Author
|
Topic: Crossroads
****MAJOR SPOILERS*** disscussion |
aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
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posted January 15, 2003 05:08 PM
This topic
is intended for discussion of theories, and new facts as
revealed in CoT. If you have not yet read it (which is very
likely considering how recently the book hit stores) and you
don't want anything spoiled, leave now before you ruin your
supper. As Lini says, "Any man who sups from too many plates
must expect a belly ache, and deserves it."
As we all
know, Captain Mellar is a darkfreind, and thanks to recent
developments, we know who his Black sister in the palace is.
Although it wasn't said out-right, there is a strong finger
pointing at...no, not Merilille, but Sareitha. She alone of
the AS in Caemlyn appears to trust him (of couse, we know that
no darkfreinds trust eachother, but they use eachother to the
benefit of their mutual goals). This screams to me that she is
the one spoken of by the other black sisters that were in
Caemyn. Even Elayne doesn't trust Mellar and he "saved" her
life. Tuon, we all know as the Daughter of the Nine Moons,
as well as a woman who can learn to channel, what we didn't
know, is that Mat Cauthon already performed the first half of
the Seanchan wedding rites, by naming her his wife 3 times.
What we still don't know, though I suspect it is
whether she said the other half. It is obvious now that part
of the fortelling by Tuon's off screen fortelling in WH
included that she would marry a man who remembered the face of
Artur Hawkwing. This was also implied rather than said, but
"anything less, I would no belive". Oh dear, what has
Egwene gotten herself into? The woman sometimes can't leave well enough alone. I
am debating who would have given her away, but if it wasn't
Halima(Arangar), then it had to be Romanda (the known black
among them). It appears to be black sisters that captured her,
because they destroyed the boat she was in and unless the
soldiers in the boat are the ones with those sisters on the
dock, then they died.
-------------------- Stupidity
is not a crime, so you're free to go. Normal people
frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of
serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to
snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always
seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man",
etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your
back! My web page, new & improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Heron_Marked_Blade Member Member
# 110617
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posted January 15, 2003 05:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre: I am
debating who would have given her [Egwene] away, but if it
wasn't Halima(Arangar), then it had to be Romanda (the known
black among them).
I wonder about this, because from what I remember (I
don't have the book with me) nobody knew about the plan except
for Leanne. Maybe I misread something, but this wasn't the
plan that Egwene told the other Aes Sedai, this was a secret
plan that she kept from everyone except for Leanne and
possibly Siuan.
Any idea who the person that Davram
Bashere wants to talk to (after his wife was attacked) is, and
what he wants to talk about? That's bugging me. As to what the
people were looking for in his tent and in Dobraine's tent, my
theory is that one of the Forsaken sent them to find the keys
to the Choedan Kal. It's just slightly ironic that they're too
late, and while their spies are looking for the access keys,
Rand's beating the crap out of the Forsaken with them (well,
not technically -- he doesn't fry anyone, but he draws them to
him and allows OTHERS to kick the smack out of
them).
Did any time pass between when we last left Mat
and when Davram Bashere, Loial, and Logain went to parley with
the Seanchan? The message Loial brought back to Rand said that
he could talk peace to the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and
unless some time has passed and the Seanchan recovered her,
she should still be fleeing from the circus with Mat. Unless
the Seanchan are still trying to cover up her disappearance,
but that seems unintelligent.
What is Furyk Karede
doing with his group of Deathwatch Guards and damane? They
disappeared too quickly to simply be looking for Tuon,
although that could be what they're
doing...
-------------------- "Suravye ninto
manshima taishite."
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Heron_Marked_Blade Member Member
# 110617
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posted January 15, 2003 05:49 PM
Also, it's
interesting to see that Jordan confirmed a hotly debated use
of the weave Harden Air: if woven around someone's head and
tied off, it will cause
suffocation!
-------------------- "Suravye ninto
manshima taishite."
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Tam al'Moff
Member Member # 79189
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posted January 16, 2003 12:18 AM
quote:
As to
what the people were looking for in his tent and in
Dobraine's tent, my theory is that one of the Forsaken sent
them to find the keys to the Choedan Kal.
I was under the impression that the tents where
searched for the Seal's to the Dark One's prison. I thought
this was mentioned in Bashere's report to Rand but I could be
wrong.
-------------------- If it aint broke don't
fix it.
From:
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Tam al'Moff
Member Member # 79189
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posted January 16, 2003 12:41 AM
quote:
Oh
dear, what has Egwene gotten herself into? The woman
sometimes can't leave well enough alone. I am debating who
would have given her away, but if it wasn't Halima(Arangar),
then it had to be Romanda (the known black among them). It
appears to be black sisters that captured her, because they
destroyed the boat she was in and unless the soldiers in the
boat are the ones with those sisters on the dock, then they
died.
Anyone else notice that Bela was around when things
went belly up. Either she is a DF or a bad luck charm either
way she would still make good soup. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Crossroads MAJOR SPOILERS disscussion (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- If it aint broke
don't fix it.
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Jak Shadow
Member Member # 39941
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posted January 16, 2003 02:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by
Heron_Marked_Blade:
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre: I am
debating who would have given her [Egwene] away, but if it
wasn't Halima(Arangar), then it had to be Romanda (the
known black among them).
I wonder about this, because from what I remember (I
don't have the book with me) nobody knew about the plan
except for Leanne. Maybe I misread something, but this
wasn't the plan that Egwene told the other Aes Sedai, this
was a secret plan that she kept from everyone except for
Leanne and possibly Siuan.
No one knew that Egwene was going to do the
Channelling, but the whole Hall knew what the plan was. The
Aes Sedai who captured her was, IIRC, rather surprised at such
a good catch. She was expecting a Novice, Accepted or ordinary
Aes Sedai but instead she got the upstart Amyrlin
Seat.
Also as for who turned her in? Well Halima seems
a good possibility seeing as she (he) was going around killing
as many of the people able to create Cuellindar (sp?) as
possible before the plan was enacted, thus leaving only
Leanne, Bodwin (sp?) and Egwene herself able to do it. As for
the others, we're still not 100% sure who has a hold on
Sheriam and the only guaranteed Black is the Brown sister who
has Halima as her
'secretary.'
-------------------- "I'm not
feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday
night Delta Green, GenCon UK
From:
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Aagon
Member Member # 113690
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posted January 16, 2003 08:59 AM
Yeah... how
do we know Romanda is a black?
About Toun...did she
violate her promise to Mat by her actions when he left to
capture that woman? I mean by more or less bribing the show
person and specifically putting Mat's name on the list of
those not protected; she promised, more or less, not to
corrupt his followers and not to betray him, in addition to
not trying to escape.
From:
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xammer99
Member Member # 71208
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posted January 16, 2003 10:34 AM
- in
Winter's Heart, it was mentioned that they'd have to get in
contact with the Black Sister in the Palace to get something
done, and then soon after mentioned that Sareitha was out of
the palace for some business. So definately she's
black.
- The meet between Rand & DotNM. Pure Setup
by Suroth. She has the male Adam, and this is her chance to
get him within arms reach. Show up wearing the bracelets, walk
near and clamp it on.
- Egwene. That the OP was used as
a weapon against her and the crew shows that it was a
darkfriend in waiting. That the sisters had to actually go
into the battle at Dumai's Wells and get people attacking them
directly to be able to attack them back with the power shows
that you can't attack people back on the notion that they
MIGHT be attackin you. So it has to be a darkfriend thing. At
a guess, Halima set it up. She is in place to know about stuff
goin on. Also some possibilities here: a) the people were
surprised it was the Amryllin because they didn't think the
information was relyable. Who'd believe the Amryllin herself
would go out and do this sorta stuff? b) The women who
could make the stuff were being eliminated, thereby forcing
Egwene into action herself and setting her up to be
captured. c) Getting the information outta anyone is no
problem for Halima, Saidin & Compulsion means there are no
secrets in the camp from Halima. d) If Leanne was taken
too, then cances are it was Siuan who got Compulsed or is
working for the other side. e) If Leanne makes it back and
failed to seal the harbor, then she either got compulsed or is
working for the other side. f) Or neither d & e and it
was just manuevering the pieces to get Egwene herself to do
it.
-------------------- Xammer
From:
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Jak Shadow
Member Member # 39941
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posted January 16, 2003 01:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery: Just a
minor correction - Delana is a known Black Ajah; Romanda is
not.
Thanks Dave, couldn't remember her name and was too
lazy to look it up ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Crossroads MAJOR SPOILERS disscussion (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- "I'm not feeling
very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta
Green, GenCon UK
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Vorpal
Warhammer Member Member
# 103669
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posted January 16, 2003 02:12 PM
I agree
that it was probably Halima who betrayed Egwene at the end.
She could have learned of the cuendillar plan during one of
Egwene's nightly headache massages. After waking from those,
she can't remember her dreams, so it's likely that compulsion
was used on her to make her spill her guts and forget she said
anything.
We know Mesaana wasn't masquerading as
Danelle, since Alviarhin didn't recognize her when Shadar
Haran got rid of her disguise.
Most importantly, we got
some face time with Logain. Completely awesome.
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
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posted January 17, 2003 04:05 AM
All points
on Halima stand to reason, that leaves only one question, what
is going to happen to the Amrylin? It is possible that Mat & Co. had returned
to Ebou Dar by the time that Dobraine and Party went to
negotiate, but we'll have to wait to find out. I don't think
that Tuon betrayed Mat, because the notice is a list of who
is specifically protected and my guess is that Mat is
listed as her husband . Though that still leaves the question of whether
or not the male Adam is going to be used (side note: Suroth
can't use it, because she is not a suldam). My other
question is whether SH is really who Alviarin thinks he is.
She was very sure, but we all know that even when the
characters are very sure, it can be quite the
opposite. Leanne never went across the river with Egwene.
Suian said that she had returned to camp before Egwene ever
walked out of the
tent.
-------------------- Stupidity is not a crime,
so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me. I've never
heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He
was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and
start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a
nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people,
you know to watch your back! My web page, new &
improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tam al'Moff
Member Member # 79189
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posted January 17, 2003 05:11 AM
with
regards to the incidents at the camp does the Sense Residue
feat as it is written in the rules allow the player to sense
the other half of the one
power??
-------------------- If it aint broke don't
fix it.
From:
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted January 17, 2003 05:47 AM
It was said
that she "tested for a resonance" and found lots of
saidin "more than what was used of saidar. So
maybe it was a weave instead of Sense Residue...or maybe a
specialized use of Sense Residue with a much higher DC than
normal? From the discription it sounded like she was able to
see the weave originally used for saidar, but only felt
the amount for saidin so she wouldn't be able to "see"
it like the normal use of this
power.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Friend of the
Dork Member Member
# 58798
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posted January 17, 2003 06:18 AM
Yes, what
is that testing for ressonance thing the Aes Sedai do at
Halima's victims? Moghedien was supposed to teach Egwene,
Nyna and Elayne how to detect a man's channeling, did she
actually do it?
How common is the ability to Sense
Residue?
Hmm, was going to answer questions, but since
they're already answered... Sareitha supporting Mellar is
suspicious, yet why did Merilille leave the way she did? And
with whom? Delana is the only confirmed black among the
rebels, and are we sure that Aran'gar alias Halima (alias
Balthamel?) is any good with Compulsion? It seems to me that
Forsaken, even with their incredibly abilities have
weaknesses. Some are quite bad at healing, for
instance.
I suspect that Romanda's rival (Lelaine?) is
Black, as she has power yet seems nice... Darkfriends are
usually good at appearing nice...
Thank god Egwene did
that foolish stunt of hers, the book wouldn't have been very
exiting without it. Don't get me wrong, i love the books, and
the game, but 30 pages of taking on and taking off a dress,
isn't my idea of fun.
Logain seems like the good guy,
and he'll be taking over the Black Tower once Taim is deposed
and dead. Perhaps the ancient title of Tamyrlin will be
his? Go Logain!
But are the Aes Sedai bonded to him
and his followers helpless slaves, or have they come to terms
with their fates?
And when will Elaida's prophecy about
the Tower and the Amyrlin (egwene) come true? "The white
tower will be whole again(...)whole and stronger than ever.
Rand Al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her
anger."
The White Tower has suffered alot lately, not
only because of the coup and rebellion, but Aes Sedai as a
whole has lost credit. People have seen them scurrying like
novices for the Dragon Reborn, jumping at the sight of
Windfinders, asking permission to speak from the Aiel Wise
Ones, leashed by the Seanchan. What's next? Sold to Shara
as cattle for the Ayyad?
They need to gain proper
respect again, from common people, nobles, Asha'man and the
other Channeling
traditions.
-------------------- Darkfriend,
Darkfriend, what'ya gonna do? a what'ya gonna do when they
come for you....
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Friend of the
Dork Member Member
# 58798
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posted January 17, 2003 06:22 AM
Sense
Residue feat is almost a must for initates in the game, as
they will almost always succeed at a Weavesight check on
medium to high level.
I almost don't bother to have
the initate in my game to make those checks, she's as good as
weavesight as the Woodsman/Warder is at hiding with his
warders cloak.
Checking for ressonance of Saidin could
easily be a weave.
-------------------- Darkfriend,
Darkfriend, what'ya gonna do? a what'ya gonna do when they
come for you....
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Tam al'Moff
Member Member # 79189
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posted January 17, 2003 06:36 AM
Apart from
the weave (weaves??) to create cuendillar did anyone spot any
new uses of the one power? I can't think of any off hand.
Also when Egwene or other AS have to walk across the
mud between wooden walkways why don't they make a path using
harden air?? Why aren't the paths themselves all made of tied
off harden air? It would have saved a lot of trees to be used
instead for firewood and there would have been no need for all
that manual labour laying
planks.
-------------------- If it aint broke don't
fix it.
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
|
posted January 17, 2003 07:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Friend of the
Dork: Moghedien was supposed to teach Egwene,
Nyna and Elayne how to detect a man's channeling, did she
actually do it?
Nope, Mog laughingly mentioned to another
forsaken at some point, that all she taught them (for
detecting a man's channeling) was a way to cause themselves
headaches because the weave was so complex.
quote:
How common is the ability to Sense
Residue?
Not very. Think about it. When the rebels
sent an expedition to visit the Shadar Logoth site, they sent
five Aes Sedai. The ones with the ability to Sense Residue
the best. If only five have it strong enough to be
considered of use, how many do you think as a
whole would have such an ability?
Also, Sense
Residue was removed from the list of prerequisites to enter
any channeling PrC. Precisely because it is a rare ability.
Read the scene when Aviendha first uses unraveling, she also
mentions that see can Sense Residues of weaves, and that "not
many others can".
quote:
Sareitha supporting Mellar is suspicious,
yet why did Merilille leave the way she did? And with
whom?
She left with Talene, the Sea Folk
apprentice Windfinder who wanted to enter the White Tower.
Now, where she took her...the White Tower, to find the rebel
camp, or to an independant group...we don't
know.
quote:
But are the Aes Sedai bonded to him and
his followers helpless slaves, or have they come to terms
with their fates?
They are only helpless when it comes to
harming an Asha'man, or any of the other things they were told
explicitly not to do. So far, we've only seen into the minds
of two of these Aes Sedai. Toveine definately has not 'come to
terms' with it...she got a note snuck out describing the
situation to a Red agent. Gabrelle, Logain's other Aes Sedai,
is taking the advantage of learning all she can about male
channelers...while also becoming ingraciated to Logain to
learn Black Tower secrets/plans.
quote:
They need to gain proper respect again,
from common people, nobles, Asha'man and the other
Channeling traditions.
It will happen, eventually. The problem is that they
always retained power by seeming all-knowing and all-powerful.
Those who were intimidated by that facade (the Aiel, Sea Folk,
the Kin), see that is not true and, as human-nature is wont to
do, take out their
anger-at-themselves-for-irrationally-fearing-something-that-they-reason-did-not-deserve-it
on them. It will all reach an equilibrium at some
point...Egwene will unite all the channeling traditions
together and it will work out.
quote:
Originally posted by Tam al'Moff: Apart
from the weave (weaves??) to create cuendillar did anyone
spot any new uses of the one power? I can't think of any off
hand.
There was the new weave to check on the
health of a baby and its mother. I forgot what they called
it.
[ January 17, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited
by: Freya
]
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
From:
dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002 |
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xammer99
Member Member # 71208
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posted January 17, 2003 11:54 AM
quote:
And when
will Elaida's prophecy about the Tower and the Amyrlin
(egwene) come true? "The white tower will be whole
again(...)whole and stronger than ever. Rand Al'Thor will
face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger."
Has this already occured in Lord of Chaos? He faced her
envoys, and he sure as hell knew her
anger.
-------------------- Xammer
From:
Lafayette, IN | Registered: Mar 2002
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted January 17, 2003 03:34 PM
The weave
for checking on a pregnant mother is called carressing the
Child. I was wondering if the weave called Threading the
Needle in UtDB could be modified by somebody who has the Sense
Residue (those rare few) to allow a channeler to "Sense the
Resonance" of the opposite source
saidin/saidar.
-------------------- Only two things
are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not
sure about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 -
1955)
From:
Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002 |
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Jak Shadow
Member Member # 39941
|
posted January 17, 2003 04:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by xammer99:
quote:
And
when will Elaida's prophecy about the Tower and the
Amyrlin (egwene) come true? "The white tower will be
whole again(...)whole and stronger than ever. Rand Al'Thor
will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger."
Has this already occured in Lord of Chaos? He faced
her envoys, and he sure as hell knew her
anger.
I think the prophecy is to do w/ Egwene, not Elaida and
her Aes Sedai, so it hasn't happened
yet.
-------------------- "I'm not feeling very
well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta
Green, GenCon UK
From:
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finnmckool
Member Member # 112643
|
posted January 17, 2003 07:24 PM
Actually
another point you guys missed. There was another girl
mentioned, who was calling herself the Daughter of the Nine
Moons, and it WASN'T Tuon. The Deathwatch Guard guy and the
Seeker spoke of her. She was probably captured, and Suroth
will probably try and pass her off AS the DotNM. Remember two
things 1) the public doesn't know she's been kidnapped 2) Rand
(nor anyone else of his crew for that matter, and few people
on this side of the Aryyth) have MET Tuon. I do agree it's a
plot to get Rand in arm's reach. But I'm betting it will fail,
and Mat will show up with Tuon before too long, and Suroth
will be handed the strangling cord.
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grolm
Member Member # 91614
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posted January 18, 2003 01:47 AM
1 Masuri
used the power on the darkhound tracks to learn about the
pack. 2 Flinn had a weave to take away or lessen the grief
over a fallen warder. 3 the previously mentioned caressing
the child. 4 the also previously mentioned making of
cuendillar.
-------------------- Something profound
and disturbing
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Gothenem
Member Member # 119831
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posted January 18, 2003 02:10 AM
Who ever
said Tuon was MISSING???
Sure Mat and company kidnapped
her (or thought they did), but it IS possible that Tuon set
them up. Maybe Suroth knows the location of Tuon, that's why
she hasn't been labelled as missing.
Or Suroth is
pulling some BS on Rand.
-------------------- When
all others fail, I come to the rescue (But I usually fail too
...) Member of the nothing sucks foundation
#0000076
From:
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted January 18, 2003 06:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by grolm: 1 Masuri used
the power on the darkhound tracks to learn about the
pack. 2 Flinn had a weave to take away or lessen the
grief over a fallen warder.
The weave that Masuri used on the tracks of the
darkhounds was Trace out of the core
rulebook.
Could you quote the page number of the
example for what Flinn did, I don't recall him using the power
for that, but I very well could be wrong....I have only read
it once so far ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Crossroads MAJOR SPOILERS disscussion (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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