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Author Topic: Asha'man modification (thoughts?)
Mao
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Member # 3827



posted October 29, 2002 02:03 PM      Profile for Mao      Edit/Delete Post
I've been thinking about a modified Asha'man that specialized in combat-based magic like fiery sword and such, possibly things similar to 'haste' or 'buffing' spells from D&D.

I was kind of bothered by Asha'man not having 3/4 BAB to begin with, as they were meant to have sword training (simply being proficient is kind of silly, since they get NOTHING to do with swords in the prestige class).

The main things I'd do are tweak some of the asha'man abilities - get rid of resolve/improved resolve, iron will and improved combat casting/improved offensive control (leaving the basic varieties only).

Raise BAB to 3/4, allow defense bonus to stack with Armor Compatibility (assuming you have 3 levels of armsman), and possibly give armor compatibility at 5th or so instead of great fortitude. Possibly throw in extra talent: Travelling in there somewhere.

Maybe cut their 'casting level progression' to 1/2/4/5/7/8/10 (similar to various D&D mage prestiges that don't always get caster level bumps).

Anyone have anything like this? Possibly comparing to the D&D spellsword, or some such? Or simply a more sword-worthy Asha'man variant?

-Mao

From: Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melriken
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posted October 29, 2002 05:13 PM      Profile for Melriken   Email Melriken    Edit/Delete Post
well, I think that the Asha'man PrC doenst have the higher BAB because the Asha'man in the books avoid learning more about swords than they have to. Rand requires that they learn to use them, but Taim shows what he thinks of it, and most of them don't *really* learn to use them...

I think you could definatly make a new PrC that has connections to the black tower, and learns better to use the Sword while channeling at the same time, just call it something new rather than a revision of the Asha'man class.

an idea is: Servent of the Dragon (in the old tounge)

as for new weaves, I would stay away from haste or stat boosting weaves as that is DnD and was stayed away from in WoT

you could do something like fireshield, stone skin, I have been thinking of making a new weave that grants Weave Resistance (a new ward against the one power)

personaly I would be more inclined to make an armsman who had a few levels in wilder or initiate and a bunch of levels in blademaster. but your idea does have merit

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The prior post is in no way intended to represent the thoughts and/or opinions of the author. Read at your own risk.

Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mao
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Member # 3827



posted October 29, 2002 08:39 PM      Profile for Mao      Edit/Delete Post
I'm generally against the whole stat buffing, yeah. Haste, however, I think would be interesting, or an ability that's similar (a variant of multiweave that lets you weave and attack in the same round, maybe). Self only, and possibly a class ability rather than a weave.

On the whole though I'd figure an asha'man would be a better swordsman than an Aes Sedai (the only book difference is that Asha'man get longswords and aes sedai get quarterstaves or cudgels. not really all that different). Wanderer or noble BAB would definitely be fitting.
----------------------------

I do like the idea of a more martial oriented prestige class, something Rand might have been himself (since he certainly doesn't fit blade dancer as per the WOT RPG--it's just a clone of Kensai/Weapon master, which is totally le lame). The whole fiery sword wielding jedi type would be the gist of the class.

I'm going to throw a prototype up here real fast.

Servant of the Dragon (tenative name)

Prerequisites--
Gender: Male
Base Attack: +6
Skills: Concentration 7 ranks, Composure 7 ranks, Weavesight 3 ranks.
Feats: Weapon proficiency (sword), Combat Casting or Skill Emphasis (Concentration).
Affinities: Any two
Talents: Elementalism, Travelling

code:
Lvl   BAB  F  R  W  Special
-----------------------------------------
1 +0 +1 +1 +1 Sword & Sorcery
2 +1 +2 +2 +2 Presence, Blade of Power (+1)
3 +2 +2 +2 +2 Bonus Feat
4 +3 +2 +2 +2 Armor Compatibility(medium)
5 +3 +3 +3 +3 Blade of Power (+2)
6 +4 +3 +3 +3 Bonus Feat
7 +5 +4 +4 +4 Improved Initiative
8 +6 +4 +4 +4 Blade of Power (+3)
9 +6 +4 +4 +4 Bonus Feat
10 +7 +5 +5 +5 Superior Weapon Focus

Def Bonus: As Asha'man (+0/0/1/1 etc)
Rep bonus: As Asha'man (1/0/1/0 etc)

Spellcasting:
The Servant of the Dragon advances in spellcasting levels as if he were a multiclassed initiate/wilder. His combined caster levels (previous channelling class and SotD levels) stack and are compared to the Initiate weaves per day table to determine weaves per day. He gains bonus weaves as per his previous class(es), and his DC is set by the highest channelling class he had previously (if Initiate is his highest class, his DCs are based off of intelligence).

Sword & Sorcery (Working on a better name:P)
As a full round action the character may combine a single attack action with the casting of a single weave, the casting level of which cannot exceed his applicable stat bonus (int for initiate, wis for wilder). If his intelligence is 18 and he is an initiate, he can cast a 4th level weave combined with a single attack action.

Presence:
The character has an aura of implacability which grants him a +4 bonus to intimidate checks.

Blade of Power:
While embracing Saidin the character's weapon acts as a power wrought weapon with the listed bonus.

Armor compatibility:
Armsman/Warder/Servant of the Dragon defense bonuses all stack when wearing medium or lighter armor.

Bonus Feat:
The character may choose a feat from the following list: Extra affinity, Extra talent, Tie-off Weave, Multiweave, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved initiative, Fame, Weapon Focus, Combat Casting, Power-heightened senses, Mental stability, Iron Will and Great Fortitude.
-------------------------

Anyone have any thoughts?

The requirements for talents are open, possibly, but in general I think the 'servant of the dragon' ought to be able to travel--all useful Asha'man were able to do so, else they were just mooks. And elementalism is a no brainer.

-Mao

[ October 31, 2002, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Mao ]

From: Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melriken
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posted October 29, 2002 09:39 PM      Profile for Melriken   Email Melriken    Edit/Delete Post
didn't list a reputation, and Mind over Body is a FRCS feat that gives you your int modifier to HP at 1st level instead of con, and a bonus HP for every Metamagic feat you take.

I would also use Heroic Surge instead for the extra stuff

Offensive Surge - The Servent of the Dragon gains the Heroic Surge feat, however if the Servent has not already cast a weave in the round he activates this ability he must use the extra action to cast a weave. If the servent already has the Heroic Surge feat track uses per day independantly.

I would also add weapon focus to the pre-requisits (as superior focus is the level 10 ability) or replace one of the feats with it

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The prior post is in no way intended to represent the thoughts and/or opinions of the author. Read at your own risk.

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Mao
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posted October 29, 2002 10:15 PM      Profile for Mao      Edit/Delete Post
Rep would be as Asha'man, and yeah.

And I'll call it something else, but heroic surge is much beefier than the proposed ability but is always active. Heroic surge would let you cast a weave and take a full attack action (pretty harsh if you've got a tied off fiery sword or something). I'll give that some thought, though. Hmmm. Thanks for the input.
Oh yes, and I'll swap the 3rd or 6th level feat to Weapon Focus, and remove that from the bonus feat list.

With those changes, barring a change to surge/etc, does it look balanced? Too powerful?

I was thinking the BAB change and slightly better saves were compensated for by lacking all sorts of spiffy asha'man abilities, but I'm not a hundred percent sure.

And, what do you think of the power wrought blade while embracing the source idea?

-Mao

From: Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lord Schpungus
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posted October 30, 2002 04:23 AM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
I think if you're going to allow them to cast weaves and attack in the same round, maybe you should push that back to a level at which the earliest takers will just be getting two attacks per round. Also, there probably ought to be a bonus to casting on the defensive (i.e, not getting hit with attacks of opportunity while casting in melee). Other than that, it looks really nice.
From: The Global Community | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted October 30, 2002 05:33 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
MaoAnd, what do you think of the power wrought blade while embracing the source idea?
I don't see why this would happen? Embracing the source wouldn't change the molecular structure or how the blade was made any...if anything, i'd say give them a +1 to hit/damage competance bonus to show how much more 'effective' being in the Void provides.

Also, the travelling talent requirement...while Ashaman who can't travel may be 'mooks', that doesn't change the fact that not every channeler is strong enough to handle a travel weave of any type. basically, i just don't like the idea of giving/requiring this talent. it may not be in the same league, but in my mind, it's a step or two away from requiring or giving the balefire talent. *shrug* that's just me though.

As far as the 'sword & sorcery' ability...you might want to limit the weaves cast to less than full-round casting times.

--------------------
felicia
AKA Freya Culadin

From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
tremerelord
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posted October 30, 2002 06:45 AM      Profile for tremerelord   Email tremerelord    Edit/Delete Post
I like it Mao!
quote:
I've been thinking about a modified Asha'man that specialized in combat-based magic like fiery sword and such, possibly things similar to 'haste' or 'buffing' spells from D&D.

I was kind of bothered by Asha'man not having 3/4 BAB to begin with, as they were meant to have sword training (simply being proficient is kind of silly, since they get NOTHING to do with swords in the prestige class).

Check out my Gaidin Sedai Prc also, I didn't include gender:female as prereq just because I had thought of your point about Ash Amon. TAsh Amon just aren't combat oriented enough. Taim trained them as weopons!
quote:
I would also add weapon focus to the pre-requisits (as superior focus is the level 10 ability) or replace one of the feats with it

I whole heartededly agree.
quote:
I think if you're going to allow them to cast weaves and attack in the same round, maybe you should push that back to a level at which the earliest takers will just be getting two attacks per round.
Good idea.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MaoAnd, what do you think of the power wrought blade while embracing the source idea?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see why this would happen? Embracing the source wouldn't change the molecular structure or how the blade was made any...if anything, i'd say give them a +1 to hit/damage competance bonus to show how much more 'effective' being in the Void provides.

Another good idea.
quote:
As far as the 'sword & sorcery' ability...you might want to limit the weaves cast to less than full-round casting times.

This is a must.
Prequisites should have something to do with abilites gained. Say you gave them a blink ability (Light forbid), then I would say make the Traveling talent a prereq, otherwise don't try and overbalance. Why combat casting or skill emphasis? There's a 2-4 difference there.
Overall I really like the ideas, good job on the Prc.

--------------------
I know you believe you understand what it is you think I said, but I'm not sure what you heard isn't what I really meant.

From: Niles,Ohio | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted October 30, 2002 07:43 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Freya:
quote:
MaoAnd, what do you think of the power wrought blade while embracing the source idea?
I don't see why this would happen? Embracing the source wouldn't change the molecular structure or how the blade was made any...if anything, i'd say give them a +1 to hit/damage competance bonus to show how much more 'effective' being in the Void provides.

I think an interesting one would be an ability that worked *only* with Power-wrought blades. Remember Rand channeling Power through matrices in his father's sword as he stabs it into Ishamael's breast in tGH? While I don't know that duplicating that would make sense, I rather like the idea of a stacked bonus on top of the PW...

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Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mao
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posted October 30, 2002 11:08 AM      Profile for Mao      Edit/Delete Post
To respond to a few comments:

1. The sword and sorcery ability is, if you'll read carefully, never going to grant you multiple attacks and a weave. As a full round action you can take one single attack action and one weave. That is it's like taking a full attack action, except you get one sword whack and one spell instead of a full iterative attack sequence.

2. The power wrought blade thing is meant to simulate mastery of combining the one power with force of arms. You bolster the power of your blade while maintaining the source, because that's what you learn to do (If you truly think about it, it's far more power-effective to tie-off a 2d12 fiery sword, but still--I think it's a pretty cool thematic power).

3. I've looked at the Gaidin PRC and while I definitely like the concept, I feel that it's quite a touch overpowered. It definitely ought to, given the abilities it gives (Spellpower anyone?) either be a very high level class, or be toned back sone. We must remember that there are no resistance items in WOT, so channellers being able to maximize their DCs as in D&D is much, much more dangerous. A 20 int channeller flinging an 8th level balefire with your greater weave focus will be DC 27 (a 20th level wanderer with 20 dex will only make that 50% of the time). Heck, a 6th level fireball will be DC 25 for 9d6+level with the weave thing. It basically makes you bloody well unstoppable.

The primary thing to remember when designing prestige classes is that magic items aren't the same as D&D, so certain abilities need to be paid close attention to. No con items means lower hit points, highly limited healing means people wander around injured a lot, no resistance items means people have low savingthrows.

4. If you are a channeler without a 14 in your primary spellcasting stat, you should maybe not be a channeler. 14 is all it takes to travel as a 7th level initiate, or I believe 6th level wilder. You can do it at an even lower level, if you've got lots of affinities or an angreal, maybe.

My 1 armsman/3 initiate male channeler has two affinities (spirit and fire) and a ta'veren affinity for air, and a +1 male angreal. At 5th level (1 armsman/4 initiate) i'm taking extra talent: traveling, and I'll be able to overchannel 1 level to skim and cast gateway on its own (it's spirit only, lowering it to 3, angreal lowers it to 2).

-Mao

From: Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
tremerelord
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posted October 30, 2002 07:21 PM      Profile for tremerelord   Email tremerelord    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We must remember that there are no resistance items in WOT, so channellers being able to maximize their DCs as in D&D is much, much more dangerous. A 20 int channeller flinging an 8th level balefire with your greater weave focus will be DC 27 (a 20th level wanderer with 20 dex will only make that 50% of the time). Heck, a 6th level fireball will be DC 25 for 9d6+level with the weave thing.
This is true, but when you compare it to what they would have without the class bonus, it's still DC 23 and 21 respectively. Not to mention the channeller in question would have an Int 20 (way high, Rand only has Int 16), all five affinities(otherwise Balefire would be cast at Lv 9 making the DC one higher anyway), a talent for balefire, and be at least level 18(Base Attack Bonus +4 in the Prereq makes a straight channeller Lv 8 before they could take any levels in this class, and 10 levels as per my revised version-toned down a little). So vs a 20th level Wanderer. 50% sounds about right, Lv 18 vs Lv20, excluding any abiltiy bonuses, feats, or what not. And if you have nothing with weave resistance then it's a useless ability there for you, oh well for ya! [Smile]
quote:
The primary thing to remember when designing prestige classes is that magic items aren't the same as D&D, so certain abilities need to be paid close attention to. No con items means lower hit points, highly limited healing means people wander around injured a lot, no resistance items means people have low savingthrows.

I would very much disagree there, armsman have better saves than a fighter and so on. The classes are balanced to themselves, not whether they have access to magic items or not. I think you're overanalyzing just a tad. The saving throws are every bit as good as D&D, especially considering WoT classes get a rep gain and Def bonus as well.
quote:
1. The sword and sorcery ability is, if you'll read carefully, never going to grant you multiple attacks and a weave. As a full round action you can take one single attack action and one weave. That is it's like taking a full attack action, except you get one sword whack and one spell instead of a full iterative attack sequence.

I think what everyone meant was making the weave count as an attack action type. Still make it full round for one attack and one weave, but don't make it available until they have 2 attack actions. [Big Grin] Great idea for an ability though, I can't wait to see your final version so I can introduce it in my campaign.

--------------------
I know you believe you understand what it is you think I said, but I'm not sure what you heard isn't what I really meant.

From: Niles,Ohio | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mao
Member
Member # 3827



posted October 31, 2002 02:14 AM      Profile for Mao      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tremerelord:

This is true, but when you compare it to what they would have without the class bonus, it's still DC 23 and 21 respectively. Not to mention the channeller in question would have an Int 20 (way high, Rand only has Int 16), all five affinities(otherwise Balefire would be cast at Lv 9 making the DC one higher anyway), a talent for balefire, and be at least level 18(Base Attack Bonus +4 in the Prereq makes a straight channeller Lv 8 before they could take any levels in this class, and 10 levels as per my revised version-toned down a little). So vs a 20th level Wanderer. 50% sounds about right, Lv 18 vs Lv20, excluding any abiltiy bonuses, feats, or what not. And if you have nothing with weave resistance then it's a useless ability there for you, oh well for ya! [Smile]

Rand's applicable channeling stat is his wisdom which is 19.
quote:

I would very much disagree there, armsman have better saves than a fighter and so on. The classes are balanced to themselves, not whether they have access to magic items or not. I think you're overanalyzing just a tad. The saving throws are every bit as good as D&D, especially considering WoT classes get a rep gain and Def bonus as well.

Armsmen get half ref save better than D&D fighters, and about half the bonus feats. I'll take D&D fighter any day, thanks [Smile] In D&D most characters get stat bonus items and resistance items, both of which can jack your savingthrows up /significantly/ (+8 total to a save from a +6 stat item and a +5 resistance item). Not to mention they can wish for permanently increased ability scores, and can cast spells that give them temporary stats or resistance bonuses.

The only reason armsman is comparable to other fighter types in WOT is that they get huge armor classes and no one else has any huge to hit bonuses as in D&D (no +6 str item, +5 swords or anything).
quote:


I think what everyone meant was making the weave count as an attack action type. Still make it full round for one attack and one weave, but don't make it available until they have 2 attack actions. [Big Grin] Great idea for an ability though, I can't wait to see your final version so I can introduce it in my campaign.[/QB]

Yeah, I actually agree with this. Think I will drop the multiweave prerequisite and raise the class BAB prereq to +6. (thus one of the optimal ways of reaching it is 3 armsman/6 initiate or so--or armsman 4/Initiate 4 at the earliest).

Will make the edits as I go here [Smile]

-Mao

From: Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


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