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Author Topic: Channelers Balanced?
AvaronGansdell
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posted January 22, 2003 10:40 AM      Profile for AvaronGansdell   Email AvaronGansdell    Edit/Delete Post
No Not if channelers are balanced to non channelers but if the two standard channeler classes are balanced to each other.

both have the same BAB both have two saves at +12 and one at +9 (though I find it odd that a wilder who is suppose to over channel alot has a weaker fort save)

after that they split
Wilder gets better HD by a bit
and slightly better defense bonuses
wilders also at lower level get access to higher level spells faster and have greater numbers of low level spells.
Wilders also must use a feat to remove there block.

Initites get many more channeling feats they also get greater numbers of high level spells and learn more weaves per level.

all in all I belive Initites get the greater bonuse more feats are very important in a magic system where your access to spells is baced on the feats you have. and there ability to cast more high level spells is very powerful.

Wilders may have many low level spells but those are the spells that most channelers get bonus spells for anyways.

Any notes? comments? exc?

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted January 22, 2003 11:30 AM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
Initiates come out in the lead by 10-13 level before that it is a trade off.

BTB multi wilder/init are so unbalanced it is retarded. A true munckin combo.

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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
TheOnePowerman5000
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posted January 22, 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for TheOnePowerman5000   Email TheOnePowerman5000    Edit/Delete Post
Wilders definitely win out at lower levels with overchanneling bonuses and more weaves in their weaves per day chart. If you notice, most wilders in the series turn into initiates or Aes Sedai or whatever their race's respective channeling PrC is. Thus, wilders and initiates are balanced.

Also, you must realize that overchanneling bonus is a big plus for the wilder. Overchanneling is big! You can use it to boost your weaves levels higher than normal, complete mundane tasks without using a weave slot, the list continues... This, coupled with the extra slots and universal affinities for a few weave levels makes the initiate almost weaker than the wilder. However, the block is a balancing factor to a degree. Also, initiates are likely to know far more weaves than wilders (they are trained formally, thus they will know almost every low-level weave available), whereas the wilders only know a limited number of weaves until they begin their formal training. Personally, I like roleplaying wilders more than initiates.

And to reply to Eosin, just don't let your players multiclass between wilder and initiate! It doesn't really make sense to let them; it was very hard for Nynaeve to learn things differently at the tower when she went there, and she still had her block (the book also stats her out as a wilder... I think...).

[ January 22, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: TheOnePowerman5000 ]

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From: Harwinton, CT | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted January 22, 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
It is true that about level 10 the roles of Wilder and Initiate general bad ass is switched. But what is better than both the wilder and the initiate is a Wilder/Initiate. Because you have to have 5 levels before you can take a prestige class (concentration 8 ranks) you can get all the feat prereqs for Asha'man by level 3 (wilder 1/Initiate 2, and still have eliminate block at level 3, thus Wilder is first) so you have 2 more levels to gain either other classes if there are other prereqs or more likely two more levels of Initiate to gain another channeler feat.
Example:
Level 1: (Wilder 1) For Asha'man Dedicated you could take Sword Proficiency at level 1 wilder. You also get a Talent and an Affinity.
Level 2: (W1/I1) Since you took a level of Initiate you get another talent and another Affinity (look at the White Tower FAQ) and as an Initiate 1 you get a bonus channeling feat: So that can be either tie of weave or multiweave.
Level 3: (W1/I2) Another Bonus channeling feat! So that is the other one of the one above. And since it is level 3 you get a free-choice feat so take eliminate block Or you could reverse the sword proficiency with this one at level 1!
Level 5: (W1/I4) Bonus Channeling Feat: Were you looking at that other talent or affinity? well you can take it!
Level 6: Congratulation you have earned the Gold Dragon.

That wasn't so bad was it? Same thing for Aes Sedai though, but while they don't need the sword, they still have to take 5 class levels (to get to a max skill rank of 8) before they can take the PrC.

And yes Wilder/Initiates are munchkins... but who doesn't munchkin. I however am a strong believer that Initiates shouldn't be able to take Wilder are a class unless they are going to swear off their tradition (sort of like, once an Initiate there is no turning back, but if you do, you can't turn around again).

[ January 22, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

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From: California | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eosin_the_Red
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posted January 22, 2003 11:52 AM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
I do not. I do realize that some people in the books should be Wilder/Initiates. If someone has not done the math and is asking questions, gm to gm, a warning that 90% of all mc wilder/init are tricking the character out in a time honored munckin way is approp.

I would be curious if anybody has done a side by side comparison (listing all relevant class abilities) beyond 8th level (where I stopped). Even more interesting would be wilder vs init vs wild/init - I never did that one to see how bad it was, other that understanding that all the way to the molecular level it was a hosed combination.

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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eosin_the_Red
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posted January 22, 2003 11:56 AM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
Oh yea, overchanneling is not that big. Init have good fort save and wilders have average fort saves. wilders only have +3 by 5-6th level and since the init has 4 more feats and 30 more skill points at that level, burning a feat for great fort is not such a big deal.

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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted January 22, 2003 12:28 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red:
Oh yea, overchanneling is not that big. Init have good fort save and wilders have average fort saves. wilders only have +3 by 5-6th level and since the init has 4 more feats and 30 more skill points at that level, burning a feat for great fort is not such a big deal.

Don't forget Skill Emphasis Concentration, which is probably better anyway, as your concentration check is easier and if you succeed at it you don't risk the other ugly side effects.

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mrtauntaun
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posted January 22, 2003 12:53 PM      Profile for mrtauntaun   Email mrtauntaun    Edit/Delete Post
To put a balance on the Wilder/Initiate thingie, in my campaign once you become an initiate, you can not go back to being a Wilder. Also, you key ability for weaves changes from wisdom to intelligence. So sure, you get 2 free feats effectively, but my characters have to decide whether it's worth it to them.
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JosephKell
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posted January 22, 2003 12:59 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mrtauntaun:
To put a balance on the Wilder/Initiate thingie, in my campaign once you become an initiate, you can not go back to being a Wilder. Also, you key ability for weaves changes from wisdom to intelligence. So sure, you get 2 free feats effectively, but my characters have to decide whether it's worth it to them.

I am assuming you mean if the tradition responsibilities are worth the class. And I won't state my opinion (but if you look at the Joseph character at Wotmania.com you will probably see where my channeler lies)

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Kirath O'Larthen
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posted January 22, 2003 01:11 PM      Profile for Kirath O'Larthen      Edit/Delete Post
I think that everything makes sense as it is with the two classes. Sure, the initiate starts over powering the wilder at higher levels, but this really only reflects what happens in the novels anyway (and that's what WoT if for, to be a rpg reflecting what's in the books). The wilder represents learning something on your own, while initiates are learning under training and guidance(not on their own). Both are good in their own way, but in the long run initiates do better, because after all, being taught something helps you learn more quickly and better than on your own.
So are they unbalanced? Well, if someone wanted to be a straight out 20th level wilder, yes, but the wilder most often (probably more often than any other class) will multiclass into something else (Aes Sedai, initiate, even armsman, etc.) which is what they should do (and what they do in the novels.) So the unbalance between the two characters doesn't really hurt the game. After all, if they were completely the same, why would anyone in WoT want to go through the pain and hassle of being a novice and accepted for several years when they are just as good on their own?

From: Springfield, MO | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zellberg
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posted January 22, 2003 10:55 PM      Profile for Zellberg      Edit/Delete Post
Wilders also get a +5 bonus for the Fort rolls when they fail overchanneling
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Eosin_the_Red
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posted January 22, 2003 11:40 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Don't forget Skill Emphasis Concentration
Good call.

quote:
you can not go back to being a Wilder
Why would you want to? The deed has been done, so to speak. You get two feats, keep your overchanneling bonus, Keep the ability to channel outside your talent, get weavesight, bump 2 of your saving throws by 2 points, and get bonus weaves from 3 stats instead of 2. In exchange you spend 1 feat and switch to the initiate spells per day chart. Why would you want to go back?

PS - I would make them keep wisdom as the prime channeling abilty - it limits the min maxing on skill points.

quote:
Wilders also get a +5 bonus for the Fort rolls when they fail overchanneling
But their Fort saves are average and the Initiates are good. It minimizes the advantage.

Some have misunderstood my first point: speaking to the stats alone - the first few levels are a toss up between which is better and it will depend on how you want to play the game. By sixth level the Initiate is clearly pulling ahead and by 10th to 13th the Wilder is a joke. Don't believe me, do the math.

I might look to see how badly the init+wilder chews up the other two.

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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melriken
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posted January 23, 2003 12:15 AM      Profile for Melriken   Email Melriken    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
Level 3: (W1/I2) Another Bonus channeling feat! So that is the other one of the one above. And since it is level 3 you get a free-choice feat so take eliminate block Or you could reverse the sword proficiency with this one at level 1!

actually as per 'official' rules for a wilder to take initiate levels doesnt the character have to already have the 'eliminate block' feat? that would mean that you have to take it at level one.

now some house rules that I have:
1: If a Wilder joins an order (say Aes Sedai) then they can take levels in that PrC they dont need Initiate (and may NOT take it), if an Initiate leaves thier order, well then they cant take levels in that PrC (and dont gain the ability to take levels in Wilder). This rule is also known as the One Base Channeling Class rule.

2: you may NOT take Eliminate block before you are Wilder level 2. you must suffer with the block in play for atleast one level (say a character who is armsman 1, multi to wilder for character level 2 and 3, thus taking eliminate block as thier level 3 feat).

The one consession I am ever willing to make to an wilder turn initiate is that if a player decides that thier character should really be an initiate (or is an initiate and should be a wilder) and that change fits with the way they roleplay the character then I will let them exchange ALL levels in one class for an equal number of levels in the other, if this results in a net loss of feats then they must lose the feats, if it disqualifys them for a feat they may chose a new one (like wilder turn initiate who already took eliminate block). This change would have to happen at level 2 or 3 (possibly 4, but no later).
I may be a strict GM, but my players seem to like the way I run games.

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The prior post is in no way intended to represent the thoughts and/or opinions of the author. Read at your own risk.

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Friend of the Dork
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posted January 23, 2003 06:20 AM      Profile for Friend of the Dork      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, wilder/initiate is the most munchkin combo, no doubt, but i think it is context with the books. You always hear that Wilders who become initates and then Aes Sedai are generally stronger than pure initiate ones, to the initiate's dismay.

However, the initiates control the traditions of the Tower, as well as the attitudes. Aes Sedai and Accepted generally dislike and look down on Wilders as untrained.

This attitude is said to stem from envy, and in many cases that may be right, but it might also be that Wilders have not really parted with the outside world and learned the spirit and traditions of the Tower, and generally have less respect for the tradition.

In any case, multiclassing between the classes should IMHO be the result of a Wilder wanting to be Aes Sedai. They should have to spend a lot of time doing this, less time than the usual 5-10 years, yet the Nyneave frebee entrance to acceptance was simply because she had the most potental ever in the Tower.
The wannabe initiate might give up as well, as she walks from the freedom she has experienced with the adventure group to scrubbing floors and being little more than a servant, while not being allowed to channel half as often as she wishes.

Yet if she is sincere and shows the right spirit, she will be able to step through the three arches ter'angreal, and if she dares to enter it the character in question should be warned of the danger and you could also ask the player "You have to make three consecutive will saves of rising difficulty. If you fail any you can make a new character."
Not to mention having to swear the three Oaths one day which seriously limits you.
Should put of most munchkins [Wink]

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From: Norway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted January 23, 2003 10:49 AM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
actually the rule about eliminate block is that you must have it as or before you take wilder from initiate, if you go from wilder to initiate however you can take eliminate block whenever you feel no not having to use a standard action to make a composure check. And it is level 3 for females, not level 2.

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-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
-If your character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook...
-If you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four charges left...
-If the God of Destiny asks you what will have next...
...you might be a Munchkin.

From: California | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged


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