Wizards.Com Boards: (***Spoilers from CoT***) New Rules for CoT

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Topic: (***Spoilers from CoT***) New Rules for CoT

Elsbon
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Member # 25397

posted February 19, 2003 11:21 PM

Hello all!

First, an apology to anyone that hadn't finished Crossroads in Twilight and read the original post. I can only plead forgetfulness.

So, *please*, don't read any further if you don't want to see any spoilers.

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Phew...well, with that out of the way, we'll continue my original post:

Been a little slow around here recently. Our 2nd campaign has been proceeding nicely, so I stop by frequently just to see everyone's nifty ideas (to suggest to my GM) [Smile]

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has considered some rules for the new material that appeared last book, specifically, 1) checking for resonance, and 2) making heartstone (I'm not looking up the old tongue spelling! [Big Grin]

)

The first seems like there's a couple of different ways of going about it:
1) Make it a feat
2) Make it a weave (what talent?)

I don't recall specifically from Crossroads: can all the Aes Sedai do it, just not very well? Or is it more like sensing residue (rare but not unheard of)?

Second, anyone have a write-up for making heartstone? Should this go into an existing talent, like Earth Singing, or get it's own talent?

[ February 21, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Elsbon ]

From: Ann Arbor, MI USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Snow Crash
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posted February 20, 2003 05:19 AM

It seems to me that sensing for resonance is a lot more common than sense residue. There was one bit int the book when the yellow sister said "By the time I got there 7 others had already tested for resonance"

There for I would make it a weave. Probably have all five affiinities as you don't know which you might be testing for, and maybe a warding talent. Probably about 3rd level and common. That would be my thought anyway.

As for the heartstone I personally would leave that as a NPC weave. Give the ability to make heartstone to a PC and they would quickly become too wealthy.

From: Australia | Registered: May 2002 | IP: Logged

Xythlord
Member
Member # 70903

posted February 20, 2003 05:33 AM

SPoiler
If you have not finished Crossroads of Twilight this post may spoil some elements of the book for you. Read at your own risk

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I would think that even if you made it a weave you could easily control it. Consider that the only way to find out how to do it would be 1)you must be with the Salidar Aes Sedai. 2)from the looks of things in the books, anybody with the ability (i.e. -the talents, strength and affinities necessary) gets shanghied into the Cuendillar sweatshop the Amryllian has going on....no choice in the matter (even full sisters were having to do it).

Men could not learn the weave from watching, and female channelers are probably not going to describe how it was made so they could figure it out.

I have created the weave for Craft: Cuendillar, if anyone is interested in my adaptation of that weave, let me know.

P.S. - You might want to consider adding possible spoiler to the title of this thread to prevent somebody from wandering in who has not finished the book. I accidentaly mentioned something about Heartstone to somebody I know before he was finished sometime back and still feel bad about it [Embarrassed]

.

[ February 20, 2003, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Xythlord ]

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From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged

JosephKell
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Member # 99447

posted February 20, 2003 11:43 AM

Putting it in Earth Singing would make a lot of sense, in the books male channelers seem to be able to know when Saidar is being grasped. So if it were a talent using both Earth, Fire, and Spirit would make men better at sensing.

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Dave Shramek
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posted February 20, 2003 01:20 PM

Yeah, Egwene is hyper good at Earth, which is probably why she's so good at making Cuendillar. I'd put it as a high level part of the Earth Singing talent (that's the one with delving, right?)

Anyway, it's just a weave, but it requires Concentration checks to keep doing it for the hours it'd take most people. The higher level the weave, the faster it goes. I wouldn't do a Craft check as it's the blacksmiths who are making the iron prototypes. However, I'd make whatever needed to be turned to cuendillar to be masterwork or better.

With regards to checking for resonance, I believe it's a weave, so I'd put it in the detection Talents or something primarily Spirit based. Perhaps wards.

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From: Austin | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged

JosephKell
Member
Member # 99447

posted February 20, 2003 06:11 PM

Well they said that metal in contact with metal would fuse, so you would have an hard time making armor. Shields I can see, breastplates: maybe. But you won't see many Mail shirts. The armor would have to be make with all the holes and in the form of the outcome before you change it, as far as I know, you can't bend Cuellendar.

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Duloth
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Member # 34440

posted February 21, 2003 12:07 AM

Apparently any iron object can be used, assuming its of decent quality. (Not necesarily masterwork; apparently any object made as well as a silver object would do.)

Any armor would be possible.. but the more pieces in the armor, the harder it would be. To make chain, you'd have to have a bunch of strings set up to suspend the rings, so that each ring, as you made it, was out of contact with all of the other rings. (Multiply the amount of time taken to do it to any armor with multiple parts, or designed to move, by 20, and increase the DC, if there is one, by 5. Its not so much harder as incredibly time-consuming.)

Now, the thing is.. making armor out of it wouldn't be that big a benefit. Remember, armor is normally assumed not to break when its hit, and the reason it provides an AC bonus instead of reducing damage is because it 'deflects' attacks rather than stopping them, making them not hurt you. Weapons deal more damage if heavier.. not tougher.. so making them out of it wouldn't give any great benefit, aside from having an unbreakable sword.

The best value is for sale.. which, for a male channeler, becomes incredibly dangerous, and can quickly lead to capture by the Aes Sedai if someone finds out he makes it.(As rare as it is, SOMEONE will find out if he sells more than one piece). and for a female channeler, means the white tower or the rebels will probably grab her up and put her to work, either teaching others or mass-producing it.

Basically.. its not unbalancing to put in the game, because the risks selling it carries is enourmous, and the advantages of using items made out of it isn't that great.

(A possible idea: Light armor gets a +1 bonus, medium a +2, and Heavy a +3, if made from it, while weapons receive no bonus other than being unbreakable, or possibly a +1 bonus from balance. (stacks with masterwork, so you could get a +2 to hit with it if it were both masterwork and made of this))

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From: Louisiana | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Snow Crash
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posted February 21, 2003 06:25 AM

I don't ever remember stories of weapons being made from heartstone. Maybe the act of makimg it makes it difficult to sharpen.

Like I said I don't remember any stories of it being used to make a weapon and you would think they would have used it during the age of legends if it was able.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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Member # 110617

posted February 21, 2003 08:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash:
I don't ever remember stories of weapons being made from heartstone. Maybe the act of makimg it makes it difficult to sharpen.

Like I said I don't remember any stories of it being used to make a weapon and you would think they would have used it during the age of legends if it was able.

I agree. The process was available when the War broke out, so if it was feasible to use cuendillar in weaponry I assume it would have been. Instead, they came up with a different process to make Power-Wrought swords (I think it had to do with using the Power while the weapon was being forged to give it that undullable(?) edge, not changing the hardness of an already-made item).

I see Cuendillar as similar to unbreakable fine porcelain, and honestly can't remember ever seeing an object in the books that was made out of cuendillar and had a sharp edge. It may have had to do with the fact that the cuendillar process uses iron rather than steel?

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Duloth
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posted February 21, 2003 10:27 AM

Or perhaps theres an even better reason weapons aren't made out of it. Maybe, despite its incredible toughness, its actually lighter than the iron it was made out of? If that were true, then while it'd be good for armor, it'd be horrible for weapons. The lighter the weapon, the less damage it does. Its the same reason they used lead for bullets instead of something like bronze or copper; the lead weighs more, and is more effective.

If you assumed that to be the case, then a weapon made from it would get a penalty to damage... maybe treat it as one size smaller weapon(I.E: A longsword would do shortsword damage)? And a bonus to hit?

And guess what... theres another, even BETTER reason why the Aes Sedai won't make weapons out of it.

"I will speak no word that is not true. [Confused]

I will make no weapon with which one man may kill another. [Confused]

I will never use the one power as a weapon, except against shadowspawn or in the last extreme defense of an Aes Sedai's life or a warder's."

This explains why they don't today.. but why didn't they back then?

Power-Wrought Blades. What is a power-wrought blade? Unbreakable. Never needs sharpening. Extremely well made.

Get the word?

Read it again. 'Unbreakable.'. Whats the most important description of HeartStone? Its a fine white material that is completely unbreakable, aside from by balefire. Maybe.. just maybe.. these swords are actually made of a different form of HeartStone? Or the process to make them is similar?

But then again.. if the power-wrought swords AREN'T made of it, or something similar, they STILL give the reason weapons were never made from it; it must have been easier for them, at the time, to make power-wrought weapons, and these power-wrought weapons were exactly the same or better than any that could be made from heartstone.

Basically, if your willing to give them the weave, let them make weapons or armor out of it. But if they try to make chain mail, don't tell them the way to do it; make them figure it out themselves.

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From: Louisiana | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Whitewinds
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posted February 21, 2003 01:51 PM

Here's what I came up with for the campaign I'm in:

Earth Singing

Create Cuendillar
Level: 0 and up
Affinities: Earth, Fire, Air
Casting Time: 1 round
Duration: Special

This weave creates from iron cuendillar, the nearly indestructible substance known more commonly as heartstone. Unlike most weaves, creating cuendillar is not harder without all three needed affinities; it is impossible. The creator must also have the Multiweave feat, as the creation of cuendillar requires two seperate but interdependent weaves.

To create cuendillar, an object must first be made from iron, patterned, shaped and chased as desired. All shaping of the iron *must* be done before the weave is begun, since it is absolutely impossible to reshape cuendillar. Once the item has been shaped, the weaves must be set on it and held; the object need not be changed in a single session. Unlike most weaves of greater than instant duration, create cuendillar cannot be tied off, only maintained. In the course of an hour, the channeler can create a base of ten grams of cuendillar per point of relevant ability modifier (Int & Wis for Initiates, Wis & Cha for Wilders, all three for wilder/initiate multiclass), times the square of the sum of the channeler's level and the level of weave used. Novices and zero level weaves are counted as level 1/8. Thus, the weakest Novice capable of actually using the weave could transmute 1.25 grams in an hour (about a fourth of a cubic inch), and the strongest channeler yet seen to do so could transmute about 550 kilograms in that same time.

As a substance, cuendillar has a hardness of 250, 50 hit points per gram, and any damage done after hardness is added to its hit points, to a maximum of twice its original hit points. After that point, damage done is subtracted normally. When subjected to any damaging effect, cuendillar is always assumed to make its saving throw.

Heartstone weapons should be considered equivalent to +2 (for weapons that do up to 1d6) or +3 (for weapons that do more than 1d6), with the Keen ability if applicable, and a heartstone shield equivalent to +3. Heartstone armour, if it could be obtained at all, would be considered +3, +4, or +5 for light, medium or heavy armour respectively, with the light, moderate or heavy fortification ability as described in the D&D Dungeon Master's Guide. On the other side, it should be kept in mind that such weapons and armour would be almost incomprehensibly valuable; a sword could buy a medium sized town, and a suit of full plate the entire nation of Tear, with change due. The drawbacks of such gear should be fairly obvious.

Side note: I worked it out, and by my calculations, a mail shirt would take nine weeks to change, assuming an eight hour work day and a six day work week. There are a *lot* of rings in a shirt...

Second side note: Yes, the hardness and hit points are insane. So's the substance.

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Dave Shramek
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Member # 107902

posted February 21, 2003 01:59 PM

Yeah, a chain shirt would require the weave to be made on each ring individually. Place a ring, change it. Make a new ring, rivet it to the cuendillar rings, change it. Repeat.

Looong time. Probably 5-20 times longer than making a normal chain shirt considering that every ring has to be individually processed into cuendillar.

With regards to the spell, I like it. But the formula could use some simplification or be written out. Plus translate it to lbs as that's what's in the book (I think).

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Whitewinds
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posted February 21, 2003 02:25 PM

The formula's a bit complex, I admit, but it's intended to represent the huge range we see in the book so a squared term is necessary. This is also why I used grams instead of ounces or pounds: To handle the low end gracefully. That, and I don't know how many grams there are to a US ounce. (28.37 grams=1 Imperial ounce, but an Imperial ounce isn't the same as a US ounce)

As for a mail shirt or other multi-part object, I see no reason it couldn't be made first, then changed piece by piece; the weave only fused the goblets and the links of the harbour chain because they were subjected to the same weave at the same time. Of course, it's still going to take a pretty fair while to change any complex object.

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Dave Shramek
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Member # 107902

posted February 21, 2003 02:58 PM

16 ounces to a pound, and 2.2 pounds per kilogram. Thus 28.41 grams per ounce.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted February 21, 2003 07:46 PM

I still don't know that I agree with cuendillar weapons. I don't see why channelers in the Age of Legends had to come up with a way to Power-forge swords if they could have just mass-produced iron swords and turned them into cuendillar.

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aleshandre
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posted February 21, 2003 08:14 PM

During the Age of Legends, they still had Shock Lances, so they didn't need Power Wrought weapons (or cuendillar weapons). After the breaking, it is possible that those who knew the making of cuendillar had all died, or gone mad. This left aligning the matrix, which is an entirely different process and doesn't require the high level of strength in earth (compared to cuendillar). This last part is ofcourse speculation drawn from what little we have been told. [Wink]

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From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Fahkrin
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posted February 21, 2003 11:04 PM

I have to say that I don't agree in making weapons and armor out of cuellenar (sp?) either.

But I can't agree that all the AS strong enough to create it died during the War of Power or the Breaking. The AS who survived the Breaking were strong enough to create a ter'angreal in Far Madding able to duplicate the stedding and there were male AS powerful enough to be able to create The Ways.

There were AS able to create cuellanar after the Breaking. So why don't we see weapons and armor? Before the WOP, weapons were rare at best. During the war of power, there were better things an AS could do with his time and power. Think of the Power wrought weapons as officer's weapons. A ceullanar weapon would be a High General or Field Marshal's secondary weapon; so rare as to easily be missed even after all this time. During the Breaking, the same thing. Its easy to justify the loss of weaves which required skills in Five Powers which weren't most common in women. All you have to do is suddenly drop the Earth affinity and....there it goes.

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aleshandre
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Member # 27286

posted February 22, 2003 06:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Fahkrin:
But I can't agree that all the AS strong enough to create it died during the War of Power or the Breaking.

What I said was that it is possible that those who knew the making of cuendillar may have all died durring the breaking. I don't think that it had anything to do with those surviving not being strong enough to. [Wink]

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Snow Crash
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Member # 85099

posted February 22, 2003 07:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek:
Yeah, a chain shirt would require the weave to be made on each ring individually. Place a ring, change it. Make a new ring, rivet it to the cuendillar rings, change it. Repeat.

Looong time. Probably 5-20 times longer than making a normal chain shirt considering that every ring has to be individually processed into cuendillar.

With regards to the spell, I like it. But the formula could use some simplification or be written out. Plus translate it to lbs as that's what's in the book (I think).

Why would it have to be done on each ring individually. In the book Egwene does it on an entire chain crossing the northbridge harbour. Not one link at a time.

PS does anybody know why she did this. Why would the people besieging Tar Valon want to give them an indestructable chain accross the habour.

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aleshandre
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Member # 27286

posted February 22, 2003 08:16 AM

According to RJ, when more than one item are done simultaneously, the objects fuse together. The same occured with the chain, preventing it from being lowered or raised. The chain is now a permanent blockaide for the harbor. If the process was used for any other multiple piece object, the objects would fuse in like manner, losing all flexibility. While a piece of plate armor may be workable as a single piece of cuendillar, chainmail would not be feasible except as JK described or if it is possible to set the weaves on a single link at a time, while the mail is fully assembled. Though even the weakest sisters with the ability may be able to complete a single link at a time faster than any single large object... just speculation. [Big Grin]

edit: It just occurred to me, the whitebridge may be a cuendillar structure made with fine pieces of iron strung together barely able to support itself until it was turned. Nobody mentioned it in any of the novels, and it is a possibility....which if true destroyed my speculation that those able to make cuendillar died by the end of the breaking. [Big Grin]

[ February 22, 2003, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: aleshandre ]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
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From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

Whitewinds
Member
Member # 124732

posted February 22, 2003 12:41 PM

The nine weeks figure I came up with for a mail shirt was based on the assumption that you can change a multipart item into cuendillar without fusing it, if you change one piece at a time. I can see no theoretical reason why this should not be possible; can anyone else? Remember that Egwene set the weaves on the harbour chain as a whole, not individual links.

As for the Whitebridge, it's repeatedly described as being of an unknown, glassy substance. If it were of cuendillar, it would not be unidentified; there were many imperishable substances available in the AoL. Presumably, the Whitebridge was made of one such, either before or after the Breaking. Remember that the founders of the Tower, as detailed in the BWB, Stilled large numbers of channelers to ensure their monopoly on the One Power, and thereby almost certainly destroyed a great deal of knowledge concerning the Power.

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Duloth
Member
Member # 34440

posted February 22, 2003 03:23 PM

Note: My method for making chain mail, since metal touching other metal makes it fuse, is to hang the chain mail up, and support the chains around a given one by string.. then you do that ring. Move on to the next one... Long and complex process/

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From: Louisiana | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

Elsbon
Member
Member # 25397

posted February 22, 2003 03:35 PM

Well, cuendillar is immune to balefile...that's a decent reason to get your armor made from it. [Big Grin]

Actually, I'd be vaguely tempted (if I was running a game) to give a character some sort of mysterious armor made with a layer of cuendillar - and then have them survive a hit of balefire. [Smile]

I get the impression that you don't make weapons with cuendillar. Just seems...redundant.... Anyway, I like drothgery's weave on making heartstone. I just might play with the casting time a little.

From: Ann Arbor, MI USA | Registered: Jun 2001 | IP: Logged

JosephKell
Member
Member # 99447

posted February 22, 2003 03:37 PM

I know Deflect Arrows isn't in the Wheel of Time book, but if a GM allowed the feat, would it seem fair if someone used that feat with a weapon made of Cuendillar, to parry a Balefire beam like Rand did in The Dragon Reborn?

[ February 22, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

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-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
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-If the God of Destiny asks you what will have next...
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Whitewinds
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Member # 124732

posted February 22, 2003 04:46 PM

quote:
I know Deflect Arrows isn't in the Wheel of Time book, but if a GM allowed the feat, would it seem fair if someone used that feat with a weapon made of Cuendillar, to parry a Balefire beam like Rand did in The Dragon Reborn?

The real question is how cinematic do you want to get? There are people in the real world who can block, break, or even catch arrows - I've seen it done. But blocking a beam weapon, that's another matter; even the Jedi can only do it because they possess a limited sort of precognition. Personally, I'd be inclined to say no, but this is *definitely* a GM call. And of course the reaction would be something along the lines of

[Dropjaw]