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Author Topic: When can an Aes Sedai channel as a weapon
Snow Crash
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Member # 85099


posted June 11, 2003 05:18 AM      Profile for Snow Crash      Edit/Delete Post
When can an Aes Sedai channel as a weapon and exactly what constitutes a weapon.

This is the discussion my GM and I had the other night. While ultimately she can enforce whatever rule she wishes in her campaign and I will abide by it I just wanted other opinions.

If I know someone is a darkfriend and I know that if they see me they will try to kill me and have done so before, can I pre-empt them and channel to attack them as soon as I reveal myself, or even revealing myself in the process of the attack, or do I have to wait until they do something to me?

My GM says that if I cast harden air on someone and then someone else in my party cuts their throat (no it was not preplanned but it has happened before) Is this classed as using the one power as a weapon?

If my warder is in combat with someone of lesser skill then he, can I channel to defend him? My GM says he can handle himself and I know this therefore his life is not in danger so no I cannot channel as a weapon to defend him.
I say that the intent is to kill my warder, whether the antagonist is capable of pulling it off or not is no concern of mine. Maybe he'll get a crit, maybe the dagger is poisoned, who knows, I say the intent is enogh for me to defend him.

What is everybody elses views, and be honest [Confused]

[ June 11, 2003, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Snow Crash ]

From: Australia | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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posted June 11, 2003 06:58 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
The Third Oath: Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defense her own life, that of her Warder, or that of another Sister.
(Note: At some points in the books the Oath does not include the Darkfriends exclusions. It may depend on your particular campaign whether or not that exclusion is in place. Let's not debate whether or not it should be).

Obviously, using the Power as a weapon against Shadowspawn (and maybe Darkfriends) is prefectly acceptable and even expected.

The real question is, obviously, the second clause. What consititues last, extreme defense.

IMO, the Oaths are subjective. For instance, an Aes Sedai can make the statement "Perin Aybara is a Darkfriend" if she honestly believes that statement to be true regardless of whether or not it is actually true.

Similarly, if an Aes Sedai honestly believes that her life, the life of her Warder or the life of another Sister is in extreme danger, then she can use the Power as a weapon against the percieved threat. A lot depends on circumstance and the personality of the Aes Sedai in question.

For your examples...

1) A darkfriend who will kill the Sister if he sees her and has tried to do so before. This could go either way depending on circumstance. In a dark alley or a raging battle, I think the Sister would be within her rights to precieve him as an immediate threat and act accordingly. OTOH, in an tavern, a nobles house, or some other circumstance where the threat could be avoided or dealt with without violence (by having him arrested for instance), then he isn't an immediate threat and she can't.

2) Harden Air... IMO harden air isn't a weapon. It is the sovereign escape from the Third Oath, disabling a foe without harming him. If the foe is subsequently harmed by others, that's his problem. Of course, there catch is, the Sister must honestly believe she is acting to disable the foe without harming him. If she knows someone is going to cut his throat a moment later, it gets tricky.

3) Defending a warder against an obviously inferior foe. Here I would have to say no. This is the "last, extreme" part of the oath. Essentially, if the person is reasonably capable of defending themself by means other than the One Power, than the Sister must rely on those other means. Maybe the knife is poisoned, maybe the foe gets a lucky hit... IMO maybe is not enough to meet the "last extreme defense" criteria in this case.

From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Snow Crash
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posted June 11, 2003 08:00 AM      Profile for Snow Crash      Edit/Delete Post
In the last case, when exactly does the point occur when he is nearing death, How do you put an exact point to it. When am I allowed to defeend myself using force. I guess it's a situational judgment. I guess the other reason I am a little ****** at not being able to defend myself or my warder is that when I do try things like harden air for eg, the shoddy save DC in WoTd20 means they are likely to just shrug it off and meanwhile I am wasting weaveslots and taking damage until I get lucky and he misses his save.

[ June 11, 2003, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Snow Crash ]

From: Australia | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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posted June 11, 2003 08:11 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash:
In the last case, when exactly does the point occur when he is nearing death, How do you put an exact point to it.

You don't. Like I said, it's subjective. When you, IC, honestly feel that unless you act to defend him your Warder will die, that is the point at which you can act. How you define that point depends entirely on the circumstances of the fight and on your own judgement. Two Aes Sedai, in the same situtation, would almost certainly make different decisions about when they could act. The key is to put yourself into your character and react like the character would.

quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash:
For that point when does my life become in danger. If someone atcks me can I defend with the rend weave or do I have to wait til I am on a handful of hitpoints, throwing the odd harden air at him and watching him make his saves more often than not.

Your life is in danger when you, IC, believe it to be. Put yourself in your characters shoes...

Imagine yourself standing in a dark alley. A dirty, wild eyed man at you out of the shadows, sword raised to strike. How do you react?

One Sister might trap him with Harden Air. Another might hurl him against the far wall with Arms of Air. A third might blast him with a Fireball. IMO, all are potentially valid responses, depending the personality of the Sister in question.

From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chel'adar Tamero
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posted June 11, 2003 02:51 PM      Profile for Chel'adar Tamero   Email Chel'adar Tamero    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by LuciusT:

2) Harden Air... IMO harden air isn't a weapon. It is the sovereign escape from the Third Oath, disabling a foe without harming him. If the foe is subsequently harmed by others, that's his problem. Of course, there catch is, the Sister must honestly believe she is acting to disable the foe without harming him. If she knows someone is going to cut his throat a moment later, it gets tricky.

M8, u are very mistaken here.....harden air is like THE most functional and powerfull weave available, because of its many ways in which it can be used.

Example: Warder and darkfriend fighting....lotsa movement.....Place a harden air in the shape of a sharp pointed stick directly behind darkfriend.

Example: When facing a darkfriend, envelop it with a spiral of harden air, and make it the thickness of say a molecule. Upon touch, the harden air will slice into flesh depending on the force pushed against it......if the darkfriend wants to run, he will be chopped into smithereens

Point being, there's all kinda weapons which ultimately fall down into two groups: Offensive weapons and Defensive weapons. The fact that harden air is used in a sort of pre-emptive strike appraoch, doesn't exclude it from being a weapon.

--------------------
-"Why is Tar Valon burning???"
-"Well...ehm....You don't want to know."

From: Netherlands | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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posted June 12, 2003 07:29 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Chel'adar Tamero:
Example: Warder and darkfriend fighting....lotsa movement.....Place a harden air in the shape of a sharp pointed stick directly behind darkfriend.

Example: When facing a darkfriend, envelop it with a spiral of harden air, and make it the thickness of say a molecule. Upon touch, the harden air will slice into flesh depending on the force pushed against it......if the darkfriend wants to run, he will be chopped into smithereens

IMO, these are examples of Tool of Air not Harden Air. Obviously there is some overlap between those weaves. [Smile]
From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chel'adar Tamero
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posted June 12, 2003 09:08 AM      Profile for Chel'adar Tamero   Email Chel'adar Tamero    Edit/Delete Post
true, I think you can use both weaves in the same fashion concerning the two examples......but the point is still the same, it can definately be used as a weapon [Wink]

--------------------
-"Why is Tar Valon burning???"
-"Well...ehm....You don't want to know."

From: Netherlands | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
MT
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posted June 12, 2003 10:48 AM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
I think his point was using Harden Air to _hold_ someone is not a weapon. It's sort of the standard practice in fact.

Now if you bind someone and one of your party goes to kill the guy, you should bind him as well. If, as an Aes Sedai, you bind a person knowing that someone is going to kill them once you do, and you don't make an effort to prevent them from doing that, then you can't do it.

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Paladin of the Lawful Naughty
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posted June 12, 2003 06:51 PM      Profile for Paladin of the Lawful Naughty      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snow Crash:
When can an Aes Sedai channel as a weapon and exactly what constitutes a weapon.

I have read the thoughts and persprctives of the others posted above. I am reminded of an old issue of the X-Force comic where Professor X and the character Cannonball are arguaging over how the young team of mutants has been handeling themselves. Professor X feels that the team has been to aggresive in their actions and inturn provoking the enemy to much. Cannonball feels that they have not done enought to protect humanity from the enemy. At a heated point in the argument Cannonball slaps Professor X across the face with an open right hand and then begins to throw a punch with a closed fist but stops inches from the Professors face and opens his left hand reveiling a small frightened field mouse. Cannonball won his argument with the Professor by proving that an open hand can harm while a closed fist can shelter. It all boilded down to perspective, timming, and place. Sometimes there is no cut an dry answer. You simply have to react as best you can and hope that you actions were the right ones.

--------------------
Spinner of the Great Wheel, Apprentice Lord of the Sith, Palladian of the Lawful Naughty

Recipe for the Palladian of the Lawful Naughty
“Take 1 level of Rogue, add 2 or 3 levels of Fighter then add multiple levels of Palladian. When your GM tells you that you are breaking your Palladian’s alignment remind him that your character came from a dysfunctional background so burning the whole village to the ground to rid the world of evil is ok from his point of view.”

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waqqif
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posted June 15, 2003 05:56 AM      Profile for waqqif   Email waqqif    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash:

quote:
If I know someone is a darkfriend and I know
is IMPOV Reason enough to use reasonasble force, I would in the POV of Randsworld consider a darkfriend automatically dangerous.
Even if the DF isn`t there to run amok, he may work for the Shadow in subtler and more dangerous ways. If he tries to use whatever kind of resistence, better to kill him than let him escape.
Shadowspawn is target, No Question asked, No Quarrels, No Quarter.
quote:
If my warder is in combat with someone of lesser skill then he, can I channel to defend him?
Yes IMPOV, but not with injuring or harming force, you could go safe road. But only if your Warder fights to defend the white tower, you or himself, if he provoked the fight, or begun the fight without an good reason, (and even then itwould be doubtful, operating on the edge)than not

quote:
My GM says that if I cast harden air on someone and then someone else in my party cuts their throat (no it was not preplanned but it has happened before) Is this classed as using the one power as a weapon?

When it`s preplanned or getting Standard then yes.

[ June 15, 2003, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: waqqif ]

--------------------
Suddenly the slim form went limp. The man eased her to the earth, and touched her brow lightly.
"Dead!" he muttered.
Slowly he rose, mechanically wiping his hands upon his cloak. A dark scowl had settled on his somber brow. Yet he made no wild, reckless vow, swore no oath by saints or devils.
"Men shall die for this," he said coldly.

From: germany | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged


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