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Author Topic: Can WoT replace D&D?
JosephKell
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posted April 29, 2003 05:34 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
It was the "2001 Annual Dragon Special" it has a guy with an axe and wolf (or was it 2 wolves) with him (it is Perrin) on the cover. It doesn't have much in the way of new game material, just 6 new "fast-track characters" (which is nice, because each has a short history, but it isn't much), and it has a bunch of critters to throw into the game (animals...).

But my vote for if WoT could replace D&D: No.

Here's why: there is a firm story line in place (I am cool with being overshadowed, it is just that there is a firm story that happened regardless of the PC's actions) and the continient seems pretty small when you have traveling (compared to D&D's plans). And there are only so many (like 7) published adventures out (and none are on the way). The fan made ones are greatly appriciated, but they often don't clearly mark the suggested levels (spending 10 minutes skimming an adventure to locate the suggested level is a pain when you are trying to find an adventure for the GM). The world is great and the published Prestige Classes are sufficient, but the lack of adventures makes it nearly impossible. Star Wars had the same problem, adventures just didn't seem to come out fast enough (mainly because there is no OGL to allow other companies to right Star Wars adventures).

Converting D&D adventures to WoT is a pain because they aren't balanced for that. I recently started getting Dungeon Magezine (mix of short, medium and long adventures, varies from 2-20 pages) and it is SO nice. Too bad there isn't a similar magezine for Wheel of Time.

But Wizards doesn't have a lease to do more Wheel of Time stuff, so it can't replace D&D.

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Steve Russell
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posted April 29, 2003 06:09 PM      Profile for Steve Russell   Email Steve Russell    Edit/Delete Post
I am finally going to chime in on this because I have deep feelings for both Dnd and WoT

As a gaming system both are what the GM and the Players make of it. Period a good GM can make a great dnd game.

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skyman
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posted April 29, 2003 10:08 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I have never had trouble writing adventures for WoT. In fact I have more trouble writing adventures for DnD because I don't have the same familiarity with the setting, and I don't much like premade adventures. But you're right Steve either can be good with a good GM.

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"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Gadodel
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posted May 03, 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for Gadodel   Email Gadodel    Edit/Delete Post
Wow.

Thanks for all of the replies.

I have a lot to think about.

Once I get the book, I suppose I will have a lot of questions.

Well, atleast I know where I can go to get them answered!

[bow]

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lostone
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posted May 03, 2003 09:02 PM      Profile for lostone      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, I feel I should respond to something. I've noticed under several topics people have mentioned that they don't like the idea that the history is already written, the PCs are really background characters or unsung heroes that support Rand and the other novel characters without them knowing it. This is a fine idea, but I've taken my game a different way.

Here's the quick and dirty: (Keep in mind I have not read Crossroads yet, but none of my players have either so it doesn't matter, most are only up to Shadow Rising at this point) In my world, Rand did seal the prison, but the Dark One was more prepared this time than with Lews Therin, and Rand only got a rough patch on the Bore. Advance the timeline 50 years, the patch is already weakening. Adjust the world some (Elayne is queen of Andor, the Seanchan have taken a significant foothold but have been fought to a standstill, Perrin has resurrected Manetheren, and Lan and Nynaeve have rebuilt Malkier since the Blight has withdrawn. The group each has a dragonmarking on them, like Rand's dragon but with multiple heads (a Hydra). As the group plays on, they will find out that the Dark One was prepared for Rand, and was going to sever Rand's thread in the pattern, Rand had anticipated this (due to all the alternate realities of his life when using the portal stones, where he kept hearing "I win again, Lews Therin.") and when he realized the Dark One was attempting it, Rand split his thread into the pattern into many, and spliced them to other threads (the group). So the group has to pick up where Rand left off, the pattern is in disarray, the group is sometimes minor taveren (a fraction of Rands strength seperately, but a match for it together) and sometimes not when the Pattern shifts. Since the Pattern is in disarray, there have been few prophecies about the next Dragon Reborn, and some may be wrong.

It's an odd way to go about it, I know, but it seems to be making for some excellent roleplaying, especially since a couple players are in the dark because they have only read a few of the novels so far (once they got into the world they started reading the novels, so they can get more of a feel for the history of this world).

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skyman
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posted May 03, 2003 11:08 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I've thought about campaigns like that before, except where Rand died at the beginning. It could make for some fun possibilities.

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"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kamilis
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posted May 06, 2003 09:08 PM      Profile for Kamilis      Edit/Delete Post
A quick note to Gadodel.

You have heard a lot of good stuff about Wheel of Time on this forum and I agree with almost all of it, but you should at least here one bad thing about it. The magic system is way over powered, it just yells out, "Please abuse me" there are so many ways you can have a lower level channeler take out much higher level people. Basically any human that isn't a channeler. Thats the only thing I would see you maybe having a problem with.

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted May 07, 2003 06:27 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kamilis:
You have heard a lot of good stuff about Wheel of Time on this forum and I agree with almost all of it, but you should at least here one bad thing about it. The magic system is way over powered, it just yells out, "Please abuse me" there are so many ways you can have a lower level channeler take out much higher level people. Basically any human that isn't a channeler. Thats the only thing I would see you maybe having a problem with.

Which should only be a real problem if you play the game outside of it's original setting. The social stigmas regarding channelers are quite strong, and underplayed by many GMs, IMO. If you've got an "abusive" channeler, then they should become hunted and persecuted nearly as much as if they were a False Dragon

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From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kamilis
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posted May 09, 2003 01:06 PM      Profile for Kamilis      Edit/Delete Post
That be a great solution if it were possible in every instance. For example, if the player kills every one that saw him channel or his friends don't care then you can place any sort of repercussion from society because they don't know about it. Then there is the problem if it's a woman, there is no social stigma then, they can just channel and people won't say anything to there face or attack them because of it (unless it's a White Cloak) Even if they become hunted, with just a few weaves of moderate power one person can stop any number of people attacking them, which is one of the big problems. Then there is the argument that says well in the books they new to moderate them selves, this is true. So the logical thing to do is make the players do the same thing. Problem is I'm not going to tell a player how to make his character act, thats just down right rude. Face it, weaving is just very, very powerful.
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Freya
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posted May 09, 2003 01:35 PM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kamilis:
Then there is the argument that says well in the books they new to moderate them selves, this is true. So the logical thing to do is make the players do the same thing. Problem is I'm not going to tell a player how to make his character act, thats just down right rude. Face it, weaving is just very, very powerful.

Noone is arguing that weaving is not powerful (even very powerful). The argument is that the power is supposed to be moderated by social limitations, stigmas, and over-reactions of people who have been taught for thousands of years to fear channeling (and by extension, channelers).

If groups are not willing to realize those 'limiters' exist, or downplay them like Skwid mentioned, then yes, channelers will do whatever they want all the time, and yes, they will be powerful.

If you don't want to tell someone how to run their character, fine. But, if they are throwing around lightning and fireballs in public, then a good GM would have the townspeople fear them, turn them out of their inn, perhaps form a mob, perhaps inform the Children of the Light (if locality is correct), so on and so forth. If there are no consequences, then of course, the channelers will do whatever they want with impunity.

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From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted May 09, 2003 06:06 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
The way I run the game, it's just not safe to channel much unless you're an Aes Sedai or acting under the direct supervision of one. A female wilder who throws fireballs around willy-nilly is going to find herself facing a circle of stern looking Sisters as quickly as any man would (and, excepting Pevara, the Reds in the novels were the incompetent ones in my book -- just because you can get away from Liandrin does not mean you can get away from Pevara). A Windfinder or Wise One being too overt while in the Westlands will be smacked down by her own Tradition because they don't want the Aes Sedai coming down on them like a ton of bricks.

And it's not like initiates of the White Tower get off any easier. Aes Sedai must follow the Oaths, and abusive levels of channeling will even leave an Aes Sedai spending a few decades on a farm. And the Children are hostile to all Aes Sedai and can be found anywhere.

[ May 09, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: drothgery ]

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Dave Rothgery
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From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gadodel
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posted May 09, 2003 06:17 PM      Profile for Gadodel   Email Gadodel    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kamilis:
A quick note to Gadodel.

You have heard a lot of good stuff about Wheel of Time on this forum and I agree with almost all of it, but you should at least here one bad thing about it. The magic system is way over powered, it just yells out, "Please abuse me" there are so many ways you can have a lower level channeler take out much higher level people. Basically any human that isn't a channeler. Thats the only thing I would see you maybe having a problem with.

Ah! Thank you for this.

I was wondering about the differences in degrees of power between the two systems of magic.

[Cool]

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From: Lincoln, Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coriantis
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posted May 10, 2003 04:13 AM      Profile for Coriantis      Edit/Delete Post
From what I read here about the differences between D&D and WOT, I must say: doesn't Dragonlance fulfill the same needs as WoT?

- DL is strongly story-based, it even used a SAGA system after ad&d!
- It has a very strong theme centered around epic struggles between good, evil, and the balance inbetween (neutrality). Thje quest for the artifact "dragonlance" to fight back the evil armies gives the players a thorough goal (there are other plots, but compare it to "the one ring" in LOTR).
- The stories are about friendship, love, sacrifice, loss..., not about level & wealth.
- It has amazing novels written by seasoned authors (Weis & Hickman) who are well known in the fiction genre. The books have an impact & feel not unlike LOTR.
- It has a great world! One that's smaller than our own and doesn't resemble Earth, one that is vastly developed and allows play in different ages, where the particular situation will have great consequences for the future.
- Its magic is different & unique (binded to the three moons). There are periods where gods & magic were absent. Magic isn't less powerful, but it's much rarer & more mysterious than FR for ex.
- The new DL campaign setting comes out this summer with more support than WoT (but less than FR I guess, which is good).

So, wouldn't DL fulfill the same needs? It is different from WoT but they resemble in feel, and DL is more classic fantasy with elves & dwarves who are absent in WoT if I'm right.

Second question: do you really need to have read the novels to run WoT as a successful GM and not miss too much?

[ May 10, 2003, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Coriantis ]

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drothgery
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posted May 10, 2003 10:35 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gadodel:
quote:
Originally posted by Kamilis:
A quick note to Gadodel.

You have heard a lot of good stuff about Wheel of Time on this forum and I agree with almost all of it, but you should at least here one bad thing about it. The magic system is way over powered, it just yells out, "Please abuse me" there are so many ways you can have a lower level channeler take out much higher level people. Basically any human that isn't a channeler. Thats the only thing I would see you maybe having a problem with.

Ah! Thank you for this.

I was wondering about the differences in degrees of power between the two systems of magic.

[Cool]

Though in that case, there isn't much of one. A D&D cleric is probably a more powerful character than a WoT initiate of equivalent level, and at high levels, wizards (and to a lesser extent, clerics) have some huge advantages over channelers because of item creation and high-level spells that do things that are different in kind than any channeler can do. There's just more imbalance in WoT (if you downplay the social restrictions on channeling) because "magic" is concentrated in channelers for the more post part; there are virtually no magic items, no minor magic users, few/no "combat power-up for the warrior-types" weaves, and no arcane/divine split.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
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http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

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Sgiathach
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posted May 11, 2003 07:54 AM      Profile for Sgiathach      Edit/Delete Post
When thinking about replacing D&D with WOT, you should draw a clear dividing line between the _Engine_ (read: rules) and the _World_ (background).

I, for instance, had a look at the WOT because I prefer low-magic campaigns, and wanted to check out the WOT Defense system (check out the Armour vs. Defense thread for discussion). I've come to the conclusion that I like this better than wearing a plethora of magic items to boost your AC, so I'm adopting it.

So far, I haven't had a look at the WOT magic system. But when experienced WOT players already say it's overpowered and can be abused, it's definitely not for me.

One big difference between D&D and WOT is the classes. Most WOT classes resemble a D&D class, but are usually changed in some way:

Barbarian -> similar, not identical to Algai
Fighter -> Armsman
Rogue -> Wanderer
Ranger -> Woodsman (without spells)
Sorcerer -> Wilder (probably)

The other classes have no direct counterpart. And then there's no racial diversity. So I'd allow a couple more classes and races, depending on the setting. As for the WOT world, it doesn't impress me much.

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drothgery
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posted May 11, 2003 08:21 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sgiathach:
So far, I haven't had a look at the WOT magic system. But when experienced WOT players already say it's overpowered and can be abused, it's definitely not for me.

I think it's pretty hard to design a low-magic-item game where magic users don't end up with a substantial power edge of non-magic users in the long run (high levels in a class & level game).

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coriantis
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posted May 11, 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for Coriantis      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coriantis:
From what I read here about the differences between D&D and WOT, I must say: doesn't Dragonlance fulfill the same needs as WoT?

- DL is strongly story-based, it even used a SAGA system after ad&d!
- It has a very strong theme centered around epic struggles between good, evil, and the balance inbetween (neutrality). Thje quest for the artifact "dragonlance" to fight back the evil armies gives the players a thorough goal (there are other plots, but compare it to "the one ring" in LOTR).
- The stories are about friendship, love, sacrifice, loss..., not about level & wealth.
- It has amazing novels written by seasoned authors (Weis & Hickman) who are well known in the fiction genre. The books have an impact & feel not unlike LOTR.
- It has a great world! One that's smaller than our own and doesn't resemble Earth, one that is vastly developed and allows play in different ages, where the particular situation will have great consequences for the future.
- Its magic is different & unique (binded to the three moons). There are periods where gods & magic were absent. Magic isn't less powerful, but it's much rarer & more mysterious than FR for ex.
- The new DL campaign setting comes out this summer with more support than WoT (but less than FR I guess, which is good).

So, wouldn't DL fulfill the same needs? It is different from WoT but they resemble in feel, and DL is more classic fantasy with elves & dwarves who are absent in WoT if I'm right.

Second question: do you really need to have read the novels to run WoT as a successful GM and not miss too much?

What do you think of this? Or should I start a different thread about it?

[ May 11, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Coriantis ]

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skyman
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posted May 11, 2003 03:52 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
Much of this is true, but the worlds are also very different and it all depends on what you want. One of the main things I like about WoT is that it isn't classic fantasy with elves, dwarves, etc. If you want start a new thread comparing WoT with other settings, or just with Dragonlance.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Sophiathegreen
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posted May 16, 2003 02:27 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
Channeler can get too powerful because magic items which can help than non-channeler against channeler are very rare. I than tranfer from computer to than book the item creation feast as my printer doesnot work. In than C&S game one person player than commoner was put to death for refuseing to hand over than Chivalry sword to the knight who was in charge of than dugeon exped. Medival soceitry have weapon control law on weapon and armours. Wear aromous by any character inside than walls town of cities was consider than hostile act while wearing weapons in general wasnot consider hostile act. First it was recoige that travel in the world outside was damgerous that certain class of people have the right to wear armour while traveling in the wildness but once in a wall town or cities or castle they where acept to goto to than inn or their guest room in than castile to remove their armous or than secuce storage place to place their heavy armous. They where allow to keep sleath weapon on their person. It your intent was peaceful you donot need to wear heavy armour while bear arms
do you. Some serf's where grant the right to bear chivalry weapons by the local lord but they didnot wear then everyday. Merchant and other traveler where given the right to wear short sword to potect
against bandiets.

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bobbi
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posted May 21, 2003 09:16 AM      Profile for bobbi      Edit/Delete Post
NO COMMENT
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MT
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posted May 21, 2003 11:03 AM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coriantis:
Second question: do you really need to have read the novels to run WoT as a successful GM and not miss too much?

It certainly helps to have read the books because you know how the world works and how the cities work and how channeling works, etc. on a nuance level.

If you wanted to run a game without reading the books, I would suggest just reading _Robert Jordan's Guide to the Wheel of Time_. It came out about five years ago, but it's like an almanac to the world. It describes how everything works and how everyone works, including the history of the world, etc.

On top of that, you can "almost" read the books by reading through the WoT Encyclopedia. It's a good resource as well:

http://www.photeus.com:8090/~ewot/index.html

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Freakwave
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posted May 21, 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for Freakwave   Email Freakwave    Edit/Delete Post
You don't have to buy the new D&D 3.5, it is fully compatible with 3.0 and you can get it free as SRD.

D&D is aimed at game balance, that means, wizard and fighter are equal at all levels. Of course this doesn't always happen, level 20 wizard CAN kill lvl 20 fighter easily, but then again, wizards only have limited resources(they can only cast so many spells). Antimagic fields and similars things can also thwart the balance to the fighters.

In WoT this is not the case, as channelers outgrow armsmen and others quite fast, around levels 5-8 I believe. Also the lack of magic in form of common items makes the non-caster classes weaker in WoT.

So, in short: WoT is a good game when it comes to playing in the WoT world, but generally, it is no match for D&D.

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Lord_of_the_Seven_Towers
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posted May 21, 2003 01:14 PM      Profile for Lord_of_the_Seven_Towers      Edit/Delete Post
The thing is the RPG has to make some attempt to come close to the books. In that nobody messes with channelers (except white cloaks). Though in a game i totally 0wnz0r3d this black aes sedai that tried to channel against me. Yarg i am killer Warder king.

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Gadodel
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posted May 23, 2003 01:57 PM      Profile for Gadodel   Email Gadodel    Edit/Delete Post
I appreciate the unbiased analysis that many folks have given me, thanks a bunch!!! [Cool]

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Ualaa
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posted May 30, 2003 01:28 AM      Profile for Ualaa      Edit/Delete Post
D&D whether 3.0 or 3.5 edition is the game mechanics. WoT is one very good setting for the D&D game, but it uses the D&D mechanics. Its kind of hard to replace the mechanics of D&D with a system that uses the D&D mechanics.

WoT makes an excellent setting for epic stories. There are very few stories available in literature with the scope and story of WoT.

The biggest drawback to using WoT as a setting is that the whole setting is built around the events of the novels. If the iconic characters from the novels are around in your setting, they can easily overshadow the player's characters. Its hard for "The Dragon Reborn" to not steal some of the spotlight.

As long as you can ensure your characters are the spotlight of the stories you tell, the setting rocks.

Its low magic, which makes magic more powerful because there is less of it in the setting. As long as it is not abused, it adds effectively to the setting. That's something to be watched for, but others in this thread have given lots of information on that topic.

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~ Ualaa

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