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Author Topic: Munchkin and Min/Maxing
Sophiathegreen
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posted April 29, 2003 01:39 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
A character level 5 Wilder/Initiate qualifies no matter what for their traditions prestige class for their 6th level. Even if it is Wilder 4/Initiate 1. For a Wilder to make it to their prestige class they need 6 character levels first for the feats, unless they take a level of Initiate.

Of course a Wilder/Initiate at level 20 is more powerful than a clvl 20 wilder or a little stronger than a clvl 20 initiate but not much. It is easy to overchannel successfully everytime with Skill Emphasis (Concentration) and maxxed out Concentration. The only thing a Wilder/Initiate has over either is a third channeling attribute (so they get like a bonus 1st and 2nd level weave slot per day... big whoop, but that assumes they have a 14 in the third attribute)

And then there is the age old fact about Player Characters: The PC's are above average, they have abilities above and beyond the average person of their niche. Just like stacking skills, attributes, feats, and class abilities.

The combination is only messed up if the Wilder goes Initiate and still uses Wisdom to determine Highest Weave slots usable. Although I do think it is weird for an Initiate to go into Wilder, that is like a Fighter becoming a Barbarian while he is away from his master...

It might be possible that the Aes Sedai of the White Tower where legimate worry about female Wilder not have some traiming in channeling since the wilder's donot want to goto the tower, the tower will come to then as Aes Sedai being knick out of the tower they say. Once they are accept by
the female Wilder they informal train then and they
also help the one that might be kill around the time the channeling abilites appear.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted April 29, 2003 08:47 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
Channelers get 4 + int modifier skill points a level, and only 2 skills on thier list are must haves (Concentration and Weavesight; composure is really only necessary for Wilders without Eliminate Block that need to make all those checks). And then there is the Background skill (get one at level + 3 ranks). So there are at least 3 skill points per level to flush out a character's story.

Amusing. I've got a male wilder. The only skill I have maxed out right now is Composure. +1 to hit for 5 rounds is a pretty handy thing, and is something there's usually time to do before we get into combat. The bonuses to my Cha skills are pretty damn handy, too. Concentration...not so much. My character has overchanneled all of twice in his life, the first time he really missed his check and so he hasn't wanted to try that again. Still Concentration is only 1 rank away from being maxed out because of those all-important combat-while-casting rolls.

Weavesight? Who needs it?

I mean, really...my character has encountered exactly 1 other male channeler, and he was in a sack at the time. Weavesight ain't doing jack for me, and I don't have many ranks in it because that doesn't make sense. I've put my ranks in a bunch of other places, skills I've had a lot of practice using in the campaign. Gather Information. Heal. Ride.

I'd rather play a balanced character than a min-maxed one any day of the week. [Big Grin]

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Lord Schpungus
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posted April 29, 2003 08:59 AM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
On the other hand, it's good to have a character who's good at what he does. Eventually you will meet male channelers with weaves you will want to learn.
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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted April 29, 2003 09:50 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
Of course I will. But does it make sense to be upping that skill right now? Not in my opinion.... When I start interacting with other Male channelers, then I'll start dumping points into Weavesight like mad...because that's how people work.

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JosephKell
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posted April 29, 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
I wrote that thing about 2 skills to max from a min/max perspective. Composure is useful skill, like listen or spot. Concentration and Weavesight are mandatory for a min/maxed channeler: Why risk wasting (or increase chance of wasting) an opportunity to learn a rare or lost weave? (Power Gamer's answer: "Never have, never will.")

My point was that it is possible to min/max and have a unique character with its own stat supported background story (which is supported by the background skill, selected skills from the points per level, and original background feat).

Heck, part of the story line for a min/maxxed character could include the desire to be powerful:
. Kyle doesn't remember exactly when he realized he could touch Saidin, but he does remember how good it feels to know he is better than those around him. His life as a farmer was nothing but one boring day after another, and he quickly decided to leave and discover what the Wheel really had instore for him.
. Kyle struggled day by day to deepen the well of Saidin he could tap, and as the well deeped, so did his madness. He is now certain he is the most powerful channeler in the world, and seeks to prove this fact to everyone.

Now obviously such a character would probably snap in two if faced with an adversary such as Rand or the forsaken, but it is a pretty accurate story for a min/maxxed male channeler.

Disclaimer: This is not HOW to make a male channeler, it is just another example of how it is possible to min/max and have substance. Those out there that say this game is about Role-Playing, and that Min/Maxxing cheapens the game are just jealous that they can't do both. [Wink] [Razz]

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Tristifer
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posted April 30, 2003 01:39 PM      Profile for Tristifer   Email Tristifer    Edit/Delete Post
i agree with JosephKell. a good roleplayer can justify min/maxing. plus a good player knows the rules and how to use them to his advantage, IMO.

as to the question about the wilder/initiate combo. i always related the "sparker" or person inborn with the talent with the wilder, and a person that can learn to touch the source with the initiate class. i think wizards did a crappy job with the write-up's of the major characters in the back of the WoT book. anyone that has the inborn talent of touching the source should have at least 1 level of Wilder.
-Elayne and Egewene should be multiclass Wilder/Initiates. the fact that this has an advantage is because E&E are stronger in the Power than most other Aes Sedai.

The bonus' for multi-classing this way is how(IMO) WotC designed the power rating for the channelers, other than bonus weaves for ability scores. the more powerful channelers have the bonus' for being multi-classed. in the books, the more powerful channelers are usually people with the spark. This is not ALWAYS the case. an initiate(person trained) has higher ability scores for their bonus weaves will be more "powerful" than a wilder(sparker) with lower ability scores.

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From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
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posted May 01, 2003 04:59 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
About two year ago I have major sturger done at Thomson Hosital in the top 100 hosital in America out
of 5000 hosital in American. I have than slowly learch aprition that enflame apart of my large colon. It was done by the chief sturgeon of Texas Tech than medical school in text done by students ready to get they degrees in sturgertry. In case right this you would want your sturgeon to have max out skills or near max out skill.
The Chief Sturgeon play role-playing game like D&D and Etc's.

[ May 01, 2003, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: Sophiathegreen ]

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted May 01, 2003 06:49 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sophiathegreen:
About two year ago I have major sturger done at Thomson Hosital in the top 100 hosital in America out
of 5000 hosital in American. I have than slowly learch aprition that enflame apart of my large colon. It was done by the chief sturgeon of Texas Tech than medical school in text done by students ready to get they degrees in sturgertry.

[Dubious]

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
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Whitewinds
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posted May 01, 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
She's trying to say that if you look at real life, there are people, and quite a few of them, who would, in game terms, have one or two maxed out skills. Surgeons, mechanics, electricians, most chemists, many musicians, etc.
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JosephKell
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posted May 02, 2003 02:09 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Who multiclasses as a Wilder/Initiate though? Unless you roll your stats you don't have many high scores... A Wilder/Initiate needs a high Int to channel high weaves! Or, if you want to make a TOTALLY one sided character (which could be explained as being a weak-wussy man/woman...).

Oh I thought of an idea: Aiel Wilder, take Disciplined as the Background (+2 concentration checks, +1 will saves; this is right up a madman's alley, concentration to overchannel and willpower to make madness checks after overchanneling too much...) (Aiel can't be one-sided to Int, Wis, and Cha; Only the strong survive in the Three-Fold land)

Or, for a Wetlander: Cosmopolitain, select Concentration, then take whatever flavor class and still be able to max out Concentration by level 5 (for 8 ranks to take a tradition class for clvl 6).

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...you might be a Munchkin.

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skyman
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posted May 02, 2003 03:13 PM      Profile for skyman      Edit/Delete Post
I disagree that Egwene should have a level of wilder. She had not yet touched the source when Moiraine showed her, and she was guided in her lessons from there, just like an initiate. Elayne also recieved training from the very first, as she was sent to be tested and continuously trained from then on. Just because they WOULD have manifested their powers on their own doesn't mean they did.

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Sophiathegreen
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posted May 03, 2003 02:54 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
If I was to created than Yellow Ajah I would max out her heal skill(conventable medical skill no weave),
diplomacy(bedside manner(communicat with patient and get infro from patient and give patient infro in a way they can understand) to calm down upset patient),
knowledge(healing,herbs,drugs,illness), Perform(slight of hand and other useful entermaint skill to include patient morale which can help healing) what I than getting at than yellow Ajah might be in than place with alot of people needing healing an alimit amount of weaves slots, so they treat minor illness and cuts with conventable medical
arts.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted May 05, 2003 07:03 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
Who multiclasses as a Wilder/Initiate though? Unless you roll your stats you don't have many high scores... A Wilder/Initiate needs a high Int to channel high weaves! Or, if you want to make a TOTALLY one sided character (which could be explained as being a weak-wussy man/woman...).

I believe (although I'm not certain, anyone else please correct me) that the Wil/Ini multi gets to pick whichever of the two Atts is higher for the purposes of how high a weave they can cast.

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JosephKell
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posted May 05, 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
The book says that the Wilder/Initiate channels as an Initiate, so Int is important.

So I can see going Initiate -> Wilder, but Wilder -> Initiate seems weakening (unless it is a powergame character that has 15 Int, 14 Wis, 13 Cha).

Any GM that lets a player use Wis still is just asking to get abused.

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-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
-If your character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook...
-If you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four charges left...
-If the God of Destiny asks you what will have next...
...you might be a Munchkin.

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted May 05, 2003 01:16 PM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
The book says that the Wilder/Initiate channels as an Initiate, so Int is important.
<snip>
Any GM that lets a player use Wis still is just asking to get abused.

*shrug* The FAQ says that in any instance where two features conflict, the multi gets the greater of the two, and it makes sense, besides. There's no reason they should suddenly be less (sometimes significantly less) capable, IMO.

But then, I also don't think a 13, 15, 14 (or vice versa) is powergamed in a point buy character, as that's what mine had. He had 10s in Str and Dex (average) and 12 in Con (slightly above average). If you don't have any att. penalties at start, then you're not powergamed, IMO.

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Xotli
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posted May 06, 2003 05:30 PM      Profile for Xotli      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The only thing a Wilder/Initiate has over either is a third channeling attribute ...
Well, I think the primary complaint of abuse is the free feats you get for multi-classing. Let's say, for instance, that you were determined to get all 5 affinities, and then start working on talents. A Wil 4 has 4 affinities and 1 talent. An Ini 4 has 5 affinities and 2 talents. But an Ini 2/Wil 2 has 5 affinities and 4 talents. So it's like you got two free feats, plus the three abilities contributing to bonus weaves.

But I have to say my whole concept of the difference between initiate and wilder differs dramatically from the rest of the board's. Everyone seems to be talking about whether the spark was inborn or not, or whether the person first channeled spontaneously or with a guide. But classes represent development. Classes have to do with what what you're learning and how you're progressing right now, not how you started.

My take on it is that the initiate advances by study under someone more knowledgeable, whereas the wilder advances by intuitive leaps and bounds, feeling out his/her own strengths and weaknesses. The advantage of the initiate should be that there are going to be certain things you just can not learn by fumbling around in the dark. The advantage of the wilder should be perhaps being a little stronger, and that you have at least the possibility of discovering things that no teacher could have taught you.

My party right now has two channelers, one of whom is a Wise One's apprentice. Now, since not one single day of the campaign (thus far) has actually ocurred in the Waste, she obviously has had no chance to further her formal training. At 3rd level, I actually made her switch to Wilder (well, to be more precise, I told her she couldn't advance as Initiate until she spent some more time studying under an established channeler).

As for the typical problems of being overpowered, we have a heavy emphasis on roleplaying over combat, so I've never had to worry about the fact that she now has this huge quantity of weaves: she's never exhausted all of them, even before she crossed over. I keep a pretty tight rein on the channelers by reminding them of the dangers of a wary populace (for instance, right now they're in Tear, where channeling is outlawed), and also two of the party members are pretty suspicious of the One Power in general, so it behooves the two channelers to keep a low profile even when there's no one else around.

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Fisher-King
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posted May 11, 2003 06:51 PM      Profile for Fisher-King      Edit/Delete Post
Just one question...

Since when is 15, 14, 13 a powergamed character? A 13 is barely higher than an average stat, and 15, 14, 13 offers no bonuses higher than +2.

Admittedly, the system in WoT tends toward less-powerful characters than DND does, but at the same time, PCs are supposed to be heroes. A cut above the average. Does Mat Cauthon have an 8? Rand al'Thor? Thom Merrilin? Didn't think so. If you want to experience the Wheel of Time universe, you have to approach it from the same perspective as the characters in it. Not from the perspective of Basel Gill, but from that of Lan Mandragoran. You're a hero, not an innkeeper.

Sorry, little annoyance I have with people assuming that those who enjoy having characters with high stats are power-gamers. It's always nice to throw down the dice and see those three sixes...

And don't deny you get the same grin on your face that I do if it happens twice with the same character.

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Ualaa
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posted May 11, 2003 09:16 PM      Profile for Ualaa      Edit/Delete Post
Any game is about having fun; if both the players and DM/GM are enjoying themselves then all is good.

A wilder is someone who initially learnt to channel on their own. An initiate is someone who learnt to channel in an organization such as the White Tower. Every Aes Sedai who came to the White Tower and had their block broken (at least in the stories) then learnt as an Initiate thereafter.

From a roleplaying point of view, multiclassing from a Wilder to an Initiate makes complete sense, but the reverse is not true. Each person can do their own thing in their games.

I have a setting which is basically my world. Its pretty close to normal Core classes 3rd edition. I however allow Wheel of Time, Everquest Roleplaying Game and a couple others together, with the caveat that classes from one book are pretty much limited to information from their setting book. It works for my players. If multiclassing a wilder/initiate works for your group, more power to your group.

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silentdaito
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posted May 12, 2003 12:13 AM      Profile for silentdaito   Email silentdaito    Edit/Delete Post
Actually from what I remember Nynaeve channeled as a wilder for quite sometime after she went to the White Tower. Case in point being that she didn't lose her block until far after going to the White Tower. And that is something that only a Wilder has.
I would tend to agree that a GM should not allow A Wilder/Initiate multiclassing as it is blatantly out of line with the story. You never here of Wilder's suddenly channeling in a different way just because they acquire some formal training. Its a lot like either learning something for yourself or having someone teach it to you. It doesn't mean that your going to suddenly rethink the way you do something to exactly the way that person did it.

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Sgiathach
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posted May 12, 2003 06:46 AM      Profile for Sgiathach      Edit/Delete Post
Warning: I'm about to make a totally unqualified remark now, as I don't have any experience with the WOT magic system. However, sometimes an "untainted" opinion can be useful. Proceed at your own risk. [Smile]

In D&D, certain multiclass combos are ruled out or limited by certain requirements:
- by alignment requirements (and WOT got rid of alignment I know). Yes, A barbarian/monk would have 50ft base speed, but a barbarian must not be lawful and a monk must be lawful.
- Some classes are just For Keeps. If you take a level in a different class, you'll never be able to take another level in the previous class (paladin, monk)
- usually multiclassing leaves you with some gap in your stats. Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian(/Rogues) may be melee monsters, but they'll have a Will save of a newborn baby.

Going more into the direction of spellcasters:
- spellcaster levels are not cumulative when calculating spells per day. For WOT, it would mean a Ini5/Wil5 would lose two spell levels compared to Wil10.

As I said, I don't have any experience with it, but maybe one of the following suggestions could prove useful:

- A character with levels in Initiate cannot take any levels in Wilder. Thus, the step from Wilder to Initiate is a one-way road.
- change the Caster Level rule so that they are not cumulative but only the highest class counts (which is rather harsh).
- and have the ex-wilder lose their most wilder-specific abilities, much like a D&D barbarian who becomes lawful loses his ability to rage.

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Sophiathegreen
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posted May 16, 2003 03:11 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
In D&D not all spellcaster cast or learn they spell the same way. The Cleric and Paladin pray for their spells. The Bard use music to cast her spells. The druid is one with nature. The wizard learn their magic from books and mentors and spell research. While the Sorcerer learn her magic as inborn talent.
They all are total different from each other in detail. In wheel of Time Channeling the power is the same for Wilder and Initiate. Than 4th level Wilder/2nd level initiate has than 6th level caster level for effect which use caster level to figour out effects.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
MT
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posted May 16, 2003 06:22 PM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
Two comment.

1. For the actual "physics" of a wilder vs. an initiate in the books, the Seanchan are a perfect example. Damane are wilders, they have the inborn ability to channel. Sul'dam are "not-wilders", they have the ability to be taught to channel. The Seanchan test for both, using the adam, and file them accordingly.

2. Note that I call the sul'dam "not-wilders" instead of "initiates" because Initiates are a class, or "way of life". Xotli has it right in that the classes are distiguished by how channelers are spending their time as opposed to how they were born.

If you look at all the featured of both classes (saving throws, AtB, DfB, feats, etc.) Wilders indicate channelers who are learning on their own and developing their physical skills as much as they are channeling. The Initiate class is built toward those who are being formally trained by someone. You lose out on your saves, attacks, etc., but you gain a bunch of channeling feats.

In the Books, Egwene has the inborn ability (she's a wilder), but because Moiraine started teaching her before she learned to channel on her own, she is an Initiate 1. She never had to learn channeling without a mentor, so she never became a Wilder (no block, etc.)

So I think you can freely multiclass between the two depending on if you are being formally trained or are out on your own. The only caveot I would add is that I would remove the extra affinity and talent you get simply for multiclassing, but keep everything else the same.

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted May 19, 2003 06:47 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
I think there's a good reason here not to use the term wilder in reference to someone who has the spark. Call them sparkers, just so they're not confused with the class. I thought you'd done exactly that, and wrote this long-ass screed, when really you hadn't done anything of the sort.

[ May 19, 2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: The Great Gray Skwid ]

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
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Tristifer
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posted May 19, 2003 08:24 AM      Profile for Tristifer   Email Tristifer    Edit/Delete Post
i have a question for everyone who is against allowing characters to multi-class from Wilder to Initiate-

how do you explain how a 'sparker' is more powerful with the OP than an character that can only be trained to use the OP?

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Eth Sularus Oth Mithas
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
Tai'shar American

From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted May 19, 2003 09:17 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tristifer:
how do you explain how a 'sparker' is more powerful with the OP than an character that can only be trained to use the OP?

This is not a rule. It is a trend.

HTH.

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

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