Author
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Topic: Munchkin and
Min/Maxing |
Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 29, 2003 01:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell: A
character level 5 Wilder/Initiate qualifies no matter what
for their traditions prestige class for their 6th level.
Even if it is Wilder 4/Initiate 1. For a Wilder to make it
to their prestige class they need 6 character levels first
for the feats, unless they take a level of
Initiate.
Of course a Wilder/Initiate at level 20 is
more powerful than a clvl 20 wilder or a little stronger
than a clvl 20 initiate but not much. It is easy to
overchannel successfully everytime with Skill Emphasis
(Concentration) and maxxed out Concentration. The only thing
a Wilder/Initiate has over either is a third channeling
attribute (so they get like a bonus 1st and 2nd level weave
slot per day... big whoop, but that assumes they have a 14
in the third attribute)
And then there is the age old
fact about Player Characters: The PC's are above average,
they have abilities above and beyond the average person of
their niche. Just like stacking skills, attributes, feats,
and class abilities.
The combination is only messed
up if the Wilder goes Initiate and still uses Wisdom to
determine Highest Weave slots usable. Although I do think it
is weird for an Initiate to go into Wilder, that is like a
Fighter becoming a Barbarian while he is away from his
master...
It might be possible that the Aes Sedai of the White
Tower where legimate worry about female Wilder not have some
traiming in channeling since the wilder's donot want to goto
the tower, the tower will come to then as Aes Sedai being
knick out of the tower they say. Once they are accept by
the female Wilder they informal train then and
they also help the one that might be kill around the time
the channeling abilites appear.
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted April 29, 2003 08:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by
JosephKell: Channelers get 4 + int modifier skill
points a level, and only 2 skills on thier list are must
haves (Concentration and Weavesight; composure is really
only necessary for Wilders without Eliminate Block that need
to make all those checks). And then there is the Background
skill (get one at level + 3 ranks). So there are at least 3
skill points per level to flush out a character's
story.
Amusing. I've got a male wilder. The only skill I have
maxed out right now is Composure. +1 to hit for 5 rounds is a
pretty handy thing, and is something there's usually time to
do before we get into combat. The bonuses to my Cha skills are
pretty damn handy, too. Concentration...not so much. My
character has overchanneled all of twice in his life, the
first time he really missed his check and so he hasn't wanted
to try that again. Still Concentration is only 1 rank away
from being maxed out because of those all-important
combat-while-casting rolls.
Weavesight? Who needs
it?
I mean, really...my character has encountered
exactly 1 other male channeler, and he was in a sack at the
time. Weavesight ain't doing jack for me, and I don't have
many ranks in it because that doesn't make sense. I've put my
ranks in a bunch of other places, skills I've had a lot of
practice using in the campaign. Gather Information. Heal.
Ride.
I'd rather play a balanced character than a
min-maxed one any day of the week. ![[Big Grin]](Wizards_Com Boards Munchkin and Min-Maxing (2)_fichiers/biggrin.gif)
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Lord Schpungus
Member Member # 111502
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posted April 29, 2003 08:59 AM
On the
other hand, it's good to have a character who's good at what
he does. Eventually you will meet male channelers with weaves
you will want to learn.
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted April 29, 2003 09:50 AM
Of course I
will. But does it make sense to be upping that skill
right now? Not in my opinion.... When I start interacting with
other Male channelers, then I'll start dumping points into
Weavesight like mad...because that's how people
work.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted April 29, 2003 05:00 PM
I wrote
that thing about 2 skills to max from a min/max perspective.
Composure is useful skill, like listen or spot. Concentration
and Weavesight are mandatory for a min/maxed channeler: Why
risk wasting (or increase chance of wasting) an opportunity to
learn a rare or lost weave? (Power Gamer's answer: "Never
have, never will.")
My point was that it is possible to
min/max and have a unique character with its own stat
supported background story (which is supported by the
background skill, selected skills from the points per level,
and original background feat).
Heck, part of the story
line for a min/maxxed character could include the desire to be
powerful: . Kyle doesn't remember exactly when he realized
he could touch Saidin, but he does remember how good it feels
to know he is better than those around him. His life as a
farmer was nothing but one boring day after another, and he
quickly decided to leave and discover what the Wheel really
had instore for him. . Kyle struggled day by day to deepen
the well of Saidin he could tap, and as the well deeped, so
did his madness. He is now certain he is the most powerful
channeler in the world, and seeks to prove this fact to
everyone.
Now obviously such a character would probably
snap in two if faced with an adversary such as Rand or the
forsaken, but it is a pretty accurate story for a min/maxxed
male channeler.
Disclaimer: This is not HOW to make a
male channeler, it is just another example of how it is
possible to min/max and have substance. Those out there that
say this game is about Role-Playing, and that Min/Maxxing
cheapens the game are just jealous that they can't do both.
![[Razz]](Wizards_Com Boards Munchkin and Min-Maxing (2)_fichiers/tongue.gif)
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
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have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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Tristifer
Member Member # 128380
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posted April 30, 2003 01:39 PM
i agree
with JosephKell. a good roleplayer can justify min/maxing.
plus a good player knows the rules and how to use them to his
advantage, IMO.
as to the question about the
wilder/initiate combo. i always related the "sparker" or
person inborn with the talent with the wilder, and a person
that can learn to touch the source with the initiate class. i
think wizards did a crappy job with the write-up's of the
major characters in the back of the WoT book. anyone that has
the inborn talent of touching the source should have at least
1 level of Wilder. -Elayne and Egewene should be
multiclass Wilder/Initiates. the fact that this has an
advantage is because E&E are stronger in the Power than
most other Aes Sedai.
The bonus' for multi-classing
this way is how(IMO) WotC designed the power rating for the
channelers, other than bonus weaves for ability scores. the
more powerful channelers have the bonus' for being
multi-classed. in the books, the more powerful channelers are
usually people with the spark. This is not ALWAYS the case. an
initiate(person trained) has higher ability scores for their
bonus weaves will be more "powerful" than a wilder(sparker)
with lower ability scores.
-------------------- Eth
Sularus Oth Mithas Dovie'andi se tovya
sagain Tai'shar American
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted May 01, 2003 04:59 AM
About two
year ago I have major sturger done at Thomson Hosital in the
top 100 hosital in America out of 5000 hosital in
American. I have than slowly learch aprition that enflame
apart of my large colon. It was done by the chief sturgeon of
Texas Tech than medical school in text done by students ready
to get they degrees in sturgertry. In case right this you
would want your sturgeon to have max out skills or near max
out skill. The Chief Sturgeon play role-playing game like
D&D and Etc's.
[ May 01, 2003, 05:25 AM:
Message edited by: Sophiathegreen ]
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted May 01, 2003 06:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Sophiathegreen: About
two year ago I have major sturger done at Thomson Hosital in
the top 100 hosital in America out of 5000 hosital in
American. I have than slowly learch aprition that enflame
apart of my large colon. It was done by the chief sturgeon
of Texas Tech than medical school in text done by students
ready to get they degrees in sturgertry.
![[Dubious]](Wizards_Com Boards Munchkin and Min-Maxing (2)_fichiers/dubious.gif)
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted May 01, 2003 11:58 AM
She's
trying to say that if you look at real life, there are people,
and quite a few of them, who would, in game terms, have one or
two maxed out skills. Surgeons, mechanics, electricians, most
chemists, many musicians, etc.
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted May 02, 2003 02:09 PM
Who
multiclasses as a Wilder/Initiate though? Unless you roll your
stats you don't have many high scores... A Wilder/Initiate
needs a high Int to channel high weaves! Or, if you want to
make a TOTALLY one sided character (which could be explained
as being a weak-wussy man/woman...).
Oh I thought of an
idea: Aiel Wilder, take Disciplined as the Background (+2
concentration checks, +1 will saves; this is right up a
madman's alley, concentration to overchannel and willpower to
make madness checks after overchanneling too much...) (Aiel
can't be one-sided to Int, Wis, and Cha; Only the strong
survive in the Three-Fold land)
Or, for a Wetlander:
Cosmopolitain, select Concentration, then take whatever flavor
class and still be able to max out Concentration by level 5
(for 8 ranks to take a tradition class for clvl
6).
-------------------- Instant Message me @
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have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted May 02, 2003 03:13 PM
I disagree
that Egwene should have a level of wilder. She had not yet
touched the source when Moiraine showed her, and she was
guided in her lessons from there, just like an initiate.
Elayne also recieved training from the very first, as she was
sent to be tested and continuously trained from then on. Just
because they WOULD have manifested their powers on their own
doesn't mean they did.
-------------------- "Death
comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark
One, and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted May 03, 2003 02:54 AM
If I was to
created than Yellow Ajah I would max out her heal
skill(conventable medical skill no
weave), diplomacy(bedside manner(communicat with patient
and get infro from patient and give patient infro in a way
they can understand) to calm down upset
patient), knowledge(healing,herbs,drugs,illness),
Perform(slight of hand and other useful entermaint skill to
include patient morale which can help healing) what I than
getting at than yellow Ajah might be in than place with alot
of people needing healing an alimit amount of weaves slots, so
they treat minor illness and cuts with conventable
medical arts.
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted May 05, 2003 07:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell: Who
multiclasses as a Wilder/Initiate though? Unless you roll
your stats you don't have many high scores... A
Wilder/Initiate needs a high Int to channel high weaves! Or,
if you want to make a TOTALLY one sided character (which
could be explained as being a weak-wussy
man/woman...).
I believe (although I'm not certain, anyone else please
correct me) that the Wil/Ini multi gets to pick whichever of
the two Atts is higher for the purposes of how high a weave
they can cast.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted May 05, 2003 11:31 AM
The book
says that the Wilder/Initiate channels as an Initiate, so Int
is important.
So I can see going Initiate -> Wilder,
but Wilder -> Initiate seems weakening (unless it is a
powergame character that has 15 Int, 14 Wis, 13
Cha).
Any GM that lets a player use Wis still is just
asking to get abused.
-------------------- Instant
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character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted May 05, 2003 01:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell: The book
says that the Wilder/Initiate channels as an Initiate, so
Int is important. <snip> Any GM that lets a
player use Wis still is just asking to get
abused.
*shrug* The FAQ says that in any instance where two
features conflict, the multi gets the greater of the two, and
it makes sense, besides. There's no reason they should
suddenly be less (sometimes significantly less) capable,
IMO.
But then, I also don't think a 13, 15, 14 (or vice
versa) is powergamed in a point buy character, as that's what
mine had. He had 10s in Str and Dex (average) and 12 in Con
(slightly above average). If you don't have any att. penalties
at start, then you're not powergamed,
IMO.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Xotli
Member Member # 91261
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posted May 06, 2003 05:30 PM
quote:
The only
thing a Wilder/Initiate has over either is a third
channeling attribute ...
Well, I think the primary complaint of abuse is the
free feats you get for multi-classing. Let's say, for
instance, that you were determined to get all 5 affinities,
and then start working on talents. A Wil 4 has 4 affinities
and 1 talent. An Ini 4 has 5 affinities and 2 talents. But an
Ini 2/Wil 2 has 5 affinities and 4 talents. So it's like you
got two free feats, plus the three abilities contributing to
bonus weaves.
But I have to say my whole concept of the
difference between initiate and wilder differs dramatically
from the rest of the board's. Everyone seems to be talking
about whether the spark was inborn or not, or whether the
person first channeled spontaneously or with a guide. But
classes represent development. Classes have to do with
what what you're learning and how you're progressing right
now, not how you started.
My take on it is that the
initiate advances by study under someone more knowledgeable,
whereas the wilder advances by intuitive leaps and bounds,
feeling out his/her own strengths and weaknesses. The
advantage of the initiate should be that there are going to be
certain things you just can not learn by fumbling around in
the dark. The advantage of the wilder should be perhaps being
a little stronger, and that you have at least the possibility
of discovering things that no teacher could have taught
you.
My party right now has two channelers, one of whom
is a Wise One's apprentice. Now, since not one single day of
the campaign (thus far) has actually ocurred in the Waste, she
obviously has had no chance to further her formal training. At
3rd level, I actually made her switch to Wilder (well,
to be more precise, I told her she couldn't advance as
Initiate until she spent some more time studying under an
established channeler).
As for the typical problems of
being overpowered, we have a heavy emphasis on roleplaying
over combat, so I've never had to worry about the fact that
she now has this huge quantity of weaves: she's never
exhausted all of them, even before she crossed over. I keep a
pretty tight rein on the channelers by reminding them of the
dangers of a wary populace (for instance, right now they're in
Tear, where channeling is outlawed), and also two of the party
members are pretty suspicious of the One Power in general, so
it behooves the two channelers to keep a low profile even when
there's no one else around.
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Fisher-King
Member Member # 140220
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posted May 11, 2003 06:51 PM
Just one
question...
Since when is 15, 14, 13 a powergamed
character? A 13 is barely higher than an average stat, and 15,
14, 13 offers no bonuses higher than +2.
Admittedly,
the system in WoT tends toward less-powerful characters than
DND does, but at the same time, PCs are supposed to be heroes.
A cut above the average. Does Mat Cauthon have an 8? Rand
al'Thor? Thom Merrilin? Didn't think so. If you want to
experience the Wheel of Time universe, you have to approach it
from the same perspective as the characters in it. Not from
the perspective of Basel Gill, but from that of Lan
Mandragoran. You're a hero, not an innkeeper.
Sorry,
little annoyance I have with people assuming that those who
enjoy having characters with high stats are power-gamers. It's
always nice to throw down the dice and see those three
sixes...
And don't deny you get the same grin on your
face that I do if it happens twice with the same
character.
-------------------- "You ain't gettin'
me on your goal row!"
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Ualaa
Member Member # 138992
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posted May 11, 2003 09:16 PM
Any game is
about having fun; if both the players and DM/GM are enjoying
themselves then all is good.
A wilder is someone who
initially learnt to channel on their own. An initiate is
someone who learnt to channel in an organization such as the
White Tower. Every Aes Sedai who came to the White Tower and
had their block broken (at least in the stories) then learnt
as an Initiate thereafter.
From a roleplaying point of
view, multiclassing from a Wilder to an Initiate makes
complete sense, but the reverse is not true. Each person can
do their own thing in their games.
I have a setting
which is basically my world. Its pretty close to normal Core
classes 3rd edition. I however allow Wheel of Time, Everquest
Roleplaying Game and a couple others together, with the caveat
that classes from one book are pretty much limited to
information from their setting book. It works for my players.
If multiclassing a wilder/initiate works for your group, more
power to your group.
-------------------- ~
Ualaa
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silentdaito
Member Member # 140454
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posted May 12, 2003 12:13 AM
Actually
from what I remember Nynaeve channeled as a wilder for quite
sometime after she went to the White Tower. Case in point
being that she didn't lose her block until far after going to
the White Tower. And that is something that only a Wilder
has. I would tend to agree that a GM should not allow A
Wilder/Initiate multiclassing as it is blatantly out of line
with the story. You never here of Wilder's suddenly channeling
in a different way just because they acquire some formal
training. Its a lot like either learning something for
yourself or having someone teach it to you. It doesn't mean
that your going to suddenly rethink the way you do something
to exactly the way that person did it.
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Sgiathach
Member Member # 139739
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posted May 12, 2003 06:46 AM
Warning:
I'm about to make a totally unqualified remark now, as I don't
have any experience with the WOT magic system. However,
sometimes an "untainted" opinion can be useful. Proceed at
your own risk.
In D&D, certain multiclass combos are
ruled out or limited by certain requirements: - by
alignment requirements (and WOT got rid of alignment I know).
Yes, A barbarian/monk would have 50ft base speed, but a
barbarian must not be lawful and a monk must be lawful. -
Some classes are just For Keeps. If you take a level in a
different class, you'll never be able to take another level in
the previous class (paladin, monk) - usually multiclassing
leaves you with some gap in your stats.
Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian(/Rogues) may be melee monsters, but
they'll have a Will save of a newborn baby.
Going more
into the direction of spellcasters: - spellcaster levels
are not cumulative when calculating spells per day. For WOT,
it would mean a Ini5/Wil5 would lose two spell levels compared
to Wil10.
As I said, I don't have any experience with
it, but maybe one of the following suggestions could prove
useful:
- A character with levels in Initiate cannot
take any levels in Wilder. Thus, the step from Wilder to
Initiate is a one-way road. - change the Caster Level rule
so that they are not cumulative but only the highest class
counts (which is rather harsh). - and have the ex-wilder
lose their most wilder-specific abilities, much like a D&D
barbarian who becomes lawful loses his ability to rage.
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted May 16, 2003 03:11 AM
In D&D
not all spellcaster cast or learn they spell the same way. The
Cleric and Paladin pray for their spells. The Bard use music
to cast her spells. The druid is one with nature. The wizard
learn their magic from books and mentors and spell research.
While the Sorcerer learn her magic as inborn talent. They
all are total different from each other in detail. In wheel of
Time Channeling the power is the same for Wilder and Initiate.
Than 4th level Wilder/2nd level initiate has than 6th level
caster level for effect which use caster level to figour out
effects.
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted May 16, 2003 06:22 PM
Two
comment.
1. For the actual "physics" of a wilder vs. an
initiate in the books, the Seanchan are a perfect example.
Damane are wilders, they have the inborn ability to channel.
Sul'dam are "not-wilders", they have the ability to be taught
to channel. The Seanchan test for both, using the adam, and
file them accordingly.
2. Note that I call the sul'dam
"not-wilders" instead of "initiates" because Initiates are a
class, or "way of life". Xotli has it right in that the
classes are distiguished by how channelers are spending their
time as opposed to how they were born.
If you look at
all the featured of both classes (saving throws, AtB, DfB,
feats, etc.) Wilders indicate channelers who are learning on
their own and developing their physical skills as much as they
are channeling. The Initiate class is built toward those who
are being formally trained by someone. You lose out on your
saves, attacks, etc., but you gain a bunch of channeling
feats.
In the Books, Egwene has the inborn ability
(she's a wilder), but because Moiraine started teaching her
before she learned to channel on her own, she is an Initiate
1. She never had to learn channeling without a mentor, so she
never became a Wilder (no block, etc.)
So I think you
can freely multiclass between the two depending on if you are
being formally trained or are out on your own. The only caveot
I would add is that I would remove the extra affinity and
talent you get simply for multiclassing, but keep everything
else the same.
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
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posted May 19, 2003 06:47 AM
I think
there's a good reason here not to use the term wilder in
reference to someone who has the spark. Call them sparkers,
just so they're not confused with the class. I thought you'd
done exactly that, and wrote this long-ass screed, when really
you hadn't done anything of the sort.
[ May 19,
2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: The Great Gray Skwid
]
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Tristifer
Member Member # 128380
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posted May 19, 2003 08:24 AM
i have a
question for everyone who is against allowing characters to
multi-class from Wilder to Initiate-
how do you explain
how a 'sparker' is more powerful with the OP than an character
that can only be trained to use the
OP?
-------------------- Eth Sularus Oth
Mithas Dovie'andi se tovya sagain Tai'shar
American
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted May 19, 2003 09:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tristifer: how do you
explain how a 'sparker' is more powerful with the OP than an
character that can only be trained to use the
OP?
This is not a rule. It is a
trend.
HTH.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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