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> Yet another OP option..., My latest look at the OP system.
Aleshandre
Posted: May 28 2004, 03:51 PM
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I originally wrote this up in the Affinities thread, but I thought that I would get more feedback if I posted it in its own thread. I wrote this on the fly as I thought of it, so it is in first draft. Feedback is welcome; however, I already know the "why mess with what works" arguement against any new ideas for running the One Power, so don't bother with those please.


3 new skills:

Power (con); Measures the amount of raw power that a person can use unaided. For men, this represents Saidin, for women Saidar.

Fleuency (int); Measures the technical skill of the channeler. This represents the ability to perform intricate or otherwise complex (though not necessarilly powerful) weaves.

Intensity (wis); Measures the ability to channel large quantities of the power. This represents the ability to use high powered (though not necessarilly complex) weaves. note: This skill does not effect the weave level in any way, but does affect the save DC for weaves that allow saves.

New effect for affinities:
Affinities grant a +1 misc. modifier to skill checks for the One Power for each affinity that the character has.

How this affects the mechanics (the way I intend it):
-Each weave needs to be adjusted to indicate which skill it is related to.
-Only members of a Channeling Tradition may take ranks in Fleuency or Intensity.
-Weaves made outside of the character's Talents must be made with the Power skill (basically the catch-all skill).
-If a channeler doesn't have the skill that a weave is associated with, the Power skill is used.
-Critical failure is a possible consequence of weaves cast with the Power skill.
-Overchanneling rolls use the Power skill (this is only rolls to determine success, not fort saves for failure).
-Angreal and Sa'angreal now give their bonus to the skill roll for channelling.
-Intensity based weaves that have a related save DC is increased by 1/2 times the character's ranks in intensity (rounded down).

Okay that's it.

This post has been edited by Aleshandre on May 28 2004, 06:01 PM


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drothgery
Posted: May 28 2004, 03:57 PM
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obReminder: As near as I can tell, it's impossible to overchannel while linked or using a buffered angreal/sa'angreal. The only known unbuffered sa'angreal is Callandor. There are no known unbuffered angreal.


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Aleshandre
Posted: May 28 2004, 04:05 PM
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Right, I was trying to modify the current rules as little as possible and IIRC, the current rules for angreal grant a bonus to overchanneling checks. I'll double check the book and make the change if I am wrong.


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Axel
Posted: May 28 2004, 04:40 PM
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Why is intensity related to Charisma? A person's ability to interact with other people shouldn't have anything to do with their ability to channel.


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Two Rivers Wolfbrother
Posted: May 28 2004, 05:00 PM
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I think this is a great idea. Using skills for the One Power. I think Charisma's fine for Instensity.
What kinds of weaves would use Fluency and Intensity? I would have thought that they would all use Power and the other two skills would be for other things. Intensity for, say, overchanneling and multiweaving, and Fluency for channeling weaves with more Affinities than the channeler has, or something like that. Maybe some weaves could be used with Fluency, but only for a while. I don't know.
I like this idea, though.


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Aleshandre
Posted: May 28 2004, 06:01 PM
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I think that Axel is right on intensity. Now that I think about that, wisdom would be the more appropriate ability since it governs things like will power as well, but that means that fluency would have to be linked to either charisma or to intelligence. Intelligence would probably be best. (that's the kind of feedback I wanted.)

Weaves that would be governed by intensity are weaves where quantity or sheer force are more important than skill with weaving. Some that I am thinking of ringt now are:

Fortell Weather (common for wilders to have this one)
Harness the Wind (Windfinders use massive amounts of Saidar to affect the winds - described by Elayne as using massive ropes of Air and Water)
Lightning (I'm starting to see a definite pattern here myself)
Raise Fog
Warmth
Grenade
Riven Earth
Arms of Air
Create Fire
Current
Dry
Fireball
Harden Air
Immolate
Whirlpool

All others I think would be best suited by the Fluency skill.


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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 29 2004, 02:43 AM
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See I have had alot of thought about the fundamental differences between sadin and sadar. If you had one weaving skill and each person had a general power level you could let women use Charisma as their base ability and men would use Constitution. I think this would represent the way that women have to bargin with Sadar and men have to direct and force Sadin into what they want.

I am working on something along the lines of what I have already aluded to. I think what you have Aleshandre is cool, no criticism here , just have my own take is all. I will get post it soon as it is finished. I am having to work on it a litttle at the time as I am very busy latly. I think I am going to have most of the week end off so I will try to get it finished.


Aleshandre, thank you, you have been the most tremendous help to me in this with the insight you provided in an earlier post. It got me over most of my creative hurdles and got the flow of my idea moving again.



Peace
J


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Aleshandre
Posted: May 29 2004, 11:44 AM
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I have thought about the difference between Saidin and Saidar too, but I haven't been able to think of a good way to model it. The main reason that I don't differenciate is because when men and women link, the one leading the circle can use both as if gender made no difference. I think that the Power skill represents this well without differenciating. I did this also because both men and women become fatigued by channelling, so it just made sense. I considered having a different skill for each element, but I decided that it would slow down the system too much. As it is, it makes relatively few changes to the current system, while (I think) making it conform to the feel of the novels.


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Kakita Aramoro
Posted: May 31 2004, 04:38 AM
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it seems to me that you are trying to make wilders use only the power skill for everything, and the initiate use fluency and intensity instead, using power only for overchanelling. does'nt that make power nearly useless to initiates, but the only usefull skill for wilders? I mean both would need concentration still to multyweave and maintain their weaves past distractions, and I suppose weavesight to learn and identify weaves.

so, Initiate needs: concentration, fluency, intensity, power (minor necesity, can be overlooked at your own risk), weavesight, and something to give you character. Wilder needs: concentration, Power (all your skill ranks go here, and definitely skill focus), weavesight, and something to give you character.

hmn, not too balanced, or did I miss something?
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Lariane Sedai
Posted: May 31 2004, 08:31 AM
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Don't worry my dear. I think you will have to accept that these... men... have no desire to be balanced, in the game or in the head.
Okay. Lariane the conservative Red speaking again. I have yet to see a good reason for changing the system of the One Power as set out in the original WoT setting book. Sure, it would be great if that system mirrored the way the power is wielded in the books exactly, but I think to do that would require excessive fiddling and technical tables, slowing down gameplay incredibly. Introducing skills that affect the fundemental way a user wields the one power basically make those skills compulsory for channelers, or else they miss out on the benefits. As Kakita said, this added to the pretty much compulsory Concentration and Weavesight skills leave a first level Initiate or even Wilder with not enough skill points to go around.
Oh, and another thing. In the books, Nynaeve is born an incredibly powerful channeler - she can take and hold more power than any other woman in the White Tower, even when she is a relatively weak character in terms of advancement. This would lead me to believe that IF a system were to cater for natural skill and capacity (and this would require players accepting the possibility that their initiate will never channel more than a spark in her life) it should be some kind of process tied in with character generation. In the Novels, the aptitude is referred to as an inborn thing - why shouldn't this carry into the game?
If of course one was to do something like that which I wouldn't. wink.gif

Sincerely,
Lariane Sedai


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Aleshandre
Posted: May 31 2004, 02:59 PM
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I am actually trying to maintain balance. I actually intended for certain traditions to teach either Intensity (Windfinders/Suldam/damane) or Fluency (Aes Sedai/Wise Ones) The Asha'man would teach both and focus on Power as well, beause of the speed and intensity of their training as well as the focus. While it is true that I intended for wilders to use only the Power skill, they are not precluded from learning the other skills (much like Elayne did with the windfinder during the journey to Ebou Dar).
I hadn't thought of the skillpoint aspect, thanks for the reminder.

As I said, I've heard all of the "don't mess with what works" arguements and I find them all lacking in one very simple logical response to one simple and obvious arguement in favor of trying new systems for channeling:
A channeling system can be created that is not much more complex than the current system, but better models channeling as described in the novels, without unbalancing the game. Such a system would be beneficial to the WoT RPG, because the fans (us) would be better satisfied overall with such a system.

I have seen several systems for modeling channeling (and created 2 including this one), each has its benefits and drawbacks (my first attempt is a 7th stat system that I think works well, but I am aware falls short). Nynaeve was born "with more potential", but she was not at the time that Moirane found her more powerful than any Aes Sedai, rather she would be more powerful. The 7th stat system better models channelers who are born more powerful, but still falls short on the skill with channeling aspect. If I can work out the skill point problem and any balance issues, I believe that this would work well with my 7th stat to give a very good system, but lets focus on one at a time.

The only way that I can think of to correct the problem of more "required" skills is to increase the skillpoints for channeler class characters. Initiates would need more than Wilders, but too many extra per level and we would have a real balance problem. I'm thinking 2 extra per level for Wilders and 3 for Initiates (the same as well for PrCs that are channeling based). All of the base classes in WoT except the wanderer only have 4 skillpoints per level, so that wouldn't be too much I think.

Any other balance issues?

By the way Laraine, here, we don't use personal attacks to discuss game mechanics. I actually try to maintain balance when I write new rules and I have been doing so for some time.

This post has been edited by Aleshandre on May 31 2004, 03:06 PM


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 31 2004, 11:25 PM
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As to the comment about it being unbalanced for The Wilder to only have to put ranks in Power and an Intiate has more places to spread it around, remember that if you always rely on Power you run the risk of a Critical Failure. Just thought that I'd point that out.

Truthfully, I'd like to see something done with the One Power, like they did the Force in The Star War RPG. But that is something that I don't feel like I have a sufficient grasp of to take a go at it. Maybe someday.


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Lariane Sedai
Posted: Jun 1 2004, 12:48 AM
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Aleshandre, I certainly didn't mean to offend you in any way - by personal attack I can only assume you mean the first line of my post which
a) is what we like to call roleplaying and having a joke, staying characteristically Red
cool.gif even if it was a serious comment it referred to men in general, not neccesarily you
As I said, I'm sorry if you were offended, and if you didn't want your methods constructively critiscized (which is what I was trying to do, however it came across) you shouldn't post them on a forum. Balance is an important aspect of the game as anything else, and I don't take back any of what i said... as a friend is so fond of saying
[ Peace biggrin.gif
Sincerely,
Lariane Sedai of the Red Ajah


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 1 2004, 03:37 PM
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Yes, I meant the first line. I did not realize that you were playing in character. Since you are new here, it may take some time for people to get to know your sense of humor. I appologize for the misconception (here and in the AoD/WoP thread). I will remember to take such comments with more humor from now on.
As for constructive criticism, that is exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately, I didn't see any comments on balance in your post, that I was able to distinguish from the rest of the comments about not needing to change the system. I personally do feel the need to create a better system for using the OP and to that end, I am working on improving the system we have and revising what in my mind is unsatisfactory.
I think that perhaps using a system similar to the Force system in SW would be better. That system uses skills and feats to represent the various abilities in the force and it draws away from physical energy to do so. The problem that I have with it is that having a system as different as VP/WP is from HP - is that it requires more effort to convert monsters and weapons from other settings, as well as some of the revised Feats and special abilities. I know that for the most part, monsters wouldn't be dragged and dropped into the WoT world, because of the setting, but weapons and Feats/SA are often transfered for the recent reworks for "3.5" WoT.
I do think that it would be workable for the subdual damage system that is in place though. I can see each weave costing an amount of subdual damage equal to it's level (1/2 point for 0 level) for overchanneling, it should be level +1 subdual. As it is, negative subdual HP results in unconciousness, so it covers the loss of physical strength very well. So to rehash what I have here:

3 new skills:

Power (con); Measures the amount of raw power that a person can use unaided. For men, this represents Saidin, for women Saidar.

Fleuency (int); Measures the technical skill of the channeler. This represents the ability to perform intricate or otherwise complex (though not necessarilly powerful) weaves.

Intensity (wis); Measures the ability to channel large quantities of the power. This represents the ability to use high powered (though not necessarilly complex) weaves. note: This skill does not effect the weave level in any way, but does affect the save DC for weaves that allow saves.

New effect for affinities:
Affinities grant a +1 misc. modifier to skill checks for the One Power for each affinity that the character has.

How this affects the mechanics (the way I intend it):
-Each weave needs to be adjusted to indicate which skill it is related to.
-Only members of a Channeling Tradition may take ranks in Fleuency or Intensity.
-Weaves made outside of the character's Talents must be made with the Power skill (basically the catch-all skill).
-If a channeler doesn't have the skill that a weave is associated with, the Power skill is used.
-Critical failure is a possible consequence of weaves cast with the Power skill.
-Overchanneling rolls use the Power skill (this is only rolls to determine success, not fort saves for failure).
-Angreal and Sa'angreal now give their bonus to the skill roll for channelling.
-Intensity based weaves that have a related save DC is increased by 1/2 times the character's ranks in intensity (rounded down).
-Each weave costs an amount of subdual HP equal to casting level. 0 level weaves cost 1/2 point per weave. Overchannelling costs casting level +1.
-Initiates get 7 skill points per level, gain Power and may have either Intensity or Fluency as class skills (based on Tradition; Windfinders and Suldam/Damane should take intensity, Wise Ones and Aes Sedai should take Fluency, Asha'man may take either). The other skill is a cross class skill.
-Wilders get 6 Skill points per level and gain Power as a class skill. Intensity and Fluency are cross class skills for Wilders.
-Only characters who are able to channel may take ranks in these 3 skills.

Now that I think about it, using a Background for Channeling traditions would make sense. Let me think about that for a while....

This post has been edited by Aleshandre on Jun 1 2004, 03:38 PM


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Aleshandre
Posted: Jun 3 2004, 01:59 PM
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BUMP!!!


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Axel
Posted: Jun 3 2004, 07:03 PM
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You could try the traditions as a modified feat tree. Give me a little to make something up....


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