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Author Topic: Cuendillar
Whitewinds
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posted January 29, 2003 06:41 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone have any sort of stats for this stuff? I'm personally inclined to this:

Hardness 1,000, and hit points of 250/gram (28.35 grams=1 avoirdupois ounce). When an attack *does* exceed the hardness, the damage done is *added* to the object's hit points, up to double the base hit points. After that, further damage will weaken it normally. Also, cuendillar is always assumed to make its saving throw.

Yes, the values above are insane. But considering what it took just to make the Seals fragile...

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JosephKell
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posted January 29, 2003 07:00 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
... I want Cuendillar Full Plate for my Armsman.... [Devilish]

Would it grant a DR to the wearer? Or increase the defense of the item?

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Whitewinds
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posted January 29, 2003 07:32 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
... I want Cuendillar Full Plate for my Armsman.... [Devilish]

Would it grant a DR to the wearer? Or increase the defense of the item?

I'm not certain, but working by comparison to the Power-wrought blades in WoT, and the special materials in D&D, I'd be inclined to say that armour would have a Defense bonus of probably +3 or +4. Mind you, there's a *lot* of iron in a suit of armour, and it's in lots of pieces, so making cuendillar armour is going to be a very expensive proposition, assuming you can find a channeler both able and willing to do so (good luck!)
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JosephKell
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posted January 29, 2003 07:57 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
what about just a Breast Plate? that is just two pieces....

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Eagle Prince
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posted January 29, 2003 08:39 PM      Profile for Eagle Prince   Email Eagle Prince    Edit/Delete Post
Heartstone armor, I'd probably do a +5 enhancement bonus w/ heavy fortification (immune to criticals).

I would give it a hardness of probably 40, and same hit points as steel, then say all damage absorbed by the hardness gives it the same number of temporary hit points for 24 hours or something.

Probably not exactly how it would work by the books, but that way probably wouldn't end up too well mechanically.

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JosephKell
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posted January 29, 2003 08:53 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Damage Absorbing Breast Plate.... *Drool* [Devilish]

*Imagines balefire splashing off the armor!* HA.. HA HA, HA HA HA HA! *Falls over and hits his head* Ow...

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Caeln
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posted January 30, 2003 01:07 AM      Profile for Caeln      Edit/Delete Post
I would stick to the novels here. If I recall anything at all, Cuendillar should be indestructible, or at least very close to.

Besides, making an armor out of it is quite difficult, since making of Cuendillar is a lost ability (and still is one even in the novels). A VERY lost ability.

But if you would manage to make an armor out of it, the statistics might be difficult to come by. If you could cover your whole bodu with Cuendillar, you would be impossible to wound (except for bruises, of course).

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Jak Shadow
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posted January 30, 2003 04:01 AM      Profile for Jak Shadow   Email Jak Shadow    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Caeln:
I would stick to the novels here. If I recall anything at all, Cuendillar should be indestructible, or at least very close to.

Besides, making an armor out of it is quite difficult, since making of Cuendillar is a lost ability (and still is one even in the novels). A VERY lost ability.

But if you would manage to make an armor out of it, the statistics might be difficult to come by. If you could cover your whole bodu with Cuendillar, you would be impossible to wound (except for bruises, of course).

*Chokes.*

*Manages to stay silent despite himself.*

Gah!!!!! Erm, yeah, well...

So, the Cuendillar is certainly indestructible, if you were fully encased in armour made form the stuff nothing could damage you, although something like a fall from a great height would still kill you. The armour would be fine but you'd be jelly inside of it =) Slashing and piercing weapons would be totally uneffective against it, bludgeoning ones might be seen to do subdual damage? Bruising and suchlike...

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Xythlord
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posted January 30, 2003 05:34 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Easy there....hold on, you can do it. [Roll Eyes]

Ok, better. About the only thing I can think of that would be the down side of having cuendillar armor is that it would probably be worth the entire nation of Tear, with a little change to spare. I'm not sure any level of protection is worth having everyone seeing if you have just donated to their personal retirement fund. It would be like somehow making a bullet proof vest out of diamond now-adays. Sure, you could probably deflect any bullet (just a loose theory mind you, only for example)but gawd help you if you go into any part of town that adventurers normally frequent.

Also it would have to be made out of solid peices (plate, breast plate, etc.) Obvously no chain shirt [Wink]

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Tam al'Moff
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posted January 30, 2003 08:00 AM      Profile for Tam al'Moff   Email Tam al'Moff    Edit/Delete Post
Egwene did the chain in the harbour of Tar Valon almost instantly and it must have been many seperate pieces. IMHO it would be just as easy to do a mail shirt as it would to do a breast plate.

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Lord Schpungus
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posted January 30, 2003 08:55 AM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
But doing two cups at once fused them together. Also, what would be the point of turning the iron chains across the harbor into cuendillar if they don't fuse together? They'd still be able to retract it as normal if it wasn't fused. That's the reason they did it in the first place, was to block incoming ships by placing an impassable barrier of solid cuendillar across the harbor.
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Jak Shadow
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posted January 30, 2003 08:57 AM      Profile for Jak Shadow   Email Jak Shadow    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tam al'Moff:
[Cut for *SPOILER*]. IMHO it would be just as easy to do a mail shirt as it would to do a breast plate.

Um, dude, careful of *SPOLIERS* as don't forget CoT is still very new and a lot of people wont have it yet. There's a thread just below this one for discussions of the book which specifies that it cotains spoilers. Any other posts in threads about the new book should come with a spoiler warning to be fair to those who haven't had a chance to read it yet. WH and previous have been out more than long enough to not bother doing that with of course.

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Whitewinds
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posted January 30, 2003 10:54 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jak Shadow:
quote:
Originally posted by Tam al'Moff:
[Cut for *SPOILER*]. IMHO it would be just as easy to do a mail shirt as it would to do a breast plate.

Um, dude, careful of *SPOLIERS* as don't forget CoT is still very new and a lot of people wont have it yet. There's a thread just below this one for discussions of the book which specifies that it cotains spoilers. Any other posts in threads about the new book should come with a spoiler warning to be fair to those who haven't had a chance to read it yet. WH and previous have been out more than long enough to not bother doing that with of course.

All of this is getting a bit far afield from my original question: Does anyone have any suggestion on how to stat the substance? Hardness and hit points for the material, special qualities, like that. Not as armour, just as regular things, like plates, cups, goblets, etc.
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JosephKell
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posted January 30, 2003 11:28 AM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
your 250 hardness is a very good start! Anything that can do more than 250 damage deserves to mess up the stuff! (I can't even think of anything that can do that much!)

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted January 30, 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
All of this is getting a bit far afield from my original question: Does anyone have any suggestion on how to stat the substance? Hardness and hit points for the material, special qualities, like that. Not as armour, just as regular things, like plates, cups, goblets, etc.

I would call it indestructible, plain and simple. I seem to remember someone (a Black sister when Nynaeve captured Moghedien the first time?) using a rod of balefire in a museum that had lots of cuendillar items in it. Did it say something then about the effects of balefire on heartstone? I don't have my books with me.

Apart from possibly balefire, I would consider cuendillar unbreakable. The weakening of the seals I see more as corruption through the Dark One's touch rather than overcoming hitpoints or hardness. The taint corrupted and weakened the seals from within.

Woe betide the poor fool who gets a cuendillar plate hurled at his head by an angry woman....

On a slightly different note, how would you treat weapons made out of cuendillar? Power Wrought +3, unbreakable? The weapon would have to be masterpiece first, of course....

[edit: learn to spell...]

[ January 30, 2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Heron_Marked_Blade ]

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aleshandre
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posted January 30, 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Frankly, for the sake of it being used for common items, just consider it indestructable. if you intend to use it as armor, I'd add DR of 12 (but only for full plate or other full coverage chainmail) and no crits (except with blunt weapons against chainmail). In all cases the only way we've seen it destroyed is by the Dark One. If used in a partial coverage, add DR of 6, unless you're using called shots in which case, DR 12 is appropriate for the covered location. Also if in partial configuration, crits are possible if dismemberment is an option in your campaign. [Wink]

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Shadowkiller
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posted January 30, 2003 11:49 AM      Profile for Shadowkiller      Edit/Delete Post
Heartstone is indestructable. They say this multiple times in the book. Any force at all used against it causes it to become stronger. Any channeling into makes it stronger, hitting it makes it stronger. They say this but nobody even incorperated it.

Then you go further to say that just because it is made from one material, it makes it harder to hit someone. Ok, maybe cuendillar leather would but its not like the cuendillar suddenly makes you harder to hit. Most people dont hurt someone through armor in the first place, its all about hitting the places that arent covered. Even in 3rd ed DnD, a Mithril shirt does not make you harder to hit then normal chain shirt, its lighter and has fewer restrictions. If anything, thats what cuendillar would do. Plus you would never need to repair it (The same as power wrought swords never dulling). In 3rd ed, magic covers the holes and this is why its harder to hit someone when the armor is magical.

In the end, the books say that cuendillar is indestructable and cuendillar armor would not protect you any better then normal armor. Feel free to disagree, I'm just stating the facts as I see them.

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Melriken
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posted January 30, 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for Melriken   Email Melriken    Edit/Delete Post
um, lets see here...
Hardness: N/A
Hit Points: N/A
Heartstone is indestructable, anything made of it fuses instantly so inorder to make a multi-piece object you would need to bind the pieced together with a different substance. Weaves of the one power that are directed against or come into contact with heartstone are unravled and thus it is immune to thier effects. Weaves of the True Power (the darkone's power) are rumored to affect the substance as normal, however this is as of yet unconfirmed.

as for heartstone weapons and armor, well usually I would just say they are indestructable, do not need to be sharpened or polished. a suit of chain would need to be made half of normal metal and half of heartstone, a suit of plate would need leather straps and metal rivits to hold it together. In any case I view heartstone as a ceramic like material (just very thin and strong) and thus you would need to put a lot of other stuff into plate armors to get the pieces to slide against eachother correctly. I would make the armor +2 and grant medium fortification, you can still get crited, but it is a lot harder to do. The armor would also be indestructable obviously. Weapons would be +1 if small, +2 if medium, +3 if any larger size. Weapons would also be idestructable.

hmm, I like this, I think I am gonna write up a weave for creating it and send that off to the netbook they are making... Is anyone else submitting to the netbook? I can't wait to see the final product.

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aleshandre
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posted January 30, 2003 11:59 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
*****spoiler******
In CoT, when the cups fused together, 2 girls were linked and attemting 2 cups simultaneously. There may be a key in that. Also, the result of the chain being changed to cuedillar is not known, it may be in segments still; after all, Egwene is very strong with earth. [Wink]

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Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
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JosephKell
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posted January 30, 2003 12:02 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Balefire divides on Cuendillar like water on a wall. (Mmmmmmmm Cuendillar Tower Shield... Cuendillar Volvo...)

[ January 30, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

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Jak Shadow
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posted January 30, 2003 01:04 PM      Profile for Jak Shadow   Email Jak Shadow    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
*****spoiler******
In CoT, when the cups fused together, 2 girls were linked and attemting 2 cups simultaneously. There may be a key in that. Also, the result of the chain being changed to cuedillar is not known, it may be in segments still; after all, Egwene is very strong with earth. [Wink]

*SPOLIERS*

Actually we DO know what happened to the chain, check the link...

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Eagle Prince
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posted January 30, 2003 01:17 PM      Profile for Eagle Prince   Email Eagle Prince    Edit/Delete Post
You could make heartstone chainmail, it would just take awhile because you'd have to do each link individually, instead of instantly transmuting the entire shirt. Same with field plate, it's already different pieces hooked together with leather and buckles/etc.

The way I remember it, power-wrought steel was described a few times as being unbreakable (althought it's already been proven that it can somehow be destroyed, as well as heartstone); cuendillar I remember it only saying that anything that tried to destroy it made it stronger.. never unbreakable, just that it made it stronger. So I stand by same hit points as steel (for obvious reasons), hardness of 40 and all damage absorbed by the hardness gives it the same number of temporary HP for 24 hours. Hmm.. I can remember first reading Eye of the World, and thinking the way to destroy heartstone would end up being somehow attacking it in a way that you weren't making a direct attempt at destroying it. But I was probably just reading too much into the wording.

So from there, heartstone armor: must be made of (nearly) all metal. Light gets +3 enhancement bonus w/ light fortification (25%), medium gets +4 enhancement w/ medium fortification (75%), and heavy gets +5 enhancement w/ heavy fortification (100%). Weapons: tiny/small +3 enhancement (anything smaller not meaningfully effected), medium +4 enhancement, large or bigger +5 enhancement.

Finally, hearstone made by saiden is black, hearstone made by saidar is white.

[edit] Forgot the balefire/OP part. Anything that grants you an armor bonus that is made of hearstone, you still get to keep against touch attacks.

[ January 30, 2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Eagle Prince ]

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aleshandre
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posted January 30, 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Just being nitpicky here, but the word is saidin, not saiden. The last half of the word is din meaning brother, whereas; saidar ends with dar meaning sister. I still haven't figured out the meaning of the prefix sai, but I belive that it is either related to strength or power. I think that the most likely meaning is power, making the words compounds meaning literally power of sister and power of brother. Ofcourse alantin also means brother, but as Loyal said, it is very formal. We can deduce that alantar would be the same form of the word sister.

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted January 30, 2003 05:27 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
I still haven't figured out the meaning of the prefix sai, but I belive that it is either related to strength or power. I think that the most likely meaning is power, making the words compounds meaning literally power of sister and power of brother.

Any similarity to the sa in sa'angreal? Perhaps in this case it indicates a greater degree of power? (power [emphasis on high degree])'(angreal) What does angreal mean? "Item"?

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aleshandre
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posted January 30, 2003 08:13 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Sa from sa'angreal is related to sai in saidin/saidar, but it is derivative of sai, not the other way around.
I'm not sure what angreal means, though I belive it has a strong reference to focus possibly focal point, or concentration.
There is actually much that is left in grey areas in even the little that we have.
for example cuedillar is derivative of cuebiyar which means heart, and it appears that dillar means stone or rock, however; it still leaves much to be interpreted. Like the fact that Shae'en m'taal means stone dogs, but which word truely means stone and which dogs. If we knew which the word of greater importance was in the name, then we would know the answer, because the m' prefix means the and specifically denotes importance (like in Machin Shin - The Wind of Black and Mandhi - The Seeker). I would presume that stone would have the greater significance, and that the plural would be in dogs, which would make it Dogs of The Stone which has implications of meaning that we can only speculate on (like the one going through my mind now Dogs of the Stone of Tear - they who would take the Stone). This being the case, how do dillar and taal relate? Does one mean rock, or is heart stone really the true interpretation? I suspect that dillar does not truely translate as stone or rock, but this leaves the question as to what it really means. [Big Grin]

[ January 30, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: aleshandre ]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

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