Author
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Topic: channelling
when blindfolded |
shadow-dancer
Member Member # 104720
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posted June 09, 2003 10:32 AM
I don't
think this is mentioned in any of the books, but I've always
assumed that you need to be able to see what you are doing
when creating weaves. My players are likely to find themselves
in a situation where they will be captured and blindfolded and
my thought is that if they cannot see they cannot channel, or
have to make a very high concentration check to be able to
channel.
Does anyone have any thoughts, or is it
mentioned anywhere in books that I've managed to
miss??
-------------------- "For once there was an
unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes, a
land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all
things are perfect and poisonous . . ." "Tell stories full
of valour, of dragons and their shining deeds..."
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Vardelith
Member Member # 123267
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posted June 09, 2003 11:15 AM
didn't Rand
channel while in a box? that would be rather dark! Or am I
thinking wrong?
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PredaTor
Member Member # 144764
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posted June 09, 2003 11:25 AM
You can't
channel blindfolded, since you have to be able to see what
you're channeling at. Rand channeled at the box, he could see
a tiny stream of light coming in at the top, and that's how he
managed to break free.
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TheFlatline
Member Member # 86236
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posted June 09, 2003 11:44 AM
Then why
not just blindfold channelers, instead of shielding and then
binding them?
For weaves that require line of sight,
then yes, blindfolding would work. But I could see a channeler
weaving air to undo a blindfold without any problem.
And no, Rand didn't need the glint of light in order
to escape. He needed the six aes sedai to drop their shield,
or at least tie it off. Remember, he stilled women without
even seeing them, or knowing who they were. I believe he
stilled them before he burst the box apart too. Therefore, if
you're aware of your target, either in contact with you with
the one power or physically, you can channel at
them.
Give the channelers forkroot if you're really
worried about one channeling. It'll knock them out, and make
them loopy enough to not be able to channel for quite a while.
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
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posted June 09, 2003 12:10 PM
I have the
vague recollection of a story mentioned in passing while the
Aes Sedai were trying to break Nyneave's block. I want to say
that one of the past cases mentioned a girl who had a block
where she was convinced she could only channel with her eyes
closed.
Also, there is the scene where Egwene or Elayne
(I've forgotten which) saw Nyneave Heal for the first time.
Nyneave had knealed over the person and, IIRC, closed her eyes
in anger. It was then that the weave formed and Eg/El saw how
complex Nyneave's Healing was.
Sidenote, AFAIK there is
no channeling involved in breaking a shield. That is the point
of a shield: it cuts you off from the source. It seems to me
to be a practice in willpower and concentration to break one.
Also, Rand didn't willfully Still those Aes Sedai (ie, he
didn't weave Sever). They were Stilled as a result of the
amount of force he put into breaking the shield. And, as we
well know, Rand is a very stubborn, willful
person.
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
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Fisher-King
Member Member # 140220
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posted June 09, 2003 04:29 PM
IIRC, the
woman whose block involved closing her eyes had the issue of
not being able to channel at all, since she needed to be able
to see the flows to channel meaningfully and she could only
touch the Source with her eyes closed.
Maybe women need
to see to channel, while men don't. After all, women
channeling is linked to sight in another way - namely, they
see a light around others who hold the Source, while men just
feel something.
Just a thought, and probably bogus, but
it's worth considering.
-------------------- "You
ain't gettin' me on your goal row!"
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Slidell, LA | Registered: May 2003 |
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Kushiel
Member Member # 139895
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posted June 10, 2003 08:58 AM
Part of the
conflict of this discussion IMO (take it or leave it ) is that there is a difference between chanelling
the power and weaving something with it. You can pull on the
source and hold it, and perhaps even be able to make a simple
flow with it, but that doesn't mean you would be able to do
anything with it. Chanelling on any complecated level (and
certianly if you were using more than one affinity) requires
'weaving' them into the form you use to create the effect.
Using air to remove a blind fold isnt necessarily a simple
matter. It involves chanelling air, molding it into the proper
form, then moving it to where you want it. To some degree if
you couldnt see what you were doing it would be the difference
between using your hands to slip off a blindfold and using a
stick to scrap it off...both 'might' get the job done...but
with the stick you might also poke your eye out.
And as
for why you would try blindfolding a channler instead of
giving them fork root or shielding them is that fork root is
only known to a select number of people, and to shield someone
you need to have someone more powerful than them holding the
shield...and a channler to do it. Not all antagonist groups
have handly chanelers of high enough level to casually sheild
a PC.
-------------------- The first noble truth is
that life is pain. Once we can accept that we can trancend the
reality of this and be free.
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Fyatuk
Member Member # 133738
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posted June 10, 2003 10:17 AM
Actually
this has been brought up in the novels (don't remember where
exactly). You have to be aware of what you are weaving and
what the target is, but you do not need to see it. Since most
channelers believe they need to see to channel, they have to
because of association. The same reason why Aes Sedai believe
hand motions are an important part, but Wise Ones don't. The
AS need the hand gestures, but the WO do not.
As long
as you can sense the target in some manner (touch, hearing,
smell, etc..) you can channel at it. You do not need to be
able to see your own weaves as long as you know the weave
well. If you believe you need to see, then you can't do it
period, if you don't believe it than you have to use other
senses to target the weave and prolly make a decent
concentration check (20 + weave level or so?).
That's
my take on it anyway.
-------------------- Fyatuk
Loth Tai'Shin Weaver of Dreams
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted June 10, 2003 10:24 AM
Fyatuk's
right. IIRC, it's Cadsuane who makes the comment that men
always think they need to see to channel at something, and it
was within the last two or three books, I think. Anybody else
recall a more precise cite? Dave?
Steve?
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
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posted June 10, 2003 10:30 AM
The point
(or a point) is that if preventing someone from channeling was
as easy as blindfolding the channeler, then everyone would be
doing it. But we don't see this in the books at all. How do
you explain about the girl who's block was closing her eyes?
Obviously she could channel with her eyes close. Do you all
believe that a blind channeler is impossible? What if someone
burned out a channeler's eyes? Would they be effectively
severed? I submit that they would not.
In fact, I say
that just as a swordsman would learn to fight blind, albeit at
some disadvantage (in game terms, he must back Concealment
checks against 50% and guess at the location. He could
alleviate this penalty some by taking Blindfight Feat.) that a
channeler would also learn to channel even blind, albeit at a
disadvantage. I would impose this disadvantage in the form of
a Concentration check. The DC, I'm not sure on. You could be
really strict and make it 20+weave level. This would be the
same as channeling while being Pinned. Or you could go with a
more standard (but still fairly high) 15+weave level. Your
call. If a channeler where permenantly blind, I would probably
make a Feat called Blind Channeling that would reduce this
penalty by 5 or 10.
Okay, that's just my opinion. I
realize that the books say that you have to see to channel a
weave at something, but I also realize that there are
instances when this isn't always the
case.
Edit: Just saw Fyatuk's post. Three of us
posted at the same time. I agree. I believe that the fact that
they believe they must see is a self-imposed "block". Just
like the Wife bond requires the Asha'man to kiss the target.
Is that really necessary. No. But they believe it is, so for
them it is. The AS fireball vs. the WO fireball is another
classic example. Good call, Fyatuk.
[ June 10,
2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Sharn_Penndroen
]
-------------------- A man who will not
die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying
The
Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last
embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral
Ceremony
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Carbon_Copy
Member Member # 144909
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posted June 10, 2003 01:12 PM
I am
finding myself agreeing more with the folks at the bottom of
this thread. It's a matter of targeting: A channeler can
channel at what he or she can target, and you can always
target at a range of touch. Just like how you don't have to
see to untie your shoelaces, if your target is in physical
contact with you, it shouldn't be too difficult to channel Air
in order to remove a blindfold. Trying to do something at
range would A)require a concentration check (DC 20+weave level
is not too outrageous IMO, you should see the sorts of
Concentration bonuses some of these channelers can pull off
even at low levels, and it should be more difficult that
casting on the defensive, which is 15 + weave level) and B)
apply penalties for being blind, namely anything you can
target has full concealment and you need to be aware of the
target's location to even make the attempt, use the
grenadelike weapon rules for targeting area of effect weaves
like fireballs. With rules like that, your channelers are
still able to do things blind if they really want to or need
to, but it makes things interesting enough that most would
rather concentrate on being able to see first.
Healing
is a special case, as those with the talent to Heal almost
never actually *see* the guts and bones that they reassemble
(it would probably be beyond most Healers abilities if they
COULD), so I would rule that there is sufficient feedback from
the Healing weave itself that seeing is not
necessary.
And as for breaking a shield, a plumbing
analogy would be in order. Shielding somebody would be like
stuffing an obstruction into the open end of a water spigot
and holding it there. If the shielded person can increase the
pressure in the pipe to such a point that the shielder can't
hold it in, then the obstruction is forced out and the shield
is broken. It's not a matter of channeling finesse or
targeting so much as it is a test of raw channeling power. I
know it's more complicated than that (as demonstrated by Rand
breaking the shield at Dumai's Wells), but it's a good rough
analogy for how I envision it
working.
-------------------- -CC
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Fahkrin
Member Member # 89533
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posted June 10, 2003 03:12 PM
In regards
to a man having to see someone in order to channel at
them...the incident was when Galina was captured by Logain en
route to the Black Tower. She ran away and commented mentally
that since men believe they have to see someone to block them,
if she was out of sight her block would disappear.
I
agree with the opinion that a blindfolded channeler would
still be able to channel a little bit...but only if they were
aware of the target. Thus, a blindfold would be fair game
because the channeler knows exactly where the blindfold is. I
can see it now (pun intended)....a channeler sends a fine
tendril of Air up their face, underneath their blindfold and
lifts it up.
MY PET THEORY: Rand gets blinded during
Tarmon Gaidon. He can't channel. So Aviendha and Elayne use
the male adam to weave the flows for him.
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Fyatuk
Member Member # 133738
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posted June 10, 2003 03:34 PM
Just a
quick correction... Galina is tha Black Ajah that put Rand in
the box and got captured by the Shaido. Logain bonded Toveine
(sp?) if I remember
correctly.
-------------------- Fyatuk
Loth Tai'Shin Weaver of Dreams
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Fahkrin
Member Member # 89533
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posted June 10, 2003 05:01 PM
Oops. My
bad. You're right (would you believe I was just rereading that
very section and had the book with me?)
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AvaronGansdell
Member Member # 56181
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posted June 10, 2003 07:24 PM
Channeling
is largely a mental trick. if they belive they can't do
soemthign they can't. during the age of legend no one belived
you could heal severing. Nynave didn't belive it and so she
figured out how to do it. sorta like the 5 minute mile. no one
could run a mile in under 5 minutes till this young guy pulled
it off in 4.595 in the next year dozens of other people
managed it because they relized it was possible.
an
example from the books is some girl at tar valon her block was
she couldent channel without a guy in the room. hers was
broken when the sisters at the tower emplyed twins one male
one female who looked enought alike that they started with the
guy in the room during her training and eventualy switched to
the girl in her brothers clothing. after a few sessions with
the girl she revealed herself and tada no more block.
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Vazkor
Javhovor Member Member
# 73274
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posted June 11, 2003 04:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Carbon_Copy: Healing
is a special case, as those with the talent to Heal almost
never actually *see* the guts and bones that they reassemble
(it would probably be beyond most Healers abilities if they
COULD), so I would rule that there is sufficient feedback
from the Healing weave itself that seeing is not
necessary.
I don't think there's a feedback, rather that they
channel a weave (based on Delving) and "pour" it into the
body. IIRC, when Semirhage torture Cabriana Mecandes (sp?),
she notes that she's able to stimulate the pain/pleasure
centers of the brain only because of her extremely precise
knowledge of anatomy.
On the first topic, I think that
an AS couldn't dry her clothes if she had to see them
completely. However, from the Rand-in-the-box and the
channeling-when-sleeping things, I assume that only Spirit can
be channeled without sensorial info.
Vazkor
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