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Author Topic: (***Spoilers from CoT***) New Rules for CoT
Melriken
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posted February 22, 2003 06:31 PM      Profile for Melriken   Email Melriken    Edit/Delete Post
hey guys why dont you submitt some of this to the Netbook project? Email it to wotnetbook@madmab.com and let them maybe publish it?

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The prior post is in no way intended to represent the thoughts and/or opinions of the author. Read at your own risk.

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JosephKell
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posted February 22, 2003 08:03 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
quote:
I know Deflect Arrows isn't in the Wheel of Time book, but if a GM allowed the feat, would it seem fair if someone used that feat with a weapon made of Cuendillar, to parry a Balefire beam like Rand did in The Dragon Reborn?
The real question is how cinematic do you want to get? There are people in the real world who can block, break, or even catch arrows - I've seen it done. But blocking a beam weapon, that's another matter; even the Jedi can only do it because they possess a limited sort of precognition. Personally, I'd be inclined to say no, but this is *definitely* a GM call. And of course the reaction would be something along the lines of

[Dropjaw]

The normal Reflex save is DC 20 for Deflect Arrows, so maybe increasing it to DC 30. For deflecting bullets with a melee weapon I use DC 30, but the item used to block takes damage instead of you. So I think this could use the same lines. So someone could use a Steel sword, and just have the sword burnt from the pattern...

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Duloth
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posted February 23, 2003 11:59 AM      Profile for Duloth   Email Duloth    Edit/Delete Post
Why not just make Deflect Arrows work like Expertise.... or, hell, just make Expertise apply to reflex saves. Just have Bale-Fire negate this sort of bonus normally, but when you've got a weapon or armor of Heartstone, you can still get it.

Make sense, eh?

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JosephKell
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posted February 23, 2003 02:31 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Deflect Arrows is powerful in its own right, allowing Expertise to do what Deflect Arrows does is unbalanced. As much as I would love one feat to do both, my conscience keeps yelling in my ear.

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-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
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Dave Shramek
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posted February 24, 2003 08:47 AM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
The nine weeks figure I came up with for a mail shirt was based on the assumption that you can change a multipart item into cuendillar without fusing it, if you change one piece at a time.

But that would fuse it. You would essentially have a fiew patches of unmovable, fused rings attached together in a shirt shape. You'd end up with a hole-riddled platemail shirt.

quote:
I can see no theoretical reason why this should not be possible; can anyone else? Remember that Egwene set the weaves on the harbour chain as a whole, not individual links.
Yes, she did that because she wanted to fuse the chain into one unbreakable length, in effect, blockading the White Tower. The fused cuendillar chain could no longer be lowered to let supply ships into the Tower.

And as a point of fact to anyone who looks at the making of cuendillar. There's a reason no cuendillar has survived to the current age. It's possible that people who made it weren't powerful in Earth and Egwene's power in Earth is an exceptional thing, like Nyneave and Flinn's Healing. I don't think so. She learned how to make cuendillar from Moggy, at least in part. This means there had to be anther reason no one did it. Well, weapons wouldn't work because the weight would diminish and it would be like attacking people with sharp plastic swords, useless. Armor would be happy except that I don't think Armor was popular in the AoL.

We don't know what happens when you take an iron piece (like a ring in a chain shirt) looped through a piece of cuendillar and make it cuendillar. Either, the weave fails because Cuendillar absorbs it, or it fuses with the existing cuendillar.

I say don't worry about it. It won't work for arms and armor. A shield might work, but they are unpopular.

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As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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aleshandre
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posted February 24, 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
I don't see why the weave should be absorbed by the cuendillar. It is known to absorb any force that is intended to destroy it, but a weave that turns iron to cuendillar is not absorbed by the portion that has been changed when the process takes several sessions. In point of fact, cuendillar does not absorb weaves, only the destructive force that is created by them. [Wink]

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Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
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Whitewinds
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posted February 24, 2003 10:16 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Whitewinds:
[qb]The nine weeks figure I came up with for a mail shirt was based on the assumption that you can change a multipart item into cuendillar without fusing it, if you change one piece at a time.

But that would fuse it. You would essentially have a fiew patches of unmovable, fused rings attached together in a shirt shape. You'd end up with a hole-riddled platemail shirt.

quote:
I can see no theoretical reason why this should not be possible; can anyone else? Remember that Egwene set the weaves on the harbour chain as a whole, not individual links.
Yes, she did that because she wanted to fuse the chain into one unbreakable length, in effect, blockading the White Tower. The fused cuendillar chain could no longer be lowered to let supply ships into the Tower.

Exactly my point: She set the weave on the entire chain at once, treating it as a single object. Can anyone here see any reason why it would not be possible to take an object with many parts and set the weaves on each part individually, one at a time? Individual gears in a clock, links in a necklace, whatever.

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shadow-dancer
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posted February 24, 2003 11:26 AM      Profile for shadow-dancer      Edit/Delete Post
Random ramblings on the subject of chain mail.

I've made chain mail for live roleplay and making it takes a hell of a long time by hand - each individual link needs to be twisted open with pliars and joined to the next. My mail was done in a hexagonal pattern with 6mm and 12mm rings, but a more realistic type I'd say would be with 6mm or 8mm links tightly woven together and this takes ages to make (6mm links tightly woven took my boyfriend an evening to make an approximate strip of 10" by 4", not including time taken to split the links first).

Bearing in mind something that would look like this http://freespace.virgin.net/daniel.w/aa/gfx/gorget.jpg is about what I'd say chainmail should be woven, imagine that into a shirt and imagine seperating off each individual link from the rest to turn it into heartstone - i'd say its a near impossible task. You couldn't turn links into heartstone individually and then join them, because you can't bend them to join them. Best you could do would be 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 links being heartstone in my opinion.

I am of course assuming here that armour was made in a similar way in medieval times to how I made mine! I may be wrong!

Plate armour is a possibility depending on how heavy the heartstone ends up, but you would have to make each piece individually and the chain or cord that joins the pieces would still be normal.

Plates like this http://freespace.virgin.net/daniel.w/aa/gfx/scale_types.jpg may make better heartstone armour but you would still probably be stuck with joining them with normal links or trying to turn links into heartstone while keeping the rest of teh bits off them!

Just my random thoughts - oh and chainmail making gives you horrible blisters and green fingers when you use copper links!!

If anyone is interested - I got the piccies from here - http://www.armchairarmoury.com/

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"For once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes, a land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous . . ."
"Tell stories full of valour, of dragons and their shining deeds..."

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Dave Shramek
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posted February 24, 2003 11:34 AM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
I don't see why the weave should be absorbed by the cuendillar. It is known to absorb any force that is intended to destroy it, but a weave that turns iron to cuendillar is not absorbed by the portion that has been changed when the process takes several sessions. In point of fact, cuendillar does not absorb weaves, only the destructive force that is created by them. [Wink]

Just listing all the possible reasons we don't see cuendillar armor. I don't think it's even a possibility and I think the point of this discussion should be more in figuring out why it doesn't work. If it did work, we'd see it in the fiction, around AoL times, especially due to battles with balefire. Thus, we shouldn't allow our players to create something even the AoL people didn't have. When they ask why, we need to be able to give them a satisfactory reason for why.

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As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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Dave Shramek
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posted February 24, 2003 11:40 AM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
Exactly my point: She set the weave on the entire chain at once, treating it as a single object. Can anyone here see any reason why it would not be possible to take an object with many parts and set the weaves on each part individually, one at a time? Individual gears in a clock, links in a necklace, whatever.

Yes, for the same reason the weave the Aes Sedai know for Healing only Heals everything. The weave itself probably sees everything as one piece, especially if they are touching. Especially since the weave is moved along the material to turn it, I doubt any Aes Sedai has the control to stop the weave at the point the two pieces touch and then let it go at that. And, like I said, there's a possibility (strong in my opinion) that when iron is turned to cuendillar it fuses with the neighboring cuendillar. This is what allows the Salidar Aes Sedai to come back to pieces half finished. Otherwise, the cuendillar might not like being kept in a state of fusion with the rest of the iron and break at the point of merger.

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As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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aleshandre
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posted February 24, 2003 02:27 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Although I wouldn't allow PCs or NPCs to have heartstone armor, I believe that it would be possible. For the folowing reasons:

Chainmail: As each link is made, it is set with the proper bends in advance, then turned prior to attaching the next link to it in the following manner: make link, change it, make next link, set in place, change it, repeat until mail is complete. (by the way, with the holes in chain mail, parts of a balefire attack or other energy based attack would get through) The last link in a circuit would have to be linked through both the first and second to last ring before changing it.

Plate Mail(and any plate configuration): make iron pieces for the armor, set the plates onto a leather shirt (or pants, etc) with iron rivets, turn plate and rivets simultaneously, repeat for next plate until whole armor is complete. This method should leave very little in the way of holes, but eventually the leather will dry, crack and decay rendering the armor useless.

There is no evidence that you can't produce it in this manner and it is possible that RJ just didn't think of cuendillar armor or even weapons. Also, it has never been stated that cuendillar is lighter than the iron it was made from. It may infact be heavier or more likely equal in weight. [Razz]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

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Whitewinds
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posted February 24, 2003 03:26 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
One possible explanation is that even during the AoL, cuendillar was regarded as very much a luxury material, and when warfare was being rediscovered, personal armour was all but useless against things like fireballs, shocklances, poison gas, etc. so nobody bothered to make something so useless as heartstone armour. As for weapons, again, why? Shocklances, firethrowers, etc. don't gain from being made of it, so why bother? Sure, someone came up with the idea of Power-wrought swords, but those were almost certainly more status symbols than actual, practical weapons. Just because Moiraine said they were made during the War of Power, it does not necessarily follow that she was right.
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aleshandre
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posted February 24, 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
This is an excelent explanation of why it would not have been made without arguing against the possibility of it being made. [Wink]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

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aleshandre
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posted February 24, 2003 07:10 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
OOPS

[ February 24, 2003, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: aleshandre ]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
aleshandre
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posted February 24, 2003 07:13 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Boy, I feel dumb! triple post.

[ February 24, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: aleshandre ]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whitewinds
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posted February 26, 2003 09:24 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
Let me try again.

To create cuendillar, you first wrap the object to be changed in a net of Earth, Air and Fire, then extend through the net a weave of Fire and Earth. The object within the net then changes at a rate determined by your strength in the Power. This is laid out in the novel, quite clearly.

Now, given the above, can anyone see why it would not be possible to wrap the net around a single link in a chain, a single gear in a clock, one part in a blacksmith's puzzle, or any other discrete piece of a complex object and thereby change only that one piece?

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Lord Schpungus
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posted February 26, 2003 02:03 PM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
It's impossible because no matter how wonderful your skill in weaving, the outer net is going to be around part of the other pieces of the object. Anything in the outer web is fused together.
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Whitewinds
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posted February 26, 2003 02:19 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
I'm not so sure. If you can use the net to move the piece (and the example of the fused goblets wolud seem to indicate you can), then you'd be able to keep it out of contact with other pieces. It's no different than wrapping the pieces in cloth. Granted, this wouldn't work for a clock, but even there you could transmute the parts then assemble them.

[ February 26, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Whitewinds ]

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Dave Shramek
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posted February 26, 2003 03:42 PM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
I'm still sticking with the fiction on this one. If it were possible or plausible, we'd see it somewhere.

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As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted February 26, 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
I can't remember where balefire and cuendillar came into contact in the book. Could someone give me the book reference people are basing the assumption that cuendillar deflects balefire on?

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"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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Whitewinds
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posted February 26, 2003 07:48 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
Well, in the RPG the balefire weaves states that the beam cuts through everything except cuendillar.
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Xythlord
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posted February 26, 2003 08:15 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I don't have my books with me at the moment but wasn't it during the fight between Nyn and Moghy in the palace of the Panarch in Tanchico. Some of the Black Sisters came down with the ter'angreal that shot balefire and ended up scattering a shot on one of the pieces of cuendillar.

If somebody would look that up for me, I would appreciate it! I believe it is in the end of Book 4, The Shadow Rising.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted February 26, 2003 08:24 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord:
If somebody would look that up for me, I would appreciate it! I believe it is in the end of Book 4, The Shadow Rising.

Yep, here we go: TSR, p. 912 (paperback)

quote:
...the cuendillar figures were all that dropped out of that molten white shaft, bouncing on the floor.
The figurines did not break, of course. It seemed Moghedien was right; not even balefire could destroy cuendillar.

I hadn't remembered that part...

In light of this, I don't see why shields couldn't be made into cuendillar. Especially in the Age of Legends, I don't see why they might not have come up with this solution, unless the weapons they used unleashed so much balefire that shields would have been of no use...

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"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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Whitewinds
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posted February 26, 2003 08:44 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
[
quote:
...the cuendillar figures were all that dropped out of that molten white shaft, bouncing on the floor.
The figurines did not break, of course. It seemed Moghedien was right; not even balefire could destroy cuendillar.

I hadn't remembered that part...

In light of this, I don't see why shields couldn't be made into cuendillar. Especially in the Age of Legends, I don't see why they might not have come up with this solution, unless the weapons they used unleashed so much balefire that shields would have been of no use...[/QB][/QUOTE]Remember, balefire was used on a huge scale, probably deployed by the equivalent of the laser head from the Honor Harrington novels: A single burst of the Power, channeled into dozens of one-shot ter'angreal that ecah release a single beam of balefire. So every target is getting shot from many, many angles at once, making shields impractical.

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aleshandre
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posted February 26, 2003 09:22 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Whitewind,
I suggest you do your write up and submit it to the netbook (just for argument's sake; using both versions for chainmail).
Everyone,
Rather than continuing to debate this, lets recognize the differences of oppinion and if you like it or think it can be done, party on, if not, no big deal don't use it. [Big Grin]

But for cryin' out loud, lets not [pileson] more debate.

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged


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