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> New Overchanneling Options, For those who wish to gain more bang!
MagusRogue
Posted: Nov 8 2004, 06:33 PM
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ok, so far the rules have it that you can overchannel to cast weaves of higher levels, or keep casting after you run out. I say this is fine. however, why can't you overchannel to increase the efficiency of your weaves, or cast weaves you don't know ad-hoc? Then I found a solution. New overchanneling options! Here, for your perusal.

CODE
Effect                             Skill DC    Fort Save DC
Enhance a Weave                        15           10
Empower a Weave                        20           15 + (2 x slot increase)
Adhoc a Weave                          25*          15 + (2 x weave level)
* - see description below


Enhance a Weave: By successfully overchanneling, you may increase the save DC of any weave by +3. You may only do this 3 times per day.
Empower a Weave: Upon succeeding, you may add any metaweave feat (with the exception of Heighten Weave) to the feat. You may only do this once per day,
Adhoc a Weave: You may successfully cast a weave you do not know at any casting level. The DC of both the overchannel and the Fort save increases by +5 if you do not have the talent for the weave, and +10 if you cannot normally cast the weave at that level due to Channeling Level or Ability Scores. Thus, casting a 9th level weave in a talent you do not have when you can only safely cast 5th level weaves is a DC of 40 and a Fort Save DC of 48. This uses a slot equal to the casting level, or the highest level slot available, which ever is less.

if you adhoc a HIGH level weave you can't cast...... better pray to the Light that you make the concentration check, or else you're screwed.... Of course, this system favors Wilders, but as the book points out, Wilders ARE better at doing things on the fly, after all.

Comments, anyone? I wasn't sure what to put the Fort Save DC's at, so....

This post has been edited by MagusRogue on Nov 8 2004, 06:34 PM


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Llewin
Posted: Nov 8 2004, 07:27 PM
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have you taken a look at my channelling rule adjustment post as well, mag, i dont remember..

i have a few questions:

firstly, and this is just a pet peeve of mine, why would there be a resist to most weaves anyway, unless the person being cast-on is a channeller? i mean how do you dodge hardened air or arms of air?

now a lightning bolt, or fireball i can see having a reflex save... but intangible, invisible weaves with no outward indication that they are being cast until they are complete?

second, explain the metaweave effects? example? i dont remember meta-effects in the book so i'm guessing you are either adapting directly from the d&d meta effects for spells or there is a netbook or some other online info?

now the idea behind casting ad-hoc or on-the-fly weaves that you dont know is a good one, my adjustments have room for that as well under the 'reseach/overchanneling' rule adjustments (its still a work in progress of course) but i'm not sure about being able to spontaneously cast a weave you arent powerful enough to even know without having to overchannel...

here's why... i always felt that it seemed like if you were too weak in the one power to cast a weave you were too weak to be able to follow the pattern of the weave as well...meaning you just couldnt learn it... but as i write this i also recall that when egwene was teaching the salidar aes sedai the weave for Traveling even the ones who werent strong enough to cast it could make the pattern, they just couldnt complete it... so i dont know, maybe it does work smile.gif

i wish we could devise a simple system for the one power, not overly complicated but that had all of the flexibility... maybe DC based on the relative 'range' or relative 'level' of the weaves effect?
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MagusRogue
Posted: Nov 8 2004, 09:20 PM
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1) intuition, my friend. Plus, there is a visible effect, a shimmering of air. Lastly, from a gamemaster's perspective, you really want invincible, unavoidable powers? without a save DC, you could harden air around, say, a thunderworm, and suffocate it, thus taking out a CR E creature, when statwise you should only be able to kill trollocs. Is that fair? What about you playing the Big Bad Blademaster, and be taken out by an Accepted who just suffocates you, denying you all your finely-honed reflexes? Things like that. They added save DC's so the game wouldn't get too out of hand. Channelers are already uber-powerful. Don't need to make it worse.

2) Metaweaves are, simply, metamagics from DnD. They represent knowledge of how to cast weaves in unique and more effective ways. Such as Nynaeve's extraordinary healing she does (in game terms, she uses either Empower Weave or Maximize Weave, or maybe even both. I'd say Maximize at the least though). I've posted them more than once here, and sent them in to the Tome of the One Power netbook project as well.

3) True, I was myself a bit skeptical about allowing weaves you shouldn't be able to cast. But, then, how could Rand have cast Balefire on those darkhounds that were coming after him? Also, I don't let you learn weaves you ad hoc unless you have Sense Residue and take 10 minutes to sit down and analyze exactly what in the hell you just did. *G* Remember, although you know OOC what you did, IC you have no idea how you did that.

Anything else?


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Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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Llewin
Posted: Nov 9 2004, 05:09 AM
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mag what do you think about my 'fix' for making things more accurate to the books for channelers casting ?

Using weaves that require a ranged target:
  • To use a weave that requires a ranged target (not target self or touch) acts similarly to using a ranged weapon.
  • Instead of DC equal to the character's DEF score the base DC to hit with a ranged spell is 18
  • Modifiers to this base DC are as follows:
    • Cover:
      • One Quarter Cover:.......................+ 2 to DC
      • One-Half cover:.............................+ 4 to DC
      • Three-Quarter Cover:....................+ 7 to DC
      • Nine-Tenths cover:........................+10 to DC
    • Target is in melee:...................................+ 2 to DC
    • Target is flatfooted:..................................- 2 to DC
    • Coup de Gras applies, weave succeeds automatically.
    • Each additional ranged weave cast during the same round receives a +5 to the DC to hit
    • When rolling to cast a ranged weave roll 1d20 + 1/2 channeller level (minimum 1) + both channeller modifiers (eg. Int and Wis for Initiates; Wis and Cha for Wilders)
my feeling is that the channellers ability to hit a ranged target should be based more on their ability to focus and use the one power effectively... with that in mind i basically just created a variable DC which i feel fairly accurately simulates hitting a high DEF rating at the worst possible combination...

example: anayana the lvl 3 accepted with INT 14 WIS 13 casts arms of air on a misfit who just threw a rotten tomato at her while she was out shopping in Tar Valon proper...

Base DC: 18
he is a smallish kid so he has 1/4 cover from the grownups around him for a +2 DC
Total DC: 20
Anayana rolls 1d20 +1(1/2 chan lvl) +3(int and wis mod combined)
Total 1d20+4 to hit DC 18 to capture the running misfit before he gets away... at lvl 3 does a +4 modifier to hit seem reasonable?

regarding pinning down a worm..these things are HUGE so you'ld have to be able to cast harden air at a fairly high level just to have a chance to surround the things head or body with air, otherwise you're just making a partial wall or tunnel it can move around...

This post has been edited by Llewin on Nov 9 2004, 05:10 AM
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MagusRogue
Posted: Nov 9 2004, 05:17 AM
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most attack weaves already figure that in. if it's an actual attack, then you need to make a ranged touch attack. if it's an indirect one, a fire-and-forget such as Fireball, then no roll is needed, as the spell goes where it's directed. Hitting someone with a blunt Arms of Air or Tool of Air needs an attack roll.


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Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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Llewin
Posted: Nov 9 2004, 08:15 AM
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yes...but the difference is that an invisible arm of air shouldnt have an atk versus someones defense... they cant see it coming so how on earth could they defend or dodge it?

so why not make it based entirely on the ability of the channeller?
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MagusRogue
Posted: Nov 9 2004, 03:59 PM
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Can you dodge things you can't see? All because you can't see it doesn't mean you can't avoid it. Reflexes aren't just simply "I see it and I get out of the Way!" Otherwise, you'd have no hope against traps either.


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Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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Zarozynia
Posted: Nov 9 2004, 07:30 PM
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I see where both of you are going with this, you're very right Magus, the game doesn't work when there isn't a counter for channeling, hence we give the subjects reflex saves. BUT I agree with Llewin that getting a reflex save for a weave that you cant see which takes place in the matter of three seconds or less is a stretch to me. I think that I would go with making a touch attack based against the characters defense...as they would be moving around in battle as we've already been talking about so they should get their dex bonus. Obviously armor compatability bonus' shouldn't apply in this situation.

Llewin, if you want to make a base DC as I think that you have been talking about (I could reread your post...but I'm lazy) I would make a base and then add the character's dex bonus on top of that. I dont think that they can dodge out of the way, but I do think that they would be dodging naturally because of the battle.

On the other hand, channelers of the same sex and characters with blind fight or other means of locating invisible attackers should all get a reflex save.

This post has been edited by Zarozynia on Nov 9 2004, 07:33 PM


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Nov 10 2004, 02:17 AM
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I'm with Magus. I think a Refex save deals with more than whether or not you see it. Do you disallow all reflex saves if your party is walking through darkness? I mean... Really. Like Magus said, you don't always see Traps either. If I were to take Ref saves out for everything people didn't see then they'd be screwed.


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Llewin
Posted: Nov 10 2004, 02:51 AM
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not necessarily *see* but *sense*

if you are walking in the dark and the floor begins to crumble or the ceiling collapses you have other senses... hearing...smell...touch... that can clue you in to whats happening.. when a bubble of hardened air appears around you, pinning your arms to your side and lifting you off the ground...it just...happens...no warning... EG nyneave and siuan on the boat to Tar Valon in The Great Hunt.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Nov 10 2004, 02:51 AM
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*nods* thanks for backing me up, Sharn.

Now, back to the actual topic. Should I make casting a weave Ad-Hoc more like channeling when you have no slots left? basically, can only cast unknown weaves at the level you can cast, 1, 2, and 3 levels hgiher, with respectively increasing DC's?


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Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Nov 10 2004, 02:54 AM
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So you're saying, Llewin, that your other senses, which would alert you to an incoming dart from a trap wouldn't alert you to wind suddenly being thrown at you? dry.gif Logic's a little fuzzy there. You'd be able to feel the pressure change, hear the wind being whipped, maybe even smell the humidity change as the air's being manipulated. Don't tell me you can't use your other senses. And as for nynaeve being taken by surprise? She was taken by surprise. I would call that VERY simply failing a saving throw.


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Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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Llewin
Posted: Nov 10 2004, 07:13 PM
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Lol... well i'm not saying there wouldnt be saving throws for *some* things for non-channellers or beings that cant sense channelling (like myrdraal) but only the noticable ones and i dont personally think things like arms of air and whatnot are noticable... i think we should chalk it up to difference of opinion smile.gif

deal?

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shaun
Posted: Nov 17 2004, 05:16 AM
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Rand using weaves that he doesn't know is really more like you kinda superimpose a level 20 initiate character onto his ie Lewis Therin. It seems to be more that he remembers stuff from his previous life in stressfull situations. Since you really seem to more remember the feel of how a weave goes together rather than where every thread of the power goes (in my opinion) then this would be an option.

I'm pretty sure that it has allready been concluded on these froums that anyone justifying a rule by that Rand or the "super girls" etc can to it should be shot. They do not fit into the conventional wourld view.
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MagusRogue
Posted: Nov 17 2004, 06:10 AM
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actually, as the players are meant to be like the Awesome Ones, then yes it does very much apply. Also, the books never said they're the only ones who ad-hoc weaves. how do you think new weaves are made?


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Magus the Extreme. Your wonderfully-ghoulish GM of Patterns of the Weave. Be fearful, indeed.
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