Author
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Topic: Altering the
way Talents work to better simulate the books: Comments?
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted May 19, 2003 05:18 PM
I have a
beef with the way Talents are used in the WoT game because
they seem to be an arbitrary mechanism from Wizards to try and
imitate DnD's distinct spell caster system (Wizard vs Cleric),
and has little to do with how channelers work in the book. For
instance, using this system a Sea Folk Wilder/10 with
affinities in Air and Water and a Talent in Cloud Dancing
could weave a howling wind that affects a 10 mile circle, but
upon learning the Arms of Air weave, could only move 25 lb.
objects. Channelers in the book are not constrained by
arbitrary categories for weaves, but only by their power in
each Affinity (Egwene is very good with Earth and Fire thus
can do lots of Earth related weaves no matter what Talent they
might be in). Thus I present a slightly altered system that
removes Talents as a category system, and recasts them as an
Affinity enhancement.
The One Power System remains
essentially the same except that Talent categories are removed
and the Talent feat is thus adjusted. Weaves are no longer
categorized by a Talent heading, like Cloud Dancing or Earth
Singing. All weaves are defined by the affinities it takes to
cast them. So Arms of Air is an Air weave and Riven Earth is
an Earth and Fire weave. This means that you can learn any
weave provided you can channel the minimum level. For example,
if you see a Riven Earth weave, successfully learn it through
weavesight, and can channel a 4th level weave, then you can
now cast Riven Earth.
Affinities and the Extra Affinity
Feat continue to work the same way. The Extra Talent Feat is
thus changed:
Extra Talent Feat: You are
extraordinarily talented in one of the Five
Powers. Prerequisite: You must already have an Affinity
(through character creation or Extra Affinity) with the Power
you choose. Benefit: Pick one of the Five Powers for which
you already have an Affinity, but not a Talent with. You now
have a Talent for that Affinity and the weaves that use it.
Weaves for which you have a Talent for all the affinities used
in it are now considered 2 levels lower than listed. Note that
the bonus for having an Affinities is included in this and
does not stack. For example, Distant Eye is 3rd level and has
the Affinities Air and Spirit. If you have Talents for both
Air and Spirit, you may treat Distant Eye as a 1st level
weave. Thus you may use a 1st level slot to channel
it.
In addition, you gain +2 to your weavesight check
for every Power you have a Talent for in the weave you are
trying to learn. For example, if you have a Talent for Earth
and see Riven Earth weave, you get +2 to your weavesight
check. If you have a Talent for Earth and Fire, you get a +4
to your weavesight check.
Lastly, you are now able to
invent, on your own, new weaves that use the Powers you have a
Talent for. The DC for creating a new weave is determined by
its average casting level (min+max/2, round up) against a
weavesight check:
Level | DC ------------ 0 |
5 1 | 10 2 | 15 3 | 20 4 | 25 5 | 30 6 |
35 7 | 40 8 | 45 9 | 50
You gain +2 to your
weavesight check for every Power you have a Talent for in the
weave you are trying to create. For example, you are trying to
restore a stilled Aes Sedai. The average casting level for
Restore the Power is 9. You have a weavesight of +20 (+16
ranks, +4 Int). You have a Talent for all five powers, giving
you +10 to your check. That gives you a weavesight bonus of
+30. Since the DC for level 9 is 50, you must roll a 20 to
figure out the weave Restore the Power. Since you are only
level 13 at this time, increasing your weavesight skill as you
rise in levels will increase your chances. It is up to the
GM's discretion as to how many times per level a character can
try and create a new weave.
-----------
Note:
You no longer get a Talent at character creation since you
only have one affinity at that time and can now learn any
spell you can cast. You could, though, use your first level
feat to gain a Talent in the Affinity you have.
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Matai Gaidin
Member Member # 68319
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posted May 20, 2003 02:27 PM
I've been pondering the One Power system, too;
I've been wishing it were closer to the books. My thought is
that the book characters talk about being strong in Fire or
Water or such. Also, some Weaves require great dexterity at
real "weaving" to accomplish, others are simple. I was
thinking of making Fire, Earth, Water, Air, and Spirit be
skills (or something like it). You must have at least one rank
in a skill to cast a weave using that affinity. Casting the
weave requires a d20 roll + your skill bonus versus a set DC
for the weave and level. I think it would be too complex to
set different DC's for each affinity used in a weave, but
perhaps a single DC and you use the lowest skill bonus of the
affinities the spell uses. For example, Selea the White Tower
Initiate (Accepted) attempts to cast Harden Air on a small
object. She uses a level-1 weave slot (as normal). She also
has to roll a Weave check. Harden Air only uses the Air
affinity and her Weave Air skill is +5, so she rolls and on a
5 or higher, she succeeds in weaving the Weave. Now, she
releases that weave and wants to cast Light. I don't have my
book here, but I think it uses Air and Fire. Her Weave Fire
skill is only +1 and the DC is still 10 for a level-1 weave.
She again uses 1st-level weave slot and rolls a d20. She gets
a 7, addes the +1 from her lowest skill and the result is an
8, a failure. She does not succeed in weaving Light, because
she is still inexperienced and weak in the Power. At
higher levels, her Weave Air skill could increase to +11 or
higher. In that case, a roll isn't necessary, she's always
able to cast Harden Air at a low weave level, it only requires
effort to cast it at the highest levels. Also, women would get
a bonus to their weave skills because, as the "Big White Book"
says, women are more skilled at weaving than men, but men are
stronger. Men might have a bonus to the save DC's of their
weaves, or they get extra slots. (On that issue, I prefer
Ishamael's slot point system, rather than the Core Book's
weave slots).
I don't know how to handle the case where
Rand can't Heal at all, Elayne can only heal a bruise, but
Nynaeve can Heal almost anything.
One more thing I
like about this system, is that weaves that use all 5
affinities are harder to cast. In the current system, a
weave that has all 5 is easier, in a way, because it gets
around the penalties of casting a weave you don't have the
affinities for; (if you don't have any affinities in the
weave, it takes an extra level to cast it; if you have all the
affinities, it's one level
less).
Feedback?
-------------------- "I
think Matai's dead!" "Good, I need the rest," Matai
replied.
From:
Modesto, California | Registered: Mar 2002
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
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posted May 20, 2003 02:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Matai Gaidin:
I've been pondering the One Power system, too;
I've been wishing it were closer to the books. My thought is
that the book characters talk about being strong in Fire or
Water or such. Also, some Weaves require great dexterity at
real "weaving" to accomplish, others are simple. I was
thinking of making Fire, Earth, Water, Air, and Spirit be
skills (or something like it).
Feedback?
In the system we used before d20 (Earthdawn), we had 2
separate skills for each affinity...weaving and force. (ie.
Water Weaving and Water Force) You would have vastly different
totals in each skill depending on how you spent your
experience points. Using this system, Travelling required four
weaving skill checks (at a set target #; 20 in this case) of 2
spirit threads, 1 fire thread and 1 air thread. If they
succeeded on all checks, then they would roll their Spirit
Force for the effect. Channelers can only weave one thread in
a initiative round, unless they 1) roll exceptionally high, or
2) roll sucessfully on a Multiweave skill check (allows one
additional weave in the round).
With this system, women
could get straight bonuses to their weaving skills, while men
could get straight bonuses to their force skills. With this
method as well, affinity skills could cost less or more
depending on the gender of the channeler. (Air and Water
skills cost 1 skill point, while Fire and Earth skills cost 2
for female channelers.) So on and so
forth...
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
From:
dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002 |
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted May 20, 2003 03:04 PM
Some short
thoughts. The main point against a system like you suggest is
that it adds a lot of paperwork. You end up having a different
rank for each weave, and when you go up a level and add to
your skills, you have to once again recalculate all your weave
ranks.
I'm considereing totally rehauling the OP system
to further simulate the books by having weaves not just have
affinities associated, but threads per affinity. Casting a
Harden Air at low level would require just 1 or 2 threads of
air, but at higher levels it might require 10-50 threads.
The books usually use the word "complexity" when
describing a weave to indicate it has hundreds of threads
involved in casting it (like Nyv healing someone). So a thread
number system would be a good simulation for that, but I'm
afraid would also be a paperwork headache.
Add to this
that Talents in the book vary from being a Dreamer (a feat) to
having a talent for Shielding (a weave). RJ states that one of
the Kin who is very weak in the power can shield woman far
stronger than her because she has a talent for it.
I
was going to add that to my new Extra Talent Feat that you
could also take it in a specific spell (like shield) and lower
the casting level by 1 each time, but it was getting pretty
long at that point and I wanted to get basic feedback first.
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Talan Palaemon
Member Member # 89819
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posted May 21, 2003 03:47 AM
I agree
that the RPG system doesn't reflect the books accurately. It
might seem a small thing, but it irritates me that Talents are
used as a limiter instead of a - well, special
talent.
I really like the bonus to Weavesight in your
Extra Talent, and the ability to invent new Weaves are also
cool. The skill-based channeling systems involve way too
much number-crunching for my taste. I think its possible to
"repair" the current system.
There are, however,
several problems involved with changing the system:
-
Talents are used as a restriction, and removing that makes
Channelers even stronger (not good IMO, they are powerful
enough).
- Same problem with changing Talents into a
bonus, only worse.
I don't think its a good idea to
remove the concept of Talents entirely, they ARE mentioned
repeatedly in the books and is not the same as Affinities. A
Talent in Healing for instance lets you create stronger
healing weaves, while channelers without the talent can hardly
use it (Elayne, Wise Ones etc). It seems to me that most
Talents makes a channeler better at specific very complicated
weaves (or group of similar weaves). Both Healing and Cloud
Dancing, for instance, are described as being very complex
weaves. This is different from the simple elemental type
weaves that every channeler uses (manipulation of Air or Fire
for instance), and whose strength are dependent on Affinities
(and Level off course).
The RPG system has a lot of
weaves that can be used by all (the 0-levels for Ini and
2-levels for Wilders), but I don't agree with all their
choices. A simple solution would be to make Elementalism
usable by all channelers, and keep the real Talents (those
described by RJ). I am not sure what to do with
Conjunction and Warding, but are there any channeler in the
books who doesn't know how to Shield ? Perhaps these Talents
should also be common Knowledge (though different Traditions
know different weaves, like the Aes Sedai specialty Bond
Warder).
Hope you can figure something out - as you can
see this has been a pet project of mine for some time
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted May 21, 2003 10:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Talan
Palaemon: Talents are used as a restriction, and
removing that makes Channelers even stronger (not good IMO,
they are powerful enough).
- Same problem with
changing Talents into a bonus, only worse.
I don't
think its a good idea to remove the concept of Talents
entirely, they ARE mentioned repeatedly in the books and is
not the same as Affinities. A Talent in Healing for instance
lets you create stronger healing weaves, while channelers
without the talent can hardly use it (Elayne, Wise Ones
etc).
It seems to me that most Talents makes a
channeler better at specific very complicated weaves (or
group of similar weaves). Both Healing and Cloud Dancing,
for instance, are described as being very complex weaves.
This is different from the simple elemental type weaves that
every channeler uses (manipulation of Air or Fire for
instance), and whose strength are dependent on Affinities
(and Level off course).
You're right. It essentially starts out every channeler
as having every Talent. But as it works in he rules now, that
just means everyone has the ability to learn any spell (and
potentially cast it). Talents as they are don't really make
you supered skilled in a particular weave (Healing, Shielding,
Wind Calling), they just make you able to cast them, which is
what I didn't like.
One way to balance the power in my
system is to take the levels of every weave and increase it
one. So a first level weave is now a second level weave, etc.
Then dropping two levels for having all the Affinities and all
the Talents isn't as powerful, but taking a Talent in the
weave itself to drop another level is still worth the
feat.
Another possibility is haveing the Talent feat
cost two feats (latent Air Talent, then Air Talent). This
would suck up channeler's feats faster.
quote:
The RPG system has a lot of weaves
that can be used by all (the 0-levels for Ini and 2-levels
for Wilders), but I don't agree with all their
choices.
A simple solution would be to make
Elementalism usable by all channelers, and keep the real
Talents (those described by RJ).
That's also an interesting idea, to create a "common"
talent that all channelers have and put the basic weaves into
that, then rearrange the other talents so that the spells in
them mean something. It still means taking a Talent only makes
you able to learn a weave and not mean really good at
it.
The best example I can think of for how Talents
should work, aside from shielding, is with making Heartstone.
Any Aes Sedai can learn the weave, but only a few can channel
enough Earth to do it. Even for most of those, it still takes
forever to to make, but for Egwene, who has an Earth Talent,
she can turn the whole dock chain to heartstone in an
instant.
Again, it's a matter of how to simulate this
in the RP system without making channelers too powerful.
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Talan Palaemon
Member Member # 89819
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posted May 22, 2003 04:12 AM
Just a few
comments
quote:
One way
to balance the power in my system is to take the levels of
every weave and increase it one. So a first level weave is
now a second level weave, etc. Then dropping two levels for
having all the Affinities and all the Talents isn't as
powerful, but taking a Talent in the weave itself to drop
another level is still worth the feat.
This is a good idea, since it turns a Talent into a
bonus. I would consider using a group of common weaves,
however, so some weaves remain unaltered.
quote:
The best
example I can think of for how Talents should work, aside
from shielding, is with making Heartstone. Any Aes Sedai can
learn the weave, but only a few can channel enough Earth to
do it. Even for most of those, it still takes forever to to
make, but for Egwene, who has an Earth Talent, she can turn
the whole dock chain to heartstone in an instant.
What if weaves from a Talent you don't have could only
be cast at a level of effect similar to the bonus from
the channelers primary channeling stat (Int for Ini, Wis for
Wil) ? This would further differentiate channelers with great
potential (i.e. high stats) from those with less inborn
power. There is a problem with the Wilders ability to cast
cross-talent weaves, but i guess they could gain a bonus to
their modifier or maybe a bonus feat instead
I have no problem with channelers having the
potential to learn all weaves - the GM should be able to
control which weaves the channeler can learn anyway - but different channelers should have different
strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps channelers should also
pick a talent they are really poor at, and which they can
never gain ? You could thus have 4 different levels of
Talents: - No Talent at all and unable to learn. -
Untalented: you have no special Talent with these weaves, but
can cast them at a low level. - Talented: You can cast high
level weaves from this Talent. - Very Talented: Weaves from
this talent counts as one level lower, you gain a bonus to
weavesight and may be able to create new weaves.
Well,
it needs some work, but what do you think ? Would it cost too
many feats ?
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LuciusT
Member Member # 4474
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posted May 22, 2003 07:22 AM
Well, I've
been working on revising the channeling system myself and
here's what I came up with while half asleep last
night.
My thought is to make all weaves under
Elementalism and Earth Singing "general" in some way. My
reasoning is that those weaves represent things all channelers
seems to be able to do. Talents, OTOH, represent
extra-ordinary things some channelers can do and others
cannot. I have 3 distinct thoughts on how to do
this.
1) All channelers have access to all levels of
these weaves. However, channelers do not start with a free
Talent. Essentially, the free Talent granted by the channeling
classes is Elementalism+Earth Singing.
2) All
channelers have access to levels 0-3 of these weaves. Greater
access if bought by taking the Elementalism Talent.
3)
All channelers have access to levels 0-3 of these weaves. The
higher levels of the weaves are divided into 4 Talents by
element (Air, Fire, Water, Earth) and access to those higher
levels is bought by taking the relevent Talent. I might refer
to those Talents as Strengths... such as Strength in Air.
That's merely a name change, the effect is essentially the
same. The reasoning there is that in the boooks people are
refered to as being "Strong" in a given Power and I don't feel
that the Affinities really model that properly.
From:
Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001
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Talan Palaemon
Member Member # 89819
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posted May 23, 2003 04:55 AM
It might be
usefull to define what a Talent is (though i am not sure RJ
has one ).
The books describe different Talents, but
some are only mentioned (like Milking Tears and Aligning the
Matrix - the last is probaply used to make power-wrought
items) and others have nothing to do with the One Power
(Foretelling, Dreaming etc). This leaves Cloud Dancing,
Healing, Earth Singing, Travelling and perhaps Balefire and
Illusion (called Mask of Mirrors or Mirror of Mists). These
Talents/sets of weaves have one thing in common: They
represent extremely complicated weaves, which can be used in a
variety of ways (I am not talking about the different weaves
Wizards use; is Harden Air and Arms of Air different weaves in
the books, or are they different ways to use the same weave
?). Some also affect large areas (Cloud Dancing is not
manipulation of Air, but of weather - which we all know is
very complicated). Try to imagine all the specific effects you
would have to accomplish in order to heal a simple wound
(connecting each muscle and sinew, removing blood and
infections, etc, etc). This is not the same as creating a
flame or stirring a pool of water.
Normal Channelers
cannot use weaves from Talents very effectively, but if you
have the Talent you can cast complicated weaves with the same
ease that you manipulate the raw elements (represented by Air,
Water, Fire, Earth and Spirit).
Well that was my shot
at the theory behind Talents, and this is what i think the
system should reflect.
quote:
My
thought is to make all weaves under Elementalism and Earth
Singing "general" in some way. My reasoning is that those
weaves represent things all channelers seems to be able to
do.
I think this is only true to a certain extent. Use of
Earth to manipulate stone (for instance when Rand removes
footprints from a Darkhound by smoothing the floortiles)
belongs in the Elementalism Talent (which everyone can do).
But the use of Earth to create Earthquakes and movements in
the earth is a special Talent (complex effects, huge areas).
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LuciusT
Member Member # 4474
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posted May 23, 2003 06:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Talan
Palaemon:
quote:
My
thought is to make all weaves under Elementalism and Earth
Singing "general" in some way. My reasoning is that those
weaves represent things all channelers seems to be able to
do.
I think this is only true to a certain extent. Use of
Earth to manipulate stone (for instance when Rand removes
footprints from a Darkhound by smoothing the floortiles)
belongs in the Elementalism Talent (which everyone can do).
But the use of Earth to create Earthquakes and movements in
the earth is a special Talent (complex effects, huge
areas).
Except that Moiraine could create earthquakes and
didn't appear to have any special Talent in that regard.
From:
Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001
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Talan Palaemon
Member Member # 89819
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posted May 24, 2003 02:34 AM
quote:
Except
that Moiraine could create earthquakes and didn't appear to
have any special Talent in that regard.
Thats true, and it's exactly why i used to lump Earth
Singing and Elementalism together. One small "problem"
however: Earth Singing is described in some of the
Glossaries, so if you want to play by RJ´s rules Eathquake
belongs in a Talent. There could be several explanations
for Moiraines use of Earthquake. 1) She is a very special and
talented Channeler, and uses lots of weaves nobody else uses
(Balefire, her wall of fire in EotW etc etc). 2) I think she
was using an angreal (?), thus making a modest ability to
weave Earth Singing weaves very effectful.
My earlier
post was an attempt to explain something (namely Talents)
thats not very logical, because the term is used rather
loosely in the books (where it covers the use of related
weaves, but also sometimes the use of a single weave (like
Balefire or Invisibility).
I think the main problem in
the current RPG system is how to limit the abilities of
channelers who does not have a Talent, and how to make those
who do better.
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Magus
Member Member # 52045
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posted May 24, 2003 03:30 PM
i don't
know... It's ok and doesn't involve alot of paperwork as is.
With me, I just altered the overchanneling rules (every use of
overchanneling past the first increases the check DC by +1),
and made it so you don't have to spend a feat for a Talent.
Instead, just use Weavesight to learn the talent, DC 30 if i
remember right.
-------------------- Who would have
thought Drew Carry was Cthulhu-spawn?
From:
Stillwater, OK | Registered: Dec 2001
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Snow Crash
Member Member # 85099
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posted May 27, 2003 07:10 AM
My big
upset is the lack of fatigue. In the books Aes Sedai are
always fatigued by lots of channeling, sometimes to the point
where they can't stand up etc. This very rarely comes into
play unless one overchannels a lot, even then it hardly seems
indicitive of how the books handle it. I would rather see the
ability to increase the power of weaves by spending Subdual
Hit Points. If someone can work this one out for me I would be
eternally grateful. In our campaign we have removed a lot
ofthe rule for the sake of keeping it as close to the books as
we can. eg no saves vs the Oath Rod or aDam.
From:
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LuciusT
Member Member # 4474
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posted May 27, 2003 09:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Talan
Palaemon: [QUOTE] One small "problem"
however: Earth Singing is described in some of the
Glossaries, so if you want to play by RJ´s rules Eathquake
belongs in a Talent.
IIRC, Earth Singing is mentioned but never defined. We
don't know that the RPG defines it correctly (and before
anyone says RJ reviewed the RPG, let me remind you that he
managed to miss the entire 3rd act of Winter of Discontent in
Prophecies of the Dragon).
quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash: My big
upset is the lack of fatigue. In the books Aes Sedai are
always fatigued by lots of channeling, sometimes to the
point where they can't stand up etc. This very rarely comes
into play unless one overchannels a lot, even then it hardly
seems indicitive of how the books handle it.
Before the offical rules were published, the idea was
put around to use a Star Wars style system, where instead of
slots using weaves caused an amount of subdual damage. I'm not
sure that system works properly either.
Ultimately, I
don't think d20 is really set up to model increasing fatigue
well.
[ May 27, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited
by: LuciusT ]
From:
Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001
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Snow Crash
Member Member # 85099
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posted May 28, 2003 06:03 AM
We are
thinking of using a system where just that happens .
If
you don't have the affinities you take subdual damage from
casting the weave, we were thinking around (3xweave
level)-(channeler level) for every affinity you don't
have.
ie 8th level channeler casting 5th level weave
requiring Earth, Water and Fire.
She has Water but not
the other two. therfore 3x5-8=7pts for fire and another 7 for
earth for a total of 14pts subdual damage. Still need to test
it but something like that. Maybe only 2x but double if you
don't have the talent or any of the affinities.
This
would allow moderate level channelers to cast low level weaves
with no fatigue but high levels would still really knock them
about.
[ May 28, 2003, 06:05 AM: Message edited
by: Snow Crash ]
From:
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Mad_Wanderer
Member Member # 139506
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posted June 06, 2003 02:23 PM
On the
talent matter i have been thinking about it lately too. I
have decided that lost feats should not be chosen by players
first of all. They are a bonus that i will give without
telling them every few levels. I find that reflects the
books well. As for talents, i would do the same and would
add an Improve talent feat. This can be taken to improve an
existing talent or a spell, either increasing the DC to resist
it or lowering the level of the weave. As for as negative
talents like being unable to heal....Well ...the DM could
perhaps randomly choose a couple of domains or weaves where
the character would be unable to cast such a weave
Just
a few thoughs
From:
Clermont ferrand | Registered: May 2003
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OgierSedai
Member Member # 143892
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posted June 06, 2003 05:11 PM
Snow
Crash:
I really like that idea/formula for the fatigue
on channeling.
On the note of Talents; Since RJ writes
them as being a broad range of variations of power within a
person, I think the effects of a weave should be determined on
the area that they can effect.
But I'm pretty new to
the weave system, I'll have to learn more and maybe get a
crazy idea for how to modify the talent/affinity system in my
sleep.
[ June 06, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited
by: OgierSedai
]
-------------------- O
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candyman
Member Member # 140484
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posted June 06, 2003 06:38 PM
I think
that the best way would be to do away with the talents except
for ones like dreamer,foreteller, sniffer, treesinger, old
blood,and viewer. And just dividing the weaves into
affinities. The way that you would gain access to the higher
level weaves would be through using lower level weaves of that
affinity. And in order to use multiaffinity weaves you would
have to have built up your levels in each of the
affinitiesLike to use lightning you would have to have a
certain # of levels of each affinity built up. You would still
have to learn it in the normal manner however. The purpose of
the extra affinity feat would be just to make it so that you
could cast a weave from that affinity with a lower # of levels
in that affinity. That would make it so that all the spells
that use multiple Affinities are harder to cast than those
that just use one. What do y'all think about
this.
-------------------- "Time to toss the dice."
Matrim Cauthon
From:
http://www.wizards.com/wheeloftime/images/Gallery_GnA/wot_72.jpg
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
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posted June 06, 2003 08:20 PM
Mmm. I
prefer skill-based magic. *points at his sig*
If you
want to use something more official than my own thing, take a
gander at Deadlands d20. Leave the spells, leave the levels,
but each spell simply requires a DC: 15 + 2* spell level skill
check to cast. If a spell has multiple elements, then use the
average of the skill
ranks.
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep! Not
just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
Undead Armies foundation, member 000 (Thats right, Not even
I'm a member)
From:
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candyman
Member Member # 140484
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posted June 06, 2003 09:49 PM
I dont
know. I just don't see how they would be able to weave a level
6 fireball if they havent even learned to light a
candle.
-------------------- "Time to toss the
dice." Matrim Cauthon
From:
http://www.wizards.com/wheeloftime/images/Gallery_GnA/wot_72.jpg
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MT
Member Member # 88155
|
posted June 07, 2003 01:20 AM
Just to
update my thoughts on this, I've been writing out a OP system
that is defined only by the Five Powers, Threads, and
Strength.
Looking at all we know of channeling from the
books, I assumed weaves work like this:
Distinguishing
aspects of weaves:
- Which
of the five powers are used to make them.
- The
number of threads of each power required.
- The
size of those threads (strength).
Thus channelers
are defined by:
- How
many threads they can handle (skill).
- Overall strength.
- Strength in each Power.
Basic weaves are
those that only use one Power to channel (Air, Water, etc).
Complex weaves would use multiple Powers and/or require more
threads to weave. For example, say you wanted a puff of
wind to blow out a candle. That only requires 1 Thread of Air,
and a Strength of 1. Now say you want to weave hurricane winds
at a building. It still only requires 1 Thread, because the
weave isn't any more complex, it's still just pushing air
around, but it might require a Strength of 50. Now if you
wanted to get more complicated and pick something up with Air,
that might require 5 Threads. Then to pick up a 5 lb. object
would require a Strength of 1, where as to pick up a building
would require a Strength of 50; though still the same basic
weave that you used to blow out the candle.
Another
example, say you want to heal someone. That uses Air, Water,
and Spirit. It's more complex so it uses more threads. Thus to
channel a healing weave, you must be able to handle 5 Air
Threads, 5 Water Threads, and 10 Spirit Threads. It might then
take a Strength of 5 to heal a simple cut, a Strength of 25 to
remove a poison, and a Strength of 50 to reattach a
limb.
Unlike the basic Air weave, this requires 20
Threads over three Powers. That means channelers who can't
handle 10 Spirit threads will be unable to weave a heal. It
also requires a lot of strength to do anything beyond basic
stabilization, so those who are skilled (can handle many
Threads) but are weak in the power can only do so
much.
This is a little more skill based, where Threads
of the Five Powers are your skills, and your Strength is your
"level".
The numbers I've chosen here are arbitrary.
That's the main hurdle in designing this system is to balance
the numbers. I'm thinking if you get Strength by rolling a
d10/level, that would make lvl 1 channelers Strength average
to 5 and lvl 20 average to 100. Threads would be given out at
5 / lvl, so at 1st lvl, you could choose to handle 1 thread in
all five Powers, or 5 threads in one Power.
Add to this
feats you can take that would increase your Threads in a Power
or your Strength in a Power, so as to allow for more
distinction among which channelers are good at what.
If
I go with these numbers, then I have to design every single
weave so that basic weaves can be cast by anyone (1-5 Threads)
and powerful weaves can only be cast at hire levels (20-50
Threads). It becomes a balancing/play testing issue at that
point. I think the foundation of making the one power system
based on skill in the Powers (threads you can handle at once)
and Strength in the OP (level based), better reflects the
books, and also makes it so you don't have to learn 5 separate
simple Air weaves. Once you know the basic weave, you just add
Threads and Strength to do more complex things.
Again,
I haven't playtested this, nor even thought it all the way
through, but it seems like it will work in principle.
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OgierSedai
Member Member # 143892
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posted June 07, 2003 07:32 PM
I like your
idea MT, it seems to have a lot of potential for something
more distinct.
How should weaves be organized though?
By rarity/commonality? Or still under talents? Or by the
affinities they require?
I thought about making
affinities skill based for my game, kind of like the GRUPS
spell system, but I'd rather not.
If there's anything I
might be able to do to help let me know.
my emails,
rickhunter_vf1j@yahoo.com
-------------------- O
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted June 07, 2003 09:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OgierSedai: How
should weaves be organized though? By rarity/commonality? Or
still under talents? Or by the affinities they
require?
They aren't really categorized at all (Talents are
gone), but are simply defined by the number of Threads of each
Power it requires to cast them.
Manipulate Air is Air
(1, 5, 10, etc.) Manipulate Fire is Fire (1, 5, 10,
etc.) Heal is Air (5), Water (5), Spirit (10) Balefire
is Air (15), Water (15), Fire (15), Earth (15), Spirit
(15)
Again, these are arbitraty numbers until the whole
system is finalized. Strength would then be the variable of
how much you could do with each weave. Feats can be used to
increase your skill in individual Powers and your Strength in
individual Powers.
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OgierSedai
Member Member # 143892
|
posted June 07, 2003 09:56 PM
I thought
about the starting strength points on determining them for the
system you're devising. (I know the values can still change
through playtesting and such.)
For determining
strength points at character creation and at each level, do
the d10 roll, and also add your 2 class specific ability
modifiers together and divide by 2(rounded up.) Add the result
to your d10 roll.
EG: Salimtair is a Borderlander
Initiate with a Wisdom of 14 and an Intelligence of 15.
2+2=4/2=2, her d10 roll was a 9. so she gets 11 points to
start with and spend on threads.
What do you think?
It's my first time doing something like this so I'm pretty new
to making up rules and the like. I've begun work on
converting the weaves into strength values for threads, I'll
write some down here
tomorrow.
-------------------- O
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted June 08, 2003 12:22 AM
That's
similar to what I was thinking, but you're partially confusing
things. Channelers have two aspects for channeling: skill with
Threads and Strength in the OP.
Thread Skill is a flat
number of points assigned every level. I'm toying with 5/lvl +
Wis mod right now. For each Talent Skill Point you get, you
assign it to one of the 5 Powers. So at first level (5 + 0 in
this example), you can have one Thread Skill Point in Air,
Water, Fire, Earth, and Spirit; or put all five points in one
Power. In addition, to match the books, Women would start with
5 points in Air, Water, and Spirit; and Men would start with 5
points in Fire, Earth, and Spirit.
This would give
characters a minimum of 5 skill points at first level, 50 at
tenth level, and 100 at 20th. Given this, a weave that
requires 20 threads in all five powers can only be channeled
by a 20th level character (the Wis mod and channeling feats
would lower this though).
Also, a weave that requires
21+ threads in one of the Powers would require that the
character specialize in the Power. For instance, making
heartstone could require 30 Threads of Earth and 20 of Fire.
That would require a channeler to sacrifice Thread Skill
Points in one of the Powers to specialize in
Earth.
Strength in the One Power determines how
powerful you can make a weave. I'm thinking d10 + Int Mod /
level. This would average (with +0 mod) to 5 at first, 50 at
10th, and 100 at 20th. So if you want a 1st level channeler to
be able to cast a weave, you want the Strength requirement 5
or lower. This is because when you cast a weave, you subtract
the Strength required from your Strength Points. Thus if a
character has 5 points and they can cast one weave that uses 5
points, or five weaves that require 1 Strength Point. Resting
for 6 hours returns your Strength Points to you.
Unless
they overchannel. Overchanneling is casting a weave that
requires more Strength Points than you currently have. Similar
to the current system, there are two types of overchanneling:
1. Channeling a weave that you can normally cast if you hadn't
used up your Strength Points for the day already. 2.
Channeling a weave that you couldn't normally cast even if you
had all your Strength Points. I haven't thought of how to
resolve these situations, but I assume Concentration DCs and
Fortitude saves will work, but saying you can take subdual
damage in place of Strength Points is
interesting.
Assuming these are the numbers I go with,
from here on out, it's a matter of designing the Weaves and
how many Threads and how much Strength it takes for each one.
Complicated weaves should require more threads and power
effects should require more Strength. You have to consider
things like if you want channelers to be able to weave some
form of healing at 1st level, and at what level do you want a
channeler to be able to cast Restore the Power. Then you write
up every weave, playtest it all, and viola.
[
June 08, 2003, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: MT ]
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