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Ennaom
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posted December 11, 2002 10:55 AM      Profile for Ennaom   Email Ennaom    Edit/Delete Post
I have a question about those two clases...
I have read the rules quickly, and what is the drawback to play a wilder over an Initiate...
Because Wilder has more weave, can cast highter weave when they don't have the talent (comparing to Initiate)

Well in the Wot, it also seems that wilder need one condition in order to channel but they can overcome it...

I need help on this..

Ennaom, a DM to be

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From: Paris | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Draicen
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posted December 11, 2002 11:44 AM      Profile for Draicen      Edit/Delete Post
Wilder has a MUCH slower feat progression for the bonus channeling feats...
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aleshandre
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posted December 11, 2002 11:47 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
The block is the main drawback to the wilder, especially for females. A male wilder can take the eliminate block feat at 1st lvl, but for either one, it's an extra feat that they have to take instead of more usefull feats.

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From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted December 11, 2002 12:06 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
That's a question I've heard others raise before this. Here's my take on it:

Initiates gain more bonus channeling feats, a bonus to Weavesight, and an even weave-gain progression (40 total at lvl 20). This represents their "trained" ability.

Wilders gain higher level weaves sooner, can cast 0-2 level weaves no matter which Talent, and gain a bonus to Overchanneling. This represents their raw power (can channel 44 total weaves at lvl 20). At higher levels, a Wilder cannot channel as many higher level weaves as an Initiate can, and Wilders must overcome an emotional Block; this balances the class.

The major drawback to playing a Wilder is the Block. The ONLY time a Wilder can channel is when he/she is in a specific state of mind, at least until the Block is broken. Not only do Wilders have to deal with Concentration checks to stay connected to the OP, they have to stay in a frame of mind too, which is infinitely more difficult. Remember that Nynaeve didn't get her Block removed until she was at least level 15.

In regard to the Block, I've toyed with the idea of picking the block for the PC and not letting him/her know what the block is (at least not at first). As I understand it, not all Wilders know what state they need to be in to channel, at least not in the beginning. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Obviously, over time the Wilder will get an idea and may be able to consciously put him-/herself into the necessary state of mind. Has anyone actually done this before (and lived, that is -- I can imagine the player becoming irate because he keeps getting whipped up on because he can't figure it out...)?

Many people think that the best channeler character is a cross-classed Wilder/Initiate. They gain the bonuses from Wilder, and gain the Weavesight bonus and extra channeling feats from Initiate. They DO have to use the Initiate weave-per-day table, but they also gain bonus weaves from both Intelligence and Wisdom, not just Wisdom. This seems to more accurately reflect channelers like Cadsuane who were wilders but who broke their blocks and became Aes Sedai.

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Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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posted December 11, 2002 12:17 PM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
The advantages of being an Initiate over a Wilder are rather poorly explained, partly (IMO) because they are very setting dependant.

First and foremost, an Initiate will actually learn more weaves than a Wilder and will learn them more quickly. This is because the Initiate has a mentor, who will activley teach her weaves, while a Wilder has only those weaves they get auomatically and any weaves they might pick along the way.

Second, the Initiate has a mentor and is a part of a tradition. At first, this may seem like a limitation rather than an advantage but in fact it is not. Having a mentor and being part of a tradition gives an Initiate access to all sorts of advice, help and support that a Wilder simply doesn't have. Even if a mentor does not join the Initiate on adventures, they are still a valuable source of information at the very least. ("Gee, Zeranda Sedai, do you happen to know anything about Lord Bryn's ruined estate." "Well, child, let me think. <checks Knowledge: History +15> Yes, I seem to recall...")

Ultimately, the balance between Initiate and Wilder is struck in the setting not the rules. An Initiate has the support and protection of her tradition. A Wilder is alone in a world that is fearful and frequently hostile toward her because of her abilities.

Indeed, a Wilder may well find herself at odds with the Initiate traditions. The Aes Sedai will actively seek, find and harshly punish any woman who "pretends to be Aes Sedai" or who "acts in a manner to disgrase the Aes Sedai." This means any Wilder who is too open with her abilities is likely to get a visit from a much higher level Initiate intent on teaching her a lesson in humility... and is "she" is actually "he" ... well, you'd best write up a new character 'cause all those levels in Wilder and all those channeling feats mean squat now that you've been gentled.

From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dayana Sedai
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posted December 11, 2002 12:57 PM      Profile for Dayana Sedai      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, time and again in the books it stats that Wilders often become the most powerful Aes Sedai, I think this is where the d20 setting shines here.

#1, wilders start out awesome, I like the idea that they do not know what their block is at first (but by level 2 they should have a good idea), also DON'T underestimate the FULL ROUND it takes to embrace the source for BOTH the initiate and wilder, this balances with fighting classes.

#2, initiates can learn weaves easier at first, they start out with MORE over all but are limited to their studied talent(s). they have a slow progression, perhaps because their mentors know the benifits of starting slowly and working their way up. Initiates are top heavey, the benifits come late where wilders eventually progress very slowly.

#3 according to the PrC's a wilder is fully capible of becoming the PrC if they don't want to get levels in initiate. The balance is, the Initiate will have more higher level weaves, the wilder will be able to make ANY overchannel rolls for the lower slots when they are out of the rest.

#4 multiclassing makes them unstoppable, which is SWEET. but they are still limited by their int stat to see if they can cast the weave, so a wilder with an 18 wisdom and a 12 int who multiclasses will no longer be able to cast over level 2 . . . thus they may not choose to. (making sense because they learn by figuring out rather than study)

just my thoughts! [Love]

Dayana Adrinna Sedai
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From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted December 11, 2002 02:05 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dayana Sedai:
Okay, time and again in the books it stats that Wilders often become the most powerful Aes Sedai, I think this is where the d20 setting shines here.

Err. No it doesn't. Apologies to anyone who's read a rather strongly related rant of mine before (regarding people with the spark, who aren't necessarily wilders; Jahar Narishma and Elayne Trakand were born with the spark, but learned to channel almost entirely within the context of a tradition).

Verin says once that some of the most powerful Aes Sedai have been wilders. But of the most powerful Aes Sedai before the main timeline of the novels (we know nothing about Cadsuane, so she can't be used as a datapoint), we know that Siuan, Elaida, and Moiraine were not wilders, and it seems unlikely that Lelaine or Romanda were. Heck, the only known former wilders who are now Aes Sedai are Tarna Fair (of no particular note), Theodrin Debai (on the strong side, about on a level with Sheriam), and Nynaeve. And that's just not enough data points to draw any conclusions from.

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Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
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Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dayana Sedai
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posted December 11, 2002 02:28 PM      Profile for Dayana Sedai      Edit/Delete Post
Moraine was a wilder luv, she talks about it in the very first book when she uses her amulet and talks aobut "tricks" that wilders learn before they come to the tower.

There are a few examples to wilders who arn't more powerful than Aes Sedai (like the wind finders who don't have any wilder women). Verin summates that the reason the spark is decreasing is because Aes Sedai coddle the ability out of society by gentling men who can channel. Suian likely would have been a wilder, IF tear didn't ship off any woman who showed signs of channeling. The same with the borderlanders. And Elayne grew up with an Aes Sedai to test her, so even though she had the inborn spark (like a wilder) she was never given the opportunity to learn on her own.

There are two types of channelers, those with the inborn spark (like damane in seanchan) and those who can learn it (like sul'dam . . . as Elayne, Egwene and Nyneave discover). Those with the inborn spark would learn regardless of training but they may die (1 out of 4 men or 1 out of 10 women do die from learning on their own). Aes Sedai cannot go out testing women left and right. This is evidenced by the Seanchan finding so many Damane, not all of whom are Aes Sedai, Kin or Windfinders.

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The house of Adrinna will rise to the glory of Cairhien and bring light to the world. It is so sworn on the sun throne.

From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted December 11, 2002 03:25 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
The initiate/wilder break is supposed to be based on training, not being born with the spark (and there's no real evidence that those with the spark are any stronger on average; we don't know anything about the sparker/non-sparker status of most of the most powerful chanellers -- a small sample to begin with -- and of those we do know anything about, there are men and women of great power from both groups).

Moiraine had the spark, but she was certainly brought to the tower soon after she channeled the first time, and quite likely had an Aes Sedai on hand to guide her before she went to the Tower. She was a niece of the King of Cairhein. And outside of Tear and Amadacia, royalty frequently encounter Aes Sedai.

[ December 11, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: drothgery ]

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Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eosin_the_Red
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posted December 11, 2002 11:46 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
#4 multiclassing makes them unstoppable, which is SWEET. but they are still limited by their int stat to see if they can cast the weave, so a wilder with an 18 wisdom and a 12 int who multiclasses will no longer be able to cast over level 2 . . . thus they may not choose to. (making sense because they learn by figuring out rather than study)
To quote Dave - Err no. When multiclassing you ALWAYS get the most adventagious combo. If you are a Wilder/Initiate you can use your INT or WIS whichever is better. For determining bonus weaves you count ALL THREE abilities.

Onto the Wilder---Sparker---Nonsparker.

The three most powerful female channelers are all strait initiates - Lanfear, Alivia, & Sharina (a known non-sparker).

The advantages and the original question - double or close to it the number of feats. With an equal stat distribution buckets more Skill Points.

The overchanneling bonus is minimized bt Wilders getting Poor FORT save while Initiates get Good FORT saves.

It really is a close race - if I could only choose one class and I knew the game was going to last into the teen levels - it would always be Initiate. If it was a one shot kinda deal I would probably pick wilder.

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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted December 12, 2002 06:56 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red:
[QUOTE]The three most powerful female channelers are all strait initiates - Lanfear, Alivia, & Sharina (a known non-sparker).

Just to be nitpicky, Sharina is potentially among the most powerful female channelers, but she's almost certainly a long way from being so right now. As of Winter's Heart, she's only been channeling for about a month, and that's just not enough time for a woman to get anywhere near her full strength.

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Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


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