Author
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Topic: Munchkin and
Min/Maxing |
Tristifer
Member Member # 128380
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posted May 19, 2003 03:23 PM
true, but
how is it possible for a 'sparker' to be stronger with the OP
than a trained character?
-------------------- Eth
Sularus Oth Mithas Dovie'andi se tovya
sagain Tai'shar American
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Chicago, IL | Registered: Feb 2003 |
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Varnosst
Member Member # 131580
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posted May 19, 2003 09:53 PM
Well, the thing here that I find most amusing is
that as the GM, you have all the power. Chanellers, while
powerful to be sure, can only weave so many times in a day,
and they have limits as to how fast they can weave, while as
the GM, I have no limits. They kill 20 trollocs?...no prob got
another 20 with their Sgt leader and the Mydrraal leading them
just over here. Why are the Children of the Light always
causing them grief? cuz they keep killing them...if the
channellers make it to sundown and still have weaves left, and
didn't have to sweat thru some stuff with no weaves available,
something is wrong. I count trolloc grunts as CR 1, which
means that a whole fist (200) is only worth appx 7000 XP. Sure
the first wave gets whomped, but when the weave slots gets
lower and lower level, wilders and initiates alike start
sweating. And archers are the best thing in the world. Hide,
sneak attack and fade away, most of the time without even
being seen by the PC's. To be sure, being able to weave
has its advantages, but it ain't an easy lifestyle in my
campaign.
-------------------- "The most efficient
method of dealing with this, is to neutralize them.......ALL
of them"
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Ontario, Canada | Registered: Mar 2003
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted May 20, 2003 06:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray
Skwid:
quote:
Originally posted by Tristifer: how do
you explain how a 'sparker' is more powerful with the OP
than an character that can only be trained to use the
OP?
This is not a rule. It is a
trend.
HTH.
And it's not even a general trend, as the
generalization is only close to accurate with sparkers that
get training later. Jane Random Wisdom, who doesn't know she
can channel, is usually a lot weaker than Susan
Sedai.
-------------------- Dave Rothgery Picking
nits since 1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
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San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted May 29, 2003 05:37 PM
You know, I
see no reason for a question on why players would not try to
make the most of their class abilities.
Min/Maxxing
isn't wrong, and there are only two reasons I can think of
that would prompt a thread like this.
1. Some people
don't know how to roleplay min/maxxed characters.
2.
Some people don't want others to be as strong as they are.
(i.e., some people want to have the only min/maxxed
characters)
Both of those reasons are
unreasonable.
-------------------- Instant Message
me @ JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
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posted May 30, 2003 04:34 AM
No, I think
that the point is you don't want all channelers to be cookie
cutters. If Wilder/Initiate is better in all ways than a
Wilder or an Initiate, then why would anyone not be a
Wilder/Initiate. You seem to have forgot then Min part
of MIN/MAX. If you want to be the best at one thing usually it
makes you a little weaker in another. Point being that an
Initiate should have some benefit not attainable to a Wilder,
and visa versa. Also either single class should have some
advantage over the mulitclass and visa versa. The problem is
that the Wilder Initiate combo seems to be better in all
ways.
As far as someone not wanting anyone else to have
a good character, that would apply to the very purile only.
Most of the people who have posted here are spending more time
GMing than playing, so I don't believe that could apply to
them. Heck, on the rare occasion that I play and don't GM I
want everyone else to MIN/MAX as well. Because I need someone
to MAX where I MINed. That's why characters need parties. You
would be a light blinded fool to want a bunch of useless
characters in your party.
-------------------- A man
who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran
Saying
The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter
you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. -
Shienaran Funeral Ceremony
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Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002
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Fisher-King
Member Member # 140220
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posted June 02, 2003 06:38 PM
There is a
disadvantage.
Getting high-level weave slots
later.
Look at it... a character splitting levels
between Initiate and Wilder will have oodles of low-level
slots. But he'll be a 10/10 character when the pure-classed is
a 20. That means he won't have any 9th, 8th, or I think 7th
level weave slots.
And that means that, unless you're
handing out angreal like candy, he'll be dreading that 1 on
the Concentration check every time he uses a high-level
weave.
-------------------- "You ain't gettin' me on
your goal row!"
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
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posted June 02, 2003 07:19 PM
I agree
with you Fisher King, if you play that way. A lot of people
play that you either stick with Initiate weave progression or
Wilder and don't change depending on what class you have
taken. In other words, they use the total channeler level for
determining weaves per day. (usually using Initiate
progression)
I like the way you just described and I
believe that would be sufficient to deter people from
unecessarily Multiclassing. I think that I would implement
that in my campaign. (Maybe this is the way that it is
supposed be done and I, like an idiot, just didn't realize it.
Wouldn't be the first time.)
-------------------- A
man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran
Saying
The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter
you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. -
Shienaran Funeral Ceremony
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Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002
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Fisher-King
Member Member # 140220
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posted June 04, 2003 08:12 PM
Well, it's
a lot like Sorc and Wizard in DND... nobody complains about
the cross-class of the two being too strong. Same thing with
Psion/Psychic Warrior, and that's actually a closer comparison
since you can use your power points from both classes to
manifest the powers of both classes (Wizard and Sorc, while
they have the same basic pool of spells, have to learn spells
seperately for each class they have).
The Psion/PsyWar
cross-class isn't overpowered because it takes it forever to
get the highest-level powers - it's likely that, before the
character gains his first seventh-level power, he's epic. By
comparison, the single-classed psion has far better powers
every step of the way, and the single-classed PsyWar has more
feats and a better attack bonus.
However, the
dual-classed character is better in a fight than the
single-classed Psion. And he's also a better manifester than
the single-classed PsyWar (he's got a lot more power
points).
So it evens out to them all being pretty
balanced with each other.
And, really, so should the
Wilder/Initiate thing, if you make them follow the weave/day
progressions in the book for each class.
Addendum: The
multiclass is actually balanced in this case too, since it
does have more weave/day slots. In fact, it's got more than
under your system. But they're lower level. Be REALLY careful
handing out angreal.
[ June 04, 2003, 08:17 PM:
Message edited by: Fisher-King
]
-------------------- "You ain't gettin' me
on your goal row!"
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Merclaar
Member Member # 67223
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posted June 04, 2003 10:35 PM
Ahh Fisher
King, you know in WoT (as per rules) the Wilder Initiate
Levels stacks?
As far as I know ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Munchkin and Min-Maxing (3)_fichiers/wink.gif)
[ June 04, 2003, 10:35 PM: Message
edited by: Merclaar
]
-------------------- cu
-- Merclaar
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted June 07, 2003 01:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by
Fisher-King: Addendum: The multiclass is actually
balanced in this case too, since it does have more weave/day
slots. In fact, it's got more than under your system. But
they're lower level. Be REALLY careful handing out
angreal.
There are two flaws in this brought out by the WoT
system. The first is that if you play it "by the book", a W/I
gets an extra Affinity and Talent mearly for taking the other
class.
Even were you to remove this (as I suggest all
people should), there's also the fact that W2/I2 gets 3
channeling feats, which allows them to take extra affinities,
which when they have them all allows them to channel a weave
one level lower, thus nullifying the Wilder progression table.
Add to it that you can still cast 0-2 weaves outside
of the Talents you have (0-3 if you have the affinities),
still get the +5 when overchanneling, and the +4 to
weavesight.
Add to this that at level 15 (W2/I13) the
Initiate progression table now equals the Wilder one, and
starts to beat it from then on.
Add to this that you
get a +2 to Fort and Will in one level that would have taken
five levels of straight Wilder to get.
The only
disadvantage is you have a block, which can be removed with
one of your many extra Channeling feats, and a you have to
join the White Tower, which gives you even more power socially
(if used correctly).
W 2/I 18 is by far the best
Min/Max channeler.
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Fisher-King
Member Member # 140220
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posted June 07, 2003 08:52 PM
Let me look
in the book.
Assuming attributes of 18 in all three
channeling stats, this is what the Wilder2/Initiate18
has:
0: 6 1: 9 2: 9 3: 6 4: 6 5: 4 6:
4 7: 3 8: 2 9: 1
Whereas an Initiate20
has: 0: 4 1: 6 2: 6 3: 6 4: 6 5: 4 6:
4 7: 4 8: 4 9: 4
Honestly, I'd rather have the
extra ninth, eighth, and seventh level slots than the ability
to cast second-level weaves cross-Talent. By twentieth level,
a channeler should probably have all five Affinities and all
the Talents they plan to use... there's no need for worrying
about feats. In levels before that, the multiclass is slowing
itself down. I'd take pure Initiate over Initiate/Wilder any
day of the week.
And I don't think that, by the book,
Initiate and Wilder levels stack in terms of weave slots per
day.
I do agree with denying the cross-class the second
free affinity and talent... those are, IMHO, meant for the
beginning channeler, not an experienced channeler who takes on
a new class. It's a lot like the quadruple skill points at
first level - you don't give those to someone who
cross-classes into Wanderer for the same
reason.
-------------------- "You ain't gettin' me
on your goal row!"
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Slidell, LA | Registered: May 2003 |
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted June 07, 2003 09:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fisher-King: [QB]Honestly,
I'd rather have the extra ninth, eighth, and seventh level
slots than the ability to cast second-level weaves
cross-Talent. By twentieth level, a channeler should
probably have all five Affinities and all the Talents they
plan to use... there's no need for worrying about feats. In
levels before that, the multiclass is slowing itself down.
I'd take pure Initiate over Initiate/Wilder any day of the
week. [QB]
But you get all the advantages of a Initiate and all
the advantages of a Wilder with W/I. The weave levels do stack
by the book, and W/I uses the Initiate weaves / level chart.
That was my point was that the Initiate weaves/ level is
better because you get more channeling feats (to get more
affinities earlier) and after level 15 you kick more ass
anyway.
The only advantage a pure Initiate has is they
don't have a block and don't have to use a feat to remove it.
But they don't get the +5 to Concentration and Fortitude when
overchanneling or the cross-talent 0-2 levels ability, or the
+2 to Fort and Will.
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Snow Crash
Member Member # 85099
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posted June 09, 2003 04:45 AM
Ah,
fisher-king dude, the rules actually state that when a pc
multiclasses Initiate/Wilder. In order to get weave slot
totals use the total channeler class levels and look itup on
the initiate table.
Therefore a wilder2/initiate18
would have exactly the same weave slots as an initiate20
except hey would gain the bonus weaves from a third stat.
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Snow Crash
Member Member # 85099
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posted June 09, 2003 04:54 AM
besides as
I was chatting to my GM about this the other day. Min/Max
characters have a disadvantage as well, It's the min. We have
a pc in our group with two weapon attack, powerwrought swords
a whole lot of combat feats etc. He gets 4 attacks per round
and does an average of 50+ points of damage per round. The
point is as a GM you also need to point out his min every now
and then as well. He has spent all his feats and points in
combat. Stick him in a situation where he requires stealth or
social skills, give him an enemy that can hardly be seen and
make him make search rolls and he is going to fall flat on his
face.
Also as a GM remember that what ever the PCs can
do so can the important NPCs. Take this guy and pit him
against a real blademaster "you look to young to have that
heron boy. Let's see if you're worthy of it"
The same
with powerful channelers, they can come up against other
powerful channelers as well, a mi/maxed channeler can't do
much when they are shielded. If you as a GM have to fudge a
few dice rolls or stats to make it happen, then do so; thats
what a GM's screen is made for. It's up to you to make the
game a challenge and to make it enjoyable (these two usually
go together by the way)
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted June 09, 2003 10:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash: If you as
a GM have to fudge a few dice rolls or stats to make it
happen, then do so; thats what a GM's screen is made for.
And thus we get to the root of why players do Min/Max.
Many feel they need the best possible character in order to
survive all the monsters and traps and Rule 0's that the DMs
throw at them.
This isn't so much a problem with WoT
because it's low magic and most players and GMs play it for
the RP aspects. But in D&D, where magic has no rules,
monsters can do anything, and Prestige classes are like super
powers, players do whatever they can to get that extra
advantage. And Min/Maxers don't have to fudge the dice rules.
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted June 09, 2003 11:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MT: This isn't so much a
problem with WoT because it's low magic and most players and
GMs play it for the RP aspects.[/QB]
WoT is low in magic items, and weilders of magic are
relatively rare (and if the GM is trying to keep things close
to the novels, high-level weilders of magic are exceedingly
rare). But it's not low in magic power. While I'd bet on a by
the book Cleric 20 or Wizard 20 against an Initiate 20 or a
Wilder 20, it certainly wouldn't be a sure
thing.
-------------------- Dave Rothgery Picking
nits since 1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
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MT
Member Member # 88155
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posted June 09, 2003 12:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery: [QUOTE]WoT
is low in magic items, and weilders of magic are relatively
rare (and if the GM is trying to keep things close to the
novels, high-level weilders of magic are exceedingly rare).
But it's not low in magic power.
Yes, I was refering to the magic items portion rather
than the power of channelers. In D&D, an average character
is stacked with healing potions, wands of healing, +1-+3
magical weapons, things that give you haste, ability bonuses,
make you invisible, blurred, able to climb walls, able to open
doors, etc.
As a barbarian you can have the ability to
buff yourself, steal like a thief, shoot arrows like an
archer, cast fireballs, spew fire breath, etc etc; all with
the right amount of money. Conversely, all the opponents you
fight can as well, plus many of the monsters in D&D are
built around countering all the magic that players are assumed
to have. It's a visious cycle that everyone seems to love and
enjoy, as indicated by the volumes of new spells and items
that come out every year.
Anyway, that's my D&D
rant, and how it forced min/maxers into being.
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Fisher-King
Member Member # 140220
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posted June 09, 2003 04:42 PM
The best
way to deal with a min/maxed character is to isolate them.
Min/maxed characters rely on having someone else cover their
min, so when they're stuck by themselves, they're pretty much
doomed when they encounter their min.
For example, you
take the super-channeler, isolate them, and then put them in a
room with a group of angry
Seanchan...
-------------------- "You ain't gettin'
me on your goal row!"
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Snow Crash
Member Member # 85099
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posted June 11, 2003 05:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MT:
quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash: If you
as a GM have to fudge a few dice rolls or stats to make it
happen, then do so; thats what a GM's screen is made for.
And thus we get to the root of why players do
Min/Max. Many feel they need the best possible character in
order to survive all the monsters and traps and Rule 0's
that the DMs throw at them.
This isn't so much a
problem with WoT because it's low magic and most players and
GMs play it for the RP aspects. But in D&D, where magic
has no rules, monsters can do anything, and Prestige classes
are like super powers, players do whatever they can to get
that extra advantage. And Min/Maxers don't have to fudge the
dice rules.
If the players are min/maxing in order to combat the
GMs bending rules then the GM is doing it too often, as I said
the idea is to do it only when it helps advance the story,
remember, you, as a GM, are there to hekp things flow. Too
many (GMs and PCs alike) get it into their heads that this is
a game of one side vs the other, GM vs player. If thats the
case then you are playing for the wrong reasons. Don't play to
win, play to have fun and enjoy the story as it unfolds.
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Xenocide
Member Member # 52270
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posted June 11, 2003 11:11 AM
I think the
problem is one of definition. We have only a few main
characters who were self-trained to any degree. Nynaeve,
Liandrin, Rand, the False Dragons. The rest were guided by
others to learn how to channel. My House rules hold that if
you start out a Wilder you stay a Wilder unless you switch to
Initiate in which case you lose the weave slots and start
over. You keep feats earned but you have to learn a new style
of channelling.
In real terms, this would almost never
happen. That is why wilders are so distinct within the Tower,
they are different.
On a side note, a sul'dam has no
channelling skill, just possibly a few ranks in weavesight
with the potential to become an initiate and most damane would
be initiates trained by other damane and sul'dams.
A
small question, how do you deal with max channelling
abilities. I would probably not enforce these on a PC but an
NPC who can't attain the shawl. Is these some inborn max # of
levels a channeller can have? What do they do when they're
full? Browns, Whites, and Yellows I can see going expert while
Greens take Armsmen or something like that. Any
ideas?
-------------------- When reality and I
conflict, reality is wrong (Great DM slogan)
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted June 11, 2003 12:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Xenocide: A small
question, how do you deal with max channelling abilities. I
would probably not enforce these on a PC but an NPC who
can't attain the shawl. Is these some inborn max # of levels
a channeller can have?
There isn't anything defined in the rulebook, but if
you, as a GM, roughly equate level with strength in the Power,
I'd work off the following guidelines
17+ channeler
levels - Forsaken and roughly equivalent 15-16 -
Supergirls; Cadsuane, Elayne 13-14 - Strong Aes Sedai;
Sheriam, Moiraine 11-12 - Above-Average Aes Sedai 9-10 -
Average Aes Sedai 7-8 - Below Average/inexeperienced Aes
Sedai
Lila Elisor in my online game is 8th level
because she's only been AS for two years. She's potentially
very strong, and will top out at level 14 if she sticks around
that long.
quote:
Originally posted by Xenocide: What do
they do when they're full? Browns, Whites, and Yellows I can
see going expert while Greens take Armsmen or something like
that. Any ideas?
I'd think Noble in most
cases.
-------------------- Dave Rothgery Picking
nits since 1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted June 15, 2003 01:51 PM
MinMax is
not done in roleplaying game only. When they design the first
space caputal for man to go into space they have only so much
weight they can carry and a certain volume to fit it all in.
So they first have to consider what was the most inportant
item needed first. They didnot add than indoor swimming pool
or than dinnaring room either.
From: El
Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP:
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