Author
|
Topic: Warders who
channel |
Philosopher
Jack Member Member
# 95890
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posted August 28, 2002 09:52 PM
Guys,
I have a situation in my game that I'm not
sure how to deal with. I have a channeler who is about to make
another player-character her warder. That player can also
channel (I know it is against the WOT rules, but it is allowed
in the books). Anyway, the channeling character about to be
bonded is also planning to take a warder. Is this possible?
Can a channeling warder take a warder of his own? What if he
bonded the person who originally bonded him?
Whew!
Philosopher Jack
P.S. My game is in
trouble. I somehow allowed the characters to get a male a'dam
on one of the forsaken. They call him peaches.
From:
Bellingham, WA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Merclaar
Member Member # 67223
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posted August 28, 2002 10:39 PM
Hmm, kill
the Forsake (a Gholam?). He isn't anymore a forsaken, if he
let himself get
prisoned...
-------------------- cu
-- Merclaar
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Dark Ashaman
Member Member # 78577
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posted August 29, 2002 12:37 AM
About the
Warder question, I don't see anything wrong with it. A
channeler could bond another channeler and the second
channeler could bond someone as well. Even if that person can
channel as well. It can be a never ending
cycle!
-------------------- Suravye Ninto Manshima
Taishite
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Kentucky | Registered: Apr 2002 |
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Saulis
Member Member # 78015
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posted August 29, 2002 04:18 AM
lol... As far as "Peaches" goes, remember that the
male a'dam that was discovered in the books was a dangerous
item to use. Eventually, the bound channeler begins to be able
to exert control over the channelers (there were two bracelets
attached to the collar) that have him collared. Eventually
they have approximately equal control over each other, none
being able to leave the linkage unless the other(s)
consent(s). Just have him start making the channelers that are
binding him toss a couple of fireballs at their friends.
They'll get the point. ![[Devilish]](Wizards_Com Boards Warders who channel (1)_fichiers/diablo.gif)
-------------------- "Black holes are
where God divided by zero." - Steven Wright
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
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posted August 29, 2002 06:38 AM
I just
wanted to comment on channelers bonding eachother. I'd think
this would definately be possible. I'd also think that it
would be more intimate a bond since you are
doubly 'commiting' to eachother until one or the other
dies. (At least that's how it's portrayed in our game...two
channelers that are married bond eachother to cement their
intimacy.)
As for a bonded channeling warder taking on
a warder of his own...sure, it would probably be possible. it
sounds like rabid munchkinism to me, but it is probably
possible.
as always, it's your game...if you don't want
it to happen, then don't let it happen. if the adam-ed
forsaken is a problem (don't see how it couldn't ..),
then have one of his forsaken 'friends' rescue him for a
price. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Warders who channel (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
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DanausMantrose
Member Member # 50531
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posted August 29, 2002 08:58 AM
I'm with
everyone else here in agreeing that a Channeler should be able
to Bond another Channeler.
However, I think some
definate changes/expections to the book's Bond Warder weave
would be in order.
1) Compel to Obey doesn't work.
Sorry. Nada. No dice. Call it the One Power's natural
resistance aiding the individual if you want. I would be
TEMPTED to say that a Male channeler could still Compel a
Female (ala Logain & his horde). That's something I'd
leave up to the GM to decide. All evidence so far, however,
points to the fact that a female channeler cannot Compel a
Male channeler. Alanna vs Rand is the prime example. While
other male channelers have been bonded by Aes Sedai, we see no
evidence that they can/have been Compeled.
2)
Proximity; same as Compel above.
3) This one is iffy,
and would depend on how close you want to be to the books.
Sense Shadowspawn. The Bond (in the books) conveys this
ability to the Warder. Of course, per the books, this is also
an innate skill for Channelers (not a weave). If channelers
have it innately anyway, and we're talking about a
channeler/channeler bond.. no need to add this to the Bonding
anyway.
From:
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
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posted August 29, 2002 09:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by
DanausMantrose: However, I think some definate
changes/expections to the book's Bond Warder weave would be
in order.
I tend to agree. Some changes would be
necessary.
quote:
1) Compel to Obey doesn't work. Sorry.
Nada. No dice. Call it the One Power's natural resistance
aiding the individual if you want. I would be TEMPTED to say
that a Male channeler could still Compel a Female (ala
Logain & his horde). That's something I'd leave up to
the GM to decide. All evidence so far, however, points to
the fact that a female channeler cannot Compel a Male
channeler. Alanna vs Rand is the prime example. While other
male channelers have been bonded by Aes Sedai, we see no
evidence that they can/have been Compeled.
I don't quite know where I stand on this one yet. Rand
and Alanna are not a good example of compulsion not working on
a channeler...we're talking about the Dragon Reborn here,
hardly a 'common' channeler by any means. Now, with the Aes
Sedai bonding those Ashaman at the end of Winter's Heart...
those would be great examples whether some of the Bond
Warder stuff works or not. Have to wait for Crossroads of
Twilight.
As for the Ashaman Bonding Aes Sedai
(Logain), I tend to be of the camp that thinks that their
version of Bonding is different from the Aes Sedai version.
The Ashaman 'figured' out Bonding as a way to know how their
wives are doing when they are away. (So perhaps a
'subservience' feeling was worked into the boned.) The Aes
Sedai developed Bonding as a way for a person to be the best
'bodyguard' possible. Big difference in philosophies and
outcomes.
quote:
2) Proximity; same as Compel
above.
Why won't proximity work? That doesn't make any sense
to me.
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
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Wowbangers the
Infinitely Prolonged Member Member
# 101183
|
posted August 29, 2002 10:22 AM
As far as
the bonding goes, its perfectly legit (if you go by the
books). After all Elayne bonded herself to brigette; and Rand,
who is bonded to Allana, Min, and Avienda; who was bonded to
Egwene by the Wise ones. I think that this bonding circle is a
bit more complex than yours, so yours should be perfectly ok.
![[Big Grin]](Wizards_Com Boards Warders who channel (1)_fichiers/biggrin.gif)
[ August 29, 2002, 10:22 AM: Message
edited by: Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
]
-------------------- I have gone out to
look for myself. If I should happen to return before I get
back, please tell myself to wait.
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Katalya Aes
Sedai Member Member
# 93824
|
posted August 29, 2002 11:00 AM
The game
mechanics already make it pretty much impossible to succeed in
compelling your warder, particularly if he is a channeler.
As is, (s)he has to make a DC 10 + 5 (level of Bond
Warder weave) + Primary Spellcasting Attribute Will save, or
else be compelled. Oh, and (s)he has access to your Wisdom
bonus, if necessary. I have yet to try using my character's
Warder bond with another PC this way, just because I doubt
that it will work (DC 19 against a +8 will save is pretty much
a 50/50 chance).
Fluff-wise, Alanna cannot compel Rand
not so much because he is a male channeler, but because he is
incredibly strong-willed. Nynaeve fights of Moghedion's
Compulsion in the Panarch's palace, and Rand has a great deal
more practice resisting mental influences than she does - he
has been tormented in his dreams by Ishamael since Eye of the
World, is holding madness at bay, and spends all his time
wrapped in the Void trying to make himself hard/strong enough
to fulfill his responsibilities. He's come a long way since
being Compelled by Liandrin in the beginning of Great Hunt
(and IIRC, he was resisting that fairly well, also).
In
terms of D20 WoT rules, a channeler who has been Warder bonded
still has a *very* good Will save, and will probably shrug off
attempts at Compulsion. Rand is a 10th-level Wilder with like
20 Wisdom - of course Alanna can't Compel
him.
-------------------- "Is there no place in this
world for the man with a 105 IQ?" - Homer
Simpson
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted August 29, 2002 11:55 AM
That's
nonsense.
Myrelle (and Moiraine) cleary could use the
warder bond to compel Lan, and I think it's pretty hard to
argue that Rand is significantly more strong-willed than Lan
is. Besides, there's certainly textual evidence (from
Sammael's point of view) that holding saidin provides
some degree of immunity to being compelled with the One
Power.
-------------------- Dave Rothgery Picking
nits since 1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
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Mantyluoto
Member Member # 101169
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posted August 29, 2002 01:48 PM
[ August 29, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message
edited by: Mantyluoto
]
-------------------- "the last embrace of
the mother welcome you home"
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Mantyluoto
Member Member # 101169
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posted August 29, 2002 01:49 PM
[ August 29, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message
edited by: Mantyluoto
]
-------------------- "the last embrace of
the mother welcome you home"
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Mantyluoto
Member Member # 101169
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posted August 29, 2002 01:49 PM
but didnt
moraine bond Lan properly whereas Alanna bonded rand on the
spur of the moment. i'm sure Elayne muttered something about
wishing she had put some sort of obedience order into her bond
with birgitte and her's was the spur of the moment kind of
bond.
as you can see with the above two posts by me i'm
having some technical difficulty. nothing that a sledge hammer
shouldn't sort out.
[ August 29, 2002, 01:56 PM:
Message edited by: Mantyluoto
]
-------------------- "the last embrace of
the mother welcome you home"
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
|
posted August 29, 2002 03:21 PM
I also have
a couple of changes to the Bond Warder weave. First of all in
the rule book it talks about Warders having increased
endurance and rapid healing. The rapid healing can be
accounted for with the energy exchange thing, but the
endurance. Sure you can say that the Warder PrC has a high
fort save and d12 hit die, but not all warder bonded people
are "Warders." How is it that the Warder Bond saved Birgette's
life? I am considering giving Endurance and Toughness to
targets of a warder bond. They aren't very powerful feats and
besides these characters need something for devoting their
lives to service. Also I use a Detect Shadowspawn for Warders.
I'm sure everyone here agrees that this is clearly an effect
of the Warder Bond. Not just a weave for Aes Sedai. (I mean
the Aes Sedai would be paranoid, "Let me channel a weave and
see if there happen to be shadowspawn in the area.") That
would be a little silly. However some Shadowspawn can slip
by this ability, (like the greymen). The mechanics of the
Detect Shadowspawn Ability that I use are Spot Check vs. Hide
check. Therefore any shadowspawn good at sneaking around, like
a Greyman would be less likely to be caught, and a very alert
Warder would be more likely to sense one. What do y'all think?
Just some ideas I've thought of while zoneing out in Organic
Chemistry.
-------------------- A man who will not
die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying
The
Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last
embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral
Ceremony
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted August 30, 2002 07:11 AM
Grey Men do
not "normally" have the ability to not be detected as
Shadowspawn. It is generally beleived that in all the
instances we have seen where they were not sensed when they
should have been, they were warded by Black Ajah or the
Forsaken.
HTH!
-------------------- Evan
"Skwid" Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Philosopher
Jack Member Member
# 95890
|
posted August 30, 2002 11:27 AM
I have a
follow-up question.
What happens when an Aes Sedai who has a
warder is made into a Damane? Does the Sul'dam gain control
via compulsion of the Warder? Whew, what a
mess!
Philosopher Jack (reeling from the punches)
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Bellingham, WA | Registered: Jul 2002
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted August 30, 2002 09:46 PM
While a
sul'dam could in theory force a an Aes
Sedai-turned-damane to compel her Warder, it's very
unlikely this would happen. The sul'dam would have to
know that Aes Sedai can compel their Warders, and I don't know
where they'd learn that. Besides, a Warder whose Aes Sedai was
captured by the Seanchan would almost certainly rescue her or
die trying before the sul'dam could figure out much
about the Warder bond.
-------------------- Dave
Rothgery Picking nits since
1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
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Mystyck
Member Member # 98929
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posted August 31, 2002 08:50 PM
Two things
to remember about the Alanna/Rand Bond, is that: 1) Alanna
is already severly rattled about loosing BOTH her preivous
warders. SHe is still just coming out of that shock when she
bonds Rand 2) Alanna, in her shockes state, is having an
increasingly hard time dealing with the wound in Rand's
side.
IIRC, The bond that Elaine uses to bond Rand and
Min and Aviendha is a modification of the first sisters
bond... not a mod of the warder bond. The two are similar, but
not the same.
From:
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DanausMantrose
Member Member # 50531
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posted September 01, 2002 06:30 AM
Re: the
bond created by Elayne for Min, her, Av and Rand. If you'll
reread that section, you'll see that the sister-weave was used
to 'link' the three girls; so that everything which happened
to one would happen to the others. She states in the
description of the weave that at the end 'she wove the weaves
for the Warder Bonding weave at the end of the sister one'. So
the actual bonding to Rand was the same as the Warder Bond, it
was just modified so that all three women could be part of the
Bond.
Of course, these brings up other ideas; such as
a Warder Bond that Bonds multiple Warders at a single
instance. I'm sure the Greens would love that one; Group
Bonding
From:
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted September 04, 2002 04:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DanausMantrose: I'm
with everyone else here in agreeing that a Channeler should
be able to Bond another Channeler.
However, I think
some definate changes/expections to the book's Bond Warder
weave would be in order.
1) Compel to Obey doesn't
work. Sorry. Nada. No dice. Call it the One Power's natural
resistance aiding the individual if you want. I would be
TEMPTED to say that a Male channeler could still Compel a
Female (ala Logain & his horde). That's something I'd
leave up to the GM to decide. All evidence so far, however,
points to the fact that a female channeler cannot Compel a
Male channeler. Alanna vs Rand is the prime example. While
other male channelers have been bonded by Aes Sedai, we see
no evidence that they can/have been Compeled.
2)
Proximity; same as Compel above.
3) This one is iffy,
and would depend on how close you want to be to the books.
Sense Shadowspawn. The Bond (in the books) conveys this
ability to the Warder. Of course, per the books, this is
also an innate skill for Channelers (not a weave). If
channelers have it innately anyway, and we're talking about
a channeler/channeler bond.. no need to add this to the
Bonding anyway.
point 1 response: There have only been four male
channelers bonded (that I know of). Rand and the three
Asha'man that Taim said were traitors (they weren't, and got
scared because they were loyal to Rand directly rather than
through Taim).
Rand resists the compelling ability at
worst, or turns it on Alanna at best. (not sure if this is
more peer pressure or actually using it on her)
The
other three seem to be actually hiding with the Aes Sedai, and
they are kept on pretty short leases. If you read near the end
of Winter's Heart, it seemed that they were not only guarding
the three Aes Sedai, but also being guarded by them. I got the
feeling though that those three WANTED to please their Aes
Sedai (they asked the women to bound them, not the other way
around) to make sure they weren't unbound.
Possibly
Rand's compulsion immunity is a very high will save modifier,
being Ta'veren, or possibly (unlikely if the other three were
compelled) the taint of Saidin.
2) Proximity: Woah, how
can you suggest removing that? Alanna used that all the time
to find Rand! Dumei's Well, Far Maddening... feeling Rand
Travel around.
3) Sense Shadowspawn: I think this
should be moved to the Warder Class PrC. Not sure which level
to put it at though. Maybe it should also be activated like
the listen skill (that is the closest I can think of, you
listen for stuff around you, why not sense for shadowspawn
around you) where you have to declare it as a free
action(?).
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
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Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
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From:
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Wowbangers the
Infinitely Prolonged Member Member
# 101183
|
posted September 04, 2002 04:28 PM
What about
all the Aes Sedai the Black Tower captured, wern't they bonded
by the Asha'man that captured them? I could be wrong, I havn't
read that book i a while. I also agree that the Bond Warder
needs sense shadowspawn. Have a nice day ![[Smile]](Wizards_Com Boards Warders who channel (1)_fichiers/smile.gif)
-------------------- I have gone out to
look for myself. If I should happen to return before I get
back, please tell myself to wait.
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Arr MiHardies
Member Member # 86473
|
posted September 04, 2002 05:54 PM
Hmm.. I
really like the idea of making sense shadowspan a skill based
ability. it works a lot better and easier like that. Restrict
it to all the same classes of course. I might just have to
write that up
-------------------- You might be a
king... or a little street sweeper... but sooner or
later... you dance with the
reaper... ----------------------------- professional D20
Character Sheets, NPC Sheets, and DM screens http://amhsheets.notcrazy.com/
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
|
posted September 05, 2002 06:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell: [QB]The other
three seem to be actually hiding with the Aes Sedai, and
they are kept on pretty short leases. If you read near the
end of Winter's Heart, it seemed that they were not only
guarding the three Aes Sedai, but also being guarded by
them. I got the feeling though that those three WANTED to
please their Aes Sedai (they asked the women to bound them,
not the other way around) to make sure they weren't
unbound.[QB]
Maybe it was too subtle for some people (I thought it
was obvious), the Aes Sedai and the Ashaman were 'in love'
(most at least). At least that was the impression I got. There
was genuine affection between the men and the women. That's
why the Aes Sedai seemed to actively guard the Ashaman and why
the Ashaman actively guarded the Aes Sedai. And why the
Ashaman asked for/submitted to being Bonded.
As for
'short leashes,' I have *no clue* where you got that from.
![[Razz]](Wizards_Com Boards Warders who channel (1)_fichiers/tongue.gif)
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
|
posted September 05, 2002 10:07 AM
Well
mistress Freya, that very well might be true for some of the
other Asha'man, but not for all.
According to Winters
Heart, ch. 35 quoting from the POV of Eben Hopwil "He
lifter her cowl back into place on her head, and she smiled at
him from its depths. The bond carried her affection to him,
and his own back, he supposed. With time, he thought he might
come to love this little Aes Sedai."
Affection is
a far cry from the feeling of passion felt by the multi-bond
with Rand and the girls. Now while this quote does point out
that he is becoming fond of her, this took place after the
bond had been made, not before. So if he was not in love with
her, nor her with him before the bond was made....then there
would have to be another reason for him to request being
bonded and for her to do
so.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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