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Author Topic: DR armor and vitality+wound points in WoT
skyman
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posted April 09, 2003 10:16 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
Here's my previous posts, slightly edited:

The armor system in WoT is one of the only major flaws I see in the game system. There are plenty of characters who might wear chainmail and still are just as capable of dodging out of the way. There are armsmen who are good at avoiding hits even without armor. The system in the Star Wars game, where armor has a damage reduction value, is one solution. However this is only balanced if the system of vitality (avoiding damage) and wound (physical toughness) points is used. Damage reduction only reduces damage when dealt to wounds (often a small portion of the total hp).

I really want to change the armor system without changing game balance, so I was trying to come up with a way of having VP/WP without increasing the overall "health". However, it's difficult to do this without major problems. For example, I was thinking that all hit points gained are wound points up to the characters constitution score, and after that they are vitality. But this penalizes high con characters in some ways as vitality is slightly better (heals faster, etc.)

Here's one possibility off the top of my head: All hit points gained up to 10 + CON modifier go to wounds, and everything after that goes to vitality. This way a character's high con bonus makes up for the higher amount of wound points that need to be gained before he/she can switch to vitality. Comments?

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"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted April 10, 2003 07:05 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
We're using a modified vp/wp and dr system in our WOT game. I don't know all the specifics, but here's an overview:

vitality/hit points
- full hit die from 1st level
- straight average hit die for every level
thereafter (so totals aren't insanely high)
- con added as normal

wound points
- con score

armor
- has a slight defense bonus (1 or 2)
- gives damage reduction (leather 1-plate 7)
- Damage Reduction only kicks in when damage
goes directly to wounds (vp gone, or certain
weaves affecting wounds directly)
- armor compatibility works as normal

It's worked so far in our game. The slight defense bonus and promise of dr allows even the Wanderer to weigh whether or not to wear armor in certain situations.

The addition of wounds affects healing slightly. Wounds only heal 1 per night, and every wound you have deducts a 'plus' from rolls (ie. you have 3 wounds and a balance skill total of +10, if you needed to balance you could only roll at +7 until you get healed) Vitality heals as normal, as does subdual. The Heal weave can heal vitality as listed, converting it to subdual. Or, it can be used at weave level d2 + 1/2 channeler levels to heal wounds directly.

*shrug* Just how our GM chose to do it. [Smile]

[ April 10, 2003, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Freya ]

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felicia
AKA Freya Culadin

From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 10, 2003 09:13 AM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I like that system overall, but my one problem is with wound points being gained up to the characters con. As wound points aren't as good as vitality, this penalizes high con characters. I like some other parts of the system though, like -1 to rolls for each wound.

[ April 10, 2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: skyman ]

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Lord Schpungus
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posted April 10, 2003 09:45 AM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see how it penalizes high Con characters. You get all your vitality points, basically the same as hp, and then you have more wound points than other characters. It's not a trade-off between vp and wp. The more wound points you have the harder it is to kill you. The way I read it you start off with your Con score in wound points and then gain vitality points like normal 3rd Ed. hit points. I don't see the penalty in that. Please enlighten me.
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Sharn_Penndroen
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posted April 10, 2003 12:34 PM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
I also fail to see the disadvantage in the system that Freya discribes. Look at these two example of level 1 armsmen.

Level 1 Armsman Con 17
Vitality points=10(from class)+3(from Con)= 13
Wound points=17(constitution score)
This means it will take 30 points of total damage to kill this level 1 armsman.

Level 1 Armsman Con 13
Vitality points=10(from class)+1(from Con)= 11
Wound points=13(constitution score)
This means it will take 24 points of total damage to kill this level 1 armsman.

Where is the disadvantage in having the higher Constitution? You have more Vitality points and more Wound points. I'll take the Con 17 anyday.

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A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

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skyman
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posted April 10, 2003 03:43 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I believe I misread the post. I thought it said there are the same number of total hit points, with an amount equal to con going to wounds BEFORE any goes to vitality. This would penalize high con characters because they would gain more wound points than others before they could gain vitality, and wounds aren't as good (heal slower, give penalty to actions from damage).
However, simply adding wound points equal to con I don't like either, as this gives low-level characters a lot more hp total, somewhat unbalancing the game.
This is why I like a system in which 10+con mod of a characters hp go to wounds, and the rest go to vp, as it doesn't penalize high con or unbalance the game.

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"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Xythlord
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posted April 10, 2003 04:32 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Your right, it would give 1st level players a lot more hp than in D&D, but that can be balanced out fairly easily.

First remember that unlike D&D, WoT has no mechanism for bringing a character back who has died. Dead is Dead (and I much prefer this!)

Second, instead of penalizing the WP by lowering it to the Con + Modifier, and then letting them level up with VP, you can just let the character roll his 1st level VP instead of maxing it out. This way, the WP score will be higher, and as that score is much harder to raise than VP, will tell out over time and the VP will raise with level.

--------------------
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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JosephKell
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posted April 10, 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Wound Points just act as your negative HP, but when there is critical, instead of doubling or tripling damage you get to deal direct wound damage, which also cheapens the value of an axe (why go for a bigger crit multiplier when it doesn't matter?)

Unless you half the multiplier (so for x3 you roll a second die and use half that damage, rounding up, for the extra wounds damage)

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skyman
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posted April 10, 2003 05:32 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
First remember that unlike D&D, WoT has no mechanism for bringing a character back who has died. Dead is Dead (and I much prefer this!)

I agree! I hate ressurection. It brings on the mindset "I'll charge in, because it doesn't matter if I die!"

quote:
Second, instead of penalizing the WP by lowering it to the Con + Modifier, and then letting them level up with VP, you can just let the character roll his 1st level VP instead of maxing it out.
Thanks Xythlord, I like this idea. I didn't think of the obvious... It certainly could work.

quote:
...instead of doubling or tripling damage you get to deal direct wound damage, which also cheapens the value of an axe (why go for a bigger crit multiplier when it doesn't matter?)
Unless you half the multiplier (so for x3 you roll a second die and use half that damage, rounding up, for the extra wounds damage)

This is a conundrum... I have thought about it before. Maybe the str bonus to damage could be doubled on a crit, encouraging stronger characters to use hefty weapons like axes and weaker ones to use swords, etc.

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"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Xythlord
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posted April 10, 2003 06:17 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I always liked the idea of a Crit doing straight damage to the VP and does damage equal to the Crit Multiplier + Strength Modifier to the WP. Sneak attacks can do 1 pt per Sneak attack dice + str modifier, directly to the WP, and weaves do normal damage to VP then the WP as they are powerful enough as they are.

[edited the Sneak attack damage]

[ April 10, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Xythlord ]

--------------------
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Xythlord
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posted April 10, 2003 06:26 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I just had another idea, the idea behind a crit is that your strike hit in a partucularly vulnerable place. The mechanics reflect this and with D&D magic bonus's, this can make a critical strike partucurly deadly.

Now, using a WP/VP system the characters don't have to worry too much about a critical strike because it just doesnt do enough damage. Say a 5th level armsmen with average VP and an 18 Con gets struck by a critical hit with a longsword. He has 50 VP and 18 WP. The longsword does what 16 pts + str modifier max. What if we add the str bonus to the weapon damage before multipliying (like a weapon enhancement bonus in 3E). The damage from a 16 str with the longsword becomes 22, almost halving his VP.

With something bigger, say a Hafted Axe the damage grows to 45. Now he is worrying as one strike halved all his points. Adding both of these toghether allows the same axe to do a max of 45 pts of damage and 6 WP.....now that armsmen is scared.

The question that needs to be asked is, does Armor with a DR reduce these critical hits.

[edited the axe damage.....screwed up the value [Razz] ]

[ April 10, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Xythlord ]

--------------------
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Lord Schpungus
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posted April 10, 2003 07:07 PM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
I thought the strength modifier WAS multplied on crits. That's the way I've always played...
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JosephKell
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posted April 10, 2003 07:35 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
it is.

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-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
-If your character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook...
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-If the God of Destiny asks you what will have next...
...you might be a Munchkin.

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Tzepish
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posted April 10, 2003 08:24 PM      Profile for Tzepish   Email Tzepish    Edit/Delete Post
Hi.

You normally don't see me on the WoT boards, because I don't play it or anything, but I do have some things to say about VP/WP.

First of all, in terms of the characters having more total health, there are two ways to solve this problem. You could add an extra die of damage to everything that has rolled damage, or (and I like this one) you can lower the hit dice of everything by one step (d8 characters become d6, etc.). Beginning characters will still be more powerful than they would be in the HP system, but high level characters will be weaker. Thus, the characters are "pushed closer together", I guess, in terms of power level. And if people can't be ressurected, then maybe it's a good thing that the first few levels are the ones that are powered up - since dying at level 1 or 2 is in many ways worse than dying with a character you have already succeeded in developing.

As for critical hits bypassing DR, my understanding is that a critical hit bypasses one level of defense. So, normally a critical hit will bypass VP and deal damage straight to WP - DR applies. But if someone with 0 VP is struck by a critical hit, then critical hit then bypasses the next level of defense, which would be DR. So, a character with no VP struck by a critical would not benefit from his DR.

I'm not sure if I like this, though, since it lowers the effectiveness of armor. I'd prefer DR always apply.

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Sprain Ogre
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posted April 11, 2003 12:23 AM      Profile for Sprain Ogre   Email Sprain Ogre    Edit/Delete Post
I think how it goes in Star Wars is thus:

WP=Con
VP=hit points like normal (dice and con mod)
(Might have those two mixed up, but I hope the idea gets across)

A normal hit does VP damage. Armor does not help in this case. When you run out of VP, you begin to take WP, in this case, armor does help. If you are hit by a critical it removes all your remaining VP and does damage direct to WP, armor reduces this damage as well. Basically armor helps when ever you are hit by something that would cause VP damage. Evertime you do anything but whimper in pain after you've taken WP damage, you need to make a fort save or pass out, the DC of the save goes up the lower your WP's get (it's kinda like you're at 0 hp for longer). When you reach -1 you're out of things, at -10 you're dead.

I could be wrong, but I don't feal like hunting down my Star Wars Core book right now, and I think this is how it goes. Hope that helps. [Big Grin]

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skyman
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posted April 11, 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you are hit by a critical it removes all your remaining VP and does damage direct to WP
I don't believe criticals remove any VP... they simply deal damage directly to wounds.

quote:
Evertime you do anything but whimper in pain after you've taken WP damage, you need to make a fort save or pass out, the DC of the save goes up the lower your WP's get (it's kinda like you're at 0 hp for longer). When you reach -1 you're out of things, at -10 you're dead.
I don't remember the save (although I haven't looked at the book in a while) but any wound damage does stun you; this makes a -2 penalty on all actions.

I like the ideas people have brought forward so far. With a little more discussion we can definitely make a viable system.

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"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Sophiathegreen
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posted April 13, 2003 05:29 PM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
Than other way is to have armor take than certain amount of damage before damage is pass on to you.
They use this method in Chivalry and Sorcery 2nd editon and up. In C&S 2nd ed than plate cuirass armor
can take 2d6+2 point of damage before you do and they
have rules that allow armor to degrade in combat also.

I than sorry if I mention C&S there was than lots of bad blood between C&S and D&D for some reason I donot
know, they are both great game.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 15, 2003 06:08 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
The problem with this is that it can be very powerful. Even reducing, say, 4 points of damage each time can make a significant difference in the survivability of armor-bearing characters as opposed to quicker ones. And if plate mail only reduces 4 points of damage (a good number for that system) there aren't too many degrees of seperation between the armor types.

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"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Hal
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posted April 15, 2003 08:16 PM      Profile for Hal      Edit/Delete Post
I think that the use of VP/WP is a good one. I don't agree that it unbalances the game at all, especially if remember some of the related rules from SW.

First giving 1st level PCs their Con in WP and HP in VP means that first level PCs are generally more robust. This is a good thing as it increases the survivability of beginning PCs. Also, having on average 18 or so "HPs" isn't that much especially considering that:

a) WP heal more slowly (only 1 per day - no matter what level),

b) WP damage inflict maluses (a PC suffering WP damage is fatigued (-2 to Str and Dex, cannot run), and

c) WP damage provides KO oppotunities (a PC must make a Fort save equal to the WP damage scored in that round or be KO'd).

Also, at later levels the VP/WP system actual makes PCs more vulnerable as a lucky critical can take you down through WP.

Second in a low healing setting VPs can assist in keeping the PCs in the action without loosing the grittier feel. WP take ages to recover (1 per day) but VPs recover much more quickly as they are a measure of energy, luck, karma as well as toughness. In SW, VP recover at a rate of PC's level per hour. Essentially, this makes VP damage just knocks and bruises but WP damage is much more serious. VP/WP makes the PC both more vulnerable and more robust at the same time.

Thirdly, DR for armour isn't unbalanced if it only applies to WP damage. As VP doesn't represent physical damage, armour doesn't stop VP damage. Armour remains important to saving your life but not a required item for fighting

The only difficulting in adopting this system would be to convert armour bonus to DRs. I recommend a rough conversion of one half armour bonus to DRs, with light armours covering DR 1 to 2, medium armours DR 2 to 4 and heavy armours 4 to 5. I think more than DR of 5 (someone mentioned 7 above) is too much. In SW most weapons do 2d6 to 2d8 so DRs range up to an over 5. However, in WoT 1d8 is a decent damage roll, and DR of 5 will be effective.

From: New Zealand | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hal
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posted April 15, 2003 09:22 PM      Profile for Hal      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Freya:
armor
- has a slight defense bonus (1 or 2)
- gives damage reduction (leather 1-plate 7)
- Damage Reduction only kicks in when damage
goes directly to wounds (vp gone, or certain
weaves affecting wounds directly)
- armor compatibility works as normal

I like this approach when combined with the adoption of VP/WP but would change it slightly as follows:

1. Armour grants an AC bonus (protection of vital areas and possibility of deflection) and a DR bonus (absorbing damage).

This can be done many ways but here is a recommendation that is easy and balanced between the different types of armour. Take the current Armour bonus, retaing an Armour bonus of +1 for light, +2 for medium and +3 for heavy and converting the rest into DR.

So Leather Armour grants a +1 Armour bonus and has a DR of 1, Chainmail a +2 Armour bonus and a DR of 3 and Half Plate a +3 Armour bonus and a DR of 4. The max DR is 5.

2. The Armour bonus stacks with the Class bonus to AC. The smaller Armour bonuses and Class bonus being slower than BAB progressions means that they can stack without being too unbalanced.

The Armsman's Armour Capability will need to be reworked. It could be replaced with a bonus feat or changed to something else such as being able to get reduce Max Dex and Check Penalties from armour by 1.

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Xythlord
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posted April 15, 2003 09:45 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I like the way these are working out, how about if Armor Compatability works as is, keeping the uniqueness of the Armsman, allowing the character to stack his Defense with the modified AC bonus the armor provides (+1 light, +2 meduim, and +3 for heavy). Those character without Armor Compatability instead subtract the AC bonus from there Defense instead of adding it. This makes wearing armor, something that has to be weighed.

Do I go no armor and try to avoid the blows, or wear some and hope the armor takes the damage.

--------------------
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Hal
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posted April 15, 2003 10:25 PM      Profile for Hal      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord:
I like the way these are working out, how about if Armor Compatability works as is, keeping the uniqueness of the Armsman, allowing the character to stack his Defense with the modified AC bonus the armor provides (+1 light, +2 meduim, and +3 for heavy). Those character without Armor Compatability instead subtract the AC bonus from there Defense instead of adding it. This makes wearing armor, something that has to be weighed.

Do I go no armor and try to avoid the blows, or wear some and hope the armor takes the damage.

I am not sure the subtracting armour thing is such a good idea. The DRs aren't high enough to justify taking the penalty imposed. If you were going to do this you should consider granting the armour bonus to only those with armour compatibility.

After thinking about it here is what I would do based on what Star Wars Revised did to the Soldier class. I would make the armour bonuses stack with class bonus (after all it is sensible that wearing armour always helps protect you) and change the Armsman class by removing armour compatibility but increasing their Class bonus to AC progression.

I admit that armour not stacking bugs me as does the explanation that the Armsmen's lower Class bonus to AC is based on the fact they rely on armour. The main fighting class in WoT should be able to defend himself better than others with out armour. They benefit from armour as they are proficient in it where most other classes aren't.

In summary I would do the following:

1. Adopt VP/WP with all the extras (KOs, fatigue and healing times)

2. Armour grants an AC bonus (protection of vital areas and possibility of deflection) and DR against VP damage (absorbing damage). Calculate these by taking the current Armour bonus, retaining an Armour bonus of +1 for light, +2 for medium and +3 for heavy and converting the rest into DR.

3. Armour bonus (now reduced) stacks with the Class bonus to AC.

4. The Armsman's Armour Capability is removed and their class bonus to AC is increased to equal the highest such progression (whichever class that is).

From: New Zealand | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hal
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posted April 16, 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for Hal      Edit/Delete Post
Here is another variation that makes things both simpler and deadlier. The core of the variation is to increase damage to a level similar to those in SW and D20 Modern (which use VP/WP or stacking armour/defence bonuses). This makes weapons more realistic and deadly (a sword blow can now kill you with one blow). Armour is not needed to defend yourself from being hit but is vital when you take damage. A Chainmail's DR of 5 is very handy.

Low level PCs will use armour where high level PCs may not need to as they can prevent most blows.

Remember that PCs start with more HP and VP heals back very quickly so remain reasonably robust.

1. Adopt VP/WP:

a) 1st level PCs get Con in WP
b) All PCs receive VP as HP each level with max VP at 1st level
c) A critical deals damage direct to WP.
d) If you suffer any WP damage you are considered fatigued (-2 to Str and Dex, cannot run or charge).
e) After taking WP damage you must make a Fort Save DC = WP damage suffered in that round or fall unconscious for 1d4 rounds.
f) WP heal at 1 per day and VP at level per hour. These can be doubled with care etc.

2. Convert all Armour Bonuses to DRs. So Chainmail now has a DR of 5. Shield still grant their Armour Bonus to AC.

3. Double all damage from wepaons and elsewhere (not bonuses). A long sword now does 2d8 damage, daggers 2d4 and longbow 2d8.

4. The Armsman's Armour Capability is removed and their class bonus to AC is increased to the best progression i.e. +4, +5, +5, +6, +6...

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skyman
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posted April 16, 2003 10:50 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I would do much similar but I think the al'gai should still have the best defense bonus; they are better at avoiding blows than wetlanders and can't wear armor.
I have been thinking about progressively higher damage based on level; each class would have a damage progression, just like BAB or saves. It could be, for warrior-types, +1d8 or so at 3rd, +2d8 at 5th, etc. Also some classes could choose a "specialty" weapon type that increased damage at a higher rate.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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