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Author Topic: Using a Gateway as a Weapon
Matwin Luthair Al'Ra
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posted January 15, 2003 07:39 AM      Profile for Matwin Luthair Al'Ra   Email Matwin Luthair Al'Ra    Edit/Delete Post
After discussing this topic in length with other hard core jordan fans, we came to the conclusion that it would not be terribly hard for a high level character to use this efficiently. Keep in mind we are talking a Lvl. 15 character or higher. First the character must have a high lvl in this type of weave, now for the meat of the question. In the books Jordan describes the level of concentration needed as, the further the distance the more time it takes to get right and also if you have no knowledge of the place you are opening a gateway to the time needed to make a gateway would be great indeed. Also the larger the gateway, the more time and power needed to open it.
Now, if your high lvl. character practiced studiously in his/her down time, to open a very small gateway, maybe a foot in length, and the gateway leads to a place five feet away, then it should not take too much time or power to do this. The more practiced the character becomes the quicker he can do this, i dont mean to say tha this could be used effectively in melee combat but aimed at charging enemies or to attack them from behind. Also, this is a little harder to accomplish, if you stabbed at me with your sword i could, feasibly, open a gateway in front of your target and have the tip of your sword reappear right beside your head, stabbing your-self dead. like i said that would be very hard to do..any comments... [Devilish]

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From: Lubbock | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pikachaos
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posted January 15, 2003 08:14 AM      Profile for Pikachaos      Edit/Delete Post
Although feasible, I think that the amount of control you would need over the appearance of the gateway makes actual use in a combat situation very impractical. If using it against a stationary foe, however, it might be a great tactic indeed!
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Matwin Luthair Al'Ra
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posted January 15, 2003 09:26 AM      Profile for Matwin Luthair Al'Ra   Email Matwin Luthair Al'Ra    Edit/Delete Post
how about using a gateway as a trap?

As the Trolloc horde begins its horrid, blood-curdling charge, Matwin prepares for the weave. The approaching Trollocs snarl and drool in anticipation of the slaughter of young Matwin and his companions. "Ready yourselves!" Matwin breathes to his allies. Unsheathing swords and nocking arrows, his five companions prepare for the inevitable battle. "Stand your ground, dont falter!" Matwin yells over the approaching thunder of hoof and claw. At the last instant a Gateway five spans tall and the same length in width, rotates open slicing the boar headed trolloc in the lead in half. Over half of the Trolloc warparty stumbles through the gateway before realizing what happens. The gateway winks out behind them leaving them trapped blinking in confusion at their new surroundings, the Aiel Waste. And as the gateway closed it severed arms and heads of three more trollocs who happened to be only halfway through the gateway. Ripping his Heron Mark blade from its jeweled scabbard, Matwin begins to work his blade in defense of his life. His companions laugh wildly as they too meet the small remnants of the once mighty trolloc horde.

maybe this is a better use for a gateway.....what do you think? [Devilish]

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JosephKell
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posted January 15, 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Ask yourselves this: "Do you care where the Gateway leads?" If it leads to the place between places, they fall forever! You don't need to know your location if you just open it to another place.

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aleshandre
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posted January 15, 2003 05:19 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
The Gateway as a weapon concept is good in theory, however; in practice would be best as a ranged attack rather than a defensive or offensive attack in melee. The concept of a gateway as a means of reducing the number of enemy is an exelent idea and can have very practical applications in actual combat as described, however against shadowspawn, opening a skimming portal would be an even better idea, or opening a gateway over the world-sea, so that they fall in the depths and drown. The idea of using the gateway in this way can also provide a way to remove a large oncoming army without killing them, such as opening the gateway into a large pit suitable for a temporary prison.

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Dortamur
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posted January 15, 2003 06:24 PM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
Can a gateway be opened horizontally? ie; so said charging army doesn't meet the gateway face on - but edge on.

This is something I cringe at every time someone uses a gateway in the book - the edges. Forget about opening the gateway; what if someone walks into the edge? Even face on, wouldn't half your body go through the gateway, and the other half not, neatly slicing them up?

Even if hitting the edge of a gateway face on hit resistance - it's still a razor-sharp edge between one place and another.

How many horses lost a hoof as they misstepped into a gateway? How many Aiel lost spear tips or elbows as they leapt through too close to an edge?

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Xythlord
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posted January 15, 2003 06:32 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I know the question regarding if Gateways can be made horizontal has been asked several times but here is the diffinitive answer

[From the aol.com Q-and-A session with RJ, 27 June, 1996]:

Question: Can gateways be created at non-right angles to the ground? If not, why not? If yes, why haven't we seen them?

RJ: They can be, and you haven't seen it because there's been no need to do it. And also some of the people who can make gateways don't know how to do it.

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JosephKell
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posted January 15, 2003 06:36 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dortamur:
Can a gateway be opened horizontally? ie; so said charging army doesn't meet the gateway face on - but edge on.

This is something I cringe at every time someone uses a gateway in the book - the edges. Forget about opening the gateway; what if someone walks into the edge? Even face on, wouldn't half your body go through the gateway, and the other half not, neatly slicing them up?

Even if hitting the edge of a gateway face on hit resistance - it's still a razor-sharp edge between one place and another.

How many horses lost a hoof as they misstepped into a gateway? How many Aiel lost spear tips or elbows as they leapt through too close to an edge?

most gateways are opened down to a little below the ground, this is why you hear of the tell-tale sign of a gateway being a fine slice on the ground.

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Dortamur
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posted January 15, 2003 09:22 PM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
most gateways are opened down to a little below the ground, this is why you hear of the tell-tale sign of a gateway being a fine slice on the ground.

Rand's "travel rooms" must have their floor ripped to shreds by now then, given how often gateways are formed there.

Wouldn't it be a bit rude to gate into a majestic palace, slicing up the floor in the process? (I suppose it's more polite than slicing up a servant... [Wink] )

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JosephKell
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posted January 16, 2003 10:51 AM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Well like in Book 10, they generally set aside a part of a courtyard for gates coming in. Opening the gateway a little below the surface is only a good idea if you have what can only be called a flood of people. Those in the front would be pushed through so if they had to step over it wouldn't be so good. But if you are going in a small group and can take your time (relatively) you could open it an inch above the ground.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted January 16, 2003 11:08 AM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dortamur:
Can a gateway be opened horizontally? ie; so said charging army doesn't meet the gateway face on - but edge on.

I don't think it's happened because it's a waste of power. Remember those little razor-sharp ribbons that Asmodean set up for Rand to decapitate himself on when Rand was chasing him in Rhuidean? Simple to make and doesn't take as much power...set those up against a charging army and you're in business.

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KSB snow owl
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posted January 16, 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for KSB snow owl   Email KSB snow owl    Edit/Delete Post
I would probably say that those razor-sharp ribbons were formed with harden air. Anyone have any other thoughts about their source? What level of the weave would you require for such fine control of the weave?

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Tam al'Moff
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posted January 17, 2003 12:07 AM      Profile for Tam al'Moff   Email Tam al'Moff    Edit/Delete Post
I thought it was just a tied off 'Tool of Air' weave.

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Friend of the Dork
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posted January 17, 2003 06:28 AM      Profile for Friend of the Dork      Edit/Delete Post
Damn, a player of mine wanted to know if he could make angled gateways. He tried, and i told him he wasn't able to. I wasn't sure what diabolical uses he thought about, but i have already been too adaptable when it comes to weaves in the game.
A gateway is made for Travelling. Any other use it could have, you could do better with other weaves.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted January 17, 2003 11:54 AM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Friend of the Dork:
A gateway is made for Travelling. Any other use it could have, you could do better with other weaves.

That's my thought. Gateways were used for traveling and nothing else. When one Forsaken was visiting Graendal (I forget who), s/he made a gateway in a spot where one of Graendal's servants was standing. The weave sliced the servant in two. That servant was not trying to get away. The only other instances of a gateway slicing someone was when it was closing on the Shaido Aiel. I would not allow gateways to be used for that purpose in battle, but again, that's just my take.

And yes, those ribbons could (IMHO) easily be created by Tool of Air.

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Matwin Luthair Al'Ra
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posted January 22, 2003 10:24 AM      Profile for Matwin Luthair Al'Ra   Email Matwin Luthair Al'Ra    Edit/Delete Post
Gateways were used for traveling and nothing else. When one Forsaken was visiting Graendal (I forget who), s/he made a gateway in a spot where one of Graendal's servants was standing. The weave sliced the servant in two. That servant was not trying to get away. The only other instances of a gateway slicing someone was when it was closing on the Shaido Aiel. I would not allow gateways to be used for that purpose in battle, but again, that's just my take.--posted by heron_marked_blade
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what about using a gateway as a trap? like in my little story up there?

As the Trolloc horde begins its horrid, blood-curdling charge, Matwin prepares for the weave. The approaching Trollocs snarl and drool in anticipation of the slaughter of young Matwin and his companions. "Ready yourselves!" Matwin breathes to his allies. Unsheathing swords and nocking arrows, his five companions prepare for the inevitable battle. "Stand your ground, dont falter!" Matwin yells over the approaching thunder of hoof and claw. At the last instant a Gateway five spans tall and the same length in width, rotates open slicing the boar headed trolloc in the lead in half. Over half of the Trolloc warparty stumbles through the gateway before realizing what happens. The gateway winks out behind them leaving them trapped blinking in confusion at their new surroundings, the Aiel Waste. And as the gateway closed it severed arms and heads of three more trollocs who happened to be only halfway through the gateway. Ripping his Heron Mark blade from its jeweled scabbard, Matwin begins to work his blade in defense of his life. His companions laugh wildly as they too meet the small remnants of the once mighty trolloc horde.

maybe this is a better use for a gateway.....what do you think? [Devilish]

[Devilish] [Devilish]

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted January 22, 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Matwin Luthair Al'Ra:
what about using a gateway as a trap? like in my little story up there? <snip>

I don't see why it wouldn't work. You'd have to work with your GM to figure out specifics (size of gateway, # of <NPCs> who enter, etc.), but in the right situation it might work well. I would give the Trollocs a Reflex save (perhaps modified by a Spot check to notice the difference in terrain) equal to the DC of the weave (10 + weave level + WIS mod) to avoid the gateway.

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kilthmal
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posted January 25, 2003 04:10 PM      Profile for kilthmal      Edit/Delete Post
Heh, what about opening up a gateway UNDERNEATH a gholam? This hinges on the air in the middle of a gateway is a weave, but wouldn't that be dandy? And what happens if the weave doesn't melt until he's a little bit into it? [Evil Smirk]

Kilthmal

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Merclaar
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posted January 27, 2003 09:52 PM      Profile for Merclaar      Edit/Delete Post
Those ribbons where IMHO of Earth (and maybe fire), because Rand use Fire and Earth to destroy them.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted January 28, 2003 05:34 AM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Merclaar:
Those ribbons where IMHO of Earth (and maybe fire), because Rand use Fire and Earth to destroy them.

Do channelers have to use the same elements to cut a weave or destroy a trap as the original elements used in a weave or a trap?

I thought it went in the traditional cycle: air feeds fire, which nourishes earth, which supports water, which assists air; and goes in opposites when cancelling out: air and earth negate, water and fire negate.

I never really thought about it, though, so that's just my assumption. How does it work in the books? Is Fire always used to cut or negate something? Or is this topic even relevant?

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Friend of the Dork
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posted January 28, 2003 05:52 AM      Profile for Friend of the Dork      Edit/Delete Post
As far as i know, Men can fight fire with fire, women have to use water to smother it.

In my game, however when someone tries to counter a weave i let them use one lower slot when they have all the affinities of the weave being countered.

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Daniel Holm
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posted January 28, 2003 08:30 AM      Profile for Daniel Holm   Email Daniel Holm    Edit/Delete Post
Moiraine in TEOTW, when Egwene complained that men were stronger in the "stronger" of the Five Powers: 'Moiraine laughed. "Is that what you think, child? Is there a stone so hard that wind and water cannot wear it away, a fire so strong that water cannot quench it or wind snuff it out?"'

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Freya
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posted January 28, 2003 09:20 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As far as i know, Men can fight fire with fire, women have to use water to smother it.


I would like to point out that just because women aren't naturally inclined towards fire or earth does not mean they cannot use them to good effect. [Roll Eyes]

I think Egwene could give a male channeler a run for his money when it comes to Earth ability.

And Damer could give a female channeler a run for hers when it comes to water/air.

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