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> "Harden Air" question, maybe I've already figured it out
strycher
Posted: May 1 2004, 03:41 AM
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Please help my friends and I.
In our latest session, our resident Wielder of the One Power (an Aiel Initiate) was trying to weave Harden Air against a Mountain Lion.
Our party is relatively new. A mix of 1st and 2nd level PCs. The Initiate is still 1st level.

So, without Overchanneling, the Initiate is limited to casting 1st level weaves.

Now, the player wanted to hardern the air around the cat and cause it to suffocate. While it looked like the weave needed to be 3rd level to hold a medium creature, our player argued that they didn't care to "hold" the entire creature. They only wanted to harden the air around its head. A 1st level weave has a radius of 3-ft. This should be plenty large enough to contain the entire head.

Our DM didn't want to allow this. By reading the "spirit" of the chart, it looked like medium creatures simply weren't held until 3rd level spells.
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Now, as I was reading the book to create this post, I think I might have the answer, but I would still like confirmation.

Does Harden Air simply not affect Creatures (of any size) until small creatures at 2nd level? And larger Creatures as indicated with higher level weaves?
Weaves of 0 level and 1st level only affect OBJECTS?

Thanks for the confirmation. While we are very much enjoying role playing in RJs WOT, the mechanics of Weaving the One Power is a little confusing for our group.
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 1 2004, 04:00 AM
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Your GM was right.

Harden Air needs to be a sufficiently hight level to hold a Medium sized creature to hold the mountain cat. The mountain cat would then make a reflex save to try to keep its head free, to avoid suffication.

If you start saying things like your companion said, then what is to keep you from saying, "I'm just making it big enough to stop the holes in his nose and his mouth... or I'm just going to block right above his epiglotis." Come on, you weinner around a lot of stuff. The GM has to be a rules lawyer sometimes to keep things from getting ridiculous.

If you GM is looking for a "reason" (he doesn't need one) then he can say, "If you weave it that small, then the mountain cat can move his head out of the way as he feels the air solidifying." Or some crack like that.


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Mantyluoto
Posted: May 1 2004, 09:02 AM
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just to add a bit more info

"scrambles for his books before opening his mouth"

like you said a harden air needs to be 3rd lvl to hold a medium size creature but if you initiate has all of the affinities (in this case just air) then the lvl needed becomes 2nd, or if the initiate has none of the affinities it become 4th lvl.

strycher

any other questions feel free to ask (you may not get a sensible answer biggrin.gif ). we're generally a nice group of lads n lasses.

Manty


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 2 2004, 11:08 PM
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Yeah, I hope that I didn't come across as a butthead or anything. I just deal with that kind of stuff from my players and have become kind of a hardliner about messing around a lot with Harden Air... Players can think of some creative uses for HA. Come on, you all know what I mean.

Such questions are always welcome, and you've come to the right place for all of your WoT RPG questions.


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LuciusT
Posted: May 3 2004, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (Sharn Penndroen @ May 1 2004, 04:00 AM)
Your GM was right.

I repectfully disagree.

I would rule that the lower level weave would be sufficent to encase the head of the mountain lion, suffocating it. Of course, since the entire mountain lion was not held, the creature would still be able to move and act freely until it sufficated. It would, of course be further enraged by the fact that it was sufficating and would thrash around wildly trying to kill everything nearby in it's panic and distress.

It would also take Con x2 rounds (or 30 rounds for an average Con 15 Mountain Cat, per p. 243) before the cat needed to start making Fort saves for suffication... which it would likely be able to make for several more rounds before actually succuming.

So, while I think encasing the critters head in Air is a perfectly acceptable use of a 1st level weave, it's not actually a very effective use of the weave, since kitty still has ample time to kill everyone before it sufficates. Of course, as a side effect, kitty is denied his bite attack which is helpful, but the claw attack are still sufficently deadly.
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Entropic_existence
Posted: May 3 2004, 04:42 PM
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Right, it isn't verye ffective LuciusT, because it takes a damn long time to suffocate something. My players and I had already discussed this issue and the players knew all on their own how incredibly uneffective it is. I do have one question though, by your interpretation harden air cast on the head of the mountain lion blocks it's breathing but doesn't immobilize the head? I was going to say that it should immobilize too (thus not being allowed by weave level according to the RPG) But I can think of many instances in the books where people get limbs pinned but still get knocked about and moved. I agree with Lucius on the interpretation but then what happens if say someoen wanted to target say a hand? If you did it to the end of a hand this effectively immobilizes a creature as well. They could still attack with their other hand, etc but they are tethered to one awkward spot.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 3 2004, 05:32 PM
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YOU SEE! It is this kind of heem hawing that you get when you allow such things, Lucius. Your players start doing all kinds of monkeying.

PLAYER: "I harden air inside of his bowels and tie it off. He'll be so constipated and then die before the weave wears off. It would like some kind of weird disease because I'll be long gone."

GM: "No."

PLAYER: "Since temperature is a measure of the kinetic energy in the air, and since the air is hardened and not moving at all, shouldn't it be like absolute zero around this person and they should be taking wicked cold damage. That would kill them before suffocating."

GM: "No."

It might make sense, but I hate getting head aches over this kind of stuff. That's why I just say, "No. You can't do that." And I know that you agree, sometimes as GM you just have to be the kill-joy and say, "no."

That's why I say, that the GM in this case did what he felt was right and made a proper judgement.


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Kathax Mosail Rishaem
Posted: May 3 2004, 05:37 PM
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i have encountered the same type of questions, both as player and as gm, and i think i have come up with a suitable compromise... if the harden air weave is too small to hold the creature, i have ruled that the weave can still hold the target at the point of the harden air (according to the book, the hardened air is immobile, and thus the affected portion of the creature can't move), but the target gets a +3 circumstance bonus on it's reflex save for every level below the required level to hold something of it's size. so if you're trying to immobilize a large creature with a level one harden air it gets a +9 bonus. hard to succeed, but still possible.


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 3 2004, 05:42 PM
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Well according to the RPG rules, you don't get a REF save to avoid the Harden Air. Your save only keeps you from being sufficated (as to avoid instant death). That's one reason why I'm really careful about getting creative with this weave. No save. Two words players hate to hear.

I guess I could cure myself of this by giving HA a save... but I have yet to do that.


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Dortamur
Posted: May 4 2004, 05:13 AM
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Eh? The description says a successful Reflex allows them to dodge free of the area, and this is how we've always played it. For the size-factor, I do as Kathax suggested and alter the Reflex save depending on Size of target vs Area of weave. Another issue is the shape of it (where a flattened out area could be used to trap the legs of a larger group, for example). Most of the time I've got by with creative numbers for the Reflex save. I also rule the "shape" can't be concave at all.

Still, a human, trying to reflex out of a 20-ft radius area doesn't have much chance of reflexing out of the way, no matter how well they roll. That's where GM judgement comes into it.

I've also been toying with rules where a HA is used against someone involved in melee with an ally - depending on the HA size, the ally has a chance of being caught as well. Trying to discourage the "harden entire enemy front line" type tactic. tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Dortamur on May 4 2004, 05:14 AM
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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 4 2004, 10:40 PM
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Addendum: That part about the Reflex save only getting the head free is for confinded areas only. Sorry for the confusion.

I was more concerned with saying something silly than serious... Call it temporary stupidity... My wife says it's quite permanent... But that's another topic.


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LuciusT
Posted: May 5 2004, 01:49 AM
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QUOTE (Entropic_existence @ May 3 2004, 04:42 PM)
I do have one question though, by your interpretation harden air cast on the head of the mountain lion blocks it's breathing but doesn't immobilize the head?


Correct. I can think of no reason that the creatures head would be held immobile.

QUOTE
I agree with Lucius on the interpretation but then what happens if say someoen wanted to target say a hand? If you did it to the end of a hand this effectively immobilizes a creature as well.


Why? Just like the mountain lion's head in the previous example, I can think of no reason a person wouldn'y be free to move his arm and body. His hand is wrapped in "solid" Air. He couldn't open and close his hand... couldn't drop whatever he was holding or pick something else up for instance... but but nothing is holding his hand in a fixed location.
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LuciusT
Posted: May 5 2004, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE (Sharn Penndroen @ May 3 2004, 05:32 PM)
PLAYER: "I harden air inside of his bowels and tie it off. He'll be so constipated and then die before the weave wears off. It would like some kind of weird disease because I'll be long gone."

Lucius: The One Power requires line of sight. If you want to Harden Air inside his bowels, you must first see inside his bowels... at which point it becomes a rather pointless use of a weave slot, don't you think? smile.gif


QUOTE
PLAYER:  "Since temperature is a measure of the kinetic energy in the air, and since the air is hardened and not moving at all, shouldn't it be like absolute zero around this person and they should be taking wicked cold damage.  That would kill them before suffocating."


Lucius: blink.gif Save me from physicists. The air is not "not moving at all." The air has simply changed. The temperature of the air is lower (per examples from the books) but not sufficently to cause damage.

Ultimately, I thank the gods that I don't have to deal with players like this and I'm really sorry that you do, Sharn.
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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 5 2004, 02:14 AM
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I have just read in CoT that someone killed Anaya and her warder by passing solid folws of air thriugh their brains.

What if someone casts harden air into someones lungs, or into thier carotid artery, I know from experiance that it takes about six seconds to put some one to sleep that way. Not by channeling I mean but, if you compromise the blood flow there, even momentarily it don't take long.



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J


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darkriders_shadow_hunter
Posted: May 5 2004, 02:22 AM
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i haven't played a weaver before but in our group when you use harden air it stays put and can't be moved therefore if you get caught, any portion of your body then you are held. We had a wilder try to encase heads in a harden air, our gm made the wilder make a touch attack, otherwise he couldn't get the head stuck.

One final note, In a game GM IS LAW, when they say it works this way or that then it does
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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 5 2004, 02:53 AM
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Soounds like you got an ok GM. It is true that one should not argue with one's GM during a game session. However, if something is not resonable or it does not make since then one should be free to discuss that. The reason for the GM is law etiquette is not to make the GM an all powerful all knowing dunder head, it is to make sure that a gaming session does not devolve into an argument. The GM should remember in the execution of his powers, that his job is to make sure his players have a good time.

I also think that in some instances a GM may get crried away and need to be called down. Example

Player 1 : I aim my gun at the soldiers head and ask him where the secret hide out is.

GM: He looks back at you and says " Go to he!!".

Player 1: I pull the trigger and blow his brains out.

Player 2:(who is playing a hill giant) I ripp off the dead guys leg and munch on it.

Player 1: I calmly ask the other prisoner the same question.

GN: He spits in your face.

Obviusly for some reason the GM is a out there with this assertion. Your average grunt is gonna mess himself. He may not tell anything but he certainly wouldn't have that kind of vinaeger in him.

Player 1: No he doesn't, he messes himself.

GM: Ok that was a little over the top.

Just my take on the way the game is played.


Peace
J

This post has been edited by Primal Paladin22 on May 5 2004, 02:53 AM


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Sharn Penndroen
Posted: May 5 2004, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (LuciusT @ May 5 2004, 01:55 AM)
Ultimately, I thank the gods that I don't have to deal with players like this and I'm really sorry that you do, Sharn.

smile.gif It keeps me on my toes.


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darkriders_shadow_hunter
Posted: May 5 2004, 06:20 PM
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our gm only pulls the I AM THE LAW thing is when ONE person will not drop the idea, like when the gm would make him make a spot check even if he failed he would argue with the gm that it was to noticable to be missed and slow down the game for a half an hour. We finally kicked the kid, but i guess i still take the side of gm's when people try argueing for hours
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Primal Paladin22
Posted: May 5 2004, 10:59 PM
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No doubt bro. During a game is no time to argue with a GM, but if he's to pig headed you might have to take him out behind the wood shed afterwards.


Tap, nap or snap baby!!


Peace
J


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strycher
Posted: May 6 2004, 10:46 PM
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Wow, thanks for the response guys.

I'm torn between the two "alternative" ways of using the lower level weave to capture a creature.

The one idea was to give modifiers for the DC based on the size difference of the target and the number of weave levels from the level needed to completely hold the target.
So, 1st level weave trying to hold a medium size cat (3rd level weave) has +6 penalty to the weaver/bonus to target. (+3 for each level difference)

The other suggestion was to have the weaver use a Touch Attack to encase the head. This would only be necessary if the level of the weave was small enough to not "hold the entire creature". If the weave was able to encase the entire creature, than only the Reflex saving throw is needed.

If successful, the target has its head encased in air. You could then use the "twice Con" for suffucation rules until the target needs to check.
--- since it was unexpected, maybe not Twice Con? The cat wasn't ready.
It hadn't taken a "deep breath" before hand. So maybe only rounds
equal to Con, before start checking? OK, that's another discussion...


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