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> Linking System, It really sucks in the rule book.......
shaun
  Posted: Jul 11 2004, 10:39 AM
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One thing I have been suprised at is that no-one seems to have picked up on the fact that the system for linking in the rule book hardly even resembles that in the books. It doesn't take into acount that for example if a level 20 initiate links with you you are going to gain more strength than if a level one initiate does. A homemade WoT RPG that I found on the web seems to have a good system of doing this basically using a strength in the power stat. What you do is you find the points (Below) for each member of the circle and add them up then convert it back to strength (or maximum weave level or whatever).

Strength Points
1________1
2________3
3________6
4________10
5________15
6________21
7________28

To get the points value for a higher strength than I have listed you can go to the original site and then the channeling page or you just add the level of strength to the points from the previous level. Eg strength 6=21 points +7 = 28 points for strength 7. In this system you work out how much angreal help your strength as well as they have a points value which which you add to the points for your strength to get your strength with it just as if it were a person that you were linking with.

This would work really well in a channeling system that took into acount both how much power an individual could draw and how skilled they are at weaving it, unfortunately the official version sucks bad and doesn't do so.

hope this all makes sence biggrin.gif
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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 11 2004, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE
One thing I have been suprised at is that no-one seems to have picked up on the fact that the system for linking in the rule book hardly even resembles that in the books. It doesn't take into acount that for example if a level 20 initiate links with you you are going to gain more strength than if a level one initiate does.

You are far from being the only one that thinks the linking rules are broken. In fact they are certainly the worst thing they made in the RPG. UtDB has a slightly modified version of the linking rules of the RPG, but it doesn't solve all the problems. I read in an old post (on the wizards old forum) which said that Compton's liking rules solved all of the major problems with the linking rules. However, I never managed to get a look at it as the links to the old One Power Forums were broken. If anyone has a copy of it, I would really like to see it.

As for the problem that when a powerful channeler enters a circle, it should make the circle more powerful than when a weak one enters, I could propose you the following rules. A circle gets a channeler level and a main channeling stat:

Channeler level of the circle. The channeler level of the circle is:

Channeler level of the leader + on fith of the channeler level of each other member

This enables circles to cast higher level weaves than normal.

Main channeling stat of the circle. The main channeling stat of the circle is:

Highest main channeling stat of the members of the circle + mod of the stats of all other members

This allows circles to cast more complex weaves than normal.

A circle also gets affinities in the following way:

Affinities of the circle. The affinities of the circle are the affinities of all members present in the circle.

This makes linking much more powerful and much more realistic, as per the BBoBA:

QUOTE
According to what the circle was intended to achieve, members were recruited depending on their strengths in the Five Powers while the leader was chosen more for skill.


The other main problem that should be dealt with is the shielding problem: a full 13 circle of female channelers should be able to overcome any men and no man should be able to break a shield being maintained by 6 female channelers.

I made a system (called "channeler duel system", which I posted on the wizards forums) that deals with this issue, but it heavily modifies the core rules. If you are interested, I could post it here.
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jul 11 2004, 04:15 PM
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Zinuk, didn't you tell me that the BBoBA states that the power of a circle is dependent only upon the number involved and that skill is only important in the leader of that circle. If that is the case, then you should't receive any more benefits from being linked to a higher level character.

In the Skill Based Channeling system that I recently did, the only benefit you would get form linking with a higher level character is that they could take more subdual damage from the weave cost. That is to represent that they can handle more Power being pulled through them without becoming exhausted. But they don't receive any extra bonuses to the circle for linking more skilled people.

Zinuk, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have the BBoBA, or I would look it up myself.


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bmtc
Posted: Jul 11 2004, 05:47 PM
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quote out of the BBoBA on page 24

"The cumulative strength of a circle depends on its size, the strengths of the individuals linked, whether or not angreal or sa'angreal are used, and the balance between male and female members in the circle. Although men are stronger than women, the strongest linked circles were those which contained nearly equal numbers of men and women. A smaller circle with a closer balance can be stronger than a large, unbalanced circle....
...According to what the circle was intended to achieve, members were recruited depending on their strengths in the five powers while the leader was chosen more for skill. It also seems that certain balances of male and female were considered best for certain tasks, and also certain sizes of circles. A circle of sevety-two may have been the larges and most powerful combination, but it was not always the best for desired results. Some tasks were best acomplished by a circle of one man and one women, despite its limited strength, while others were more efficiently done with greater numbers."
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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 11 2004, 05:53 PM
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Here are the revelant parts of the BBoBA talking about a circle's powers.
QUOTE
The primary value of the circle is its capacity for singular focus of multiple energies. It is impossible to focus two or more individuals flows precisely on the same task, no matter how skilled the channelers, but when linked the person leading the circle dan direct and channel the combined flows witht the same pinpoint accuracy as if she/he were directing only one flow.
These combined flows handle more Power than any one member could channel alone, with more precision than several seperate flows, but the linked flow is not as strong as each of the separate strengths added together. In other words, the link does not combine flows in a purely additive manner. Two women linked can handle more than either could separately, and with much greater control than with multiple flows - because it is a single flow - but they cannot hangdle as much as the two could separately. This limit holds however large the circle. It is the precision of the circles that makes them so powerful. The exact strike of one chisel can split a stone that would withstand any number of blows from a hammer.
[...]
The cumulative strength of a circle depends on its size, the strengths of the individuals linked, whether or not angreal or sa'angreal are used, and the balance between male and female members in the circle.
[...]
According to what the circle was intended to achieve, members were recruited depending on their strengths in the Five Powers while the leader was chosen more for skill.

This makes it clear that the skill of the leader is the most important, and it would indeed seem quite strange that the other member's skill adds to that of the leader (unless the awareness of the other members gained when forming a circle forms a sort of mental link that makes the leader gain some skills from the other members; but that's only speculation).

The reason that I suggested to use the mod (instead of a fixed number) is that, with the default system, both strength and skill are represented by the same things (both your main channeling stat and your channeler level): there is no difference between low power/high complexity or high power/low complexity weaves.

With a skill-based system, you control directly the skill aspect, and so the bonus should only depend on the number of the channelers, and not on their skills (leader excepted).

Of course, I may be wrong, but that's how I see things for the time being.
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: Jul 11 2004, 08:40 PM
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Yeah, Zinuk, I agree with you.

Thanks for the quote bmtc. I guess if you are using the standard weave slot based system, then you have to decide what determines the "skill level" and what determines the "power" or "potential" of a channeler. I would actually think that channeler level would more represent "skill level" and a relevant ability modifier would represent "power". If you were using, an alternate 7th stat rule like Aleshandre's then you would of course use the modifer for it.

Zinuk, I'd like to see your channeler duel system. Could you post it as a new topic?


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 11 2004, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE
If you were using, an alternate 7th stat rule like Aleshandre's then you would of course use the modifer for it.

Exactly. In fact, I am using the Five Power Strength system (a 7th stat variant) that Aleshandre put in his AoD Netbook. It allows greater customisation, like channelers being strong in Fire but very weak in Air, which I think is more realistic (and not more complicated than adding a 7th stat).

QUOTE
Zinuk, I'd like to see your channeler duel system. Could you post it as a new topic?

I've done as you requested. Hope you like it.
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Niveus
Posted: Jul 12 2004, 02:23 AM
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I’ve always pictured linking to be more along the lines of a single Person controls the weaves and the rest lend them their strength.

When a circle is formed the lead channler draws power from the rest and uses that to cast weaves.


I used these simple rules to run links.
The 1st person always contributes their level + the total number of people in link.
Each additional person contributes ½ there level rounded up

A 2 person link all 1st level reacts as though cast by a channler of 4th level
A 6 person link all 1st level reacts as though cast by a channler of 12th level
A 13 person link all 1st level reacts as though cast by a channler of 25th level


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Zinuk
Posted: Jul 12 2004, 12:35 PM
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I've been looking on the net for WoT RPGs and here is what I found. I haven't had time to look at all of them closely, but maybe they have interesting game mechanic ideas (like the system that Shaun mentioned) that can be incorporated in d20.

Home-made system: html
LuciusT's GURPS rules: html
Another GURPS WoT RPG: html
Still another GURPS WoT RPG: html
CORPS WoT RPG: html
Fuzion WoT RPG: zipped pdf
Earthdawn WoT RPG: html

I'm still looking for Compton's linking rules. If anyone has them, I would really like to see them.
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shaun
Posted: Jul 12 2004, 03:40 PM
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One thing that I like about the system that I found is that every aditional channeler will make the circle stronger by an amount determined by their individual strength. One point is that I think that the points cost per power level rises too quickely. A full circle isn't quite as strong as it should be, but the points system seems to work fairly well appart from that.

One other interesting point about channeling that I found is this from the New Spring novel page 48
QUOTE
Holding two weaves at once was more than twice as taxing as one, three more than twice as wearing as two. Beond that, difficult no longer sufficed as a description, though it could be done.

This is more how channeling should do what subdual dammage seems to represent to the character though the last sentance seems to posibly be sujesting that it is more skill-wise harder as well as more wearing though perhaps not. Obviously the "Multiweave" as a feat needs to be scraped though I am not quite sure how to replace it. (Don't get too distracted away from linking by this biggrin.gif )
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