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Author Topic: Munchkin and Min/Maxing
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 25, 2003 08:23 PM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
It every hard to balance all game equelly. How many remember France 1940 from Avalon Hill the Germany player have just than overwheln advange based on real
life event. To see who was the actural better player
they came up with than special system.

In real life min/maxing take place like if I want to have than good football team I look for different trait in each player to furfill than position on the
team. Do we say to Football team that you cannot min/max at all.

It seem everyone call than wilder/initiate combo than munchkin. Let look at it it the WoT is than real world. I than the Amyrlin of the White tower the number of sister are declineing as Aes Sedia rarely get marry or have childern even out of wedlock. The average sister channeler abilitity is getting weaker. There are some strong wilder who want to become Initiate to learn how to channel better. Would it be wise to turn then down or acpect then into the tower as Initiate it you be insult then to ask then to be novices it they know
how to channel already. What does the tower get first they get new blood, channeler who on average are stronger in the power than the average sister.

What about the Initiate/wilder combo. Let say there
are some Initiate who arenot tower material and never will be what to do as Amyrlin. First quieting
then for no good reason will be than waste as may-be they can be taken back into the tower. Why not set then free to be on their own as wilder an may-be their will learn some wisdom by being wilder. So is it being munchkin or being real to the Wheel of Time.

[ April 25, 2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Sophiathegreen ]

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 25, 2003 09:26 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
The argument isn't against players who multiclass wilder/initiate for story reasons, its against players who do it solely for the game advantages.

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"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted April 25, 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
The combo is not even about min-maxing, it is 100% abusive. No one in their right mind would not do it if given the opprotunity, if the decision was based on power. If you take Channelers of equal level (lets say 7th)a 7th level wilder has some perks, but the 7th level channelr has some perks that balance the two out. The Wilder/Init combo smokes both of them. It gets all the perks - none of the penalties, and some extra perks to boot.

I have yet to see a more badly built rule in WotC D&D.

--------------------
Call of the Horn
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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 25, 2003 10:26 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
It does seem that they didn't consider the possibility doesn't it? Of course, you could just rule that a wilder can't multiclass as initiate even if trained, because that time as a wilder changed her way of channeling, and vise-versa.
There should probably be a better solution though...

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steve Russell
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posted April 25, 2003 11:06 PM      Profile for Steve Russell   Email Steve Russell    Edit/Delete Post
One I don't allow wilder/initiate cross over because of something Cadsuane and sorliea say about learning a second way of weaving is never as good as the first.

If I did there are other issues to deal with besides powergaming which I have no problem with someone doing there are plenty of characters in WoT that want nothing but power.

Yet remember something with MIN/MAX only works if you are never called upon to have to deal with a MIN. Usually you rely on another character to deal with it. This is teamwork.

All a GM really has to do though is attack your MIN such as Bab, str checks and skills, and any number of skills that are not class skils.

Also min/max characters are designed for combat,

Action in a story does not have to be combat. Yet there are also role-playing, problem solving, and plots to be dealt with that a Min/Max character will fall flat on his face for.

Also to most Aes Sedi a wilder is still a wilder.

--------------------
I have a reading lesson with the Lady Riselle. She lets me rest my head on her bosom while she reads to me.
-Olver

Please visit and review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace Book.

From: dayton ohio usa | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 26, 2003 04:00 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
You bring up very good points. You couldnot outright ban the Wilder changeing to initiate just because they are powerful. In the books written by RJ the channeler written as being powerful. What bout Woodsman/armsman combo of the armman/blademaster combo. It remind me when the psion ruled came out for
2sd edition AD&D so many DM where up in armed saying it was too powerful and unbalanceing than they werenot going to use then. I read the book than found
nothing really unbalanceing of too powerful. I really
think the hight level wizard spells where more powerful and unbalance but that my personal opoin. One way is to allow the wilder not to take many more level as wilder when she become than initate untril she become than Aes Sedai and when than initate change to wilder she cannot take anymore level in initate untril she become Aes Sedai.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Eosin_the_Red
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posted April 26, 2003 01:44 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
My solution is to remove the SECOND bonus Talent and Affinity. This means they will always be behind in feats and they won't quite have the Juice that a straight Wilder has - it is still a fairly adventagious combo - just not crazy kinda broken.

--------------------
Call of the Horn
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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 26, 2003 06:25 PM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red:
My solution is to remove the SECOND bonus Talent and Affinity. This means they will always be behind in feats and they won't quite have the Juice that a straight Wilder has - it is still a fairly adventagious combo - just not crazy kinda broken.

In the Wheel of Time the channeler are meant to be more powerful than any other classes. I once play than game where spellcaster where more powerful than
any other class. To balance every class so none are powerful is not realise. There was abook writtern where a great baketball player have to wear weight on his arms and legs to take away his advange over other baketball player. Great singer have to have their voice ruin somehow so people who wouldnot sing at all should feel not threaten by people who could sing. It was than science fiction book forgot
the tittle.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 26, 2003 06:32 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
The problem isn't wit channelers being too powerful, as they are already the strongest class without multiclassing. The problem is with multiclassing channelers being stronger than other channelers, which doesn't really have basis in the books.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steve Russell
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posted April 26, 2003 06:48 PM      Profile for Steve Russell   Email Steve Russell    Edit/Delete Post
actually it does have a basis as a player pointed out to me that Rand is thinks he is powerfull but he comments that once he becomes a student of Asmodean he REALLy starts to go on his own.

--------------------
I have a reading lesson with the Lady Riselle. She lets me rest my head on her bosom while she reads to me.
-Olver

Please visit and review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace Book.

From: dayton ohio usa | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 26, 2003 07:18 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I personally don't see that as coming from multiclassing: I see it as coming from a strong channeler getting training. It would probably be the same if he had started as an initiate.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted April 27, 2003 12:08 AM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sophiathegreen:
In the Wheel of Time the channeler are meant to be more powerful than any other classes.

Channelers are more powerful. They absolutely own other characters in the game. That is not what we are talking about.

Wilder + Initiate is by far the most abusive combination in the game. It far outstrips the power of either Wilder or Initiate by themselves. We could use a little example - let us use an Armsman 7 or a Woodsman 7: which is more powerful?

Depends doesn't it?

How about a Woodsman3/Armsman4? It still depends. Not so with a Wilder/Initiate multiclass. That class will ALWAYS be more powerful than either of the two lone classes could be. Like I said, I allow it, I just take away TWO free feats. I still leave getting bonus spells from 3 stats, I still leave overchanneling, and the character still gets bonus known weaves for being part of a tradition, I still allow weavesight bonuses, I even allow them to keep the superior weaves per day chart of the Initiate, I can't really take away the boost to their Saving throws.

The combination still murders either class by itself - but this is at least a little more fair to players who wanted to be part of a tradition.

--------------------
Call of the Horn
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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 27, 2003 03:24 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skyman:
The problem isn't wit channelers being too powerful, as they are already the strongest class without multiclassing. The problem is with multiclassing channelers being stronger than other channelers, which doesn't really have basis in the books.

As I only started reading the Book by RJ I didnot know that. I once have than rule I use in D&D to stop
too much Munchkin I donnot mind than little as it show than player realer interested in the game, the rule went if you develped your basic classes in units of 5 at a time you arenot hit with the penaly of uneven leval. The only except I allow is than person who is total new to roleplaying mightnot know what class he or she want to play at the beginning so I allow then to change classes at the begging it they pick than class they real donot like to play.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ma'caldazar
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posted April 27, 2003 09:44 AM      Profile for Ma'caldazar      Edit/Delete Post
in the books they state that wilders once they got proper training is among the most powerfull chaneler it is because they have the spark though so the extra talent and afinity may be abusive other vise you cold argue for that they shold be mor powerfull than the strait initiate or wilder one have a weaker ability and one laks proper training
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skyman
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posted April 27, 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I would agree that wilders tend to make stronger Aes Sedai because they have the spark. Neither Egwene or Elayne were wilders and there are only a couple of stronger channelers. I'd bet Nynaeve would be just as strong if she'd started as an initiate.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Xythlord
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posted April 27, 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I'm gonna hafta disagree with you here Skyman, both Egwene and Elayne are Wilders (although not in the traditional sense that Nyneave is). Both of them would have channeled whether they were taught or not. Nyneave is powerful, because she was born that way (according to the books), just as the two E's were. I don't see how training Nyneave would have made her weaker (she wouldn't of had the block, but not weaker).

According to the BBoBA: A female channeler can feel the inborn ability to channel and relative strength of another woman who could channel within five or ten feet. To find those who could not yet channel, but who had the ability to learn, it was necessary to establish a resonance. The female Aes Sedai drew lightly on the One Power to channel a small weave, it is then up to the candidate to feel for the Power. If she has any ability to learn, she would feel the resonance of the Aes Sedai’s flow, at that point the tester was also able to feel the candidate and immediately know her potential.

Wilders are usually stronger than those that can be taught, but not always (see Sharina, of the Salidar Novices). Just as Initiates are better trained. When both are toghether in the same package, well theres the rub isn't it?

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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skyman
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posted April 27, 2003 06:20 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm gonna hafta disagree with you here Skyman, both Egwene and Elayne are Wilders (although not in the traditional sense that Nyneave is). Both of them would have channeled whether they were taught or not.
Being a wilder has nothing to do with wether you have the spark; it is simply that you learned without formal training.
quote:
I don't see how training Nyneave would have made her weaker (she wouldn't of had the block, but not weaker).

I agree. I think that there is a limit of potential for each channeler, and that limit can be achieved through training. Not being trained at first wouldn't make you stronger, except that you might gain strength quicker due to not having limits set on you're training. The maximum potential is still the same.

In my opinion the reason wilders tend to be stronger is because they have the spark, while many initiates don't. Initiates like Elayne and Egwene both had the spark, but wouldn't have been stronger if they had been wilders.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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Ma'caldazar
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posted April 28, 2003 12:59 AM      Profile for Ma'caldazar      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm gonna hafta disagree with you here Skyman, both Egwene and Elayne are Wilders (although not in the traditional sense that Nyneave is). Both of them would have channeled whether they were taught or not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being a wilder has nothing to do with wether you have the spark; it is simply that you learned without formal training.

But you cant learn whitout formal training whitout the spark
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Sharn_Penndroen
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posted April 28, 2003 05:48 AM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
Can you be born with the spark and be an Initiate? Yes.

Can you be born with the spark and be a Wilder? Yes.

Can you be born without the spark and be an Initiate? Yes.

Can you be born without the spark and be a Wilder? No.

In other words. To be a Wilder you must be born with the spark, but it does not preclude you becoming an Initiate.

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A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

From: Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 28, 2003 03:26 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly. Elayne and Egwene both had the spark and neither were wilders, both were initiates.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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JosephKell
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posted April 28, 2003 07:27 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
A character level 5 Wilder/Initiate qualifies no matter what for their traditions prestige class for their 6th level. Even if it is Wilder 4/Initiate 1. For a Wilder to make it to their prestige class they need 6 character levels first for the feats, unless they take a level of Initiate.

Of course a Wilder/Initiate at level 20 is more powerful than a clvl 20 wilder or a little stronger than a clvl 20 initiate but not much. It is easy to overchannel successfully everytime with Skill Emphasis (Concentration) and maxxed out Concentration. The only thing a Wilder/Initiate has over either is a third channeling attribute (so they get like a bonus 1st and 2nd level weave slot per day... big whoop, but that assumes they have a 14 in the third attribute)

And then there is the age old fact about Player Characters: The PC's are above average, they have abilities above and beyond the average person of their niche. Just like stacking skills, attributes, feats, and class abilities.

The combination is only messed up if the Wilder goes Initiate and still uses Wisdom to determine Highest Weave slots usable. Although I do think it is weird for an Initiate to go into Wilder, that is like a Fighter becoming a Barbarian while he is away from his master...

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skyman
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posted April 28, 2003 07:33 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
In my game I don't allow going initiate to wilder (unless there's a very good explanation). Just doesn't make sense. Once you've learned the initiate way of channeling you can't change that.

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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JosephKell
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posted April 28, 2003 08:50 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
The only reason I can see for banning Wilder/Initiates is because a person doesn't like the idea of starting as an Initiate and being denied a bonus they half. Which doesn't make sense at all. If everyone in a game makes their characters by the same rules, they can all go the same route for their character. But just because a person chooses not to do that, doesn't mean they have the right to deny others that choice.

It is possible to run a campaign of 4 male channelers each with the same stats and core skills (Concentration, Composure, Weavesight), and still have totally original characters. It is about Background, and feats chosen. Heck the particular sword chosen is an example of the character. A power gamer might choose to take Exotic Weapon Prof (Warder's sword) figuring he has to spent a feat on a prof anyway, might as well be a bigger damage die. Well Warder's swords aren't common place among elite professionals, let alone other guys. But a noble turned channeler could use a rapier (they already have prof in it, or if they have the Background feat Wealth, they could spend a feat on Rapier as a way to support the background story). An Armsman/male Channeler would probably wear a longsword (and maybe carry a halbard also). A Seachen Channeler would use a Scimitar.

I made a character once that took Warder Sword proficiency, but always used it in two hands, but he used the Fiery Sword weave of the Warder's Sword in one hand (to diffenciate between his comfort with the sword and Saidin). This male channeler was anything but a swordsman, he had NO feats for combat (aside from Exotic Weapon Prof Warder Sword).

Channelers get 4 + int modifier skill points a level, and only 2 skills on thier list are must haves (Concentration and Weavesight; composure is really only necessary for Wilders without Eliminate Block that need to make all those checks). And then there is the Background skill (get one at level + 3 ranks). So there are at least 3 skill points per level to flush out a character's story.

The people making the biggest wail about how unbalanced it is are just the ones that want to be the only ones to do it.

Here is a simple fix: Require Wilder/Initiates to have an Int AND Wis of Weave Level + 10 to channel that weave. Or don't allow them to take Wilder X/Initiate 1 to use the better table. Just don't forget: Wheel of Time isn't an Epic Setting. If 14 adventures with a character isn't enough (enough to get to level 15) to sate you, make a new character that is different.

The real problem is a lack of adventures to run. If there were more adventures you would see fewer complaints about abuse this, abuse that... no, that isn't for sure... there are a lot of people that just like to rant and complain ( [Angel] ).

And you know player made stuff is a lot more abusable than the Wizards stuff. My Chin'saron class is crap. It is balanced and looks great, but it is TOO focused, it is like the Wheel of Time version of D&D's Monk! It is a class for ONE type of character, which is bad. Which is why I stopped making classes and prestige classes. Now I just figure out combinations that do something good (like Cavalier 6/Foe Hunter 4 for a Dragonrider, ride one, kill the rest, or a build to make "x" character). Right now most Prestige Classes are more of Prestige Builds.

And Eosin, a lot of us know that Channelers dominate Wheel of Time after level 4-5 with ease.

--------------------
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...you might be a Munchkin.

From: California | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skyman
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posted April 28, 2003 09:14 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have a problem with game balance issues. I tend to play warrior or noble types in WoT, and even though they are weaker than channelers they are fun to play. I think sometimes people get too stressed about game balance. Not that it isn't important, but rping is why its called a role playing game. (that wasn't directed at anyone specific, just random thoughts relating to the post)

--------------------
"Death comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price."
-Lan Mandragoran

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JosephKell
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posted April 28, 2003 09:15 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
My real point is that it isn't the game that is causing complaints, it is the idleness.

--------------------
Instant Message me @ JonERPG on the AIMer

Visit AielManSpear

-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
-If your character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook...
-If you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four charges left...
-If the God of Destiny asks you what will have next...
...you might be a Munchkin.

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