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Author Topic: Wheel of Time homebrew
odin181
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posted September 19, 2002 12:35 PM      Profile for odin181   Email odin181    Edit/Delete Post
Dose this sound weird. I like wheel of time alot, I would just rather not stick w/ the exact setting of the game. So I just made up a new setting tweaked a few rules and was done. I've sort of just replaced the D&D players hand book with the WoT book. I just made up new lost ability feats to better suit my setting, and added Elves and Dwarves also to reflect the setting. It's sort of Wheel of Time & Dragons [Smile]

What do you think. IMHO I think WoT makes a much better set of rules then core D&D dose. any input ?

[ September 19, 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: odin181 ]

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prick your finger it is done,
the moon has now eclipsed the sun,
the angel has spread it's wings,
the time has come for better things,

From: kentucky | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted September 19, 2002 12:50 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Don't get me wrong, I love the WoT. But I think you may have problems (which have been beaten to death on many threads on this board) with channelers being so overpowered. I am one of those who advocate powerful channelers (no balance), the closer to the novels the better. But..... the one reason I think that works in WoT is the high social and roleplaying counters the channelers have to face. I mean men get screwed, women better be Aiel (and hide in the Waste), Athen Mi'er (and hide on the ship), the Kin (and hide in a hole in the ground) or Aes Sedai and have your life picked out for you, while swearing your gonna stay a good little girl.
Female wilders just better stay low or get snatched up/beat down by the Aes Sedai.

With a game world that doesn't have those counters I think that the channelers would be too powerful.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
odin181
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posted September 19, 2002 01:14 PM      Profile for odin181   Email odin181    Edit/Delete Post
I don't think the channalers would over power things that much. I mean no more than in D&D how most classes can cast spells of one type or another. And if it becomes a big deal I can always just change how maddness works a bit. Don't forget this is not in the WoT setting so I'll be free to ajust things as nessisary.

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prick your finger it is done,
the moon has now eclipsed the sun,
the angel has spread it's wings,
the time has come for better things,

From: kentucky | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted September 19, 2002 01:23 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I think that you would need some kind of check for the channelers. I have done some theoretical role-playing to see just how powerful a channeler can be. I put a 6th level wilder with some good weaves against 15 3rd - 5th level brigands (warriors and Armsmen). Some had lances on horseback, some had horsebows and they ambushed him out in the forest (so no long range). He slaughtered them to the last in about 10 to 15 rounds. AoA and Harden Air would stop them while he tossed off fireballs and riven earth. A Harden air weave placed in front of a bunch of charging horsemen is crippling. He didn't even have to overchannel all that much and I wasn't even allowing homebrewed feats or weaves, just stuff out of the book.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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The Green Man
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posted September 19, 2002 02:59 PM      Profile for The Green Man      Edit/Delete Post
A couple of comments -

Channelers definitely risk being over powerful. A channeler does NOT have roughly the same power as a D&D caster of equivalent level. Harden air can be used to basically kill any non-channeler regardless of level. That's just one example... channelers are very, very powerful without some balancing mechanism (as the social constraints in the novels are).

With that said - Xythlord, I think that your brigands must not have been too smart. They should have been able to overbear the channeler fairly easily. Once immobilized, it shouldn't have been terribly difficult to kill him.

-The Green Man

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Xythlord
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posted September 19, 2002 03:33 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Actually the Brigands had a pretty good setup, along a road, L shaped ambush with a bunch of lancers to charge in and finish coming from around the bend and down the road.

But I tried to play that scenerio for real. The brigands had a few come and stop the "ordinary" traveler without even a sword. He dove for cover and let loose an enourmous (overchanneled) Riven earth, which also killed or knocked down a lot of them (that 50 ft. radius). He was then hit by an arrow, even with 50% cover, He made his Concentration check (for the damage) and overchanneled a Fireball back at the archers. Again we have a 50 ft. radius crisping a bunch more. The next round two more charge him so he hardens air in to stop everthing coming from that entire direction and hides behind a tree to stay away from the archers. The lancers come around the bend at full charge, the channeler again cast Harden Air and holds the other one. no one knows where the "walls" are cuz their invisible so he just starts channeling fireballs after that.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted September 19, 2002 04:22 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Green Man:
A couple of comments -

Channelers definitely risk being over powerful. A channeler does NOT have roughly the same power as a D&D caster of equivalent level. Harden air can be used to basically kill any non-channeler regardless of level. That's just one example... channelers are very, very powerful without some balancing mechanism (as the social constraints in the novels are).

While that's true, it's a serious oversimplification. Chanellers always have more weaves available than wizards or clerics have spells because of overchanneling and double stat bonuses. Which means that for low-level characters, an initiate/wizard duel would heavily favor the initiate. She's simply got more avialable firepower.

But once you get to mid levels (and this is even more true at high levels), the wizard has access to spells that give him a big advantage and which the the initiate can't counter -- and tens of thousands of gp worth of magic equipment. In the short run, the wizard wins because he's got better surprise ability and better defensive spells; in the long run the wizard actually lasts longer if he's prepared some scrolls and/or wands.

Which is to say that yes, Elminster can take out Rand, and wouldn't have too much trouble [Smile]

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Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

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Grayswandir_Blade
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posted September 19, 2002 04:53 PM      Profile for Grayswandir_Blade   Email Grayswandir_Blade    Edit/Delete Post
Nah, Rand just Balefires and pop! [Cthulhu]

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odin181
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posted September 19, 2002 06:07 PM      Profile for odin181   Email odin181    Edit/Delete Post
but channelers would be the wizards in my setting just like in wheel of time. so I don't have to worrie about balancing them against d&d characters because i'm just using the classes from WoT. As for a social reason for them to limit their power I was thinking an anti-magic/one power religeous group might work, but thats more then a bit over done so i'll probably think of something else. Something I was considering was having all channelers run the risk of maddness not just males. because like I said it is a diffrant setting, so don't have to follow the tainted mail half thing. But since I don't want all spell casters, hurtaling to eminit doom I could very easaly come up with a balancing factor that would make a Elminster wanna-ne think twice before he/she started toasting people for the fun of it.

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prick your finger it is done,
the moon has now eclipsed the sun,
the angel has spread it's wings,
the time has come for better things,

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Stiletto
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posted September 19, 2002 06:48 PM      Profile for Stiletto   Email Stiletto    Edit/Delete Post
i'm sorry, but i was reading, and a 50ft fireball blows my mind. if anyone's read part of the dragonlance books, they might know when zifnab(or is it fizban), supposedly an awesome magik man, did one about 20ft, and that blew my mind! i'm always trying to think of Ryu with a 20ft fireball... [Red Mana]

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"...There's magic afoot?"
-Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

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odin181
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posted September 25, 2002 06:04 AM      Profile for odin181   Email odin181    Edit/Delete Post
Here's a more solid description of what I'm doing. The game takes place in the same world, I'm using the map and backgrounds from the WoT book. So in a lot of ways it's still WoT with the same story line and everything.

What I've Changed

I've altered the story of the world a bit to better suit my idea. Both men and women can chanel with out going mad, and instead of Ogear I have a Elves and Dwarves, Similare but not identical to the ones in D&D.

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prick your finger it is done,
the moon has now eclipsed the sun,
the angel has spread it's wings,
the time has come for better things,

From: kentucky | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moridin00
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posted September 26, 2002 12:31 AM      Profile for Moridin00      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord:
But I tried to play that scenerio for real. He let loose an enourmous (overchanneled) Riven earth, which also killed or knocked down a lot of them (that 50 ft. radius). He was then hit by an arrow, even with 50% cover, He made his Concentration check (for the damage) and overchanneled a Fireball back at the archers. The next round two more charge him so he hardens air in to stop everthing coming from that entire direction and hides behind a tree to stay away from the archers. The lancers come around the bend at full charge, the channeler again cast Harden Air and holds the other one. no one knows where the "walls" are cuz their invisible so he just starts channeling fireballs after that.

Don't you think that they would have all just run off after the first Riven Earth? [Smile]

Stiletto, I saw this programme on tv the other night about natural disasters... seeing the devastation earthquakes can cause gave me some perpective on the earthquake weave, especially as it can affect miles of ground! [Smile]

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Xythlord
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posted September 26, 2002 07:13 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Guilty, they would have run like the devil was after them (at least I would have in their place). But I wanted to see how it would have turned out. Right now I have in my home game, the players are in PotD and although they have deviated from the module somewhat, I hope to see what my male channeler can do at Dumai's Well soon.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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wafwot
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posted October 05, 2002 02:21 PM      Profile for wafwot   Email wafwot    Edit/Delete Post
Heh. I just had this thought.

I was trying to picture a channeller causing these massive earthquakes. Then it popped into my mind that an earthquake in California can cause tsunami's over in China.

Wouldn't that suck to be across the ocean with all these channellers causing earthquakes?

Ha.

Sorry. Otherwise, I agree. Channellers in the WoT are much, much much more powerful than any kind of D&D spellcaster. The idea alone that they can /overchannel/ makes them more powerful, besides the fact that, as was mentioned, something as "simple" as Harden Air can kill a very powerful individual.

Dungeons and Dragons is a lit candle. Wheel of Time is a turbine engine. It definitely doesn't stand a chance.

Peace,

Anthony

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Mao
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posted October 08, 2002 10:33 PM      Profile for Mao      Edit/Delete Post
<LONG!>

Hey guys.

I think you folks are suffering from a little confusion here.

Yes, balefire is deadly. But you need to hit with a ranged touch, AND the opponent needs to fail at a reflex save. If they succeed they take nothing.

Yes, Riven earth is great, but there's a save for half damage.

Yes, harden air is great, but there is a reflex save to avoid it completely.

Look at wizards- hold monster is far superior to harden air (will saves rate to be much harder for your usual joe than reflex), wall of force is far superior to any wall type thing, otto's irresistable dance takes someone out with a touch attack, disintegrate takes someone out (dead) or deals 6d6 damage with a ranged touch (if they succeed at a fort save). Meteor swarm does 24d6 damage no save, plus area damage. Compare that to balefire, huh? I'll take meteor swarm every single time.

And let us just skip over clerics and druids, for obvious, obvious reasons. Healing, shapeshifting combined with spells far superior to any channeling effects.

Yes because of the lack of magic items, channellers are somewhat more powerful than average classes in WoT, but they are far less powerful than they were comparitively in the books. It takes a full round action or so to embrace the source. During that round, an armsman of equivalent level to a channeller can obliterate the poor channeller. Like a chump.

Try running a 15th level armsman versus a 15th level initiate at close range (start them around 60 feet away). Give the Armsman light armor. He charges the first round while the channeller embraces the source, power attacking for 10 or so, and does 1d8+15-20 depending on weapon spec/power wrought blades/etc. If he wins initiative, he takes a full attack action next round and hits all 3 of his attacks because of the channeller's pathetic defense bonus. Doing 1d8+10 (+2 weapon spec, +3 power wrought blade, +4-5 for strength, notwithstanding the chance for him to be using a greatsword - 2d6+12 or so). He doesn't power attack or expertise, because he's feeling charitable. H does 3d8+30, plus his original 1d8+20, for 4d8+50 damage - or average of 70 points, give or take.

Let us pretend the initiate has a 16 con - charitable. He's got 45+15d4 hp, 90 giving a generous average. He's now got 20 hp left.

He multiweaves three blasts of balefire, since he has a +2 angreal, and tries to blast the Armsman. He's got a +7 + his dex of 14, or +9 to hit with ranged attacks, and the Armsman has a defense of around 19 or 20 (given mediocre dex). He hits on possibly two blasts, if he gets lucky.

The armsman has a reflex save of around +10 or so, more if he's taken lightning reflexes (and he has a crapload of feats - around 10). The DC rates to be around 23. So there's roughly a 40% chance he'll survive and kill the wilder next round.

This is one on one. Roughly a 40% chance that the armsman kills him in two rounds.

No way that'd happen in the books [Smile]

-Mao

From: Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mao
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posted October 08, 2002 10:37 PM      Profile for Mao      Edit/Delete Post
Update on the stats there - 40% twice, so 40% of 40%...closer to 18% or so. still.

18% chance of an Armsman soloing an initiate of equivalent level (again pretending the initiate HAS balefire and multiweave x2, and that the armsman doesn't hit a critical).

Figure the armsman has a 17-20 threat range for improved crit, etc.

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Grey Danvar
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posted October 08, 2002 11:54 PM      Profile for Grey Danvar      Edit/Delete Post
That's all well and good, Mao, but the Initiate need simply use Arms of Air (Sustained Force)to move the Armsman or hold him. There is no saving throw or attack roll needed for Sustained Force. Multiweave Balefire, and viola. Or, alternatively, move the Armsman vertically at the rate of 20ft / round and drop him [Smile]

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Moridin00
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posted October 09, 2002 01:22 AM      Profile for Moridin00      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have the book on me, but I have this suspicion that balefire doesn't need a ranged touch attack. Will check later.

Mao, your comment of 'Try running a 15th level armsman versus a 15th level initiate at close range' betrays your flawed argument here. You are giving the armsman a range advantage. Its obvious the channeler is disadvantaged without his primary benefit (i.e. channeling). To be fair, start them out of visual range of each other or let the channeler embrace. If you don't do this, you're not comparing the power of two classes, you're comparing the melee capabilities of them, which is a pointless comparison to make. In a fair duel, both characters should have full access to their speciality powers. They are diverse characters with different strengths. If you want to compare melee prowess, you should also then check magic prowess between the two as well!

When my dm and I tested characters after we'd created them, he always used to cream my spellcasting characters with his fighters. He always managed to get swarms of daggers per round flying at my alarmed wizard, driven by colossal strength ratings. Man that used to p1ss me off. [Big Grin]

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Grey Danvar
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posted October 09, 2002 01:55 AM      Profile for Grey Danvar      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Moridin00:
I don't have the book on me, but I have this suspicion that balefire doesn't need a ranged touch attack. Will check later.


Yep, it does require a ranged touch attack, since it's a "Beam" effect. [Smile]
quote:

Mao, your comment of 'Try running a 15th level armsman versus a 15th level initiate at close range' betrays your flawed argument here. You are giving the armsman a range advantage.


Nah, with the Arms of Air weave, it won't matter too much on the range. [Smile]

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Jkol the Butcher
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posted October 09, 2002 05:31 AM      Profile for Jkol the Butcher   Email Jkol the Butcher    Edit/Delete Post
Why does balefire have both a ranged touch and a reflex save? This seems dumb to me: I mean if you succed at a ranged touch attack then haven't you already hit them - you don't get a reflex save to avoid an arrow - balefire must be travelling at least as fast as an arrow shouldn't it.

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Mao
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posted October 09, 2002 04:11 PM      Profile for Mao      Edit/Delete Post
Cos ranged touch = obliteration is a little rough.

As to Arms of Air, I will bet bottom dollar if there is errata, it'll claim it has a reflex save if you're trying to either a) take an object from a creature or b) move a creature.

This spell is identical to telekinesis in effect, otherwise.

In my game, you can damned well bet there'll be a saving throw. They can't see the weave, but they feel it around them and dodge out of the way. Pow.

You can generally bet that if one single spell overpowers a class, it is an error or will be toned down - if it's everything, maybe not so much. Harden air for example has a reflex save [Smile]

-Mao

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Harkael
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posted October 10, 2002 12:24 PM      Profile for Harkael   Email Harkael    Edit/Delete Post
Things have gotten just a wee bit off topic, however i would say that even though channelers arent as powerful as the book (Rand frying dozens of veteran aiel as an afterthought) they are still too powerful without the usual limitations.
Oh, and by the way, there's a difference between Rand vs Elminster,and Rand with Calandor vs Elminster. (unfortunately Elminster would probably have the upper hand anyway)

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but i rolled....an......18..."

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Grey Danvar
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posted October 10, 2002 03:06 PM      Profile for Grey Danvar      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mao:

As to Arms of Air, I will bet bottom dollar if there is errata, it'll claim it has a reflex save if you're trying to either a) take an object from a creature or b) move a creature.

In my game, you can damned well bet there'll be a saving throw. They can't see the weave, but they feel it around them and dodge out of the way. Pow.

There is currently no errata, and it's doubtful there will ever be any. That given, what you suggest is a house rule that you use in your game -- therefore, it has no place in a discussion that compares WoT core classes. It's not that I disagree with your assesment of AoA, but for discussions such as these, one needs to stick to the rules.

Aside from AoA there's dozens of other methods a 15th level Initiate could use to easily overcome a 15th level Arsman. A few examples:

1) The Initiate can fly to escape melee range, Create Fire (Channeled at level 6), and then drop a Master Ward over the Armsman, and area of effect of the Create Fire.

2) Fly, Immolate until well done. Immolate, being a will save, is particularly deadly to the hapless Armsman. Alternatievly, Ward against People (around the channeler) and Immolate.

3) Master Ward. Just Master Ward. It says in the description that the one trapped will eventually run out of air. Weave, and hold the weave, eventually the Armsman suffocates.

3) Fly (or Ward Against People) and Compulsion. Another will save that will eventually fail, and the ward works even if the target is hostile.

I think it's safe to assume that unless the Armsman has the most extreme of circumstances in her favor, this is a battle she will lose 100% of the time. [Smile]

-Grey

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"Why Me?" :)

From: Grand Junction, CO, US | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Milosh
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posted October 10, 2002 03:41 PM      Profile for Milosh   Email Milosh    Edit/Delete Post
Elminster is highly over rated, i mean lvl 20 wiz lvl 5 fighter? gets stuck in hell cant use magic but still gets out, the only thing i can think of why hes so strong is his never ending smoking pipe of elminsters homegrown!

I would think that a forsaken has got the levels to match him too, so maybe a forsaken would stop elminster! [Beholder]

Sorry Must have had some homegrown of my own [ROFL]

From: CDA | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted October 10, 2002 03:52 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Harkael:
Oh, and by the way, there's a difference between Rand vs Elminster,and Rand with Calandor vs Elminster. (unfortunately Elminster would probably have the upper hand anyway)

Ha! Forget them both. Go Raistlin! Muahahahaha!

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I have gone out to look for myself. If I should happen to return before I get back, please tell myself to wait.

From: The middle of nowhere....South Dakota | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged


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