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Author Topic: Crossroads ****MAJOR SPOILERS*** disscussion
aleshandre
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posted January 15, 2003 05:08 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
This topic is intended for discussion of theories, and new facts as revealed in CoT. If you have not yet read it (which is very likely considering how recently the book hit stores) and you don't want anything spoiled, leave now before you ruin your supper. As Lini says, "Any man who sups from too many plates must expect a belly ache, and deserves it."

As we all know, Captain Mellar is a darkfreind, and thanks to recent developments, we know who his Black sister in the palace is. Although it wasn't said out-right, there is a strong finger pointing at...no, not Merilille, but Sareitha. She alone of the AS in Caemlyn appears to trust him (of couse, we know that no darkfreinds trust eachother, but they use eachother to the benefit of their mutual goals). This screams to me that she is the one spoken of by the other black sisters that were in Caemyn. Even Elayne doesn't trust Mellar and he "saved" her life.
Tuon, we all know as the Daughter of the Nine Moons, as well as a woman who can learn to channel, what we didn't know, is that Mat Cauthon already performed the first half of the Seanchan wedding rites, by naming her his wife 3 times. [Eek!] What we still don't know, though I suspect it is whether she said the other half. It is obvious now that part of the fortelling by Tuon's off screen fortelling in WH included that she would marry a man who remembered the face of Artur Hawkwing. This was also implied rather than said, but "anything less, I would no belive".
Oh dear, what has Egwene gotten herself into? [Frown] The woman sometimes can't leave well enough alone. I am debating who would have given her away, but if it wasn't Halima(Arangar), then it had to be Romanda (the known black among them). It appears to be black sisters that captured her, because they destroyed the boat she was in and unless the soldiers in the boat are the ones with those sisters on the dock, then they died.

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted January 15, 2003 05:47 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
I am debating who would have given her [Egwene] away, but if it wasn't Halima(Arangar), then it had to be Romanda (the known black among them).

I wonder about this, because from what I remember (I don't have the book with me) nobody knew about the plan except for Leanne. Maybe I misread something, but this wasn't the plan that Egwene told the other Aes Sedai, this was a secret plan that she kept from everyone except for Leanne and possibly Siuan.

Any idea who the person that Davram Bashere wants to talk to (after his wife was attacked) is, and what he wants to talk about? That's bugging me. As to what the people were looking for in his tent and in Dobraine's tent, my theory is that one of the Forsaken sent them to find the keys to the Choedan Kal. It's just slightly ironic that they're too late, and while their spies are looking for the access keys, Rand's beating the crap out of the Forsaken with them (well, not technically -- he doesn't fry anyone, but he draws them to him and allows OTHERS to kick the smack out of them).

Did any time pass between when we last left Mat and when Davram Bashere, Loial, and Logain went to parley with the Seanchan? The message Loial brought back to Rand said that he could talk peace to the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and unless some time has passed and the Seanchan recovered her, she should still be fleeing from the circus with Mat. Unless the Seanchan are still trying to cover up her disappearance, but that seems unintelligent.

What is Furyk Karede doing with his group of Deathwatch Guards and damane? They disappeared too quickly to simply be looking for Tuon, although that could be what they're doing...

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"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted January 15, 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
Also, it's interesting to see that Jordan confirmed a hotly debated use of the weave Harden Air: if woven around someone's head and tied off, it will cause suffocation!

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"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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Tam al'Moff
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posted January 16, 2003 12:18 AM      Profile for Tam al'Moff   Email Tam al'Moff    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As to what the people were looking for in his tent and in Dobraine's tent, my theory is that one of the Forsaken sent them to find the keys to the Choedan Kal.
I was under the impression that the tents where searched for the Seal's to the Dark One's prison. I thought this was mentioned in Bashere's report to Rand but I could be wrong.

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If it aint broke don't fix it.

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Tam al'Moff
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posted January 16, 2003 12:41 AM      Profile for Tam al'Moff   Email Tam al'Moff    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh dear, what has Egwene gotten herself into? The woman sometimes can't leave well enough alone. I am debating who would have given her away, but if it wasn't Halima(Arangar), then it had to be Romanda (the known black among them). It appears to be black sisters that captured her, because they destroyed the boat she was in and unless the soldiers in the boat are the ones with those sisters on the dock, then they died.
Anyone else notice that Bela was around when things went belly up. Either she is a DF or a bad luck charm either way she would still make good soup. [Wink]

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If it aint broke don't fix it.

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Jak Shadow
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posted January 16, 2003 02:22 AM      Profile for Jak Shadow   Email Jak Shadow    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade:
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
I am debating who would have given her [Egwene] away, but if it wasn't Halima(Arangar), then it had to be Romanda (the known black among them).

I wonder about this, because from what I remember (I don't have the book with me) nobody knew about the plan except for Leanne. Maybe I misread something, but this wasn't the plan that Egwene told the other Aes Sedai, this was a secret plan that she kept from everyone except for Leanne and possibly Siuan.

No one knew that Egwene was going to do the Channelling, but the whole Hall knew what the plan was. The Aes Sedai who captured her was, IIRC, rather surprised at such a good catch. She was expecting a Novice, Accepted or ordinary Aes Sedai but instead she got the upstart Amyrlin Seat.

Also as for who turned her in? Well Halima seems a good possibility seeing as she (he) was going around killing as many of the people able to create Cuellindar (sp?) as possible before the plan was enacted, thus leaving only Leanne, Bodwin (sp?) and Egwene herself able to do it. As for the others, we're still not 100% sure who has a hold on Sheriam and the only guaranteed Black is the Brown sister who has Halima as her 'secretary.'

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"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK

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Aagon
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posted January 16, 2003 08:59 AM      Profile for Aagon   Email Aagon    Edit/Delete Post
Yeah... how do we know Romanda is a black?

About Toun...did she violate her promise to Mat by her actions when he left to capture that woman? I mean by more or less bribing the show person and specifically putting Mat's name on the list of those not protected; she promised, more or less, not to corrupt his followers and not to betray him, in addition to not trying to escape.

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xammer99
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posted January 16, 2003 10:34 AM      Profile for xammer99   Email xammer99    Edit/Delete Post
- in Winter's Heart, it was mentioned that they'd have to get in contact with the Black Sister in the Palace to get something done, and then soon after mentioned that Sareitha was out of the palace for some business. So definately she's black.

- The meet between Rand & DotNM. Pure Setup by Suroth. She has the male Adam, and this is her chance to get him within arms reach. Show up wearing the bracelets, walk near and clamp it on.

- Egwene. That the OP was used as a weapon against her and the crew shows that it was a darkfriend in waiting. That the sisters had to actually go into the battle at Dumai's Wells and get people attacking them directly to be able to attack them back with the power shows that you can't attack people back on the notion that they MIGHT be attackin you. So it has to be a darkfriend thing. At a guess, Halima set it up. She is in place to know about stuff goin on. Also some possibilities here:
a) the people were surprised it was the Amryllin because they didn't think the information was relyable. Who'd believe the Amryllin herself would go out and do this sorta stuff?
b) The women who could make the stuff were being eliminated, thereby forcing Egwene into action herself and setting her up to be captured.
c) Getting the information outta anyone is no problem for Halima, Saidin & Compulsion means there are no secrets in the camp from Halima.
d) If Leanne was taken too, then cances are it was Siuan who got Compulsed or is working for the other side.
e) If Leanne makes it back and failed to seal the harbor, then she either got compulsed or is working for the other side.
f) Or neither d & e and it was just manuevering the pieces to get Egwene herself to do it.

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Xammer

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drothgery
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posted January 16, 2003 01:35 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
Just a minor correction - Delana is a known Black Ajah; Romanda is not.

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Jak Shadow
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posted January 16, 2003 01:53 PM      Profile for Jak Shadow   Email Jak Shadow    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
Just a minor correction - Delana is a known Black Ajah; Romanda is not.

Thanks Dave, couldn't remember her name and was too lazy to look it up [Wink]

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"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK

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Vorpal Warhammer
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posted January 16, 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for Vorpal Warhammer      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that it was probably Halima who betrayed Egwene at the end. She could have learned of the cuendillar plan during one of Egwene's nightly headache massages. After waking from those, she can't remember her dreams, so it's likely that compulsion was used on her to make her spill her guts and forget she said anything.

We know Mesaana wasn't masquerading as Danelle, since Alviarhin didn't recognize her when Shadar Haran got rid of her disguise.

Most importantly, we got some face time with Logain. Completely awesome.

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aleshandre
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posted January 17, 2003 04:05 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
All points on Halima stand to reason, that leaves only one question, what is going to happen to the Amrylin? [Dropjaw]
It is possible that Mat & Co. had returned to Ebou Dar by the time that Dobraine and Party went to negotiate, but we'll have to wait to find out. I don't think that Tuon betrayed Mat, because the notice is a list of who is specifically protected and my guess is that Mat is listed as her husband [Love] . Though that still leaves the question of whether or not the male Adam is going to be used (side note: Suroth can't use it, because she is not a suldam).
My other question is whether SH is really who Alviarin thinks he is. She was very sure, but we all know that even when the characters are very sure, it can be quite the opposite.
Leanne never went across the river with Egwene. Suian said that she had returned to camp before Egwene ever walked out of the tent.

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
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Tam al'Moff
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posted January 17, 2003 05:11 AM      Profile for Tam al'Moff   Email Tam al'Moff    Edit/Delete Post
with regards to the incidents at the camp does the Sense Residue feat as it is written in the rules allow the player to sense the other half of the one power??

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If it aint broke don't fix it.

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Xythlord
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posted January 17, 2003 05:47 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
It was said that she "tested for a resonance" and found lots of saidin "more than what was used of saidar. So maybe it was a weave instead of Sense Residue...or maybe a specialized use of Sense Residue with a much higher DC than normal? From the discription it sounded like she was able to see the weave originally used for saidar, but only felt the amount for saidin so she wouldn't be able to "see" it like the normal use of this power.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Friend of the Dork
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posted January 17, 2003 06:18 AM      Profile for Friend of the Dork      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, what is that testing for ressonance thing the Aes Sedai do at Halima's victims?
Moghedien was supposed to teach Egwene, Nyna and Elayne how to detect a man's channeling, did she actually do it?

How common is the ability to Sense Residue?

Hmm, was going to answer questions, but since they're already answered...
Sareitha supporting Mellar is suspicious, yet why did Merilille leave the way she did? And with whom?
Delana is the only confirmed black among the rebels, and are we sure that Aran'gar alias Halima (alias Balthamel?) is any good with Compulsion? It seems to me that Forsaken, even with their incredibly abilities have weaknesses. Some are quite bad at healing, for instance.

I suspect that Romanda's rival (Lelaine?) is Black, as she has power yet seems nice... Darkfriends are usually good at appearing nice...

Thank god Egwene did that foolish stunt of hers, the book wouldn't have been very exiting without it. Don't get me wrong, i love the books, and the game, but 30 pages of taking on and taking off a dress, isn't my idea of fun.

Logain seems like the good guy, and he'll be taking over the Black Tower once Taim is deposed and dead. Perhaps the ancient title of Tamyrlin will be his?
Go Logain!

But are the Aes Sedai bonded to him and his followers helpless slaves, or have they come to terms with their fates?

And when will Elaida's prophecy about the Tower and the Amyrlin (egwene) come true?
"The white tower will be whole again(...)whole and stronger than ever. Rand Al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger."

The White Tower has suffered alot lately, not only because of the coup and rebellion, but Aes Sedai as a whole has lost credit. People have seen them scurrying like novices for the Dragon Reborn, jumping at the sight of Windfinders, asking permission to speak from the Aiel Wise Ones, leashed by the Seanchan.
What's next? Sold to Shara as cattle for the Ayyad?

They need to gain proper respect again, from common people, nobles, Asha'man and the other Channeling traditions.

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Darkfriend, Darkfriend, what'ya gonna do? a what'ya gonna do when they come for you....

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Friend of the Dork
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posted January 17, 2003 06:22 AM      Profile for Friend of the Dork      Edit/Delete Post
Sense Residue feat is almost a must for initates in the game, as they will almost always succeed at a Weavesight check on medium to high level.

I almost don't bother to have the initate in my game to make those checks, she's as good as weavesight as the Woodsman/Warder is at hiding with his warders cloak.

Checking for ressonance of Saidin could easily be a weave.

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Darkfriend, Darkfriend, what'ya gonna do? a what'ya gonna do when they come for you....

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Tam al'Moff
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posted January 17, 2003 06:36 AM      Profile for Tam al'Moff   Email Tam al'Moff    Edit/Delete Post
Apart from the weave (weaves??) to create cuendillar did anyone spot any new uses of the one power? I can't think of any off hand.

Also when Egwene or other AS have to walk across the mud between wooden walkways why don't they make a path using harden air?? Why aren't the paths themselves all made of tied off harden air? It would have saved a lot of trees to be used instead for firewood and there would have been no need for all that manual labour laying planks.

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If it aint broke don't fix it.

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Freya
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posted January 17, 2003 07:07 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Friend of the Dork:
Moghedien was supposed to teach Egwene, Nyna and Elayne how to detect a man's channeling, did she actually do it?


Nope, Mog laughingly mentioned to another forsaken at some point, that all she taught them (for detecting a man's channeling) was a way to cause themselves headaches because the weave was so complex.

quote:

How common is the ability to Sense Residue?


Not very. Think about it. When the rebels sent an expedition to visit the Shadar Logoth site, they sent five Aes Sedai. The ones with the ability to Sense Residue the best. If only five have it strong enough to be considered of use, how many do you think as a whole would have such an ability?

Also, Sense Residue was removed from the list of prerequisites to enter any channeling PrC. Precisely because it is a rare ability. Read the scene when Aviendha first uses unraveling, she also mentions that see can Sense Residues of weaves, and that "not many others can".

quote:

Sareitha supporting Mellar is suspicious, yet why did Merilille leave the way she did? And with whom?


She left with Talene, the Sea Folk apprentice Windfinder who wanted to enter the White Tower. Now, where she took her...the White Tower, to find the rebel camp, or to an independant group...we don't know.

quote:

But are the Aes Sedai bonded to him and his followers helpless slaves, or have they come to terms with their fates?


They are only helpless when it comes to harming an Asha'man, or any of the other things they were told explicitly not to do. So far, we've only seen into the minds of two of these Aes Sedai. Toveine definately has not 'come to terms' with it...she got a note snuck out describing the situation to a Red agent. Gabrelle, Logain's other Aes Sedai, is taking the advantage of learning all she can about male channelers...while also becoming ingraciated to Logain to learn Black Tower secrets/plans.

quote:

They need to gain proper respect again, from common people, nobles, Asha'man and the other Channeling traditions.

It will happen, eventually. The problem is that they always retained power by seeming all-knowing and all-powerful. Those who were intimidated by that facade (the Aiel, Sea Folk, the Kin), see that is not true and, as human-nature is wont to do, take out their anger-at-themselves-for-irrationally-fearing-something-that-they-reason-did-not-deserve-it on them. It will all reach an equilibrium at some point...Egwene will unite all the channeling traditions together and it will work out. [Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by Tam al'Moff:
Apart from the weave (weaves??) to create cuendillar did anyone spot any new uses of the one power? I can't think of any off hand.


There was the new weave to check on the health of a baby and its mother. I forgot what they called it.

[ January 17, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Freya ]

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felicia
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xammer99
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posted January 17, 2003 11:54 AM      Profile for xammer99   Email xammer99    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And when will Elaida's prophecy about the Tower and the Amyrlin (egwene) come true?
"The white tower will be whole again(...)whole and stronger than ever. Rand Al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger."

Has this already occured in Lord of Chaos? He faced her envoys, and he sure as hell knew her anger.

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Xammer

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Xythlord
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posted January 17, 2003 03:34 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
The weave for checking on a pregnant mother is called carressing the Child. I was wondering if the weave called Threading the Needle in UtDB could be modified by somebody who has the Sense Residue (those rare few) to allow a channeler to "Sense the Resonance" of the opposite source saidin/saidar.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Jak Shadow
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posted January 17, 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for Jak Shadow   Email Jak Shadow    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by xammer99:
quote:
And when will Elaida's prophecy about the Tower and the Amyrlin (egwene) come true?
"The white tower will be whole again(...)whole and stronger than ever. Rand Al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger."

Has this already occured in Lord of Chaos? He faced her envoys, and he sure as hell knew her anger.

I think the prophecy is to do w/ Egwene, not Elaida and her Aes Sedai, so it hasn't happened yet.

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"I'm not feeling very well, it must be the anthrax." ~ Saturday night Delta Green, GenCon UK

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finnmckool
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posted January 17, 2003 07:24 PM      Profile for finnmckool   Email finnmckool    Edit/Delete Post
Actually another point you guys missed. There was another girl mentioned, who was calling herself the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and it WASN'T Tuon. The Deathwatch Guard guy and the Seeker spoke of her. She was probably captured, and Suroth will probably try and pass her off AS the DotNM. Remember two things 1) the public doesn't know she's been kidnapped 2) Rand (nor anyone else of his crew for that matter, and few people on this side of the Aryyth) have MET Tuon. I do agree it's a plot to get Rand in arm's reach. But I'm betting it will fail, and Mat will show up with Tuon before too long, and Suroth will be handed the strangling cord.
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grolm
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posted January 18, 2003 01:47 AM      Profile for grolm      Edit/Delete Post
1 Masuri used the power on the darkhound tracks to learn about the pack.
2 Flinn had a weave to take away or lessen the grief over a fallen warder.
3 the previously mentioned caressing the child.
4 the also previously mentioned making of cuendillar.

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Gothenem
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posted January 18, 2003 02:10 AM      Profile for Gothenem   Email Gothenem    Edit/Delete Post
Who ever said Tuon was MISSING???

Sure Mat and company kidnapped her (or thought they did), but it IS possible that Tuon set them up. Maybe Suroth knows the location of Tuon, that's why she hasn't been labelled as missing.

Or Suroth is pulling some BS on Rand.

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Xythlord
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posted January 18, 2003 06:20 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by grolm:
1 Masuri used the power on the darkhound tracks to learn about the pack.
2 Flinn had a weave to take away or lessen the grief over a fallen warder.

The weave that Masuri used on the tracks of the darkhounds was Trace out of the core rulebook.

Could you quote the page number of the example for what Flinn did, I don't recall him using the power for that, but I very well could be wrong....I have only read it once so far [Wink]

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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