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Author Topic: Oath Violation?
Arr MiHardies
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posted September 15, 2002 10:07 AM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
Heres a question. There is an aes sedai in my group who was made damane and rescued. The group later incounters a group of seanchan. The Aes Sedai cant fight back because she knows she is not in danger of her life. They want her alive. now. her warder is a channeler. could she link with him, with him leading the circle and doing all the attacks, and still be obeying the oaths?

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You might be a king...
or a little street sweeper...
but sooner or later...
you dance with the reaper...
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From: Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WB
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posted September 15, 2002 11:35 AM      Profile for WB      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Arr MiHardies:
Heres a question. There is an aes sedai in my group who was made damane and rescued. The group later incounters a group of seanchan. The Aes Sedai cant fight back because she knows she is not in danger of her life. They want her alive. now. her warder is a channeler. could she link with him, with him leading the circle and doing all the attacks, and still be obeying the oaths?

"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of the defense of her own life, or that of her Warder, or that of another Sister."

If the Seanchen get her Warder and find that he can channel, they will kill him. If they try to take her, his duty is to defend her and they will kill him for resisting. She is defending the life of her warder. I don't see it as breaking the oath so I would have no problem with her linking and taking part in the attack.

If she still saw it as breaking the oath, she could still use the One Power to delay and hinder the enemy from attacking the party. Hardened air around weapons, fog banks, false walls, etc. would all be fine. Remember, it's all a matter of perception. If she is not trying to injure or kill them, is she really attacking them?

[ September 15, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: WB ]

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WB

From: USA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arr MiHardies
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posted September 15, 2002 02:12 PM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
Well, she is a green, all she really has are damagin weaves, with few exceptions. and chances are the seanchan wouldnt be able to find out the warder can channel. so unless they fought back, their lives wouldnt be in danger as long as they swore the oaths. but there was no way the green would allow herself to become damane again. so they have to fight to keep the green free, but they cant fight witout creating the danger to their lives in the first place.

--------------------
You might be a king...
or a little street sweeper...
but sooner or later...
you dance with the reaper...
-----------------------------
professional D20 Character Sheets, NPC Sheets, and DM screens
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From: Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
dscrank
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posted September 15, 2002 07:26 PM      Profile for dscrank      Edit/Delete Post
I say let the player try to explain the character's reasoning around the Oaths. As long as the Aes Sedai can convince herself that she's not really breaking the Oaths, let her. If you don't think the reasoning is sound, or if you don't think she really believes it, then exact a penalty. It's a judgement call, but Aes Sedai have been skirting around the edges of breaking the oath for a long time. It should be dangerous, but not impossible.

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-Donald S. Crankshaw

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Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted September 15, 2002 07:53 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
I think that regardless of if or if not the warder can channel, he will defend his Aes Sedai's life. In any case the Seanchan will try to kill him. I have yet to here of a damane wuth a warder. So I think she has just cause to use the Power to protect him. (or why bother linking, just have her act defensively, and the male channeler whoop on them...

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I have gone out to look for myself. If I should happen to return before I get back, please tell myself to wait.

From: The middle of nowhere....South Dakota | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted September 15, 2002 08:04 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Also remember as far as the 2nd oath goes, the Aes Sedai that accompanied Perrin to rescue Rand at Dumai's Well, actually entered battle in order to be able to use the One Power. It became a matter of self defense when they placed themselves within harm's way. Furthermore the weaves that they were using were not specifically designed to harm only one person, many of the Aes Sedai justified harming groups by identifying that entire group as trying to harm them.

Also remember that the Seanchan capture or kill Marath damane, if the Aes Sedai has no intention of ever being captured again, then that would leave only one choice for the Seanchan, necessitating the defense of her life.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted September 16, 2002 07:16 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Arr MiHardies:
Heres a question. There is an aes sedai in my group who was made damane and rescued. The group later incounters a group of seanchan. The Aes Sedai cant fight back because she knows she is not in danger of her life. They want her alive. now. her warder is a channeler. could she link with him, with him leading the circle and doing all the attacks, and still be obeying the oaths?

I think everyone has answered this pretty well. The Warder will move to protect her, and thus, will be attacked. She has every right to defend him. Now, watch out whether she let's it go too far.

Also, I could be remembering wrong, but I thought only women could lead a man-woman linking? I remember multiple comments to this end. Anyone else remember better?

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felicia
AKA Freya Culadin

From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted September 16, 2002 08:40 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Although the Corebook doesn't state it, according to the BBoBA, "In most cases either a man or a woman can lead the circle, but a woman must initiate the circle –and in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead."

So if the Aes Sedai's warder could also channel, then if they linked, he would be in control of the circle. Unless of course she linked with another sister first.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted September 16, 2002 09:52 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord:
Although the Corebook doesn't state it, according to the BBoBA, "In most cases either a man or a woman can lead the circle, but a woman must initiate the circle –and in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead."

Ah, 'initiate the circle,' that was it. Thanks. [Smile]

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felicia
AKA Freya Culadin

From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 14, 2003 02:48 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
The oath I belive is to mean that no Aes Sedai is going round attack people or place with the one power
because she feel like it. Let say than innkeeper insult her, because he insult her she cannot channel
fireball when she leave to burn down the inn will be against the oath. But it she use the one power to have his pant falldown in forent of his customer will
most likely be not breaking the oath. If she doesnot want to be than damane against useing the one power to avoid that state isnot breaking the oath.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moon-Hawk
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posted April 14, 2003 05:52 AM      Profile for Moon-Hawk      Edit/Delete Post
Back to the original question, can an Aes Sedai linked with a male channeler harm people with the power. The oaths constrain action; if you try to do something that violates an oath, you are prevented. When the Aes Sedai initiates the link, certainly no one is being harmed, no violations there. One woman and one man in a circle means the man must control. The Aes Sedai no longer has any control over what happens. She can not channel any of her own weaves, she can not use ter-angreal that require channeling, and she can not break the link. The one person leading the circle is the one person in total control. Some of the forsaken talk about this, although it escapes me who. So the oaths can not restrict her. The male channeler can use both halves of the power to wreak whatever destruction he wants, until such time as HE decides to break the link. If two Aes Sedai were linked with a man, and one of the Aes Sedai were controlling the circle, then the oaths would constrain her use of both halves of the power. It's "Never to use the One Power as a weapon...", not "Never to use Saidar as a weapon...", so no tricky loopholes there.

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I've learned too many systems. Sometimes I even forget which system is the REAL world uses. Uh-oh.

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Whitewinds
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posted April 14, 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
Frankly, the Oaths are very nearly meaningless in my experience; the Aes Sedai can't break them, but they can and do wriggle and twist around them so much that the Oaths don't constrain them all that much - witness the hash they make of the First Oath, to speak no word which is not true. And in the books, Moiraine channels fireballs at a raken, it's obviously Shadowspawn. She doesn't test it to be sure, she just attacks. Even though the rider will be hurt too, the Third Oath doesn't restrain her at all. And even the second can be gotten around, to make no weapon for one man to kill another: Make a weapon that won't kill a man, or that a man cannot use. And I've seen all of these exceptions and loopholes used in online games.
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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted April 14, 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
And in the books, Moiraine channels fireballs at a raken, it's obviously Shadowspawn. She doesn't test it to be sure, she just attacks. Even though the rider will be hurt too, the Third Oath doesn't restrain her at all.

Eh?

Cite, please.

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Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
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http://www.thehumblest.net/
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From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 14, 2003 03:15 PM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sophiathegreen:
The oath I belive is to mean that no Aes Sedai is going round attack people or place with the one power
because she feel like it. Let say than innkeeper insult her, because he insult her she cannot channel
fireball when she leave to burn down the inn will be against the oath. But it she use the one power to have his pant falldown in forent of his customer will
most likely be not breaking the oath. If she doesnot want to be than damane against useing the one power to avoid that state isnot breaking the oath.

First it than Innkeeper say to than woman who is than Aes Sedai get your ugly face out of my inn.
It would break the oath for her to cast fireball at the inn to burn it down as she leave. Use than weave to have his pant falldown with other round that not break the oath as no real harm is done to the man. The speak no word that is not true does it mean formal under than oath like at a trail to tell
the trueth. An it she tell something which she think is the trueth but turn out to be false did she liar or told the trueth of she saw it.

The second oath might mean to not give men of one kingdom powerful weapons to fight each other and weaking each other so the dark fiend can win.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sharn_Penndroen
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posted April 14, 2003 08:23 PM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
Moon Hawk,

The forsaken that you are trying to think about is Sammel. In book 6, he suggests to Graendal that they link. She of course doesn't, because after she initiated the link, she would lose all control. Sammel would have complete control of the One power and he would decide when to end the link.

Back to the question at hand, Aes sedai and warders are NOT easy targets to be captured. Otherwise, people would always capture them and hold them for ransom or something. They would just say, "Don't worry, I'm not going to hurt you." And then go grab them. Honestly, if an aes sedai felt threatened her warder and herself would fight for their lives regardless of their intentions.

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A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

From: Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted April 15, 2003 06:58 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
Our best example to answer this question lies with the Aes Sedai who are made damane. The Aes Sedai are still held by the Three Oaths, yet we get no indication that the Sul'dam have any trouble using them as weapons against their enemies. (well, besides the Aes Sedai's natural stubbornness) If the forced a'dam link held the Aes Sedai to their Oaths, the Aes Sedai would be of no use to the Seanchan as damane.

So, yes, a linked Aes Sedai who is not a circle leader can be 'used' to perform offensive weaves. At least, that's the impression I get.

[ April 15, 2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: Freya ]

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felicia
AKA Freya Culadin

From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted April 15, 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Uh, actually an Aes Sedai cannot use the One Power as a weapon, except in the last defense of her life or.......etc. Even Aes Sedai damane cannot be forced to use the One Power this way. Suldam have to make the damane cast the weave, but otherwise yes you are right, the leader of a circle can cast whatever they feel like irregardless of what the linked members want, after they have accepted the link into the circle.

This is from the Wotmania interview with RJ

Question: How is it possible for Aes Sedai who have taken the Three Oaths to become damane and use the One Power as a weapon?

RJ: They can't us the One Power as a weapon, not in any conventional sense. This presents some problems for the Seanchan, but then, damane are used for more than just weapons. And from the Seanchan point of view, at worst, an Aes Sedai who has been collared is one less marath'damane running around loose and doing the horrible things that their history tells them such women inevitably do. Remember, Seanchan history records a time under Aes Sedai rule, when no one could go to sleep at night with the certainty they would wake in the morning and Aes Sedai took whatever they wanted and killed anyone who crossed or opposed them. To the Seanchan, just removing these horrors from the board is a win.


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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 16, 2003 02:11 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
Also I donot think these oath are mean to be written in stone. I than reading the second book the second oath carry out total. To make no weapon which use the
one power to be use by man against man. Rand power-wrought blade is over 3500 year old at least.

Also I read in the second book one of the Aes Sedai was loseing the will to fight the Sul'dam command to go against the three oath.

[ April 16, 2003, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Sophiathegreen ]

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fyatuk
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posted April 16, 2003 05:15 AM      Profile for Fyatuk      Edit/Delete Post
Actually she was loosing the will to fight against the suldam period. Basically it was meant to show that she really was becoming damane and not a captured Aes Sedai. Even when the Aes Sedai is broken, there is no way to make them break the 3 oaths, but you can trick them around it (as the Aes Sedai do to themselves in the stories). This is shown is one of the books where no matter how much she was punished, Pura (Ryma?) could not be made to lie about the color of a scarf.

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Fyatuk Loth
Tai'Shin
Weaver of Dreams

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drothgery
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posted April 16, 2003 02:21 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
And in the books, Moiraine channels fireballs at a raken, it's obviously Shadowspawn. She doesn't test it to be sure, she just attacks. Even though the rider will be hurt too, the Third Oath doesn't restrain her at all.

Eh?

Cite, please.

Which is to say that it wasn't Moiriane, but several AS in Elayne's retinue definitely did this just after the Bowl was used.

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Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
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