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Author Topic: Forsaken Checklist as of Crossroads ********POSSIBLE SPOILERS********
Knightrain
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posted February 05, 2003 11:39 AM      Profile for Knightrain      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmmm, what are all those little Forsakens up to?

We know that three of them are "Permanently" dead:
Be'lal - BFed by Morraine in tDR
Rahvin - BFed by Rand in tFoH
Asmodean - died under mysterious circumstances in tFoH (BFed by Graendel is my theory). RJ has repeatedly assured us that Asmo is "roadkill".

Two of them are dead, but not necessarily Pemanently dead:
Sammael - sucked up by Mashadar at Shadar Logoth in CoT (I think). RJ has said that Sammy is toast and the DO and Shadar Logoth evils aren't really compatable... but who knows.
Aginor - killed by Rand (kinda) in tEotW. Resurrected as one of the "'Gars" (Aran or Osan, I can't remember... the male one). Hung out in the Black Tower as Dashiva. Killed AGAIN at the "Taint Cleansing Party" (how embarrasing). We'll see if the DO gives another body to this loser.

Alive and at large, as far as we know:
Ishamael - Primary villan in the first three books until Rand killed him. Brought back as Moridin, even more evil than before. Seems to be "collecting" mindtrapped female Forsaken (more on this below).
Demandred - not Taim after all. Wherebouts unknown.
Balthamel - killed by Somshesta in tEotW. Resurrected as the female 'Gar and sent to Salidar posing as Halima. Causing and curing Egwene's headaches. Prime suspect for killing the Cuendillar makers (as if there's any doubt) and ratting Egwene out to the Tower during the "Turning the Chain to Cuendillar" party.
Graendel - keeping a low profile. Not entirely sure where she's hiding at the moment.
Semirhage - The popular belief is that she is Tuon's Truthsayer, Anath. If so, she got left behind in Ebou Dar. Bet she's not happy about that.
Lanfear - knocked through doorway ter'angreal by Morraine in tFoH. Held by the "'finn". Died OS and brought back as short, EXTREMELY busty Cyndene. Mindtrapped by Moridin.
Moghedian - more of an annoyance then an actual threat throughout the series. "Violated" by Shaidar Haran. Mindtrapped by Moridin.
Messana - pulling strings in the White Tower. There is every reason to believe that she was recently "violated" by Shaidar Haran. I suspect that the next book will reveal that she is now mintrapped by Moridin as well.

If Messana winds up mintrapped it establishes a pattern. Is Moridin mindtrapping just the female Forsaken... or is he looking to mindtrap ALL of them and is only starting with the females?

--------------------
"First, the blue suit with the 'S'... don't want to see it. Second, no flying. Don't want to see him fly. Last, he has to fight a giant spider in the third act."
-John Peters to Kevin Smith, guidelines for a "Superman" script-

"I've a great respect for brains... I rather wish I had some myself." -W.S. Gilbert-

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Whitewinds
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posted February 05, 2003 12:44 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
Moghedien was pulled into the implosion of Shadar Logoth. Whether she's alive of dead is unknown at this point.
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Dave Shramek
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posted February 05, 2003 02:25 PM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
Three things...

1. Possible spoilers?
2. I think the idea is Graendel is the one in Arad Doman causing the chaos with the king.
3. Where's the quote from your sig. I love the stuff Kevin Smith says against the Superman producers...

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As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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finnmckool
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posted February 05, 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for finnmckool   Email finnmckool    Edit/Delete Post
"Also, the flying's gotta go. And I want Braniac to try and find him in his fortress of solitude. But I want him to have a dog. And a talking monkey. And he has to fight Superman's guards. Polar bears." Dang, that's too funny.
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Knightrain
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posted February 05, 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for Knightrain      Edit/Delete Post
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where's the quote from your sig. I love the stuff Kevin Smith says against the Superman producers...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's from the "An Evening with Kevin Smith" DVD (I assume that it's on the video as well, if there is one). It's absolutely hilarious. I highly recommend it.

--------------------
"First, the blue suit with the 'S'... don't want to see it. Second, no flying. Don't want to see him fly. Last, he has to fight a giant spider in the third act."
-John Peters to Kevin Smith, guidelines for a "Superman" script-

"I've a great respect for brains... I rather wish I had some myself." -W.S. Gilbert-

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Knightrain
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posted February 05, 2003 05:32 PM      Profile for Knightrain      Edit/Delete Post
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote by Whitewinds:

Moghedien was pulled into the implosion of Shadar Logoth. Whether she's alive of dead is unknown at this point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I either missed that part or forgot about it (been a while since I read WH). All I remember is one of the defenders, after the fact, thinking about "... one dead renegade (an extra-crispy Dashivan'gar) and several singed Forsaken..."

I would imagine that would put her and Sammy into the same level of doubt. If the Shadar Logoth taint cancels out the Dark One taint can the Dark One bring back servants killed in or by Shadar Logoth?

Someone on another thread suggested that the incresingly frequent ghost sightings might be connected to the destruction of Shadar Logoth. If so, might we see Ghost-Moggy and Ghost-Sammy floating around? Who knows?

This just occured to me.... Who thinks that Suroth's invitation to Rand to meet The Daughter of the Nine Moons might really have been "Anath's" idea? Either way... I sense that there may be some sad bracelets in Rand's future.

--------------------
"First, the blue suit with the 'S'... don't want to see it. Second, no flying. Don't want to see him fly. Last, he has to fight a giant spider in the third act."
-John Peters to Kevin Smith, guidelines for a "Superman" script-

"I've a great respect for brains... I rather wish I had some myself." -W.S. Gilbert-

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finnmckool
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posted February 05, 2003 07:56 PM      Profile for finnmckool   Email finnmckool    Edit/Delete Post
Oh! That's on DVD? My buddies heard him tell that story live here in KY. Then he took everyone out to go see Changing Lanes.
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aleshandre
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posted February 06, 2003 08:55 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Knightrain:
This just occured to me.... Who thinks that Suroth's invitation to Rand to meet The Daughter of the Nine Moons might really have been "Anath's" idea? Either way... I sense that there may be some sad bracelets in Rand's future.

Even if he does get to wear the male adam collar, I feel sorry for the suldam that is given the leash. According to Mogy, as time passes, the male gains more strength in the circle created by that adam, until he has control. [Devilish] [ROFL]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
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Dave Shramek
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posted February 06, 2003 09:31 AM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
[QUOTE]Even if he does get to wear the male adam collar, I feel sorry for the suldam that is given the leash. According to Mogy, as time passes, the male gains more strength in the circle created by that adam, until he has control. [Devilish] [ROFL]

Oooo I don't remember that quote. That'd be really funny, but I'd hate to have to sit through two and a half books of Rand's torture at the hands of the a'dam and the sul'dam all the while getting snippets of his slow progression towards power. All the damane stuff bothers me (and rightly so). Really bad if you add Callandor into the mix.

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As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted February 06, 2003 10:34 AM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek:
That'd be really funny, but I'd hate to have to sit through two and a half books of Rand's torture at the hands of the a'dam and the sul'dam all the while getting snippets of his slow progression towards power. All the damane stuff bothers me (and rightly so). Really bad if you add Callandor into the mix.

Heh, that's if the sul'dam can even make him do anything. Something tells me that a sul'dam trying to make the Dragon Reborn (as "hard" as he is) try to do something he doesn't want to do is like trying to uproot an oak tree with her bare hands. Aes Sedai can generally make Warders do what they want, but remember when Alanna bonded him? She couldn't budge him. And that was what, four, five books ago? Rand's a lot stronger than that now.

It is unfortunate that more wasn't done in book 10. I'll be interested to look back (when I'm 50 and the series is finally done) and see if CoT was the "weak link" it seems to be at this point.

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"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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Knightrain
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posted February 06, 2003 12:29 PM      Profile for Knightrain      Edit/Delete Post
I seem to recall that the male a'dam has two bracelets. Would this not suggest that it requires TWO sul'dam to work properly? Either way, I agree that any sul'dam(s) that put the collar on Rand are in for a bit of a shock when they try to control him.

Not to mention the fact that rand is currently bonded to not one... not two... not three... but FOUR women who will INSTANTLY know something is up. Three of the four can channel and two of those three are uber-powerful and have access to Traveling (don't know if Alanna can Travel). Min and, to a lesser extent, Elayne have seen how the Seanchan "train" their damane. Methinks that the sul'dams will not have a whole lot of time to work on rand before help arrives.

--------------------
"First, the blue suit with the 'S'... don't want to see it. Second, no flying. Don't want to see him fly. Last, he has to fight a giant spider in the third act."
-John Peters to Kevin Smith, guidelines for a "Superman" script-

"I've a great respect for brains... I rather wish I had some myself." -W.S. Gilbert-

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JosephKell
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posted February 06, 2003 12:40 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
The male A'dam requires one sul'dam, if two are used then the progression to when the male has to agree to letting them out (taking off the bracelets) slows down. (The Sul'dam are always in control... after a while the male can keep from them unlinking, but it is more of each sul'dam having a limit or the male learning each one... /7 Getting to know you.../7 kind of thing, at least I believe so. And having two people to get to know at once is harder)

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Dave Shramek
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posted February 06, 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
Maybe one of the braclets is for the male channeler and that's why he loses a hand. [Evil Smirk]

Regardless, in thinking about it, I don't think that RJ would have put the male a'dam into the story, had it survive the attempt to drop it into the ocean, and have it fall into the hands of Suroth just to let it drop. It WILL come up, and perhaps if Anath is there with Suroth, especially if Suroth is a Darkfriend, we'll see her learn how to use it and Rand will actually be in serious trouble for a little while.

--------------------
As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 06, 2003 02:46 PM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek:
<snip the sad bracelets>
It WILL come up, and perhaps if Anath is there with Suroth, especially if Suroth is a Darkfriend, we'll see her learn how to use it and Rand will actually be in serious trouble for a little while.

Suroth is definitely a Darkfriend. We've known that since tGH. She's not a channeler, though, and so couldn't be one of the two women using the male a'dam.

--------------------
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LuciusT
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posted February 07, 2003 07:28 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
Suroth is definitely a Darkfriend. We've known that since tGH. She's not a channeler, though, and so couldn't be one of the two women using the male a'dam.

Does Suroth have 2 Black Ajah sisters under her control?
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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 07, 2003 07:30 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
Frankly, she doesn't need them. All she needs are a couple of sul'dam...which we already know she has.

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

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Dave Shramek
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posted February 07, 2003 09:17 AM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
[QUOTE]Suroth is definitely a Darkfriend. We've known that since tGH. She's not a channeler, though, and so couldn't be one of the two women using the male a'dam.

Yeah, I thought so. I'ts been a while. And yes, I forgot about the channeler thing for a second. I don't know why that would have happend. [Blush]

Anyway, my main point is that it will come up.

--------------------
As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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LuciusT
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posted February 07, 2003 09:36 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
Frankly, she doesn't need them. All she needs are a couple of sul'dam...which we already know she has.

True, but how many of her sul'dam are, to her knowledge, darkfriends completely subservient to her? Bringing Rand under control would only require sul'dam. Bringing Rand under the Shadows control, which has always been Ishamael's goal, would require either darkfriend sul'dam or black ajah, and (IIRC) we know she has black ajah.
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Dave Shramek
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posted February 07, 2003 09:42 AM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
Is she aware of the sul'dam can learn to channel bombshell? If so, she could make the leap to having Black Ajah control Rand, otherwise, it'd be the only thing saving him.

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As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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aleshandre
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posted February 07, 2003 10:33 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
She has a cllue to it since she knew that Renna, and Seta were held by the adam (a fact that she tried to hide). It would still be speculation to assume that she knows the secret; though not a large one. We do know that thanks to Egeanin, Tuon knows; and she is a trained suldam (though being trained and actually acting as one are completely different). Tuon is likely to hold that secret deep until she can be sure of the effect that it will have on the Empire. [Wink]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted February 07, 2003 12:24 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
Don't forget that thirteen Myrddraal and thirteen channelers can forcibly turn a person to the Shadow....and Rand, under the control of the a'dam, would be helpless.

--------------------
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Cail Loricson
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posted February 11, 2003 01:13 PM      Profile for Cail Loricson   Email Cail Loricson    Edit/Delete Post
The only time that anyone ever tried to control a male channeler with the a'dam was back when it was still tainted, and someone already said that that experiment did not end to prettily...besides, I think that the two bracelets means two sul'dam, because only one and the taint would spread too fast but having two means it would take longer to diffuse between them.

As for Rand being in trouble and getting rescued, at the end of LoC I think he proved how "helpless" he was, even when he can't channel he is still an uber-bad***...plus I would like to see if the a'dam could stop both Rand and Lews Therin, because it doesnt block you off from the source as effectively as being shielded, and there are essentially two "essences" inside Rand...so how would the a'dam react to two channelers in one necklace...?

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aleshandre
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posted February 12, 2003 05:29 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
OOOHHHhh, nice theory.....I guess we'll just have to RAFO.

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

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Whitewinds
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posted February 14, 2003 12:51 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
I've thought about this, and discussed it before with a friend of mine, and we came to a conclusion aboutthe male a'dam-analogue: You *must* have two women, each one braceleted, to use it effectively. If only one woman is wearing the bracelets, guess what? She's lost control, because in a one-man-one-woman link, the woman must initiate the link, but the man must control it. One of the male Forsaken reminds one of the female Forsaken of this, and we see this very clearly in the Cleansing, when Nynaeve couldn't do anything, even release the Source, while linked to Rand.
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Xythlord
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posted February 14, 2003 05:45 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Absolutely correct, which is why the sad bracelets have two braceletes and one collar and normal a'dam have one. This would allow a female channeler to shortcut the normal link of one man and one woman with another "third" woman in the group by wearing both bracelets and forcing the link.

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