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Author Topic: channelling when blindfolded
shadow-dancer
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posted June 09, 2003 10:32 AM      Profile for shadow-dancer      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think this is mentioned in any of the books, but I've always assumed that you need to be able to see what you are doing when creating weaves. My players are likely to find themselves in a situation where they will be captured and blindfolded and my thought is that if they cannot see they cannot channel, or have to make a very high concentration check to be able to channel.

Does anyone have any thoughts, or is it mentioned anywhere in books that I've managed to miss??

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From: UK | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Vardelith
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posted June 09, 2003 11:15 AM      Profile for Vardelith   Email Vardelith    Edit/Delete Post
didn't Rand channel while in a box? that would be rather dark! Or am I thinking wrong?
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
PredaTor
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posted June 09, 2003 11:25 AM      Profile for PredaTor      Edit/Delete Post
You can't channel blindfolded, since you have to be able to see what you're channeling at. Rand channeled at the box, he could see a tiny stream of light coming in at the top, and that's how he managed to break free.
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TheFlatline
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posted June 09, 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for TheFlatline      Edit/Delete Post
Then why not just blindfold channelers, instead of shielding and then binding them?

For weaves that require line of sight, then yes, blindfolding would work. But I could see a channeler weaving air to undo a blindfold without any problem.

And no, Rand didn't need the glint of light in order to escape. He needed the six aes sedai to drop their shield, or at least tie it off. Remember, he stilled women without even seeing them, or knowing who they were. I believe he stilled them before he burst the box apart too. Therefore, if you're aware of your target, either in contact with you with the one power or physically, you can channel at them.

Give the channelers forkroot if you're really worried about one channeling. It'll knock them out, and make them loopy enough to not be able to channel for quite a while.

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Freya
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posted June 09, 2003 12:10 PM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
I have the vague recollection of a story mentioned in passing while the Aes Sedai were trying to break Nyneave's block. I want to say that one of the past cases mentioned a girl who had a block where she was convinced she could only channel with her eyes closed.

Also, there is the scene where Egwene or Elayne (I've forgotten which) saw Nyneave Heal for the first time. Nyneave had knealed over the person and, IIRC, closed her eyes in anger. It was then that the weave formed and Eg/El saw how complex Nyneave's Healing was.

Sidenote, AFAIK there is no channeling involved in breaking a shield. That is the point of a shield: it cuts you off from the source. It seems to me to be a practice in willpower and concentration to break one. Also, Rand didn't willfully Still those Aes Sedai (ie, he didn't weave Sever). They were Stilled as a result of the amount of force he put into breaking the shield. And, as we well know, Rand is a very stubborn, willful person.

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felicia
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From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fisher-King
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posted June 09, 2003 04:29 PM      Profile for Fisher-King      Edit/Delete Post
IIRC, the woman whose block involved closing her eyes had the issue of not being able to channel at all, since she needed to be able to see the flows to channel meaningfully and she could only touch the Source with her eyes closed.

Maybe women need to see to channel, while men don't. After all, women channeling is linked to sight in another way - namely, they see a light around others who hold the Source, while men just feel something.

Just a thought, and probably bogus, but it's worth considering.

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From: Slidell, LA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kushiel
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posted June 10, 2003 08:58 AM      Profile for Kushiel      Edit/Delete Post
Part of the conflict of this discussion IMO (take it or leave it [Smile] ) is that there is a difference between chanelling the power and weaving something with it. You can pull on the source and hold it, and perhaps even be able to make a simple flow with it, but that doesn't mean you would be able to do anything with it. Chanelling on any complecated level (and certianly if you were using more than one affinity) requires 'weaving' them into the form you use to create the effect. Using air to remove a blind fold isnt necessarily a simple matter. It involves chanelling air, molding it into the proper form, then moving it to where you want it. To some degree if you couldnt see what you were doing it would be the difference between using your hands to slip off a blindfold and using a stick to scrap it off...both 'might' get the job done...but with the stick you might also poke your eye out.

And as for why you would try blindfolding a channler instead of giving them fork root or shielding them is that fork root is only known to a select number of people, and to shield someone you need to have someone more powerful than them holding the shield...and a channler to do it. Not all antagonist groups have handly chanelers of high enough level to casually sheild a PC.

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From: San Diego, Ca | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fyatuk
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posted June 10, 2003 10:17 AM      Profile for Fyatuk      Edit/Delete Post
Actually this has been brought up in the novels (don't remember where exactly). You have to be aware of what you are weaving and what the target is, but you do not need to see it. Since most channelers believe they need to see to channel, they have to because of association. The same reason why Aes Sedai believe hand motions are an important part, but Wise Ones don't. The AS need the hand gestures, but the WO do not.

As long as you can sense the target in some manner (touch, hearing, smell, etc..) you can channel at it. You do not need to be able to see your own weaves as long as you know the weave well. If you believe you need to see, then you can't do it period, if you don't believe it than you have to use other senses to target the weave and prolly make a decent concentration check (20 + weave level or so?).

That's my take on it anyway.

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Fyatuk Loth
Tai'Shin
Weaver of Dreams

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted June 10, 2003 10:24 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
Fyatuk's right. IIRC, it's Cadsuane who makes the comment that men always think they need to see to channel at something, and it was within the last two or three books, I think. Anybody else recall a more precise cite? Dave? Steve?

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From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sharn_Penndroen
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posted June 10, 2003 10:30 AM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
The point (or a point) is that if preventing someone from channeling was as easy as blindfolding the channeler, then everyone would be doing it. But we don't see this in the books at all. How do you explain about the girl who's block was closing her eyes? Obviously she could channel with her eyes close. Do you all believe that a blind channeler is impossible? What if someone burned out a channeler's eyes? Would they be effectively severed? I submit that they would not.

In fact, I say that just as a swordsman would learn to fight blind, albeit at some disadvantage (in game terms, he must back Concealment checks against 50% and guess at the location. He could alleviate this penalty some by taking Blindfight Feat.) that a channeler would also learn to channel even blind, albeit at a disadvantage. I would impose this disadvantage in the form of a Concentration check. The DC, I'm not sure on. You could be really strict and make it 20+weave level. This would be the same as channeling while being Pinned. Or you could go with a more standard (but still fairly high) 15+weave level. Your call. If a channeler where permenantly blind, I would probably make a Feat called Blind Channeling that would reduce this penalty by 5 or 10.

Okay, that's just my opinion. I realize that the books say that you have to see to channel a weave at something, but I also realize that there are instances when this isn't always the case.

Edit:
Just saw Fyatuk's post. Three of us posted at the same time. I agree. I believe that the fact that they believe they must see is a self-imposed "block". Just like the Wife bond requires the Asha'man to kiss the target. Is that really necessary. No. But they believe it is, so for them it is. The AS fireball vs. the WO fireball is another classic example. Good call, Fyatuk.

[ June 10, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Sharn_Penndroen ]

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A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

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From: Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Carbon_Copy
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posted June 10, 2003 01:12 PM      Profile for Carbon_Copy      Edit/Delete Post
I am finding myself agreeing more with the folks at the bottom of this thread. It's a matter of targeting: A channeler can channel at what he or she can target, and you can always target at a range of touch. Just like how you don't have to see to untie your shoelaces, if your target is in physical contact with you, it shouldn't be too difficult to channel Air in order to remove a blindfold. Trying to do something at range would A)require a concentration check (DC 20+weave level is not too outrageous IMO, you should see the sorts of Concentration bonuses some of these channelers can pull off even at low levels, and it should be more difficult that casting on the defensive, which is 15 + weave level) and B) apply penalties for being blind, namely anything you can target has full concealment and you need to be aware of the target's location to even make the attempt, use the grenadelike weapon rules for targeting area of effect weaves like fireballs. With rules like that, your channelers are still able to do things blind if they really want to or need to, but it makes things interesting enough that most would rather concentrate on being able to see first.

Healing is a special case, as those with the talent to Heal almost never actually *see* the guts and bones that they reassemble (it would probably be beyond most Healers abilities if they COULD), so I would rule that there is sufficient feedback from the Healing weave itself that seeing is not necessary.

And as for breaking a shield, a plumbing analogy would be in order. Shielding somebody would be like stuffing an obstruction into the open end of a water spigot and holding it there. If the shielded person can increase the pressure in the pipe to such a point that the shielder can't hold it in, then the obstruction is forced out and the shield is broken. It's not a matter of channeling finesse or targeting so much as it is a test of raw channeling power. I know it's more complicated than that (as demonstrated by Rand breaking the shield at Dumai's Wells), but it's a good rough analogy for how I envision it working.

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-CC

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Fahkrin
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posted June 10, 2003 03:12 PM      Profile for Fahkrin   Email Fahkrin    Edit/Delete Post
In regards to a man having to see someone in order to channel at them...the incident was when Galina was captured by Logain en route to the Black Tower. She ran away and commented mentally that since men believe they have to see someone to block them, if she was out of sight her block would disappear.

I agree with the opinion that a blindfolded channeler would still be able to channel a little bit...but only if they were aware of the target. Thus, a blindfold would be fair game because the channeler knows exactly where the blindfold is. I can see it now (pun intended)....a channeler sends a fine tendril of Air up their face, underneath their blindfold and lifts it up.

MY PET THEORY: Rand gets blinded during Tarmon Gaidon. He can't channel. So Aviendha and Elayne use the male adam to weave the flows for him.

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Fyatuk
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posted June 10, 2003 03:34 PM      Profile for Fyatuk      Edit/Delete Post
Just a quick correction... Galina is tha Black Ajah that put Rand in the box and got captured by the Shaido. Logain bonded Toveine (sp?) if I remember correctly.

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Fyatuk Loth
Tai'Shin
Weaver of Dreams

From: San Antonio Texas | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fahkrin
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posted June 10, 2003 05:01 PM      Profile for Fahkrin   Email Fahkrin    Edit/Delete Post
Oops. My bad. You're right (would you believe I was just rereading that very section and had the book with me?)
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AvaronGansdell
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posted June 10, 2003 07:24 PM      Profile for AvaronGansdell   Email AvaronGansdell    Edit/Delete Post
Channeling is largely a mental trick. if they belive they can't do soemthign they can't. during the age of legend no one belived you could heal severing. Nynave didn't belive it and so she figured out how to do it. sorta like the 5 minute mile. no one could run a mile in under 5 minutes till this young guy pulled it off in 4.595 in the next year dozens of other people managed it because they relized it was possible.

an example from the books is some girl at tar valon her block was she couldent channel without a guy in the room. hers was broken when the sisters at the tower emplyed twins one male one female who looked enought alike that they started with the guy in the room during her training and eventualy switched to the girl in her brothers clothing. after a few sessions with the girl she revealed herself and tada no more block.

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Vazkor Javhovor
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posted June 11, 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for Vazkor Javhovor      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Carbon_Copy:
Healing is a special case, as those with the talent to Heal almost never actually *see* the guts and bones that they reassemble (it would probably be beyond most Healers abilities if they COULD), so I would rule that there is sufficient feedback from the Healing weave itself that seeing is not necessary.

I don't think there's a feedback, rather that they channel a weave (based on Delving) and "pour" it into the body. IIRC, when Semirhage torture Cabriana Mecandes (sp?), she notes that she's able to stimulate the pain/pleasure centers of the brain only because of her extremely precise knowledge of anatomy.

On the first topic, I think that an AS couldn't dry her clothes if she had to see them completely. However, from the Rand-in-the-box and the channeling-when-sleeping things, I assume that only Spirit can be channeled without sensorial info.

Vazkor

From: Paris, FRA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged


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