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Author Topic: Ter'angreal (Wells)
lostone
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posted May 21, 2003 05:59 PM      Profile for lostone      Edit/Delete Post
Keep in mind I haven't read Crossroads yet (should start it next week):

Has anyone come up with any rules on Wells? Do they let the user cast so many levels of weaves in a stedding type area? Can someone who has a well use all their normal weave slots and then use the well without overchanneling? Or does it just allow them to use so many weaves inside a stedding?

Also, the Eye of the World is essentially a Well, could Rand refill it much as Nynaeve describes refilling hers? (embrace the power through it)

From: Nebraska | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted May 21, 2003 07:53 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
have you taken a look at either Call of the Horn or the netbook UtDB. You can find a version of the well ter'angreal done by Eosin the Red and of course a bunch of other stuff by members of these boards. The new netbook is being worked on as we speak and will probably contain a lot of very good info as well (considering the staff it almost couldn't be good).

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Matai Gaidin
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posted May 21, 2003 10:30 PM      Profile for Matai Gaidin      Edit/Delete Post
I had this discussion about the Eye of the World recently with another GM. The Eye is not a well like Nynaeve's or Cadsuane's. It is a pool of pure saidin without the taint. After Rand used it all up, it was gone, never to return. It took 100 powerful male and female Aes Sedai to create it, and they all died from the effort. So I'd say that eliminates even the Dragon Reborn from refilling it by himself.
Now that doesn't mean you can't follow through with whatever idea you had for the Eye. It just means you've got to create your own kind of ter'angreal and there's no reason it can't be huge or tied to a specific location.
Wells allow to channel under pretty much any condition, as I understand it. In stedding, when your shielded, and obviously in Far Madding.

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"I think Matai's dead!"
"Good, I need the rest," Matai replied.

From: Modesto, California | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lostone
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posted May 26, 2003 07:59 PM      Profile for lostone      Edit/Delete Post
Wells let you channel when you're shielded??? If that's in crossroads say yes and leave it at that, if it's in a previous book where I completely missed it, please state where
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Daikatana
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posted May 27, 2003 02:23 AM      Profile for Daikatana      Edit/Delete Post
you get that info when Rand & co are in Far Madding in Winter's Heart

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Sharn_Penndroen
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posted May 27, 2003 04:28 AM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
Are they Shielded in Far Madding, or merely under the effect of the Guardian and in a "dead-zone"?

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A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

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aleshandre
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posted May 27, 2003 05:47 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Far Madding is far different than being shielded in the true sense of the word, because you can't even sense the true source there (you can sense it while shielded, but not touch it).
We have no examples of a person with a well channeling while shielded. Until we get some, I would say no. A well provides a source of the power where there is none, it does not connect you to the source while you are cut off from it. Shielding is in essence a temporary severing from the power (it's nearly the same weave, lacking only the razor edge - see the Tanchico duel between Nyn and Mogy).

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From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matai Gaidin
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posted May 27, 2003 02:25 PM      Profile for Matai Gaidin      Edit/Delete Post
You are correct that we haven't seen anybody channel while shielded. We also have never seen anyone shielded while in possession of a well. We know that a well stores a small amount of the OP and the channeler can draw on that even while in a stedding or in Far Madding. One of the Aes Sedai describes Far Madding's Guardian as duplicating the effects of a stedding, the important ones, anyway (referring to preventing channelers from touching the Source). In my mind, that means to treat Far Madding as if it were a stedding as far as channelers are concerned. I think we agree on that point.
I believe that someone who is shielded should still be able to use a well because the shield cuts the channeler off from the Source, but not from the well. The ability to channel is innate. The magic (One Power) is not. It just exists and some people can draw on that energy and shape it to their will. That means that they have the ability and only lack a source of magical energy. My opinion is that Shielding someone cuts them off from the One Power, their main magical energy source. But a well is like a battery and can be an energy source, too, but only to the person wearing it.
That's why I believe you can use a well while Shielded, in a stedding, or in Far Madding. There are no book examples for the Shielded part, I inferred it based on what the books say, though.

--------------------
"I think Matai's dead!"
"Good, I need the rest," Matai replied.

From: Modesto, California | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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posted May 27, 2003 02:43 PM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
Regarding channeling using wells while Shielded... it all depends on how you envision these things working (or more importantly, how RJ envisions these things working).

An simple analogy to reflect how I think these things work.

A channeler is someone who can reach out and flip a light switch to turn on a light. If a channeler is in a stedding, there is no power going to the light switch so no matter how you try to flip the switch the light will never come on. A shielded channeler is someone trying to flip a light switch that has been jammed. There is power, but you can't turn on the lights unless you can unjam the switch. A Well is like a backup battery. It provides power, but it doesn't fix the switch.

From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
lostone
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posted May 27, 2003 07:11 PM      Profile for lostone      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Matai Gaidin:
I believe that someone who is shielded should still be able to use a well because the shield cuts the channeler off from the Source, but not from the well. The ability to channel is innate. The magic (One Power) is not. It just exists and some people can draw on that energy and shape it to their will. That means that they have the ability and only lack a source of magical energy. My opinion is that Shielding someone cuts them off from the One Power, their main magical energy source. But a well is like a battery and can be an energy source, too, but only to the person wearing it.

I have to disagree with the way this is worded, because this makes it sound like someone who has been severed/stilled/gentled could use a well to channel (possibly not fill it up again though when it is empty). Although, I wonder. I cannot remember all the definitions of severing as "known" by the characters in the novels...is it simply cutting someone off from the one power permenantly (at least until Nynaeve discovers how to heal it)? If that is the case a well could allow them to channel, just like when they are in a stedding or far madding
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Xythlord
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posted May 27, 2003 10:02 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I don't know about that, because if you are severed you cannot touch what is there...you are unable even though you can sense it.

With being shielded you can still touch the source if you could break through the block or in this case (with a well) if you can draw from a different source. (which is what I believe, may not be right though).

One breaks something within you so you can't use the power anymore (but you can still sense it, unlike being burned out), while the other just blocks you from getting there, so you go to another source, albight smaller.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Whitewinds
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posted May 28, 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
Let's try it this way: The One Power is drawn from the True Source, which is extradimensional. Shielding, severing, the Far Madding Guardian, and being in a stedding all prevent a person from reaching the Source. A well, however, holds saidar (or saidin) in this dimesion, allowing a channeler to use it without having to reach the Source. So, assuming that neither shielding nor severing removes the actual ability to manipulate the Power, only blocks or removes the ability to reach the Source and draw the Power in the first place, then I'd say that a severed channeler could use a well. This supposition is supported by Moghedien's observed ability to unravel a tied-off shield, which requires that the ability to manipulate saidar be seperate from the ability to draw it. Not to mention Rand's doing something similar to his shield when he was being kept in a box.
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Fyatuk
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posted May 28, 2003 12:46 PM      Profile for Fyatuk      Edit/Delete Post
Here's my opinions on the matter. First, a well stores a set amount of One Power (number of weave levels) and can be refilled by sacrificing that number of weaves (AKA you use them one day, but get an effect at some other time).

Obviously you can use a well inside Far Madding and therefore inside a Stedding. I believe you an also use it while shielded (since it is inevitable refered to as being blocked from the source). Actually I think its even mentioned in WH when Nynaeve is discussing her well that it could be, but I don't remember.

If you are Severed/Stilled/Gentled you could not use a well. If you think of it as an electric circuit, then being severed is like missing a fuse. The circuit is not complete and can't be until the fuse is replaced.

I'm personally one of those that believe that being burned out cannot be healed because its more akin to burning out the entire circuit, not just the fuse.

BTW Whitewinds... Trying to break a shield is not really manipulating the One Power. It's like trying to push your way through a wall, you aren't unravelling it neatly, you're trying to blow it apart.

--------------------
Fyatuk Loth
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Whitewinds
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posted May 28, 2003 07:55 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
True, you can break a shield by force, but I'm quite sure that Moghedien unravelled a shield she was under.
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lostone
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posted June 04, 2003 07:10 PM      Profile for lostone      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Matai Gaidin:
I had this discussion about the Eye of the World recently with another GM. The Eye is not a well like Nynaeve's or Cadsuane's. It is a pool of pure saidin without the taint. After Rand used it all up, it was gone, never to return. It took 100 powerful male and female Aes Sedai to create it, and they all died from the effort. So I'd say that eliminates even the Dragon Reborn from refilling it by himself.

Not quite. I'm going from memory here, so correct me if I'm wrong. The Eye of the World was created by 100 powerful male and female Aes Sedai and filled with the pure essence of saidin without the taint, yes. But it took that many to create it so it would not have the taint. Where did they put the taint? They created the Blight, that is why it is so different from anywhere else in the world. Now, since Rand has cleansed the taint, the Eye of the World should simply be a well like any other, it's simply a ter'angreal that holds the essence of the one power (although a ton more than normal wells, hence it's size). What do other people think of this angle?
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Xythlord
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posted June 04, 2003 10:22 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I think that you are spot on about the Eye being a abnormally large well, albight its usefullness is somewhat limited as it cannot be moved. The number of channelers needed was to both create it and to fill it with untainted saidin. Hence why so many of them died in the process (ask Rand, its not fun playing with large amounts of tainted saidin.

But I believe that the reason for the blight has a lot more to do with Shuyol Ghul (spelling?) than with a large well.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted June 05, 2003 07:27 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
Isn't it enough that RJ has said at signings that the Eye was not a well?

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Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
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http://www.thehumblest.net/
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From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matai Gaidin
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posted June 05, 2003 03:52 PM      Profile for Matai Gaidin      Edit/Delete Post
... and that the BBoBA says the Eye of the World is gone now?

--------------------
"I think Matai's dead!"
"Good, I need the rest," Matai replied.

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lostone
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posted June 09, 2003 05:38 PM      Profile for lostone      Edit/Delete Post
BBoBa?
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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted June 10, 2003 10:48 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
The Big Book of Bad Art, a.k.a. The Big White Book of Bad Art, a.k.a. TWoRJtWoT, or The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time.

HTH, HAND! [Wink]

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

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