Author
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Topic: Oath
Violation? |
Arr MiHardies
Member Member # 86473
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posted September 15, 2002 10:07 AM
Heres a
question. There is an aes sedai in my group who was made
damane and rescued. The group later incounters a group of
seanchan. The Aes Sedai cant fight back because she knows she
is not in danger of her life. They want her alive. now. her
warder is a channeler. could she link with him, with him
leading the circle and doing all the attacks, and still be
obeying the oaths?
-------------------- You might be
a king... or a little street sweeper... but sooner or
later... you dance with the
reaper... ----------------------------- professional D20
Character Sheets, NPC Sheets, and DM screens http://amhsheets.notcrazy.com/
From:
Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jun 2002
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WB
Member Member # 64988
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posted September 15, 2002 11:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Arr MiHardies: Heres
a question. There is an aes sedai in my group who was made
damane and rescued. The group later incounters a group of
seanchan. The Aes Sedai cant fight back because she knows
she is not in danger of her life. They want her alive. now.
her warder is a channeler. could she link with him,
with him leading the circle and doing all the attacks, and
still be obeying the oaths?
"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except
against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of the defense of
her own life, or that of her Warder, or that of another
Sister."
If the Seanchen get her Warder and find
that he can channel, they will kill him. If they try to take
her, his duty is to defend her and they will kill him for
resisting. She is defending the life of her warder. I don't
see it as breaking the oath so I would have no problem with
her linking and taking part in the attack.
If she still
saw it as breaking the oath, she could still use the One Power
to delay and hinder the enemy from attacking the party.
Hardened air around weapons, fog banks, false walls, etc.
would all be fine. Remember, it's all a matter of perception.
If she is not trying to injure or kill them, is she really
attacking them?
[ September 15, 2002, 11:40 AM:
Message edited by: WB
]
-------------------- WB
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Arr MiHardies
Member Member # 86473
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posted September 15, 2002 02:12 PM
Well, she
is a green, all she really has are damagin weaves, with few
exceptions. and chances are the seanchan wouldnt be able to
find out the warder can channel. so unless they fought back,
their lives wouldnt be in danger as long as they swore the
oaths. but there was no way the green would allow herself to
become damane again. so they have to fight to keep the green
free, but they cant fight witout creating the danger to their
lives in the first place.
-------------------- You
might be a king... or a little street sweeper... but
sooner or later... you dance with the
reaper... ----------------------------- professional D20
Character Sheets, NPC Sheets, and DM screens http://amhsheets.notcrazy.com/
From:
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dscrank
Member Member # 56185
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posted September 15, 2002 07:26 PM
I say let
the player try to explain the character's reasoning around the
Oaths. As long as the Aes Sedai can convince herself that
she's not really breaking the Oaths, let her. If you don't
think the reasoning is sound, or if you don't think she really
believes it, then exact a penalty. It's a judgement call, but
Aes Sedai have been skirting around the edges of breaking the
oath for a long time. It should be dangerous, but not
impossible.
-------------------- -Donald S.
Crankshaw
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Wowbangers the
Infinitely Prolonged Member Member
# 101183
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posted September 15, 2002 07:53 PM
I think
that regardless of if or if not the warder can channel, he
will defend his Aes Sedai's life. In any case the Seanchan
will try to kill him. I have yet to here of a damane wuth a
warder. So I think she has just cause to use the Power to
protect him. (or why bother linking, just have her act
defensively, and the male channeler whoop on
them...
-------------------- I have gone out to look
for myself. If I should happen to return before I get back,
please tell myself to wait.
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted September 15, 2002 08:04 PM
Also
remember as far as the 2nd oath goes, the Aes Sedai that
accompanied Perrin to rescue Rand at Dumai's Well, actually
entered battle in order to be able to use the One Power. It
became a matter of self defense when they placed themselves
within harm's way. Furthermore the weaves that they were using
were not specifically designed to harm only one person, many
of the Aes Sedai justified harming groups by identifying that
entire group as trying to harm them.
Also remember that
the Seanchan capture or kill Marath damane, if the Aes
Sedai has no intention of ever being captured again, then that
would leave only one choice for the Seanchan, necessitating
the defense of her life.
-------------------- Only
two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and
I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 -
1955)
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
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posted September 16, 2002 07:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Arr MiHardies: Heres
a question. There is an aes sedai in my group who was made
damane and rescued. The group later incounters a group of
seanchan. The Aes Sedai cant fight back because she knows
she is not in danger of her life. They want her alive. now.
her warder is a channeler. could she link with him, with him
leading the circle and doing all the attacks, and still be
obeying the oaths?
I think everyone has answered this pretty well. The
Warder will move to protect her, and thus, will be attacked.
She has every right to defend him. Now, watch out whether she
let's it go too far.
Also, I could be remembering
wrong, but I thought only women could lead a man-woman
linking? I remember multiple comments to this end. Anyone else
remember better?
-------------------- felicia AKA
Freya Culadin
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dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002 |
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted September 16, 2002 08:40 AM
Although
the Corebook doesn't state it, according to the BBoBA, "In
most cases either a man or a woman can lead the circle, but a
woman must initiate the circle –and in the case of a circle of
seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman or in most
circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a
man must lead."
So if the Aes Sedai's warder could
also channel, then if they linked, he would be in control of
the circle. Unless of course she linked with another sister
first.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
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posted September 16, 2002 09:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord: Although
the Corebook doesn't state it, according to the BBoBA,
"In most cases either a man or a woman can lead the
circle, but a woman must initiate the circle –and in the
case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man
and one woman or in most circles of up to thirteen which
contain more than one man, a man must
lead."
Ah, 'initiate the circle,' that was it. Thanks. ![[Smile]](Wizards_Com Boards Oath Violation_fichiers/smile.gif)
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 14, 2003 02:48 AM
The oath I
belive is to mean that no Aes Sedai is going round attack
people or place with the one power because she feel like
it. Let say than innkeeper insult her, because he insult her
she cannot channel fireball when she leave to burn down the
inn will be against the oath. But it she use the one power to
have his pant falldown in forent of his customer will most
likely be not breaking the oath. If she doesnot want to be
than damane against useing the one power to avoid that state
isnot breaking the oath.
From: El
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Moon-Hawk
Member Member # 107830
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posted April 14, 2003 05:52 AM
Back to the
original question, can an Aes Sedai linked with a male
channeler harm people with the power. The oaths constrain
action; if you try to do something that violates an oath, you
are prevented. When the Aes Sedai initiates the link,
certainly no one is being harmed, no violations there. One
woman and one man in a circle means the man must control. The
Aes Sedai no longer has any control over what happens. She can
not channel any of her own weaves, she can not use ter-angreal
that require channeling, and she can not break the link. The
one person leading the circle is the one person in total
control. Some of the forsaken talk about this, although it
escapes me who. So the oaths can not restrict her. The male
channeler can use both halves of the power to wreak whatever
destruction he wants, until such time as HE decides to break
the link. If two Aes Sedai were linked with a man, and one of
the Aes Sedai were controlling the circle, then the oaths
would constrain her use of both halves of the power. It's
"Never to use the One Power as a weapon...", not "Never to use
Saidar as a weapon...", so no tricky loopholes
there.
-------------------- I've learned too many
systems. Sometimes I even forget which system is the REAL
world uses. Uh-oh.
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted April 14, 2003 11:21 AM
Frankly,
the Oaths are very nearly meaningless in my experience; the
Aes Sedai can't break them, but they can and do wriggle and
twist around them so much that the Oaths don't constrain them
all that much - witness the hash they make of the First Oath,
to speak no word which is not true. And in the books, Moiraine
channels fireballs at a raken, it's obviously Shadowspawn. She
doesn't test it to be sure, she just attacks. Even though the
rider will be hurt too, the Third Oath doesn't restrain her at
all. And even the second can be gotten around, to make no
weapon for one man to kill another: Make a weapon that won't
kill a man, or that a man cannot use. And I've seen all of
these exceptions and loopholes used in online games.
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted April 14, 2003 11:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds: And in
the books, Moiraine channels fireballs at a raken, it's
obviously Shadowspawn. She doesn't test it to be sure, she
just attacks. Even though the rider will be hurt too, the
Third Oath doesn't restrain her at all.
Eh?
Cite,
please.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 14, 2003 03:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sophiathegreen: The
oath I belive is to mean that no Aes Sedai is going round
attack people or place with the one power because she
feel like it. Let say than innkeeper insult her, because he
insult her she cannot channel fireball when she leave to
burn down the inn will be against the oath. But it she use
the one power to have his pant falldown in forent of his
customer will most likely be not breaking the oath. If
she doesnot want to be than damane against useing the one
power to avoid that state isnot breaking the
oath.
First it than Innkeeper say to than woman who is than
Aes Sedai get your ugly face out of my inn. It would break
the oath for her to cast fireball at the inn to burn it down
as she leave. Use than weave to have his pant falldown with
other round that not break the oath as no real harm is done to
the man. The speak no word that is not true does it mean
formal under than oath like at a trail to tell the trueth.
An it she tell something which she think is the trueth but
turn out to be false did she liar or told the trueth of she
saw it.
The second oath might mean to not give men of
one kingdom powerful weapons to fight each other and weaking
each other so the dark fiend can win.
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
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posted April 14, 2003 08:23 PM
Moon
Hawk,
The forsaken that you are trying to think about
is Sammel. In book 6, he suggests to Graendal that they link.
She of course doesn't, because after she initiated the link,
she would lose all control. Sammel would have complete control
of the One power and he would decide when to end the
link.
Back to the question at hand, Aes sedai and
warders are NOT easy targets to be captured. Otherwise, people
would always capture them and hold them for ransom or
something. They would just say, "Don't worry, I'm not going to
hurt you." And then go grab them. Honestly, if an aes sedai
felt threatened her warder and herself would fight for their
lives regardless of their
intentions.
-------------------- A man who will not
die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying
The
Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last
embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral
Ceremony
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
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posted April 15, 2003 06:58 AM
Our best
example to answer this question lies with the Aes Sedai who
are made damane. The Aes Sedai are still held by the Three
Oaths, yet we get no indication that the Sul'dam have any
trouble using them as weapons against their enemies. (well,
besides the Aes Sedai's natural stubbornness) If the forced
a'dam link held the Aes Sedai to their Oaths, the Aes Sedai
would be of no use to the Seanchan as damane.
So, yes,
a linked Aes Sedai who is not a circle leader can be 'used' to
perform offensive weaves. At least, that's the impression I
get.
[ April 15, 2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited
by: Freya
]
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted April 15, 2003 04:26 PM
Uh,
actually an Aes Sedai cannot use the One Power as a weapon,
except in the last defense of her life or.......etc. Even Aes
Sedai damane cannot be forced to use the One Power this way.
Suldam have to make the damane cast the weave, but otherwise
yes you are right, the leader of a circle can cast whatever
they feel like irregardless of what the linked members want,
after they have accepted the link into the circle.
This
is from the Wotmania interview with RJ
Question: How
is it possible for Aes Sedai who have taken the Three Oaths to
become damane and use the One Power as a weapon?
RJ:
They can't us the One Power as a weapon, not in any
conventional sense. This presents some problems for the
Seanchan, but then, damane are used for more than just
weapons. And from the Seanchan point of view, at worst, an Aes
Sedai who has been collared is one less marath'damane running
around loose and doing the horrible things that their history
tells them such women inevitably do. Remember, Seanchan
history records a time under Aes Sedai rule, when no one could
go to sleep at night with the certainty they would wake in the
morning and Aes Sedai took whatever they wanted and killed
anyone who crossed or opposed them. To the Seanchan, just
removing these horrors from the board is a win.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 16, 2003 02:11 AM
Also I
donot think these oath are mean to be written in stone. I than
reading the second book the second oath carry out total. To
make no weapon which use the one power to be use by man
against man. Rand power-wrought blade is over 3500 year old at
least.
Also I read in the second book one of the Aes
Sedai was loseing the will to fight the Sul'dam command to go
against the three oath.
[ April 16, 2003, 02:13
AM: Message edited by: Sophiathegreen ]
From: El
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Fyatuk
Member Member # 133738
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posted April 16, 2003 05:15 AM
Actually
she was loosing the will to fight against the suldam period.
Basically it was meant to show that she really was becoming
damane and not a captured Aes Sedai. Even when the Aes Sedai
is broken, there is no way to make them break the 3 oaths, but
you can trick them around it (as the Aes Sedai do to
themselves in the stories). This is shown is one of the books
where no matter how much she was punished, Pura (Ryma?) could
not be made to lie about the color of a
scarf.
-------------------- Fyatuk
Loth Tai'Shin Weaver of Dreams
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted April 16, 2003 02:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray
Skwid:
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds: And in
the books, Moiraine channels fireballs at a raken, it's
obviously Shadowspawn. She doesn't test it to be sure, she
just attacks. Even though the rider will be hurt too, the
Third Oath doesn't restrain her at all.
Eh?
Cite, please.
Which is to say that it wasn't Moiriane, but several AS
in Elayne's retinue definitely did this just after the Bowl
was used.
-------------------- Dave
Rothgery Picking nits since
1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
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