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Author Topic: Callandor and Other Angreal: Where's the Difference?
Grayswandir_Blade
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posted August 20, 2002 02:34 PM      Profile for Grayswandir_Blade   Email Grayswandir_Blade    Edit/Delete Post
It's been a while since I've read the novels, but as I recall, all (most?) of the angreal and sa'angreal in existence provide a buffer so that you don't overchannel more than you can handle. Callandor, however, provides no such buffer--just the raw power. Yet, by the game rules, there's no difference between the two.

By the game, you get "free overchanneling" up to the Power Rating of the angreal or sa'angreal in question. Then you can overchannel further if you want to (pg. 290). However, though the description of Callandor specifies how unsafe it is to use, there are no rules that represent that danger; it's just like any other sa'angreal.

Before re-reading the rules, I thought perhaps angreal prevent overchanneling further--thus the buffer. Have there been any references in the novels to a channeler holding more OP than even an angreal allows? Otherwise, it seems like the angreal should act as free overchanneling and an overchanneling cap. Protect the channeler by not allowing them to channel more OP than the angreal allows.

Callandor, then, should eliminate that cap, allowing +8 free overchanneling then a chance to accidently draw in too much, represented in some way by a CON or WIS save. If the save fails, the weave in question becomes an even higher level and the channeler suffers normal over-the-angreal overchanneling rules. Opinions?

[ August 20, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Grayswandir_Blade ]

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DanausMantrose
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posted August 20, 2002 02:48 PM      Profile for DanausMantrose      Edit/Delete Post
I agree. In fact, in my own houserules for my PBEM game, I have stated something much to this effect. I use the modified Slot Pool method (slightly different from what is in the UTDB netbook. To quote my houserules in regards to Angreal:

"A Channeler may *NOT* Overchannel while using an Angreal or Sa'angreal. The Angreal/Sa'angreal are designed with a special buffer that prevents the channeler from drawing more of the One Power than they can safely handle. The only exception to this rule would be if the Channeler uses an Angreal/Sa'angreal that was built without this buffer. An example of such a sa'angreal would be Callandor, which lacks the buffer."

Straight from my House Rules page. If a channeler found/created/used an *angreal without the buffer, then they could Overchannel while using it the same as always.

Linking works in a similar manner, in that no one in the link can Overchannel to add more to the circle. While I didn't specifically state it in my rules, I'd say that while in a circle the Leader cannot Overchannel; the circle acts as an angreal with the safety buffer in place.

If you're curious about the rest of the houserules, just go to http://home.attbi.com/~prophecies_gm/houserules.html

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Grayswandir_Blade
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posted August 20, 2002 07:34 PM      Profile for Grayswandir_Blade   Email Grayswandir_Blade    Edit/Delete Post
Okay, and how about this as an additional rule: when using angreal and sa'angreal that do not have a buffer, the channeler must make a Will save versus a DC of 15 + power rating of the angreal or sa'angreal. If failed, the channeler overchannels by 1. If failed by 10 or more, the channeler overchannels by 2.

This represents that when using an unfamiliar amount of OP, the border between enough and too much becomes very small. The stronger angreal you're using, the harder it is to realize how much is too much, and the easier it is to burn yourself out. Sound good?

[edit:] This would be every time the channeler uses the angreal to weave. The overchanneling *would* make the weave stronger (which can really be nasty for things like Fireballs [Wink] )

[ August 20, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Grayswandir_Blade ]

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"We laugh in the face of danger, just before it hits us and knocks us out" - Lysander.
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Targul
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posted August 22, 2002 10:44 PM      Profile for Targul   Email Targul    Edit/Delete Post
Maybe I need to reread the series a 5th time but I thought that Cadsuane Sedai said that Callandor didn't provide a buffer against the Taint on Saidin. I always assumed that this was because of the fact that it was made during the breaking after the Taint was already in place. Maybe it's just me but that's what I remember. Anyway in my game if someone were to actually use Callandor I have told them that it will increase their Madness points as well, just like overchanneling does but to a greater extent.
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Grayswandir_Blade
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posted August 22, 2002 11:05 PM      Profile for Grayswandir_Blade   Email Grayswandir_Blade    Edit/Delete Post
I don't own the books, else I'd look it up...heh [Wink]

But I'm pretty sure Callandor doesn't provide a buffer against overchanneling. Taint, of course, comes along with it...which is an interesting way of looking at it. Perhaps any/all angreal should increase madness, if a save fails or something? After all, it *is* overchanneling, just *free* overchanneling.

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"We laugh in the face of danger, just before it hits us and knocks us out" - Lysander.
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DanausMantrose
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posted August 23, 2002 06:10 AM      Profile for DanausMantrose      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, the lack of the safety buffer in Callandor has the "side-effect" of making the Taint affect male channelers more easily. The barrel tap has been popped off the barrel, so the user gets the liquid inside as well as the dirt/grim left there.

What supports this is in Winter's Heart, Cadsuane makes a passing mention about one Sa'angreal (I won't say which, and won't go into details) that "unless it lacks the buffer like Callandor, (so-and-so) should be protected from drawing too much to do physical harm..."

So the comment implies that the buffer in most angreal simply keep the channeler from drawing in more of the One Power than they could safely hold. That implies that if they use an angreal, they CANNOT Overchannel also, unless it is with a flawed *angreal.

As for the Taint.. it makes sense. Since the Taint is part of Saidin, and if you have no buffer to keep you from drawing more of it than you should, it makes sense that you'd also be drawing more of the Taint than you should.

Annnyway... [Smile]

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Grayswandir_Blade
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posted August 23, 2002 08:20 AM      Profile for Grayswandir_Blade   Email Grayswandir_Blade    Edit/Delete Post
So, in other words, the taint comes along with it, like I said? [Wink]

But that still doesn't determine whether or not angreal should be considered overchanneling when considering madness. Like you said, even *with* a buffered angreal, you still draw taint--moreso than with normal channeling. Therefore, doesn't it make sense that when using an angreal, you should get a madness point if you go over your max level?

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"We laugh in the face of danger, just before it hits us and knocks us out" - Lysander.
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Arr MiHardies
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posted August 23, 2002 08:48 AM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
But an Angreal seems to me, for all intents and purposes, raises that max level. Now, if you are mad enough that angreal causes a trigger for madness, then, yes, check for that, otherwise, I would treat it as though the channeler could normally cast that level. Kind of light light passing through a lens, It spreads out to cover more area. Which leads to an interesting thought. Light can also cover less area depending on the shape of the lens. Perhaps there are angreal that SUBTRACT levels?

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Grayswandir_Blade
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posted August 23, 2002 10:00 AM      Profile for Grayswandir_Blade   Email Grayswandir_Blade    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Arr MiHardies:
But an Angreal seems to me, for all intents and purposes, raises that max level

Good point. But it seems like that's what the per-level 1D6 does; as you progress into channeling, you wield greater and greater amounts of One Power (greater and greater levels). Thus, you get madness periodically. Using an angreal, however, makes you suddenly draw in all of this OP at a super-high (or significantly, in any case) level before you get to the actual clvl that can wield it. And the taint *does* come with it.

So, how about this as a house rule: when using an angreal to cast weaves of a level higher than the maximum level you could normally cast, add one point of madness for the entire duration of the seizing of saidin. Good?

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"We laugh in the face of danger, just before it hits us and knocks us out" - Lysander.
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Xythlord
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posted August 23, 2002 10:11 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Wow!, I like that ruling, makes sense and it is not really harsh. It does make a male channeler think twice though. Nice and easy to implement as well.

And with that ruling you could have calander set of the user (since it is unbuffered) with an immediate madness check and maybe add the power rating of the angreal/sa'angeal to the DC. (only a flawed or unbuffered angreal/sa'angeal). The exception with this is using the item in a circle with at least 2 other women (as per the novels).

[ August 23, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Xythlord ]

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Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted August 23, 2002 04:11 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Arr MiHardies:
Perhaps there are angreal that SUBTRACT levels?

Don't ya have to channel into an through an Angreal to make it, uh, 'go'. So it couldn't work as a weapon. Besides, who would willingly want to have something made to allow them to uh, 'underchannel' when you can do it naturally? [Confused]

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JosephKell
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posted August 24, 2002 06:27 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Here is a question: Why (not how) does a character (pc) get a hold of Callandor? Or any other Sa'Angreal without messing up the game balance?

And to answer the first post: Overchanneling with an Angreal or (a normal) Sa'Angreal is like a free +X, so if you had a +1 Angreal and wanted to boost a weave by 4 you overchannel 3 and you get the +1. Callandor is different, to channel more than 8 higher (the power rating) you would have to do an overchannel for the WHOLE thing, like to go 9 over you would do 9, but there aren't any rules for it. Only Rand and other Uber NPC's (that Rand trusts) would have Callandor anyway, and there shouldn't be another Power 8 Sa'Angreal out there in the game otherwise Callandor looks like crap, even a +5 Sa'Angreal[i] can make a nice GM into a ****** off one, because you end up with One Turbo Charged Channeler, and in a party of more than one or all channelers, a lot of "Sidekicks," and these games are about teams, if I had a +5 [i]Sa'Angreal I wouldn't keep the Wilder (that is 3 levels below the rest of the party) with me because I wouldn't need her or her +1 Angreal to give me a boost.

Just look at the Linking Table and you will see why Sa'Angreal should be kept out of players hands, or be so big that transporting them is useless or that using it is a one time thing (like the Eye of the World kind of).

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Dashiva_32
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posted August 26, 2002 08:58 AM      Profile for Dashiva_32      Edit/Delete Post
i agree to that remark, that sa'angreal should be kept out or non-transportable, but then again, what if somehow you got a hold of one of the sa'angreal in the stone of tear, since thats where many are held? saying that a ring sa'angreal is too big to carry is not fair to those who somehow find one. my idea is that angreal are useable at all levels, but sa'angreal are usable only at level 10 and above. this makes it so you can still have them for experienced veterans, but makes sure that a 3rd level wilder is not able to take on Moghedian or Elayne if in a fight with them somehow.

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Arr MiHardies
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posted August 26, 2002 09:21 AM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged:
quote:
Originally posted by Arr MiHardies:
Perhaps there are angreal that SUBTRACT levels?

Don't ya have to channel into an through an Angreal to make it, uh, 'go'. So it couldn't work as a weapon. Besides, who would willingly want to have something made to allow them to uh, 'underchannel' when you can do it naturally? [Confused]

yes, you do have to channel through it, but if a character doesnt score high enough to get an idea of what the angreal actually does, they may be in for a rude awakening if they suddenly need to use it. They may be able to tell it is an angreal. and it may be a powerful angreal, but it doesnt necessarily do what they think it does. Perhaps a level inhibiting angreal was a form of punishment applied to those who misused the power in the Age of legends? would make for some interesting role playing

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Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted August 26, 2002 04:26 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
yes, you do have to channel through it, but if a character doesnt score high enough to get an idea of what the angreal actually does, they may be in for a rude awakening if they suddenly need to use it. They may be able to tell it is an angreal. and it may be a powerful angreal, but it doesnt necessarily do what they think it does. Perhaps a level inhibiting angreal was a form of punishment applied to those who misused the power in the Age of legends? would make for some interesting role playing

You may have missed my point among all the bad grammer I used, but I don't think that any one can be forced to use an Angreal, thus it would be impossible to use as a punishment device. It would be like telling someone to cut their own hand off. Punishment it would be, but it would be all but impossible to get them to do it themselves. Since using an Angreal takes conscous effort from the user it would be impossible to trick them into continually using it. They might do it the first time, but after that the Angreal would be history. It would be impossible to burn themselves out by overchanneling while their levels where 'underchanneled' because angreals have that buffer (overchanneling cap). Unless it was flawed like Calindor.

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Arr MiHardies
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posted August 26, 2002 07:00 PM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
It could be a device similar to the a'dam that creates a link between the channeler and the angreal, and can not be removed as per a'dam rules. this can be forcing. but i never said anything about continually using it. if they find it, and have no need to use it until a big fight, say, you can tell them a weavesight check says they can use it only once or something, then when they go to use it as a last resort in a fight they find their weave was cast at a lower level. anyways, I only suggested it as a one time practical joke to play on an angreal happy channeler.

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Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted August 26, 2002 08:07 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps this thing could be a ter'angreal, and it could not be removed by the wearer (like an a'dam). Ter'angreals don't need to be channeled into to make them, um, 'go', so it could become a rather nasty toy for an unfortunate PC to get a hold of. I can hear one of my Channelers screaming already. [Devilish]

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Xythlord
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posted August 26, 2002 10:02 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Well we do have the rules from drothgery's page for the Latent Maker feat, and the weaves for making angreal/sa'angreal. What if the characters who are trying to make one of those items, and after many days of concentration and sweating out the formula (KS: Arcana), screw it up and make a inhibiting angreal.

That is assuming they are able to make these items and you as the DM allow these feats/weaves. Could be fun though to see the look on their faces when the new angreal they just made actuall lowers the level of the weave they cast after taking the full weave slot [Devilish]

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Dashiva_32
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posted August 27, 2002 07:09 AM      Profile for Dashiva_32      Edit/Delete Post
from the whole series that i read, not once did i ever read about an inhibiting angreal or sa'angreal. i think that if one was made, then it may be made for a lower power level, but finding one would be virtually impossible. Even the ter'angreal have some purpose a user couldn't do on his/her own, so i think it should be the same for angreal/sa'angreal, whether it be boosting power by one or onehundred.

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Arr MiHardies
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posted August 27, 2002 08:02 AM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
We never said they did exist, we mentioned it is a possibility, and something meant to throw at the players. hell, they might even try to use it a few times before they realize it is lowering their level. Think of it as a cursed magic item!

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Dashiva_32
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posted August 27, 2002 03:07 PM      Profile for Dashiva_32      Edit/Delete Post
clever, it'd be funny to watch their reaction, especially if Rhuidean.... the doorways with the other worlds might help. the people who gave mat his ashandarei might give you a level weakening angreal or sa'angreal, or even a ter'angreal that draws the ability to channel out of the person for like, 2 levels. hehehehe

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The Aes Sedai lay huddled in their White Tower, doing nothing against the shadow except skeeming. We of the Black Tower do something. We are the Asha'man.

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Arr MiHardies
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posted August 27, 2002 04:03 PM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
answer me this. what would happen to a female channeler wearing mats foxhead medallion? would it absorb all the saidar gathering around a person when they tried to embrace it, or simply absorb their weaves as they are cast? or maybe it simply protects then from weaves cast on them. from the sounds of the description it protects against saidar. hmm...

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Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted August 27, 2002 04:28 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
Don't quote me on it, but I think that it protects him from weaves directed specifically at him. As to if this could stop Balefire of even a fireball, I am not sure. (It's probably in the Core rulebook)

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted August 28, 2002 07:55 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
Mat's medallion is discussed in the WOT FAQ.

Whether Balefire is a direct or indirect Power weapon is debatable, but a fireball is almost certainly direct.

As to whether a channeler could channel while wearing it...we just don't know. I suspect they probably could, though.

I don't think any of this is in the core rulebook, though.

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