses to cast. But in some weaves, that is were I'm concerned... They seen to a little unbalanced. Has anyone else noticed this? I namely refer to the Elementalism Talent, were a caster at 1st lvl who has affinity air could potentially hurl up to 3 boulders (or similar hard object) of a 100 pounds at an enemy for 4d6 Dmg with the Arms of Air weave, and then by lvl 5 a 400 pound boulder for 16d6? Am I missing something? Just seems to be little nuts... Comparatively a fireball (which requires 2 affinities) of equal lvl only does 4d6 + caster lvl, granted it affects all with in 20', but 16d6 dmg.. Can you really compare... I have similar problem with the Immolate power when you compare the two and Wand of Fire, Rend, pretty much every other dmg dealing weave! I also wonder about Hardened Air for it potential to suffocate a group of people within 15' of each other also by lvl 5 and requiring only the Air affinity. Create Fire also could be over powering, but at least with its brew time and potential for collateral dmg (forest, civilians, etc.) the players would have to use it responsibly. Am I nuts here? Has using the one power in your game affected things? Are there balancing issues? Also just wanted to know how other people have integrated the Robert Jordan Novels into the campaign world. Seems to be that the best way of playing in his world is to set the story after the Aiel wars but before Rand is discovered.. As I don't want to mess with the magic that RJ has sewn in creating this elaborate story and also don't want to have what the NPCs are doing (Rand, Perrin & Mat) to always outshine what my players are up to. Thanx, Campin |
Llewin |
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 01:06
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 188 Member No.: 138 Joined: 25-April 04 ![]() |
heh.. now that's an open post... "everyone tell me
the best way to DM the WOT game..." i'm surprised its taken this long to get a reply ![]() OK I'll try to hit all the bases here... The classes are weaker than standard D&D only because this isnt your average 'high magic' hack'n'slash campaign universe. It is pretty portable though through the use of ...well... portal stones...no pun intended however... Overchannelling, linking, and the angreal/sa'angreal in the world can make a channeller infinitely variable and able to do much more than they would be able to do otherwise, which is great. Ok now as far as how powerful certain weaves are... like the example you give... "the Elementalism Talent, were a caster at 1st lvl who has affinity air could potentially hurl up to 3 boulders (or similar hard object) of a 100 pounds at an enemy for 4d6 Dmg with the Arms of Air weave, and then by lvl 5 a 400 pound boulder for 16d6?" I'm not so sure about the hurling... i dont have the book in front of me so i cant recall the speed/distance on arms of air. One thing to keep in mind is that you are always free to adapt the rules. I am fairly sure that in RJ's writings that would simply be impossible to hurl a boulder of 400 lbs with the one power because all of the channellers who have picked things up with the power havent been able to lift much more than their own weight. Even Egwene, who is one of the Power Girls, could barely lift Rand in her Ter'angreal testing vision.. she lifted him slowly (as quickly as she could but slowly) and it strained her ability... The balance in the One Power is taken care of mostly by cultural requirements and guidelines or regulations. For example, all Aes Sedai are required to swear not to use the One Power as a weapon except in the last extreme defense of their life, the life of another Aes Sedai or the life of their warder. The other exception to that rule is if they are attacking shadowspawn or dark friends. In the Aiel Waste it is completely forbidden for Wise Ones to participate in battle. In the rest of the westlands the Aes Sedai keep a pretty close watch for any channellers who start being overtly violent with the one power. The common joe schmoe doesnt know the difference between a wilder and an aes sedai so *anyone* using the one power as weapon makes Aes Sedai look bad. They stamp on it fast as soon as they hear it. So though the raw use of the One Power could potentially be VERY powerful there are considerable forces keeping it at bay. Certainly your players could 'break the rules' culturally but they would eventually pay for it by being imprissoned, perhaps stilled, or even executed... Now as far as running the campaign in RJ's reality... I understand not wanting to have your players overun by the main characters' antics however there are probably hundreds if not thousands of way around that.. First there's the option you took, keep it close to the timeline so you are familiar with the feel of the culture but before the dragon is reborn so you dont have to deal with it at all. Second, you can have them in the Dragon's lifetime but not come in contact with him or his cohorts, or atleast not signifigantly... i mean, the westlands are atleast as big as europe, it cant be that hard to keep your players away from a baker's dozen of highly influential and powerful folks can it? ![]() Third, play the 'mirror world' avenue then they can get bumped right up against the Dragon's folks, screw up RJ's storyline all over the place, and its still legitimate as one of the 'could have happened' scenarios. Fourth, pick a timeline farther away and with much more room to play in such as the Trolloc Wars, the War of a Hundred Years, Artur Hawkings time, or maybe just after the Breaking of the World... How about...during the Age of Legends... After the 'current age' that being Rand's age and timeline... There are innumerable possibilities there ![]() Well that's my two cents... Other than that...this member board is a HUGE resource, especially if you change the topic listing options to start with the first post on record... there is a LOT of great info, house rules, rule adjustments etc...it is a very loyal community and if you have a good attitude you'll get all the help you could want ![]() ~llewin |
Zarozynia |
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 03:32
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![]() Seer of Darkness ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 423 Member No.: 131 Joined: 10-April 04 ![]() |
Although I understand your feeling about not wanting
the main characters to overshadow your player characters (and this is
definately a sentiment that I agree with) I always want to ask this: why
do you have to run it the same way that RJ did? I think that one of the
most fun ways to role play within the books is to actually play at the
same time period and let your characters effect the events. If they
constantly choose to walk around going to places where the main
character's aren't, then events will still go on as normal. But let them
be important; there are a million people in the WoT world; and as RJ has
shown us...they all can play an important part. And I think that it can
make it fun for the GM to have to *react* to the choices that your
characters have made and adapt future events to better reflect
this. I'll give you an example: early in my campain my PCs had to rescue a girl that they knew who had been made damane in Falme; and they decided (without having pre-knowledge of the books, it was my non-WoT experts which came up with the plan) to try to kill the High Lord Turak as a distraction. They snuck in and consequently found the horn of valere and dagger of Shadar Logoth; both of which they took with them. The subsequent battle between the Seanchan and the Heroes happened because the young man who was holding the horn was then grabbed by the pattern and made ta'averen and forced (well..compelled might be the better word) to blow the horn to drive the Seanchan out of Falme. Only, Rand wasn't there to talk to Artur Hawkwing who would tell him that he was actually Lews Therin; as they blew the horn a couple of weeks early. On top of this, they took the dagger north; which I figured would kill Mat. My PCs have a task that they haven't even quite realized it: not only is The Dragon Reborn going much more insane than he would have otherwise; but he has sworn to the Dark One. They are going to have to spill his blood at the last battle to save the world. I find this immensely fun for me, because I get to rethink every move that Rand has made and go "would he still make this, being that he is Nael'blis?" and for them, because they get to fight this man who they've all been so convinced that they were going to have to work with to save the world. Just me thought. And welcome to the ranks... ![]() -------------------- Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing
experiment in writing/illustration/mythology Photographia Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource * Developing a Character: The Aiel * Amadicia Background: Complete with Whitecloak PC and new backgound feat * Moonwarrior - A Wolfbrother feat in the main Feats section |
Campin |
Posted: Oct 30 2004, 09:23
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Newbie ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3 Member No.: 194 Joined: 27-October 04 ![]() |
That’s true there are role-playing checks and balances in the form of Aes Sedai and the other things you stated. But still, think I'll rule that when performing a "Violet Throw" with the Arms of Air weave that it can only throw half the weight that you can lift with "Sustained Force", then I’m still gimping the power so you lift less weight per lvl. Casting Lvl---Weight (pounds)---Strength Eq. 0---5---1 1---25---2 2---50---5 3---100---10 4---200---15 5---300---18 6---400---20 7---600---23 8---800---25 9---1000---26 10---1500---29 11---3000---34 12---5000---38 13---8000---41 14---12000---44 15---25000---49 So now a lvl 5 caster with affinity air only deals 4d6 dmg, at lvl 7 it's 6d6, 8d6 at lvl 9 then jumping to 12d6 at lvl 11, 16d6 at 13. Considering the player cannot use this power in every circumstance and still needs to make an atk roll. What you think? Little better.
My concern with you second option is kinda what I stated in that, yes, I can have my players off running around somewhere else, only hearing about all these world shattering events happening and maybe taking small indirect adventures which may or may not visibly affect anything. But what fun is that when the players are left look but not really touch what is happening around them. What if they wanna get involved, the way I try to run a campaign is that the players are free to influence the world in anyway they choose. Of course there will be logical repercussions such as if they choose to murder someone than yes the law will be on your tail, but I hate railroading and that will be how it feels to me of I let them get involved, also one of my players have read a number of the novels so kinda a moot point. ![]() I like your 3rd option, a mirror world. That could really work; I can use the lush setting without even worrying about what happened in the novels. Who says Rand is even alive... yea... I like this one... ![]()
Ok, now I’m curious, so is Mat dead then? Did ya kill em? Zarozynia, you make some good points but I think the difference between us is scope and this kinda adds to what I said about Llewin’s second option. I have enough trying to worry about developing my own campaign with out having to worry about what all those power-players, from the novels, may or may not do. The last campaign I developed was very epic, filled with politics and intrigue, and may different groups angling for there own gains. Point is after a while it got to be a little too much to keep track of and as much as I like developing setting, story and characters, I just did not have the time... so this time I am going to try to keep it a lot simpler, they are starting in a small village and the theme will be to simply keep there homes safe.. It may get bigger as I develop it but for now just start small... Anyway thanks for your thoughts both Zarozynia and Llewin ![]() Campin This post has been edited by Campin on Nov 1 2004, 10:50 AM | ||||||
Niveus |
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 02:33
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 192 Member No.: 171 Joined: 4-July 04 ![]() |
hate to put it bluntly but One power weilders are
supposed to be Uber powerful compaired to the other classes as for arms of air how many 400 pound boulders have you run into in your lifetime I maybe have seen 3 in my campaign I allow my players to rip up trees etc.. but even so the targets would get a huge reflex save come on if I saw a tree start to float I'd book it well before it was flung This post has been edited by Niveus on Nov 1 2004, 02:37 AM -------------------- ![]() |
Campin |
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 12:13
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Newbie ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3 Member No.: 194 Joined: 27-October 04 ![]() |
That’s good mate, put it bluntly, and just keep it constructive! ![]() I think that by nerfing a singe power it is not going to seriously reduce the power of the channeler classes, considering I was concerned with the power of the Arms of Air weave relative to the power lvl of other weaves not other classes. Except for maybe the mountains, which the players may or may not adventure though a lot, not to may boulders, no. But since I hate changing rules mid-game I am trying to correct something I can see as becoming a foreseeable headache. Not that I don't trust my players just that the Arms of Air weave has potential to do kinds of dmg that players should not have until an appropriate lvl. Again, with affinity Air a lvl 5 initiate could inflict 16d6 (or 16-96) dmg. A lvl 9 one with an object half as dense as a boulder could do 60d3 (or 60-180) dmg, hurling an object 1500 pounds. Show me another power, except maybe balefire, with that kind of dmg potential. Note also that I chose to use the initiate's stats for all my examples. A wilder could inflict that kind of dmg at lvl 7, instead of 9. This brings me to the difference between the spells in standard D&D and the weaves out of WOT. The weaves are not very specific in what there limitations are, good example is a recent thread on this forum where the DM was asking if it is possible to use a low level Hardened Air weave to wrap it around the enemies face, thus suffocating him, because that is what his players though of. The weaves are written more like guidelines than rules it seems, most of the time, giving the player more creativity when using the weaves. But that has a lot of potential to be abused, "Why can't I do that with the weave, doesn't say I can't in the rules!". Now in standard D&D every spell is carefully written out, they are really much more specific with what they are capable of. So in short I am just trying to balance the power more with the capabilities of other weaves and have even added a little more functionality in the “Strength Equivalent” column, just so I know what kind of bonus the PCs get to the roll if they are trying to rip a door from its hinges or maybe a tree from the ground… ![]() Campin | ||
Sharn Penndroen |
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 03:01
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![]() Lemming Extraordinare ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 394 Member No.: 15 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Don't ever hesitate to pull the GM card. If a players
says, "It doesn't say that in the rules," you say, "I said, and my word is
law." Simple as that. ![]() -------------------- Not all that is gold, glitters. Not all who wonder
are lost. - Tolkein |
Llewin |
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 09:20
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 188 Member No.: 138 Joined: 25-April 04 ![]() |
Yes. The "I'm the DM that means I'm the Wheel and the
Pattern" I WEAVE AS I WILL card is always the best way to go with things
that dont fit your campaign... However, I have to agree with Niv here that the One Power is nothing like spells in D&D... it is VERY open ended, and I kindof think that some of the abilities/weaves in the book are *too* limiting which is why so many home-made weaves have appeared over the last couple of years... I had a group of players hold the sword-arm of a myrddrahl because my player was smart enough to think of it...and got the roll... you could certainly suffocate someone with the one power, however they wouldnt be completely helpless in the mean time... it takes a while for someone to pass out from suffocation and if they aren't alone i'm sure their allies would try to get to the channeller holding the weave... in any event if someone did that they are either evil, attacking shadowspawn, or defending their life, or else they are going to suffer serious cultural consequences *shrug* ![]() |
Niveus |
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 09:25
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![]() Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 192 Member No.: 171 Joined: 4-July 04 ![]() |
sharn is right if you don't like it say it doesn't
work that way Gm always has the final word you can always make hurling
heavy objects much harder and improve the reflex saves assaociated with it
etc.. as to why the weave descriptions/rules are vague unfortunalty as channling is described in the books as more like knitting with the 5 types of yarn then it is like a D&D Spell and as such you should have an almost infinate number of ways to use the one power, thats just not possible to reflect with pen and paper so they introduced the variance system and intentionally vague descriptions to give the right feel to the one power without the massive weave list, I always try to be constructive, sometimes I fail though --Niv-- -------------------- ![]() |
MagusRogue |
Posted: Nov 1 2004, 09:47
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![]() Village fool. Paid well. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1035 Member No.: 26 Joined: 16-January 04 ![]() |
actually, other systems can pull it off very well,
magic with variable effects. Look at Mage: the Ascencion.
-------------------- Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this rant's
done. Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed. |
Zarozynia |
Posted: Nov 2 2004, 03:17
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![]() Seer of Darkness ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 423 Member No.: 131 Joined: 10-April 04 ![]() |
Yes, I had Mat die from lack of White Tower healing
which he couldn't have without the dagger, which my players burried in the
plains of Arad Doman. And since I'm figuring that in many ways Mat's
happy-go-lucky additude can be seen as Rand's sanity card, so to speak,
well...I decided to have fun. So Perrin leaves to go to the Two Rivers
after they take the Stone of Tear (which happens differently and Rand
kills all of the Defenders and High Lords to do it); and the Rand heads
off into the waste; and meets up with Melindra. Who gets him to see the
greater forces at work, etc. Basically, my idea is that he's going to sweep down out of the Waste with the mostly united Aiel armies at his head in second Aiel war and decimate Cairhien and then declare himself king. As he did in Tear, BTW. Its only early june 999 NE (I know, there's no June in the WoT...but its easier for me to think about it that way) so I have a month or more in game before this happens; ah sweet innocence (on the parts of my characters currently) - I don't think that they will be able to doubt Rand's perhaps...evilness...after his next actions. ![]() -------------------- Legends of Darkness Are Not Always Myths - An Ongoing
experiment in writing/illustration/mythology Photographia Temple of the Goat - a philisophical weblog Diynen'd'ma'purvene - A Wheel of Time resource * Developing a Character: The Aiel * Amadicia Background: Complete with Whitecloak PC and new backgound feat * Moonwarrior - A Wolfbrother feat in the main Feats section |
Sharn Penndroen |
Posted: Nov 2 2004, 04:34
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![]() Lemming Extraordinare ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 394 Member No.: 15 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Yeah, speaking of creative, Steve told me of a player
that used a halfman's blade shadowblade to fight greater darkhounds. Can
only be healed with the one power so their regeneration was crapped out.
Yeah, he had a chance to fail the fort save, but atleast the Darkhound
would be dead. Even if he failed there was the incubation time. They would
get healing help from an Aes Sedai afterward. He was a Blademaster so a
sword in his hands could do a good bit. Just trying to say, Players are smarter than you expect at times. Be prepared for it. Award creativity. Stop munchkinism. -------------------- Not all that is gold, glitters. Not all who wonder
are lost. - Tolkein |
MagusRogue |
Posted: Nov 3 2004, 06:19
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![]() Village fool. Paid well. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1035 Member No.: 26 Joined: 16-January 04 ![]() |
hey, if you're dissatisfied with the rigidness of the
channeling rules, you can look in my post Previews of Some Stuff. I'm
trying to make a fluid, free-form channeling system for d20. It's alot of
work, and i would appreciate other rulesy people's comments
*coughSharncoughDrothgerycoughAnyoneReally* But yeah, felt like trying to
enrich the game even more. Warning though, it's not newbie-friendly. But
when you try to make a freeform magic system, it'll never be
newbie-friendly. -------------------- Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this rant's
done. Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed. |
drothgery |
Posted: Nov 5 2004, 08:54
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 182 Member No.: 25 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
I'm not really a big fan of free-form magic systems. I understand some people like them, so I try not to be too critical of them... -------------------- | ||
MagusRogue |
Posted: Nov 5 2004, 08:55
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![]() Village fool. Paid well. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1035 Member No.: 26 Joined: 16-January 04 ![]() |
ahh... well i did figure it would be closer to how
the book does things. -------------------- Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this rant's
done. Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed. |
drothgery |
Posted: Nov 6 2004, 02:28
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 182 Member No.: 25 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
micro-rant (only a micro-rant because I'm guilty of this): Something like 90% of the house rules proposed for d20 WoT are presented as attemts to be "closer to the novels", even if they change the game in a way that completely contradicts another proposed house rule to make things "closer to the novels". -------------------- | ||
Llewin |
Posted: Nov 6 2004, 02:33
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Elder Scholar ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 188 Member No.: 138 Joined: 25-April 04 ![]() |
micro-justification lol..only a micro one though ![]() so everyone doesnt agree on the 'feel of the books'...thats pretty standard...the great thing about working together as a community though is that we should be able to eventually come up with rules that the greater majority is happy with and that still have good playabilty and good accuracy to RJ's world ![]() come on people now...smile on your brother...everybody get together...try to love one another right now lol |
Axel |
Posted: Nov 6 2004, 03:13
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Freelance HTML coder (hint Aleshandre) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 338 Member No.: 54 Joined: 23-January 04 ![]() |
Well, I just want to say that the boards have had
ongoing debates about several things. One of the big ones is the Algai.
Some say its idiotic to make it a class, other say it fills a niche, I say
make it a bloody PrC. We've also had arguments about the Noble, that one
really is idiotic as its own class, it should be a
background. We've also all done so much to play with the rules that if you combined the aterations they would be unrecognizable from the original. So if you're looking for a change odds are you'll find it somewhere on these boards. -------------------- Honorary Paladin of the Lawful Naughty If I seem to hate the d20 system, its only because I hate the system. Actually I just hate 3e, its biased me against the system. I rather like WoT. |
Sharn Penndroen |
Posted: Nov 6 2004, 05:04
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![]() Lemming Extraordinare ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 394 Member No.: 15 Joined: 15-January 04 ![]() |
Very true, Axel. I think you could count on one hand
the members of this board that play WoT with the rules exactly as stated
in the book. ![]() The biggest monkeying I've done was skill based channeling. I personally like it. I understand what you are talking about Drothgery. I usually roll my eyes when someone says, "this will be closer to the books." Not because I think they are wrong but because someone could have done something totally opposite and claim to be getting closer to the books. The main reason why I opted for developing a skill based channeling system is because I didn't like using the dnd magic/spell slot system. I just felt like I was forcing it to fit into the world when I used it. It seemed to artificial. That said, I've never disregarded the original channeling system as worthless. Different people run their games differently. For some games my system would be crap, I'm sure. But it works for my group. I'm sure that most other DMs on the board would agree that you will adapt the game based on your group and what works best for them. -------------------- Not all that is gold, glitters. Not all who wonder
are lost. - Tolkein |
Guest |
Posted: Nov 8 2004, 09:22
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Unregistered ![]() |
If my players are being abusive of the rules than yea.. I do. But I have found that an open dialogue can be a lot better when the player in question has good reasoning behind it.... Frankly I have been in campaigns where my reasoning (interpretation of the rules) has been shut out with these words "My word is the law" and so I try not to take that approach unless I absolutely have to.
I agree I would allow this of my player, I would give the target a bonus to it reflex save relative to the size of its head (For a human, tiny, so +2). I know that the d20 system is not a exact system to represent real life but suffocation is truly a horrible experience and so I would make the creature that is suffocating have to roll a concentration check to do anything other than claw at it throat. The exception is if the creature knows that it is a channeller and whom that channeller is that is causing this than it would most surly go after that person.
A friend if mine owns and has DMed a Mage: the Ascension game, it sounds really quite neat. I have noticed your "Previews of Some Stuff" post but have yea to read it. I will though.
Moment of silence for poor Mat... Sounds interesting... you really mixed it up well, Rand has really lost it. Wonder will you have Perrin rejoin with Rand or join with the players against Rand. Can't imagine that gentle giant wanting anything to do with him now. My campaign starts about 13 years after the Aiel wars in the Village of Wood's Hollow (my creation), north of Baerlon. The players who are 2 constables with in the village are going to have to save a young boy named Logain (any guess who this is) who is going to be taken by Trollocs along with a number of other kids. After following the kidnappers to an open waygate and just saving the kids in time the village council will ask them to make a journey which will eventually lead to Tar Valon to get help closing the open waygate (which will have to include going to see Ogiers in their Stedding). They will arrive (with Aes Sedai in tow) to battle a larger Trolloc invasion that no matter what will have succeeded in taking Logain who will eventually remerge (brainwashed) as the false dragon and the players will have to contend with him. ![]() | ||||||||
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