Author
|
Topic: Is it
possible to shield a linked person?? |
Blackdraman
Member Member # 112167
|
posted February 23, 2003 09:44 AM
Is it
possible to shield a linked person?
If so what would be
the consequences of shielding the leader of the circle? Or of
shielding the only man in a circle of 15?
Would love
any feedback and thoughts.
[ February 23, 2003,
09:56 AM: Message edited by: Blackdraman
]
-------------------- Continuealy
Searching, Blackdraman
From:
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Blackdraman
Member Member # 112167
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posted February 23, 2003 09:55 AM
Another
question. What about shielding damane and sul'dam? Would you
have to shield one or the other .....or
both?
-------------------- Continuealy
Searching, Blackdraman
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted February 23, 2003 11:47 AM
Shielding a
linked person should be possible, and would definitely break
the circel, which would probably be very bad for the other
channelers in the link. I'd suggest requiring all the
participants to make a Fort check as for overchanneling a
weave equal to the bonus the circle would normally give to see
how badly they're hurt. And if the leader was overchanneling
at the time, add the number of levels by which that person was
overchanneling.
As for damane and sul'dam, I think that
you'd need to shield the damane, since she's the power source.
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
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posted February 23, 2003 11:47 AM
You can
shield linked people as normal. No real consequence, ber
reducing the strength of the link, or (If its 13+ and involves
a Male, and you shield the male) breaking it up
entirely.
Damane and Sul`dam: Sul`dam are, of
course, channelers, but in most cases, they are at most
1st-level Initiates or Wilders. If you shielded the Damane,
the Sul`dam might not realize it, and use her own powers,
believing she were using the Damane. If you shielded the
Sul`dam, then, of course, she'd have no access to the source,
and couldn't use the adam to direct the Damane. Which means?
Since Sul`dams are very low level channelers, its incredibly
easy to stop them.. shield them, and the Damane is free, or
undirected. And they discourage free thought in their Damane,
so...
Basically, any army with at least 1 channeler in
it could shield all of the Sul`dam, tie off the weaves, and
make them have no power to access. And since the Sul`dam have
no idea they can only use Damane because they wield the power,
they'd have no idea how to counter
it.
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep! Not
just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
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Dortamur
Member Member # 63897
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posted February 23, 2003 03:57 PM
But to be a
Sul'dam doesn't involve actual channeling. It's just required
that the user be capable of channeling. They don't even need
to have the spark.
It's an interesting question though:
Does a Ter'angreal that can only be used by channelers, but
doesn't require actual channeling, still work if the channeler
is shielded?
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted February 23, 2003 04:07 PM
why would
someone shield someone other than the one that can actually
channel? To shield the sul'dam is probably easier, but that is
Meta-game thinking.
-------------------- Instant
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Melriken
Member Member # 48882
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posted February 23, 2003 05:39 PM
First let
me say that no one has seen this happen in the books, so
anything is just speculation.
Here is my
speculation: You can shield those in a link, however it is
harder, treat them as a level equal to thier actual level +
the weave bonus from the link. They are embracing the source
so dont forget that penalty. (this is because they have more
power going through them then normal). Further anyone in a
link that is shielded other than the leader does not remove
them from the link, however the bonus from the link is
determined as though any shielded members are not included.
Also anyone attempting to join the link can only join if they
could join if shielded member were not part of the circle.
Shielding the circle leader causes the link to collaps and
releases all members from the link. The circle leader may
attempt a reflex save to transfer control of the circle,
however they must make this attempt before saving against the
shield itself, and control is transfered regardless of the
success or falure of the normal save. Should a circle
collapse due to shielding of the circle leader all members of
the circle are stunned for one round as they udjust to the
loss of the circle.
but like I said that is just how I
would handle it.
-------------------- The prior post
is in no way intended to represent the thoughts and/or
opinions of the author. Read at your own risk.
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Blackdraman
Member Member # 112167
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posted February 24, 2003 08:26 AM
quote:
And they
discourage free thought in their Damane, so...
Not only that but the a'dam will not let the
damane do much of anything, and nothing involving channeling.
I speculate that it would act like a leash with out a sul'dam
in it.
quote:
To
shield the sul'dam is probably easier, but that is Meta-game
thinking.
Meta-game thinking it might be, but my players will
eventually come up with it own their own. And if I can not
come up with a honest, well thought out reason that it would
not work, I (in good conscience )would have to allow
it.
Also, why would shielding the sul'dam be easier?
She is linked to a damane, there for she is drawing on the
damane's power, even if
unconsciously.
-------------------- Continuealy
Searching, Blackdraman
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Marcus Gabriel
Member Member # 129371
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posted February 24, 2003 10:13 AM
one thought
about using this tactic against sul'dam. A damane is so
conditioned to her role, (especially ones from their homeland
) she would no doubt obey regardless of the sul'dam's ability
to enforce her orders.
this would somewhat reduce the
sucess of this as a PC tactic.
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted February 25, 2003 05:25 AM
I was
thinking on this last night and something occured to me. Even
if you did shield a Sul'dam it wouldn't make any difference
whatsoever to the damane. Like Dortamur said in his post, the
a'dam does not require that the person wearing it be able to
channel, just that they be capable of channeling. Remember
when Moghy was wearing the modified a'dam that Elayne made.
Nyn was able to control her channeling even though she wasn't
mad enough to channel a spark, she still had access to Moghy's
channeling ability.
I don't think that shielding a
Sul'dam would have any effect on the damane, except to single
you out for targeting next
round.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Dortamur
Member Member # 63897
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posted February 25, 2003 10:47 PM
Exactly!
And thanks for thinking of an a'dam specific example to
confirm the theory.
Still, I'm sometimes confused as to how the
a'dam link works. With Nyn & Mog, it was clearly Nyn doing
the weaving, using Mog's power. Mog could barely channel a
trickle herself, and so couldn't demo high-level weaves, even
if granted permission under their control.
Yet in other
instances it's described more as the Suldam directing and
commanding the Damane doing the work. ie; it's the Damane that
knows how to Lightning strike, not the Suldam doing the weave
through the Damane.
With her time as Damane, Egwene
grew stronger in certain talents, and learned new weaves and
new uses. That also implies it was her doing the weaving. Not
some Suldam just pulling power through her, controlling the
weave.
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted February 25, 2003 11:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dortamur: Exactly!
And thanks for thinking of an a'dam specific example to
confirm the theory.
Still, I'm sometimes confused as to how
the a'dam link works. With Nyn & Mog, it was clearly Nyn
doing the weaving, using Mog's power. Mog could barely
channel a trickle herself, and so couldn't demo high-level
weaves, even if granted permission under their
control.
Yet in other instances it's described more
as the Suldam directing and commanding the Damane doing the
work. ie; it's the Damane that knows how to Lightning
strike, not the Suldam doing the weave through the
Damane.
With her time as Damane, Egwene grew stronger
in certain talents, and learned new weaves and new uses.
That also implies it was her doing the weaving. Not some
Suldam just pulling power through her, controlling the
weave.
I think the problem was that 1) the a'dam might not
have been a precise duplicate of a Seanchan one, and 2) for
all her power and her quite formidable Healing talents, Nyn's
not a sul'dam. She was never trained in the use of an a'dam,
nor was Egwene.
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted February 26, 2003 04:48 AM
Also
remember that an a'dam is a forced link. The Suldam has to
"allow" the damane to channel, just like a real circle can
shift the focus to another individual besides the person who
first started it, although with the a'dam the control always
stays with the leash holder even when she is not herself
channeling. Nyneave was a fully accomplished channeler
(albight with a block), so she could use the a'dam to access
the full power on her own just like a normal Circle, without
needing permission to link in the first place. Suldam are not
trained to channel at all, period. So they don't "know" they
can channel and have to "let" the damane cast the
weaves.
And as a thread a little while back indicated,
this is why the Sad Bracelets (i.e. -the male a'dam) has two
braceletes and one collar.....because it takes two women and
one man to form a circle or the man is in charge (in the case
of a one man / one woman circle). This a'dam can allow one
woman to control a man, but she has to wear both bracelets.
And of course she will slowly go insane with him . Or at least she would before saidin got
cleansed.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Blackdraman
Member Member # 112167
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posted February 26, 2003 06:07 AM
But the
bottom line question on sul'dam and damane is does the sul'dam
loose direct (through the leash) control if she is shielded?
If she does, how would a captured Windfinder or Aes
Sedai or even a Wise One react if the sul'dam lost
control?
-------------------- Continuealy
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted February 26, 2003 07:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dortamur: Mog could
barely channel a trickle herself, and so couldn't demo
high-level weaves, even if granted permission under their
control.
Eh? Where do you get that? Moggy was at full power,
they just didn't let her do much for fear someone would
notice.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Lord Schpungus
Member Member # 111502
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posted February 26, 2003 08:03 AM
There's a
glow around people who can channel even if they're not
currently doing it. Moggy taught them the weave to disguise
one's strength in the Power first so they could have her walk
around Salidar without every Aes Sedai within eyeshot knowing
she was a Forsaken. I think it was just masking her strength
instead of choking the flow, though.
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Dortamur
Member Member # 63897
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posted February 26, 2003 05:03 PM
When Egwene
was a Damane, she could channel a trickle, even with no
suldam, although it made her feel ill.
I'm sure it was
also said that Mog couldn't show the others certain weaves, as
she could only channel a trickle - but my memory's not the
greatest. It also could've been a) a ruse by Mog to not show
them new stuff, or b) Nyn/El not giving her permission to
channel enough to demo them, for fear of her managing to do
something else.
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
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posted February 28, 2003 09:11 PM
Since an
A`dam can only be used by someone who can channel (They have
to have the spark. Basically, Sul`dam probably become
1st-level initiates at some point without realizing it) and,
if a Damane isn't linked to someone they can channel they can
only do insignificant things, and with great effort... This
means that if you shielded the Sul`Dam, the A`dam would stop
working, as the Sul`dam ceased being a channeler temporarily
(Remember, in several cases Shield and Sever were described as
being very very similar) and thus, the Damane would no longer
be able to be directed by her Damane, or capable of using
anything but most likely 0th level weaves. A player who
learned of the Sul`dam, and used the WeaveSight skill
successfully, might realize that the Sul`dam was a channeler
as well. If they learned what the A`dam was as well, this
would mean they'd know that without the Sul`dam at the leash,
the Damane couldn't hurt them.
Note: To anyone but the
Seanchan, it'd be easy to tell the Sul`dam were channelers.
They suffer a cultural bias. If a campaign involved the
Seanchan enough for the players to learn what the Damane
were... then a smart group could make Damane useless. Its much
easier to shield a 1st-level Initiate Sul`dam than a 10th
level Initiate
Damane.
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep! Not
just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
Undead Armies foundation, member 000 (Thats right, Not even
I'm a member)
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted February 28, 2003 10:21 PM
Except for
the fact that an a'dam does not work off channeling.
Furthermore, although a Sul'dam may eventually become a
dormant channeler, at first they have no ability whatsoever!
After some time, they learn to sense a female channeler, and
can even see the weaves....at first they can only do so while
wearing an a'dam with a damane. so it would be reasonable to
assume that although it requires someone with the spark to use
an a'dam, they are not actually channeling anything so
shielding them wouldn't do anything at all. A shielded Sul'dam
would have no loss in their ability to control a damane
because an a'dam does not rely on anybody but the damane to
have embraced the source.
-------------------- Only
two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and
I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 -
1955)
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jacob_stroh
Member Member # 130621
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posted March 04, 2003 01:28 PM
duloth
said:
"Since an A`dam can only be used by someone who
can channel (They have to have the spark. Basically, Sul`dam
probably become 1st-level initiates at some point without
realizing it)"
Did you forget about those who do not
have the spark but could be taught to channel. In fact we see
in the second book that Sul`dam in seanchan routienly go to
towns to test for the ability. those with the spark are all
eventualy found and leashed. They also let other girls put on
the braclets to see if they can 'feel' the damne. A sul`dam
would never have the spark Olny the ability to learn.
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
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posted March 04, 2003 02:02 PM
Just one
thing that counters it: The only people who can use A`dams are
those who can learn to channel, or can channel already.
Meaning? Ability to channel influences use of the A`dam. Even
if you can't actually channel anything, theres still that bit
there. Not bright enough for them to be a Wilder and for the
test to pick up..but maybe the only things that are ever
picked up are either Wilders or higher-level Initiates.
Low-level initiates can't be detected; not enough
spark.
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep! Not
just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
Undead Armies foundation, member 000 (Thats right, Not even
I'm a member)
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted March 04, 2003 04:17 PM
Or..... ANYBODY who can channel will be collared
while those who can be tought, but haven't yet can use the
a'dam. It isn't till much later that the Sul'dam are able to
sometimes see the weaves or know that a female can channel,
something any low level channeler can do. An a'dam only works
for somebody who can channel or learn to channel, it doesn't
work off of channeling so a new Sul'dam would not need to have
any classes that could channel.
I don't know which
thread it was on, but recently somebody mentioned that most
likely, Sul'dam have several levels of Expert, with older ones
have maybe 1 level of Wilder (with a block of cannot channel
without being complete -or attached to a damane). I thought
that this was an excellent way of portaying these
characters.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted March 04, 2003 10:20 PM
That was
me. Thank you.
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
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posted March 05, 2003 11:13 AM
"Anybody
who can channel, while those who can be taught, but haven't
yet"......
If they can be taught to channel, they can
already channel. The power is there, they just don't know how
to use it. Its like a muscle they haven't used. The difference
between those selected for Damane and those for Sul`dam is
that in the Damane, this 'muscle' is naturally strong enough
to be detected. But just because its weak, doesn't mean its
there.
In order to learn to channel, you must have the
ability to channel. You are born able to do it, but not
knowing how. In reality, even the Sul`dam probably use the
power in their own tiny ways, but never realize that they are
doing so, and its so weak nobody notices. The power isn't some
template you can add in life. You have it throughout your
life, whether its strong enough to use or not.
And the
pure and simple thing of it is... if the Sul`dam doesn't
either A: Draw power from the holder, or B: Require the holder
to use the power, then why doesn't it work for non-channelers
as well? Simple. It does one of those two. It has to, or else
Sul`dam would be unneeded, anyone could use it. So? This means
that cutting off access to the Power for a Sul`dam would make
her unable to use the A`dam, since the A`dam would either lose
its guidance, or lose its 'power' source. And, boom, the
Damane suddenly suffers the normal un-leashed
restrictions.
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep!
Not just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
Undead Armies foundation, member 000 (Thats right, Not even
I'm a member)
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted March 05, 2003 05:20 PM
First off,
I would like to share a little quote from book 2.
"I
have thought about it a great deal," Egwene said. "Thinking
was all I could do when they left me alone up here. Sul'dam
claim they develop an affinity after a few years. Most of them
can tell when a woman is channeling whether they're leashed to
her or not. I wasn't sure, but Seta proves it."
"Proves
what?" Elayne demanded, and then her eyes widened in sudden
realization, but Egwene went on.
"Nynaeve, a’dam only
work on women who can channel. Don't you see? Sul'dam can
channel the same as damane." Seta groaned through her teeth,
shaking her head in violent denial.
"A sul'dam would
die before admitting she could channel, even if she knew, and
they never train the ability, so they cannot do anything with
it, but they can channel."
"I told you," Min said.
"That collar shouldn't have worked on her." She was doing up
the last buttons down Egwene's back. "Any woman who couldn't
channel would be able to beat you silly while you tried to
control her with it." "How can that be?" Nynaeve said. "I
thought the Seanchan put leashes on any woman who can
channel."
"All of those they find," Egwene told her.
"But those they can find are like you, and me, and Elayne.
We were born with it, ready to channel whether anyone taught
us or not. But what about Seanchan girls who aren't born
with the ability, but who could be taught? Not just any woman
can become a - a Leash Holder. Renna thought she was being
friendly telling me about it. It is apparently a feastday in
Seanchan villages when the sul'dam come to test the girls.
They want to find any like you and me, and leash them, but
they let all the others put on a bracelet to see if they can
feel what the poor woman in the collar feels. Those who can
are taken away to be trained as sul'dam. They are the women
who could be taught."
quote:
Originally posted by Duloth: "Anybody who
can channel, while those who can be taught, but haven't
yet"......
If they can be taught to channel, they can
already channel. The power is there, they just don't know
how to use it. Its like a muscle they haven't used. The
difference between those selected for Damane and those for
Sul`dam is that in the Damane, this 'muscle' is naturally
strong enough to be detected. But just because its weak,
doesn't mean its there.
Fair enough, there are two types of channelers: those
that born with the ability and will channel whether they want
to or not -and are known as Wilders by the Tower and Damane in
Seanchan. The other is those that are born with the ability
but will never channel without being taught. These are the
majority of those at the Tower and are those that can become
Sul'dam.
quote:
In order to learn to channel, you must have the
ability to channel. You are born able to do it, but not
knowing how. In reality, even the Sul`dam probably use the
power in their own tiny ways, but never realize that they
are doing so, and its so weak nobody notices. The power
isn't some template you can add in life. You have it
throughout your life, whether its strong enough to use or
not.
The Sul'dam cannot use the Power at all unless they
learn to embrace the source. This is a very specific process,
that is described in detail throughout the books. They may
eventually gain the potential by associated with the damane
over a long period of time, to sense other channelers, to see
the weaves, etc, but they cannot channel a single thing
without embracing. This would also mean that they do not use
it in small things because then they would be seen by other
Sul'dam/damane when they glow.
Before you mention
wilders unconsiously doing these things, wilders also develop
a block to protect themselves, Sul'dam don't.
quote:
And the pure and simple thing of it is... if the
Sul`dam doesn't either A: Draw power from the holder, or B:
Require the holder to use the power, then why doesn't it
work for non-channelers as well? Simple. It does one of
those two. It has to, or else Sul`dam would be unneeded,
anyone could use it. So? This means that cutting off access
to the Power for a Sul`dam would make her unable to use the
A`dam, since the A`dam would either lose its guidance, or
lose its 'power' source. And, boom, the Damane suddenly
suffers the normal un-leashed restrictions.
The reason that an a'dam works is that it is a forced
link. It doesn't require the power because you just put it on,
unlike some other ter'angreal we have seen where you need to
channel into it. A Sul'dam could not channel into because she
has never embraced the source, remember she only feels
complete when she is with a damane who has embraced the
source. Otherwise she would feel the joy of saidar by
herself.
I could be wrong, its been known to happen,
but I think that my reasoning is pretty concrete on this. If
you have any evidence other than opinion, please provide the
quote and page number (either RPG or the Novels), and I will
be happy to look at it and revise my
conclusion.
[ March 05, 2003, 10:02 PM: Message
edited by: Xythlord
]
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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