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Author Topic: UtDB Critique
Ghaerdon Fain
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posted August 16, 2002 07:11 AM      Profile for Ghaerdon Fain   Email Ghaerdon Fain    Edit/Delete Post
OK, so here it begins. MAB and the crew did a great job. The editing is fantstic. But now we should, in a very sensitive way [Smile] , say what we use and what we don't.

We've put our two cent in for the PotD (strengths? Weakeness?). Over the next few weeks we should say what we'll never use and what we've added. For example, how many use the "Revised" characters, and not the ones in the book.

My interest is purely selfish; I want to introduce what the majority of the board uses: kinda a Standard. Also I'm subject to peer presure [Roll Eyes]

We should in no way TRASH anyone's hard work. Why we won't use it is one thing but to trash is just not on!

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"My Brother? By the Light, I've never seen this darkfriend before!"
Go to my "Tiny Wheel of Time"; http://pages.globetrotter.net/pastor/wot.html

From: Basse Cote Nord, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reynar Andellan
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posted August 16, 2002 12:27 PM      Profile for Reynar Andellan   Email Reynar Andellan    Edit/Delete Post
One thing that I disagree with in the netbook is the use of feats to represnt Wolfbrother progression. Granted that Wolfbrother may not be linked with One Power in any way but as we saw with Perrin, it is a gradual progression to accumulate the abilities he now posses. In my opinion, Wolfbrother works much better as a prestige class than a set of Latent feats.

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted August 16, 2002 12:30 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
Critiqing is excellent. It will help the next crew who comes along after us. I agree that folks should be sensitive to the people who did the writing. "this class/feat/weave/ ect is way too powerfull/doesn't fit/ill concieved...Is GOOD.

This guy sucks, will likely upset someone who was only trying their best to make your game better. This is BAD.

Oh yeah, It is conversly ok to defend the rationale for your design decisions. We all do stuff a little different, sometimes it is just different, not wrong. Everyone knows I defend my decisions [Big Grin]

I am not one of the mushy guys/gals who believe in the touchy feely - "whatever fits your style is ok" Somethings are wrong.

FIRE IN THE HOLE!

Lets see what people have to say.

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JosephKell
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posted August 16, 2002 01:33 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
I strongly believe that power wrought items should not be touched for weaves. The books state that all memory of how to make them was lost (even the Forsaken don't seem to be able to reproduce them) so these Lost weaves are like waving candy in front of a child (awful thing to do! [Devilish] ) But power wrought items are supposed to be special and rare, and well allowing PC's to make them will ruin a game. They have no XP costs, no gold costs... just a bad idea.

I am, however, glad that the UtDB group didn't touch the Angreal making weaves, (they started as low as level 3! come on.. I would personally make an angreal require a link of channelers casting at least a level 20 weave together to make a level 1 angreal, just to show how awesome they are to make and to demonstrate a reason why they aren't common enough to be paper weights).

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GhostTigone
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posted August 16, 2002 02:12 PM      Profile for GhostTigone      Edit/Delete Post
the netbook is great, the only problem I have so far is the converted plant growth weave, maybe it's just me but that is more for treesingers and something channelers shouldn't be able to do

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LuciusT
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posted August 16, 2002 02:24 PM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by GhostTigone:
the netbook is great, the only problem I have so far is the converted plant growth weave, maybe it's just me but that is more for treesingers and something channelers shouldn't be able to do

Actually, it does have some basis... in Eye of the World, Elaida has used the Power to make the royal gardens in the palace in Caemlyn bloom despite the harsh weather.
From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
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posted August 16, 2002 02:46 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
And when I made it I made sure that the effect that the weave produced was drastically inferior to what a Tree singer could accomplish.

By 9th level, a channeler can cast this weave at a 5th level. This effect will give him a 200% growth rate (and is maxed out), the same treesinger can accomplish a 250% growth rate and he can keep on going.

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From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted August 16, 2002 03:42 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
Just like evything else the new weaves where awesome, perhaps a little too awesome though. I think I counted about 15 common weaves, just a few more than the amount of lost weaves (about 13), the rest where all rare. It may be just me, but since Common weaves are common, should there not be a few more of them than there are Rare weaves. The rare weaves are indeed nifty, but I myself don't like my channeler PC's mucking about trying to kill Foresaken or Dragons for that matter (not that I would ever let them [Smile] .
The rest of UtDB was awesome, 'specialy the Sword Forms!

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Jak Shadow
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posted August 16, 2002 03:59 PM      Profile for Jak Shadow   Email Jak Shadow    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reynar Andellan:
One thing that I disagree with in the netbook is the use of feats to represnt Wolfbrother progression. Granted that Wolfbrother may not be linked with One Power in any way but as we saw with Perrin, it is a gradual progression to accumulate the abilities he now posses. In my opinion, Wolfbrother works much better as a prestige class than a set of Latent feats.

And this is, as you say, your opinion. Personally I never liked the idea of doing Wolfbrother as a PrC, it just didn't seem right to me. I was thinking some kind of template with abilities kicking in at later levels maybe but then I remembered the wonderful Latent Feat mechanic and thought that I would see what could be done with that. In the end all of the stuff in the Netbook is 100% unofficial and you can pick and choose what to use, if you don't like something don't include it! I'm certain there will be many things that I choose to leave out, but probably more that I leave in, but I'll need to fully read through UTDB to truly decide that.

[Edit: Damnable typos!]

[ August 16, 2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Jak Shadow ]

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From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arafel is Full of Strange Folks
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posted August 16, 2002 04:53 PM      Profile for Arafel is Full of Strange Folks   Email Arafel is Full of Strange Folks    Edit/Delete Post
I for one really like the prestige class for Ogier; I think it is well done and provides for some neat role playing.

I've thought about a "Latent Singer/Singer" set of feats that could represent the Singing in the Age of Legends that the Jen Aiel (Tinkers) could do along with the Ogier. Indeed, it might be a neat thing to give the Tinker class. There might well be more than "one" song that works for "Singing" rather than the one the Tinkers are currently looking for.

By the way, has anyone done up stats for a Nym?

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ghaerdon Fain
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posted August 16, 2002 05:00 PM      Profile for Ghaerdon Fain   Email Ghaerdon Fain    Edit/Delete Post
Here's one that's not content related.

I printed UtDB and went to look up page 58 and ... um... well... I got no page numbers [Mad]

Could this be my fault? I think not. HELP. Oh well thank God for my trusty "Pilot Hi-Tech".

BTW: I agree with Joseph and Kell [Big Grin] Power wrought items are rare: very rare. GM's beware too many are a trick to get us out of the spirit of the world and into some new type of "Rand Realms" DnD adventure with 37th level Fire Ogiers. Too powerful for the most part but one or two may be a great theoretical prize.

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"My Brother? By the Light, I've never seen this darkfriend before!"
Go to my "Tiny Wheel of Time"; http://pages.globetrotter.net/pastor/wot.html

From: Basse Cote Nord, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted August 16, 2002 06:48 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ghaerdon Fain:
Joseph and Kell [Big Grin]

Joseph: Ha Ha! He said my name first!
Kell: Shut up!
Joseph takes a Q-tip and stabs Kell through his ear: OW!
Kell: Moron...

Joseph [Angel] & Kell [Devilish]

(Always wanted to do something like this, Nice to know someone remembered that Joseph and Kell are supposed to be two different Personas stuck in one body.)

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...you might be a Munchkin.

From: California | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted August 17, 2002 10:12 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
I said in another thread that I'd post this as soon as I got around to it.

In looking through this list I've noticed a few general categories of things that bugged me.
1) Things that were pretty clearly cribbed from D&D and don't fit very well in WoT.
2) Complex, high-grade mind-affecting effects. It's just not as easy to fuss with someone's mind using the One Power as it with D&D magic.
3) Attempts to get around the 'dead is dead' nature of d20 WoT.
4) Redudancy.
5) Overpowered weaves/items.

So here's what I'd've eliminated from the netbook...

Backgrounds
- The variant Illuminator background (pick one and use it)

Classes
- The revised algai and the revised noble (replacing a core class isn't worth the effort, and the revised algai is overpowered)
- The Wisdom PrC; the class abilities are weird, and the standard wilder is pretty much the canonical channeling Wisdom.

Skills
- Sword Forms - the mechanics just don't seem d20-ish.

Feats
- The Exiled background feat - odd set of bonuses, doesn't really reflect anyone in the books
- All the stat-modifying feats, whether pure +1 or +2 to something/-2 to something else. There's a reason why these things are Epic Feats in D&D -- stat bonuses can have a huge effect at low to medium levels.
- Eidetic Memory. This is just silly.
- Hate, Love, and Rational Thought. Please.
- Light Sleeper. What is this, the 'my DM attacks us at night too often and I don't want to set watches' feat?
- Attenuated Affinity, Favored Weave. These guys look overpowered.
- Chain Weave. Weaves don't do this. Sorry.
- Improved Multiweave, Simultaneous Casting, Splitting the Flows. In the first place, all three of these do pretty much the same thing. In the second place, while this actually does exist in the novels, doing it in-game is some sick way of torturing the GM.
- Latent Animal Talker/Animal Talker - The only precedent is Wolfbrothers, and even you scratch the alternative presentation of Wolfbrothers, there's already a presentation of that kind of ability.

Weaves
- Imprint, Painted Memories. Treading the Earth. Where did these come from? Not from the novels, that's for certain.
- Shrouded Mind, Threading the Needle, Whisper Through the Black Gate. Blight of Flesh. Crisis of Breath. Quicken. Vigil of Silence. Forbiddance. These look like thinly disguised D&D spells.
- Liquefy Earth. Yeah, the Taken did this at the Stair of Tear. But that's not on the same world as the Stone of Tear.
- Spinning Earthefire. This is an objection to the name, more than anything else; it's a Lost Talent that we have know idea what it refers to.
- Aura of Flame. Cast Off. Forge Storm. Hammerhands. Killing Mist. Nice video game effect. Nobody's done this or anything like it.
- Bastion of Force. Doesn't Master Ward already do this?
- Circle of Sounds. Doesn't Voice of Power already do this?
- Ward against Intrusion. Doesn't Ward Against People already do this?

Wolfbrother madness
- Pick one revised version.

Counterweaving/cutting weaves
- Pick one alternate presentation; don't keep three or four incompatible sets of weaves and feats.

The entire New Creatures section, except for the Worm. It may just be me, but none of them seem like the stuff encountered in the Blight or any Seanchan Exotics.

Wonderous Items
- Affinity Talismans. These seem extremely powerful, and seem to be a meta-game item.
- Anchors. Chain of Gazes. Kondor's Iron Stomach. Kumera's Mystery. Merchan'ts Labor. Portal Lens. Puzzle Box. The Clasp of Vision. Hourglass of Destiny/Hourglass of Salvation. The Jade Circle of Bienre Nemora. The Vieled Window. The Weeping Women. Voraelia's Ring of Renewal. Maybe it's just me, but these don't seem like things ter'angreal can do.
- Brooch of Speed. Disk of Waves. Focal lens. Medallion of Khiber. Rod of the Night. Searing Rod. Sheath of the Keen Blade. Storage Sphere of Muradar. Teaching Crystals. The Gazing Font of Paren Deisen. Wand of Storage. These look like thinly disguised D&D items.

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Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Magai
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posted August 17, 2002 11:26 AM      Profile for Magai   Email Magai    Edit/Delete Post
Well on a Whole I LOVE THE BOOK, if wizards is not going to support us then It is up to us to come up with our own support material.
As for those who don't seem to like anything about the book I would say if you don't like it: Do it yourself seeing as how you think you could do better. (AND no I did not have anypart in writing the book but Do support those who take the time to put such grand work together.)

Well things I liked: Spell slot system, Sword forms, they just allow people to become more specialized in thier fields. If a Swordsmen wants to waste valuable Skill points on Forms let them. They will just become that more useless when put in non combat situations. (With my group this happens more often than not, very boring to be the combat guy when no combat coming)
Dia-Dore Class- DEFINITLY NEEDED, armsmen are great on own but minute they become blademasters they start to fall down alot or behind. This class allows them to keep the grace in combat that is given them in the books.
Some of the items seem a little wierd but I like that The Terangral in the books do Weird stuff and a lot of them nobody knows what they do. Great stuff. I won't give everything to my Players but hey, one or two would be nice. Face it if they had every one of these Angral, Terangral and Sa'angral the White tower would come down on them like a 40 ton pile of bricks and sweep them away.
As for Rules that contradict. I too have to say keep one and forget the others just make sure everyone can agree which one to keep. No different than your own house rules.

Sorry for going on so long but I feel that you people who wrote this book deserve more credit than you seem to be getting. I MEAN THAT. If there was a way to pay you for the time you have put in that was legal I would. As for payment I could give you, Email me and if you ever come to Edmonton AB, Contact me and I will take you too lunch. (maybe pick your brain a little but thats all)
End Rob's Rave, (not a rant not angry, Rave actually proud to stand up)

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I don't have to out Run the Trollocs, I Just have to out run YOU!!!!

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CdtData
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posted August 17, 2002 11:43 AM      Profile for CdtData   Email CdtData    Edit/Delete Post
Isn't Liquefy Earth what LTT did in the prologue? I seem to remember people sticking out of the floor as if it were molten and they'd been trapped in it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I thought it odd the Wisdom PrC didn't have any special Healing abilities. How about Skill Emphasis (Heal) or Skill Emphasis (Profession: Herbalist)? I mean, the skill Heal isn't even a prerequisite for it! Seems silly to me.

The Ogier PrC seemed off to me, too. The "skin becomes wood" thing was the weirdest. Ogier can make wood grow if they can Treesing, but having their skin become wood is just too odd, IMHO.

All in all, the netbook was really cool. I wish there were more common weaves, though. So many were Lost or Rare. The Illuminators stuff was probably my favorite, along with the Dai'dore.

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Arr MiHardies
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posted August 17, 2002 11:57 AM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
One thing I did notice was several of the pages are missing page numbers, and if you print out the book, in book style (ie. front and back of a page). well. im not sure where i was going with that thought, but ALL the page numbers are in the lower right hand corner of the page, if you print front and back of a page and then bind it into a folder or something for easy reference, you cant find the even number pages very easily because they are ALL in the crease/binding of the book. The even numbered page numbers should be on the lower LEFT and side of the page and the odds on the lower RIGHT.

Some of the weaves are insanely power, and I wouldnt let my characters have them. Ever.

But personally... I feel there is one thing missing. No Role-Playing publication is complete without a character sheet taking up the last few pages. [Devilish] Granted, I couldnt submit mine because I didnt even think to start on them until after the deadline. Ho hum

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but sooner or later...
you dance with the reaper...
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From: Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted August 17, 2002 12:08 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Magai:
Well on a Whole I LOVE THE BOOK, if wizards is not going to support us then It is up to us to come up with our own support material.
As for those who don't seem to like anything about the book I would say if you don't like it: Do it yourself seeing as how you think you could do better. (AND no I did not have anypart in writing the book but Do support those who take the time to put such grand work together.)

In the first place, I strongly object to the notion that if you can't do better yourself, you're not allowed to be a critic. You don't need to be a professional programmer to have the right to criticise software, and I don't need to be a professional game designer to criticise game mechanics.

In the second place, I have created some fan materials for d20 WoT which have been very well recieved by the community here (see the link in my signature), and am the DM of an online game that I think has a significant following.

In the third place, the things I didn't like amount to maybe a third of the netbook. Much of the rest I really liked, and pretty anything that wasn't on the 'I'd eliminate this' list above I'd allow in a game where I was GM.

Because I'm a bit less paranoid about WotC's lawyers now, and because the netbook was much better than I expected, it's quite possible that I'll contribute quite a bit for the next netbook.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eosin_the_Red
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posted August 17, 2002 02:27 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
Everybody has the right to critise! Lets not get rilled over honest - and constructive critism.

I agree with the vast majority of what Dave said. 3 things on his list should have been pulled from the book - like I said there was a last minute snafu. Some stuff made it in that should not have. Two items he listed I did not recall, had I read them they would be 86'd. But this was a collabrative effort - I could not say "my way or the highway" nor would I want to.

I will mention - the Noble is just the Revised Star Wars noble reworded. The old class stunk, no one wants to have powers that are usable once then gone. To be honest if Xyth had not done it I would have.

Some of the stuff mentioned is style - I would never use the sword forms in my games, but many peole seem to like them. It is kinda like mint ice cream, for the love of god I cannot understand why people would put it in their mouths, but they do [Big Grin]

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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Philosopher Jack
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posted August 17, 2002 03:07 PM      Profile for Philosopher Jack      Edit/Delete Post
Mr. Rothgery,

I understand it is your right to be critical, but I don't understand your reasons for being so critical. Like I said before, if you don't like the material, simply do not use it. If you would like to assist in making the material better, then by all means contribute, but to simply castigate those who have written and edited the material (myself included) because they do not meet the standards of your elite game is simply wrong and more damaging to the WOT game community than you know. The community is a collection of people, all with varying levels of interest and ideas and we tried to construct the netbook in such a way as to make it useful to this diverse group. Not everyone will like everything, but hopefully everyone can get a little something out of it.

I am especially irked at your dismissal of certain weaves because they are too similar to those found in D&D. I would like to point out certain weaves in the book that I know you are not using in your online game because they, too, are similar to those found in D&D:

Balefire - a cheap knockoff of disintegrate.
Harness the wind - Control wind, Page 189
Lightning - Call Lightning, Page 182
Raise Fog - Fog Cloud, Page 206
Compulsion - Dominate Person
Earthquake - Earthquake, man, they didn't even change the name.
Arms of Air - Telekinesis anyone?
Blade of Fire/Fiery Sword - Flame Blade. Duh.
Create Fire - Produce Flame
Fireball - WOW, did they just cut and paste here?
Fly - Ummm, Fly?
Harden Air - Hold Person
Immolate - Fireball for one?
Light - Too easy
Touch of Death - Finger of Death
Disguise - Change self
Distant eye - Arcane Eye
Folded Light - Invisibility
Create Gateway/Skimming - Teleport, Dimension Door, etc...
Firetrap - Firetrap
Seal - Arcane Lock

Okay, this is getting boring, but I hope you see my point. The players in your online game must not like playing channelers, since they have almost no weaves to use. We wouldn't want to call you a hypocrite now, so I know you have disallowed the weaves I mentioned above. If you want to use only those weaves seen in the books, Dave, you need to contact Robert Jordan himself and have him turn his notes over to us, otherwise, you may see more weaves that are similar to those found in D&D

David Benson

From: Bellingham, WA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Philosopher Jack
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posted August 17, 2002 03:09 PM      Profile for Philosopher Jack      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry for getting riled up, Eosin. [Smile]
From: Bellingham, WA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
aoMalandra
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posted August 17, 2002 04:15 PM      Profile for aoMalandra   Email aoMalandra    Edit/Delete Post
Ok droth, I have seen some of your contributions and many of them are good. However you are wrong in many instances up above. How can you say Forbiddance is not in the books, Morraine used it both in Shadar Logoth and in Caemlyn. In fact Forbiddance is much better and truer to the books than the Ward Shadowspawn Weave.

New Weaves and abilities are intoduced in every new book. Just because we haven't seen a weave or ability doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The real question is does it maintain the rules and physics of the world. Determining that question was the job of the people who put the book together and I think they did a great job. There are some things that i submitted that didn't make the cut either because someone had a better write up or it didn't meet the WoT standards and I applaud the team for this.

Lets take the Chain Weave feat as an example. I don't know how you can say this doesn't exist. The One Power is highly flexible and can be manipulated to do a lot of unusual things. With practice it is quite reasonable to assume that a Green Ajah Blight patroler might be able to figure out how to cast her fireballs so that peices of them would break off and strike other nearby targets. This in no way contradicts the world magic system. As one of many feats it will be a rare ability because not a whole lot of channelers feel the need to figure out how to make their fireballs strike other targets. One thing that I did overlook is that a chain Weave can only be used on weaves that have a duration of instantaneous.

I love other feats like Splitting the Flows which are clearly in the books. A real arguement can be made that many of the feats ands weaves have brought channelers way out of balance with the rest of the classes but this is true to the books. Game balance is something that every GM has to decide how to handle for themselves, for me I like using world situations rather than game mechanics to balance things out. The 3 oaths are a good start. People who use to much Mojo to often attract the attention of more powerful beings such as Myrdrall, Golum, Forsaken. If your channelers are being careless with their power teach them a lesson without killing them.

I like that the Editors provided several choices when there were clearly 2 good systems, let the gm's decide for themselves what they like.

The book wasn't perfect but it is darn good. I have some system differences for some things like I would use a standard DC for the Cut Weave rather than an apposed roll but this is more of a style issue.

I think droth that you would have been better served to include some positive comments along with your long list of negatives. I'm sure what will really irk some people is that you started off by stating that the things in your list you wouldn't even have included in the netbook if you had been in charge. Thank god MAB was in charge and was good enough to let the players and gm's decide what they wanted to use and not use.

Malandra
Robert Poulin

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drothgery
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posted August 17, 2002 04:40 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Philosopher Jack:
I understand it is your right to be critical, but I don't understand your reasons for being so critical. Like I said before, if you don't like the material, simply do not use it.

Five or so posts on a web discussion board saying that some things in a netbook were, in my opinion, out of line is being overly critical? Yikes.

quote:
Originally posted by Philosopher Jack:
I am especially irked at your dismissal of certain weaves because they are too similar to those found in D&D.

I'd have very little objection to a weave that seemed to be a knockoff of Meteor Swarm if the level were set high enough; big mass-damage fire weaves are something that's clearly part of the way the Power works. I'd strongly object to a weave that seemed to be a knockoff of Summon Monster I; there's no place for summoning magic in Wheel of Time.

quote:
Originally posted by Philosopher Jack:

I would like to point out certain weaves in the book that I know you are not using in your online game because they, too, are similar to those found in D&D:

Balefire - a cheap knockoff of disintegrate.
...
Seal - Arcane Lock

Okay, this is getting boring, but I hope you see my point.

Actually, I don't. Every weave on your list except Fly actually has shown up in the novels, or at least something close to it has. Variants on Mind Blank, Haste, and the like have not.

quote:
Originally posted by Philosopher Jack:
The players in your online game must not like playing channelers, since they have almost no weaves to use.

Actually, I hope that I've impressed upon my players that obvious channeling against anything other than Shadowspawn is almost always a bad idea.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
Member
Member # 70903



posted August 17, 2002 04:44 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I just wanted to say that not all of the material that didn't make it into the book was cut do to a dislike by the editors or that it wasn't in line with the feel of the novels.

This book was well over 200 pages (well over!), and some material didn't make it due to a size restraint. I submitted a bunch of stuff right at the deadline, a couple of those items made it in because they were really good....the rest, well I'm hoping for a sequel.

In many cases, we would make some minor changes to a submission to fit it in better. We were not trying to create a book with just our view on the RPG, but something that was taken from the entire community and I'd like to think that we did. But the great part is if you didn't like part of it, well, don't use it, or change it to what you want it to be.

quote:
BY CdtData
Also, I thought it odd the Wisdom PrC didn't have any special Healing abilities. How about Skill Emphasis (Heal) or Skill Emphasis (Profession: Herbalist)? I mean, the skill Heal isn't even a prerequisite for it! Seems silly to me.



And CD, I was looking at the Wisdom Prc in retrospect after your comment and I realized that not only didn't I have the Heal skill as a Preq., but I didn't even have Heal as a class skill. [Blush] I think that I would change that by adding Heal as a class skill, also adding Wilderness lore (have to be able to find the Herbs). Changing the Preq. Intimidate 5 ranks to Heal 6 ranks. My original concept was a short Prc for wilders or wise women, who were able are the local healers and some can channel (not very strong). Something like what the Kin are supposed to be, but also a normal wisdom.

--------------------
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Philosopher Jack
Member
Member # 95890



posted August 17, 2002 06:10 PM      Profile for Philosopher Jack      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually, I don't. Every weave on your list except Fly actually has shown up in the novels, or at least something close to it has. Variants on Mind Blank, Haste, and the like have not.

Again I ask you, Dave, why is it necessary to discard anything that has not been seen in the books? Do you feel that the weaves seen in the books are representative of all the weaves that could possibly exist? Heck, in the Age of Legends the One Power could probably be used to do just about anything! If you have a problem with a weave because you cannot place exactly which page it was seen on in the novels, ignore it or make it a lost weave.

I understand your point about wanting to maintain that unique feel that Robert Jordan has created with the One Power. I, personally, dislike any weave of a necromantic sort and those that heal real damage as they are, in my opinion, very much contrary to the "rules" of the One Power that Jordan has created. Weaves like Quicken (which I wrote) were not created to mirror those spells in D&D. I wrote Quicken because one of my players asked for a weave he could use to aid his warder in combat. He reasoned that he could use his Talent in Healing to do this and I saw no reason otherwise. Using the excuse that it hasn't been seen in the books or is too closely like a spell in D&D seemed ridiculous. If I understand your argument, it is okay to model a D&D spell (even word for word) if that weave is seen or mentioned in the novels, but a fan who creates a weave must ensure that it is nothing like a D&D spell. Damn, Dave, with those rules I wonder why we even bothered with the netbook.

From: Bellingham, WA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dortamur
Member
Member # 63897



posted August 17, 2002 08:27 PM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
I really like the NetBook (even if only 1 of my wondrous items made it in [Blush] ), but one thing I think I would've preferred, is if there were two netbooks. [Big Grin]

That is, of course, one for players, and one for GMs. I'm a bit loathe to point my players at this book, as I'll probably work in the adventures, and some of the wondrous items. Plus, the one item of mine that did make it in is currently a major quest item and they have no clue what it does. [Wink]

So, have a Players version, which has all the classes, feats & weaves in it. Even if the GM doesn't allow all that's in there, it'd be good for a player to browse it for ideas, and if they want to use some of it, they can negotiate with their GM.

Then have the GMs version, which has all the Wondrous Items, Adventures, Extra Creatures, Templates for bad guys, etc... And heck, it'd be good to see some NPCs in a GM guide too.

Just because the WoT RPG book has everything crammed in one volume, doesn't mean community addons can't have separate PHB and DMG equivalents. And then, you'd have more room to cram all those extra weaves and items in that didn't make the cut due to size limits! [ROFL]

Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged


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