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Author Topic: The Book of Saidin
Trollen
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posted April 10, 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for Trollen   Email Trollen    Edit/Delete Post
A little while ago i posted an idea about a book that allows a wilder to level up as an initiate without a tutor, heres my suggestion:

Book of Saidin
Activation: Carry
Affinities: None
Size: Tiny
Weight: 3 lbs
Occurrence: Unique

During the breaking a few male aes sedai feared that if saidin ever was cleansed, there would be no one who knew how to properly controll the source, so this book was made.

This book grants +5 to Knowledge(Arcana) and Knowledge(Age of Legends) and allows the channeler to level up as an initiate.

The book also contains 10 +1d10 common weaves, 6 +1d4 rare weaves, and 1d2 lost weaves (never balefire)

To learn a weave you must make a Knowledge(arcana) check with a dc of 30 + weave level. Only one weave can be learned a week, and the channeler must spend at least 1 hour a day for 4 days practicing the weave. Every day roll a consentration check 15 + weave level, if the roll fails even once, the channeler must wait untill a new week starts before he can try again. If he succeeds he learns the weave. You can only learn weaves if you planning on leveling up as a initiate at the next level.

If the channeler wants to level up as an initiate, he has to practice the excercizes writting in the book for at least 1 hour a day untill he has trained for a total of 1 hour/level he wants to level up to. So if a channeler wants to level up to level 6, he must study the book for 1*6=6 hours. Note that the level is the total level, not the intitiate level. So a level 4/5 wilder/initiate and a level 8/1 wilder/initiate would both have to study for 10 hours.

(I edited this post to add the changes suggested below)
What do you guys think?

[ April 10, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Trollen ]

From: Bergen, Norway | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sharn_Penndroen
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posted April 10, 2003 12:54 PM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
First of all, I don't think that I would ever have a WoT spellbook in my world at all. It just don't feel right in the atmosphere of schools like the White tower and the Black tower where you have to be trained to be an initiate. But if you are just set on putting this in your campaign you should consider changing the following things.

1) The name doesn't work for me a little too blah. I would change the name to something like The Book of Saidin.

2) You list the Occurrence as Unique, but in the description you say that the Aes sedai made "books" plural. So which is it. Only one book then it is unique. If there are even a couple it should be Rare.

3) I think this is just a typo. When listing the weaves contained in any given Book, you say,"The book also contains 10 +1d10 common weaves, 6 +1d4 rare weaves, and 1d2 rare weaves (never balefire)." Don't you mean to say 1d2 lost weaves. I can understand why they wouldn't put balefire in there as they all decided to quit using it during the War of Power. I think that was a good touch.

I guess that it sounds okay. You would probably have to playtest it to make sure that you made it sufficiently hard to learn a weave. I would also make the wilder make some kind of a roll to start going up as an initiate. The point is, studying this book should take up a major part of their life. The one benifit of being a wilder is not being tied to a tradition. All other initiates are tightly controlled. They have certain rules to stick to. It defines who they are. For this individual to be able to advance as an initiate his study should be so great that it to permeates his being just like an Accepted or Dedicated.

Don't let this player have the best of both worlds.

--------------------
A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

From: Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted April 10, 2003 01:49 PM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
I generally agree with Sharn, but I wanted to add that if I for some reason allowed this in my game, I definitely wouldn't grant the character the new Affinity and Talent that normally comes with this transition. That's a specific benefit of the personal training they receive, to my mind.

--------------------
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From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trollen
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posted April 10, 2003 02:00 PM      Profile for Trollen   Email Trollen    Edit/Delete Post
Ok, heres the new version

Book of Saidin
Activation: Carry
Affinities: None
Size: Tiny
Weight: 3 lbs
Occurrence: Unique

During the breaking a few male aes sedai feared that if saidin ever was cleansed, there would be no one who knew how to properly controll the source, so this book was made.

This book grants +5 to Knowledge(Arcana) and Knowledge(Age of Legends) and allows the channeler to level up as an initiate.

The book also contains 10 +1d10 common weaves, 6 +1d4 rare weaves, and 1d2 lost weaves (never balefire)

To learn a weave you must make a Knowledge(arcana) check with a dc of 30 + weave level. Only one weave can be learned a week, and the channeler must spend at least 1 hour a day for 4 days practicing the weave. Every day roll a consentration check 15 + weave level, if the roll fails even once, the channeler must wait untill a new week starts before he can try again. If he succeeds he learns the weave. You can only learn weaves if you planning on leveling up as a initiate at the next level.

If the channeler wants to level up as an initiate, he has to practice the excercizes writting in the book for at least 1 hour a day untill he has trained for a total of 1 hour/level he wants to level up to. So if a channeler wants to level up to level 6, he must study the book for 1*6=6 hours. Note that the level is the total level, not the intitiate level. So a level 4/5 wilder/initiate and a level 8/1 wilder/initiate would both have to study for 10 hours.

From: Bergen, Norway | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 10, 2003 03:52 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
This is definitely a powerful item, and there should be a major aspect of the plot worked around it. Also since it was written by men just beginning to go mad, there could be some strange things in there. You could make the character test against his madness to avoid falling into delusions or something like that, and make him do this every level. Also I think the time required for training should be much longer. It takes a long time to train with a tutor, and it should take even longer with a book.
Very cool idea.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted April 10, 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Okay, Well first I think that to allow a channeler to level up as an Initiate is way!!!! too much. Certainly much more than a book could provide, considering that an Initaite gains quite a few feats compared to the Wilder because it is assumed that within the structured environment, she is able to absorb more from her teachers and peers.

While I do hold to the idea of a channeler being able to learn a weave from a discription, as we have several examples from the book. Moraine with Balefire (it is presumed that she learned from reading some ancient text), Damer Flinn with Healing Stilling (from Logain's discription), and finally Egwene from the discription of Moghy) although the last two are discriptions rather than reading, at least with Damer he was trying to duplicate something from saidar.

I like the mechanic that you have set up for it, but it seems to me that there are a great many weaves contained within one book, when it should probably contain 1 or 2 at most. The rarity of the weave should have less to do with the amount of paper it takes up as the complexity would.

Now I might be jumping to conclusions here, but allowing a channeler to claim the Initiate class without having to obey strictures set forth by that tradition smacks of munchkinism. The power of the Initiate class is balanced by the control over which that tradition has over you. Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Atha'an Mier, Ash'aman.....these all place rules over what a channeler is allowed to do. While a Wilder gains less in the way of feats and eventually weaves, they are free to as they please. This is one of the strengths of this class, and to take that away is to take away the uniqueness of that class.

--------------------
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sharn_Penndroen
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posted April 10, 2003 04:06 PM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
Xythlord makes the point that I wanted much better than I did. Why wouldn't everyone go try to get an Aes sedai to bond them as a Warder. I mean, heck, you get all those abilities and access to one of the best PrCs in existance. Well not everyone wants to be bonded to an Aes sedai. Some people want to be free spirits. Mat for instance. Heck most people don't want to have an Aes sedai tell them what to do their whole (long) life. The same case with initiates. In all cases they are bound to a certain set of rules and traditions that they must keep or be removed from their tradition. Wilders are free to do as they please. That is a very strong benefit. What you are creating is a super channeler. All the benefits of an initiate's training with none of the restrictions. Initiates don't just practice for a couple of hours a day. They LIVE their practice. They have been practicing for years before reaching Initiate level 1. For initiates channeling isn't something that they can do, it IS WHO they ARE. That is the major distinction between an initiate and a wilder and that is the reason that they have access to more weaves and more bonus channeling feats.

--------------------
A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

From: Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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Member # 133451



posted April 10, 2003 05:22 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
This is all true, but I think certain disadvantages could be added to the use of the book to make it work. It is a powerful item, and many enemies might hunt the bearer, taking away his freedom to travel (except in disguise). Don't give up on an idea with such plot possibilities just yet.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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JosephKell
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posted April 10, 2003 05:28 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Ewww Channeling Spellbook!

--------------------
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-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
-If your character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook...
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...you might be a Munchkin.

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Whitewinds
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posted April 11, 2003 09:20 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
Ewww Channeling Spellbook!

Actually, this is a bit of a sore point with me: People who insist that channeling is totally unlike anything else and can never be learned by experimentation and practice, never written down, etc. Channeling is a skill, like any other. You can learn woodworking from books, you can learn weaving from books, you can even, to a degree, learn gymnastics and martial arts from books, so why not channeling?
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Steve Russell
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posted April 11, 2003 09:39 AM      Profile for Steve Russell   Email Steve Russell    Edit/Delete Post
Ok im finally going to jump in on this. I agree with Xythlord (big suprise there) This is pure I don't want to deal with the problems of the setting. (yes it is a bummer you have to wait till book 6 to be able to be an initiate, Tough! the wheel weave as the wheel wills)

But since you are going to use it anyway. please create some type of theme appropriate to the setting for this book. The Red Ajah has been hunting for this book for 3000 years and are attempting to destroy it. Wise Ones, Windfinder will hand it over. How did the book survive for 3000 years "keeping" Make the book difficult to hide. maybe 4' by 4' since it probably was written in a stedding the book would be Ogier size. Maybe the Ogier have it in a stedding being the only people who would not destroy the book but they guard it closely and would hunt down any who stole it.

Whitewinds said
quote:
Martial Arts from books
First I study 2 different forms of martial arts Jujitsu and Wing Chun (and a little tang soo do) Have been since I was 12 let me tell you a little something Martial Arts is intuative not technical you can read all the books you want and practice the technique but if you don't get in a real fight with a real opponent you never learn what techniques actually work and what techniques work for you (some never will work for you)

Because the book never tells you the guy your fighting is not only bigger faster and stronger but he knows how to fight too.

The problem with learning from a book rather than from experiance is that you know how to do it but you don't do it.

Actually when I really think about it this is how i equate the one power. if you try to think about it in logical terms it does not work. The One power is more intuative than learned.

--------------------
I have a reading lesson with the Lady Riselle. She lets me rest my head on her bosom while she reads to me.
-Olver

Please visit and review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace Book.

From: dayton ohio usa | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Whitewinds
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posted April 11, 2003 10:06 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Russell:
Whitewinds said
quote:
Martial Arts from books
First I study 2 different forms of martial arts Jujitsu and Wing Chun (and a little tang soo do) Have been since I was 12 let me tell you a little something Martial Arts is intuative not technical you can read all the books you want and practice the technique but if you don't get in a real fight with a real opponent you never learn what techniques actually work and what techniques work for you (some never will work for you)

I agree entirely, that's why I said "to a degree." Though I personally view channeling as closer to woodworking or needlecraft: You have instructions, you have materials, you have tools, if you take the time and effort to study and practice you will eventually acquire the skills. Granted, channeling's a bit more dangerous, but the principle remains.
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skyman
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posted April 11, 2003 06:31 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is pure I don't want to deal with the problems of the setting.
I don't know what the motivation for the book was, but I think it doesn't have to be used as a tool to beat the setting. The storyline aspects you mentioned and many others can make this a useful story device, and not too overbalancing. In fact if the game doesn't take place during the books the Book of Saidin could be used to start an new male channeler tradition, which could be a cool story.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted April 11, 2003 07:26 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Except for the fact that their has not been a tradition of channelers besides the Ashaman since the breaking. They are feared and hounded when they do show up and eventually caught and gentled. The only ones who have any kind of following have been the False Dragons.

Furthermore, think back to Mazrim Taim's reaction when Rand told him that some of these men he had at the Farm wanted to become channelers.

--------------------
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 12, 2003 10:58 AM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I tend to play games either in mirror worlds or many Ages ago when I'm not playing in the book timeline. This allows for almost any variation on the setting.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 13, 2003 04:54 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
Book's where written in the past to pass down knowldge of skill's, history's and etc. The book can
have than weave cast on it that can enable it to last
than long time. I would also allow it to make you than first level initiate only.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
galadgawyn
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posted April 15, 2003 05:42 AM      Profile for galadgawyn      Edit/Delete Post
First I think it is a cool idea. I wouldn't let characters use it for the most part but, I can see several scenarios where it would work. For example some of the False Dragons were really powerful. How did they get that way with no one to teach them? maybe one of them had this book.
You could easily reduce the power (as several have suggested) but, in the right context I don't think that is neccesary. As it is I think it is very powerful, maybe as much as the Bowl of the Winds, and I think you need to treat it that way. The Bowl was hard to find and there were a lot of people trying to get it and willing to kill for it (forsaken sent gholam etc.). As far as learning goes, I think it is a mix between logic and intuition which varies from channeler to channeler. Egwene seems to be more methodical and able to figure things out where as Rand is not really sure what he is channeling half the time. That doesn't really matter though because I assume this is a ter'angreal (which explains how it survives 3000 yrs.) and we have a couple examples in the books of ter'angreals granting knowledge - Rand in the pillars in Rhuidhean and Mat gaining memories (along with skills and abilities) from the Aelfinn. So maybe this book is not just words on a page but, implants memories of the previous men channeling.
Finally I think that maybe you should have to channel into it to activate it. The Male Aes Sedai probably knew that if certain people (female channelers) got their hands on it, it would be destroyed. To protect it, this book normally looks like a book about cooking, history, plants, whatever and only when the activating weave is channeled does it transform to the Book of Saidan. As added protection, only after a male channeler holds the book for a certain amount of time does the book impart the knowledge of how to activate it. Also the learning would be a combination of the memories and the writing and, since it would be in the Old Tongue that would be another challenge for most male channelers. Those are my ideas, hope they help.

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Vardelith
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posted April 15, 2003 09:45 AM      Profile for Vardelith   Email Vardelith    Edit/Delete Post
I really like the ideas that galadgawyn put forth for making it fit the setting more!

To add to that I would maybe actually make the book a part of a pair or set. This book could be the introduction! Reduce the amount of knowledge that it imparts to maybe just a couple of levels, and only with a person studying it for quite some time.

I like the idea of having it give the person memories from the creator of the book as a way of imparting the knowledge on how to use the One Power, due to the fact that the creator was probably going mad at the time his memories could be tainted as well, the user of the book would have to make extra madness checks whenever a memory was imparted.

I think it should play out like the jedi holocron's from Starwars. THey only impart knowledge fitting to the level of the player, if your not strong enough, you can't access all of the holocron. I think this book should also be like that, a player can't just absorb the entire knowledge set in the book at one time with a couple of GOOD rolls. They would have to hang onto the book (no small feat) long enough to level up with it!

Actually, why not have the book impart knowledge only when the player DOES level up! make it so that the player gains a small chunk of experience from it's use at the beginning of each level, and have it impart a random skill, feat or weave, based on how long the player has had the book. If the player already has what is given they wait till next level. The knowledge granted is ALWAYS a channeling skill, feat or weave. And don't forget, have the player role VS madness. hehe!

You could even make it a book usable by both men and woman, that would make it very well sought after. And Super Dangerous to keep on you! And I agree, it should be bigger, so making it harder to hide! not 4x4 like suggested earlier, but big! or at least heavy! [Wink]
I know my thoughts are a little fragmented, but I think someone will get the gist of it! [Razz] I know as this item evolves here in this thread, I get more and more ideas on how to torture my group with it! HEHE!

Vardelith

From: Medicine Hat, Alberta | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sharn_Penndroen
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posted April 15, 2003 10:17 AM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
Fine it is a ter'angreal that grants channeler feats and skills and weaves. I still don't think that the person should be allowed to level up as an initiate. What tradition would this person belong to? That is one of the defining characteristics of an initiate. I think that the suggestions made would fix the problem. If the reason that a person wishes to take levels in initiate, I'm assuming that they are doing it for the bonus channeling feats. If they are getting random channeling feats upon leveling up then that should give them some of what they want. I think that either way you go, be it memory transfer, or knowledge from learned from writing, it should NOT allow the person to go up as initiate.

Rand al'Thor has the memories of Lews Therin. I sincerly doubt that Lews was a wilder, but Rand certainly is. Rand doesn't go up as an initiate because he has Lews's memories. Why? Because he doesn't belong to a channeling tradition.

--------------------
A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

From: Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 15, 2003 06:26 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Rand al'Thor has the memories of Lews Therin. I sincerly doubt that Lews was a wilder, but Rand certainly is. Rand doesn't go up as an initiate because he has Lews's memories. Why?
Because the memories are random, unclear, and tainted with madness.
I think the book could mean the ressurection of an ancient channeling tradition. Looking outside of game mechanics, I see no problem with a plot built around something like this, and the gameplay can be balanced with ideas presented above.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
galadgawyn
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posted April 17, 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for galadgawyn      Edit/Delete Post
Because this book was specifically designed for teaching, I would think that the memories would be more structured like the Aiel ones. As Trollen says in the item write-up, the male Aes Sedai made this to teach how to properly controll the source and, from their viewpoint in the Age of Legends this could include codes of conduct, behavior, methods, laws, etc. and the characters would have to study that. I don't think there is a way to force them to follow that but, I think there would be strong motivation to after studying it so much. While they don't have all the restrictions of the initiate, they also don't have all the benefits like the power, support, and prestige of the White Tower, Wise Ones, etc. behind them. Besides what's the point of fighting for and gaining a powerful item if you don't get a nice advantage?

Personally, I would greatly increase the amount of time you had to study and practice the exercises, especially for the first level of initiate, because it seems the hardest part is breaking into the new way of thinking and acting.
Because they are still somewhat on their own, you could restrict the leveling up as initiate to one level for every level of wilder.

I am not sure how the checks for learning a weave work. You have to succeed with a knowledge check and then a concentration check? at the same time?
a new knowledge check for each week? I would like a little clarification on that. Also it seems the dc for knowledge is too high (should be 20 + weave) and the concentration too low - maybe 15 + weave for common, + 2x weave for rare, and 3x weave for lost.

I also like the idea of madness being involved somehow like Callandor having the flaw.

If you don't want to allow them to gain initiate levels thats fine but, I think Mat becoming an expert rider, fighter, and commander which would normally take a lot of time, training, and practice shows its possible. You don't let just any character walk through the twisted red doorways but, in the right context it can make for a very cool story a.k.a. Robert Jordan's.

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