Author
|
Topic: Can WoT
replace D&D? |
JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted April 29, 2003 05:34 PM
It was the
"2001 Annual Dragon Special" it has a guy with an axe and wolf
(or was it 2 wolves) with him (it is Perrin) on the cover. It
doesn't have much in the way of new game material, just 6 new
"fast-track characters" (which is nice, because each has a
short history, but it isn't much), and it has a bunch of
critters to throw into the game (animals...).
But my
vote for if WoT could replace D&D: No.
Here's why:
there is a firm story line in place (I am cool with being
overshadowed, it is just that there is a firm story that
happened regardless of the PC's actions) and the continient
seems pretty small when you have traveling (compared to
D&D's plans). And there are only so many (like 7)
published adventures out (and none are on the way). The fan
made ones are greatly appriciated, but they often don't
clearly mark the suggested levels (spending 10 minutes
skimming an adventure to locate the suggested level is a pain
when you are trying to find an adventure for the GM). The
world is great and the published Prestige Classes are
sufficient, but the lack of adventures makes it nearly
impossible. Star Wars had the same problem, adventures just
didn't seem to come out fast enough (mainly because there is
no OGL to allow other companies to right Star Wars
adventures).
Converting D&D adventures to WoT is a
pain because they aren't balanced for that. I recently started
getting Dungeon Magezine (mix of short, medium and long
adventures, varies from 2-20 pages) and it is SO nice. Too bad
there isn't a similar magezine for Wheel of Time.
But
Wizards doesn't have a lease to do more Wheel of Time stuff,
so it can't replace
D&D.
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
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Steve Russell
Member Member # 130579
|
posted April 29, 2003 06:09 PM
I am
finally going to chime in on this because I have deep feelings
for both Dnd and WoT
As a gaming system both are what
the GM and the Players make of it. Period a good GM can make a
great dnd game.
-------------------- I have a
reading lesson with the Lady Riselle. She lets me rest my head
on her bosom while she reads to me. -Olver
Please
visit and review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace
Book.
From:
dayton ohio usa | Registered: Mar 2003
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 29, 2003 10:08 PM
I have
never had trouble writing adventures for WoT. In fact I have
more trouble writing adventures for DnD because I don't have
the same familiarity with the setting, and I don't much like
premade adventures. But you're right Steve either can be good
with a good GM.
-------------------- "Death comes
sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One,
and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Gadodel
Regulator Member # 57798
|
posted May 03, 2003 04:16 PM
Wow.
Thanks for all of the replies.
I
have a lot to think about.
Once I get the book, I
suppose I will have a lot of questions.
Well, atleast I
know where I can go to get them answered!
![[bow]](Wizards_Com Boards Can WoT replace D&D (2)_fichiers/bow.gif)
-------------------- Got Modern?
"U
A" Hero?
From:
Lincoln, Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
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lostone
Member Member # 135656
|
posted May 03, 2003 09:02 PM
Ok, I feel
I should respond to something. I've noticed under several
topics people have mentioned that they don't like the idea
that the history is already written, the PCs are really
background characters or unsung heroes that support Rand and
the other novel characters without them knowing it. This is a
fine idea, but I've taken my game a different way.
Here's the quick and dirty: (Keep in mind I have not
read Crossroads yet, but none of my players have either so it
doesn't matter, most are only up to Shadow Rising at this
point) In my world, Rand did seal the prison, but the Dark One
was more prepared this time than with Lews Therin, and Rand
only got a rough patch on the Bore. Advance the timeline 50
years, the patch is already weakening. Adjust the world some
(Elayne is queen of Andor, the Seanchan have taken a
significant foothold but have been fought to a standstill,
Perrin has resurrected Manetheren, and Lan and Nynaeve have
rebuilt Malkier since the Blight has withdrawn. The group each
has a dragonmarking on them, like Rand's dragon but with
multiple heads (a Hydra). As the group plays on, they will
find out that the Dark One was prepared for Rand, and was
going to sever Rand's thread in the pattern, Rand had
anticipated this (due to all the alternate realities of his
life when using the portal stones, where he kept hearing "I
win again, Lews Therin.") and when he realized the Dark One
was attempting it, Rand split his thread into the pattern into
many, and spliced them to other threads (the group). So the
group has to pick up where Rand left off, the pattern is in
disarray, the group is sometimes minor taveren (a fraction of
Rands strength seperately, but a match for it together) and
sometimes not when the Pattern shifts. Since the Pattern is in
disarray, there have been few prophecies about the next Dragon
Reborn, and some may be wrong.
It's an odd way to go
about it, I know, but it seems to be making for some excellent
roleplaying, especially since a couple players are in the dark
because they have only read a few of the novels so far (once
they got into the world they started reading the novels, so
they can get more of a feel for the history of this world).
From:
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted May 03, 2003 11:08 PM
I've
thought about campaigns like that before, except where Rand
died at the beginning. It could make for some fun
possibilities.
-------------------- "Death comes
sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One,
and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Kamilis
Member Member # 63363
|
posted May 06, 2003 09:08 PM
A quick
note to Gadodel.
You have heard a lot of good stuff
about Wheel of Time on this forum and I agree with almost all
of it, but you should at least here one bad thing about it.
The magic system is way over powered, it just yells out,
"Please abuse me" there are so many ways you can have a lower
level channeler take out much higher level people. Basically
any human that isn't a channeler. Thats the only thing I would
see you maybe having a problem with.
From:
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
|
posted May 07, 2003 06:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Kamilis: You have
heard a lot of good stuff about Wheel of Time on this forum
and I agree with almost all of it, but you should at least
here one bad thing about it. The magic system is way over
powered, it just yells out, "Please abuse me" there are so
many ways you can have a lower level channeler take out much
higher level people. Basically any human that isn't a
channeler. Thats the only thing I would see you maybe having
a problem with.
Which should only be a real problem if you play the
game outside of it's original setting. The social stigmas
regarding channelers are quite strong, and underplayed by many
GMs, IMO. If you've got an "abusive" channeler, then they
should become hunted and persecuted nearly as much as if they
were a False Dragon
-------------------- Evan
"Skwid" Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
From:
The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001 |
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Kamilis
Member Member # 63363
|
posted May 09, 2003 01:06 PM
That be a
great solution if it were possible in every instance. For
example, if the player kills every one that saw him channel or
his friends don't care then you can place any sort of
repercussion from society because they don't know about it.
Then there is the problem if it's a woman, there is no social
stigma then, they can just channel and people won't say
anything to there face or attack them because of it (unless
it's a White Cloak) Even if they become hunted, with just a
few weaves of moderate power one person can stop any number of
people attacking them, which is one of the big problems. Then
there is the argument that says well in the books they new to
moderate them selves, this is true. So the logical thing to do
is make the players do the same thing. Problem is I'm not
going to tell a player how to make his character act, thats
just down right rude. Face it, weaving is just very, very
powerful.
From:
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
|
posted May 09, 2003 01:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kamilis: Then there
is the argument that says well in the books they new to
moderate them selves, this is true. So the logical thing to
do is make the players do the same thing. Problem is I'm not
going to tell a player how to make his character act, thats
just down right rude. Face it, weaving is just very, very
powerful.
Noone is arguing that weaving is not powerful (even
very powerful). The argument is that the power is supposed to
be moderated by social limitations, stigmas, and
over-reactions of people who have been taught for thousands of
years to fear channeling (and by extension, channelers).
If groups are not willing to realize those 'limiters'
exist, or downplay them like Skwid mentioned, then yes,
channelers will do whatever they want all the time, and yes,
they will be powerful.
If you don't want to tell
someone how to run their character, fine. But, if they are
throwing around lightning and fireballs in public, then a good
GM would have the townspeople fear them, turn them out of
their inn, perhaps form a mob, perhaps inform the Children of
the Light (if locality is correct), so on and so forth. If
there are no consequences, then of course, the channelers will
do whatever they want with
impunity.
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
From:
dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002 |
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
|
posted May 09, 2003 06:06 PM
The way I
run the game, it's just not safe to channel much unless you're
an Aes Sedai or acting under the direct supervision of one. A
female wilder who throws fireballs around willy-nilly is going
to find herself facing a circle of stern looking Sisters as
quickly as any man would (and, excepting Pevara, the Reds in
the novels were the incompetent ones in my book -- just
because you can get away from Liandrin does not mean you can
get away from Pevara). A Windfinder or Wise One being too
overt while in the Westlands will be smacked down by her own
Tradition because they don't want the Aes Sedai coming down on
them like a ton of bricks.
And it's not like initiates
of the White Tower get off any easier. Aes Sedai must
follow the Oaths, and abusive levels of channeling will even
leave an Aes Sedai spending a few decades on a farm. And the
Children are hostile to all Aes Sedai and can be found
anywhere.
[ May 09, 2003, 06:11 PM:
Message edited by: drothgery
]
-------------------- Dave
Rothgery Picking nits since
1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
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Gadodel
Regulator Member # 57798
|
posted May 09, 2003 06:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kamilis: A quick note
to Gadodel.
You have heard a lot of good stuff about
Wheel of Time on this forum and I agree with almost all of
it, but you should at least here one bad thing about it. The
magic system is way over powered, it just yells out, "Please
abuse me" there are so many ways you can have a lower level
channeler take out much higher level people. Basically any
human that isn't a channeler. Thats the only thing I would
see you maybe having a problem with.
Ah! Thank you for this.
I was wondering about
the differences in degrees of power between the two
systems of magic.
![[Cool]](Wizards_Com Boards Can WoT replace D&D (2)_fichiers/cool.gif)
-------------------- Got Modern?
"U
A" Hero?
From:
Lincoln, Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2002
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Coriantis
Member Member # 55882
|
posted May 10, 2003 04:13 AM
From what I
read here about the differences between D&D and WOT, I
must say: doesn't Dragonlance fulfill the same needs as WoT?
- DL is strongly story-based, it even used a SAGA
system after ad&d! - It has a very strong theme
centered around epic struggles between good, evil, and the
balance inbetween (neutrality). Thje quest for the artifact
"dragonlance" to fight back the evil armies gives the players
a thorough goal (there are other plots, but compare it to "the
one ring" in LOTR). - The stories are about friendship,
love, sacrifice, loss..., not about level & wealth. -
It has amazing novels written by seasoned authors (Weis &
Hickman) who are well known in the fiction genre. The books
have an impact & feel not unlike LOTR. - It has a great
world! One that's smaller than our own and doesn't resemble
Earth, one that is vastly developed and allows play in
different ages, where the particular situation will have great
consequences for the future. - Its magic is different &
unique (binded to the three moons). There are periods where
gods & magic were absent. Magic isn't less powerful, but
it's much rarer & more mysterious than FR for ex. - The
new DL campaign setting comes out this summer with more
support than WoT (but less than FR I guess, which is
good).
So, wouldn't DL fulfill the same needs? It is
different from WoT but they resemble in feel, and DL is more
classic fantasy with elves & dwarves who are absent in WoT
if I'm right.
Second question: do you really need to
have read the novels to run WoT as a successful GM and not
miss too much?
[ May 10, 2003, 05:38 AM: Message
edited by: Coriantis ]
From:
EU | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
|
posted May 10, 2003 10:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Gadodel:
quote:
Originally posted by Kamilis: A quick
note to Gadodel.
You have heard a lot of good stuff
about Wheel of Time on this forum and I agree with almost
all of it, but you should at least here one bad thing
about it. The magic system is way over powered, it just
yells out, "Please abuse me" there are so many ways you
can have a lower level channeler take out much higher
level people. Basically any human that isn't a channeler.
Thats the only thing I would see you maybe having a
problem with.
Ah! Thank you for this.
I was wondering about
the differences in degrees of power between the two
systems of magic.
Though in that case, there isn't much of one. A D&D
cleric is probably a more powerful character than a WoT
initiate of equivalent level, and at high levels, wizards (and
to a lesser extent, clerics) have some huge advantages over
channelers because of item creation and high-level spells that
do things that are different in kind than any channeler can
do. There's just more imbalance in WoT (if you downplay the
social restrictions on channeling) because "magic" is
concentrated in channelers for the more post part; there are
virtually no magic items, no minor magic users, few/no "combat
power-up for the warrior-types" weaves, and no arcane/divine
split.
-------------------- Dave Rothgery Picking
nits since 1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
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Sgiathach
Member Member # 139739
|
posted May 11, 2003 07:54 AM
When
thinking about replacing D&D with WOT, you should draw a
clear dividing line between the _Engine_ (read: rules) and the
_World_ (background).
I, for instance, had a look at
the WOT because I prefer low-magic campaigns, and wanted to
check out the WOT Defense system (check out the Armour vs.
Defense thread for discussion). I've come to the conclusion
that I like this better than wearing a plethora of magic items
to boost your AC, so I'm adopting it.
So far, I haven't
had a look at the WOT magic system. But when experienced WOT
players already say it's overpowered and can be abused, it's
definitely not for me.
One big difference between
D&D and WOT is the classes. Most WOT classes resemble a
D&D class, but are usually changed in some
way:
Barbarian -> similar, not identical to
Algai Fighter -> Armsman Rogue ->
Wanderer Ranger -> Woodsman (without spells) Sorcerer
-> Wilder (probably)
The other classes have no
direct counterpart. And then there's no racial diversity. So
I'd allow a couple more classes and races, depending on the
setting. As for the WOT world, it doesn't impress me much.
Registered:
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
|
posted May 11, 2003 08:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Sgiathach: So far, I
haven't had a look at the WOT magic system. But when
experienced WOT players already say it's overpowered and can
be abused, it's definitely not for me.
I think it's pretty hard to design a low-magic-item
game where magic users don't end up with a substantial power
edge of non-magic users in the long run (high levels in a
class & level game).
-------------------- Dave
Rothgery Picking nits since
1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
| |
Coriantis
Member Member # 55882
|
posted May 11, 2003 11:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Coriantis: From what
I read here about the differences between D&D and WOT, I
must say: doesn't Dragonlance fulfill the same needs as WoT?
- DL is strongly story-based, it even used a SAGA
system after ad&d! - It has a very strong theme
centered around epic struggles between good, evil, and the
balance inbetween (neutrality). Thje quest for the artifact
"dragonlance" to fight back the evil armies gives the
players a thorough goal (there are other plots, but compare
it to "the one ring" in LOTR). - The stories are about
friendship, love, sacrifice, loss..., not about level &
wealth. - It has amazing novels written by seasoned
authors (Weis & Hickman) who are well known in the
fiction genre. The books have an impact & feel not
unlike LOTR. - It has a great world! One that's smaller
than our own and doesn't resemble Earth, one that is vastly
developed and allows play in different ages, where the
particular situation will have great consequences for the
future. - Its magic is different & unique (binded to
the three moons). There are periods where gods & magic
were absent. Magic isn't less powerful, but it's much rarer
& more mysterious than FR for ex. - The new DL
campaign setting comes out this summer with more support
than WoT (but less than FR I guess, which is
good).
So, wouldn't DL fulfill the same needs? It is
different from WoT but they resemble in feel, and DL is more
classic fantasy with elves & dwarves who are absent in
WoT if I'm right.
Second question: do you really need
to have read the novels to run WoT as a successful GM and
not miss too much?
What do you think of this? Or should I start a
different thread about it?
[ May 11, 2003, 11:54
AM: Message edited by: Coriantis ]
From:
EU | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted May 11, 2003 03:52 PM
Much of
this is true, but the worlds are also very different and it
all depends on what you want. One of the main things I like
about WoT is that it isn't classic fantasy with elves,
dwarves, etc. If you want start a new thread comparing WoT
with other settings, or just with
Dragonlance.
-------------------- "Death comes
sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One,
and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
|
posted May 16, 2003 02:27 AM
Channeler
can get too powerful because magic items which can help than
non-channeler against channeler are very rare. I than tranfer
from computer to than book the item creation feast as my
printer doesnot work. In than C&S game one person player
than commoner was put to death for refuseing to hand over than
Chivalry sword to the knight who was in charge of than dugeon
exped. Medival soceitry have weapon control law on weapon and
armours. Wear aromous by any character inside than walls town
of cities was consider than hostile act while wearing weapons
in general wasnot consider hostile act. First it was recoige
that travel in the world outside was damgerous that certain
class of people have the right to wear armour while traveling
in the wildness but once in a wall town or cities or castle
they where acept to goto to than inn or their guest room in
than castile to remove their armous or than secuce storage
place to place their heavy armous. They where allow to keep
sleath weapon on their person. It your intent was peaceful you
donot need to wear heavy armour while bear arms do you.
Some serf's where grant the right to bear chivalry weapons by
the local lord but they didnot wear then everyday. Merchant
and other traveler where given the right to wear short sword
to potect against bandiets.
From: El
Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP:
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bobbi
Member Member # 141520
|
posted May 21, 2003 09:16 AM
NO COMMENT
Registered:
May 2003 | IP: Logged
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MT
Member Member # 88155
|
posted May 21, 2003 11:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Coriantis: Second
question: do you really need to have read the novels to run
WoT as a successful GM and not miss too
much?
It certainly helps to have read the books because you
know how the world works and how the cities work and how
channeling works, etc. on a nuance level.
If you wanted
to run a game without reading the books, I would suggest just
reading _Robert Jordan's Guide to the Wheel of Time_. It came
out about five years ago, but it's like an almanac to the
world. It describes how everything works and how everyone
works, including the history of the world, etc.
On top
of that, you can "almost" read the books by reading through
the WoT Encyclopedia. It's a good resource as well:
http://www.photeus.com:8090/~ewot/index.html
Registered:
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Freakwave
Member Member # 112462
|
posted May 21, 2003 11:53 AM
You don't
have to buy the new D&D 3.5, it is fully compatible with
3.0 and you can get it free as SRD.
D&D is aimed at
game balance, that means, wizard and fighter are equal at all
levels. Of course this doesn't always happen, level 20 wizard
CAN kill lvl 20 fighter easily, but then again, wizards only
have limited resources(they can only cast so many spells).
Antimagic fields and similars things can also thwart the
balance to the fighters.
In WoT this is not the case,
as channelers outgrow armsmen and others quite fast, around
levels 5-8 I believe. Also the lack of magic in form of common
items makes the non-caster classes weaker in WoT.
So,
in short: WoT is a good game when it comes to playing in the
WoT world, but generally, it is no match for D&D.
From:
Pori, Finland | Registered: Nov 2002
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Lord_of_the_Seven_Towers Member Member
# 97654
|
posted May 21, 2003 01:14 PM
The thing
is the RPG has to make some attempt to come close to the
books. In that nobody messes with channelers (except white
cloaks). Though in a game i totally 0wnz0r3d this black aes
sedai that tried to channel against me. Yarg i am killer
Warder king.
-------------------- Carai an Caldazar!
Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande
From:
United Kingdom | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gadodel
Regulator Member # 57798
|
posted May 23, 2003 01:57 PM
I
appreciate the unbiased analysis that many folks have given
me, thanks a bunch!!! ![[Cool]](Wizards_Com Boards Can WoT replace D&D (2)_fichiers/cool.gif)
-------------------- Got Modern?
"U
A" Hero?
From:
Lincoln, Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2002
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Ualaa
Member Member # 138992
|
posted May 30, 2003 01:28 AM
D&D
whether 3.0 or 3.5 edition is the game mechanics. WoT is one
very good setting for the D&D game, but it uses the
D&D mechanics. Its kind of hard to replace the mechanics
of D&D with a system that uses the D&D
mechanics.
WoT makes an excellent setting for epic
stories. There are very few stories available in literature
with the scope and story of WoT.
The biggest drawback
to using WoT as a setting is that the whole setting is built
around the events of the novels. If the iconic characters from
the novels are around in your setting, they can easily
overshadow the player's characters. Its hard for "The Dragon
Reborn" to not steal some of the spotlight.
As long as
you can ensure your characters are the spotlight of the
stories you tell, the setting rocks.
Its low magic,
which makes magic more powerful because there is less of it in
the setting. As long as it is not abused, it adds effectively
to the setting. That's something to be watched for, but others
in this thread have given lots of information on that
topic.
-------------------- ~ Ualaa
From:
Vancouver, Canada. | Registered: May 2003
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