Author
|
Topic: Wilder vs.
Initiate |
Cirelle
Member Member # 101387
|
posted August 15, 2002 01:53 PM
Hi
there! I'm quite a newbie to GM, and such, and I've been
reading in the Big Rule Book, and I must say that one thing
confuses me. It seems to me, that Wilders are better than
the Initiates. Is that so? Or... well, what are your
experiences? I'd love to hear what you all have got to
say!
This is a nice forum..!
In the
Light, Cirelle
-------------------- Member of the
Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries and Other
Professionally Thinking Persons.
From:
Sweden | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP:
Logged
| |
Avi_MHael
Member Member # 97140
|
posted August 15, 2002 02:17 PM
*waves to
Cirelle*
It's
Davian!
-------------------- M.Ward Davian Aereas
Telkere WebMaster, silklantern.com
From:
Canada | Registered: Jul 2002 | IP:
Logged
| |
LuciusT
Member Member # 4474
|
posted August 15, 2002 02:28 PM
I have to
start by saying, we've never had any PC Initiates in our game
and only one PC Wilder, so most of what I have to say on this
is theoretical.
However, it depends on what you mean
by "better."
Wilders get a faster spell slot
progression, more low level slots, a major overchanneling
bonus and a "free" weave every level. OTOH, Wilder Blocks can
be crippling.
Initiates get more free feats, a
Weavesight bonus, the ability to channel at will and
membership in a channeling tradition.
That last point,
and most often overlooked part, is what actually makes
Initiates "better" than wilders IMO. An Initiate can
reasonablely expect to know far more weaves than a wilder,
because she has a mentor or mentors actively teaching her. She
can also reasonablely expect to recieve assistance and support
from her tradition... being a Wise One's apprentice or an
Accepted of the Tower carries with it a weight of authority
that should not be overlooked. Of course, it also carries with
it a set of expectations and resonpsibilities that should also
not be overlooked... but those are called adventures hooks
more often than not.
So, in terms of number and strength of
weaves you can cast, Wilders do have an edge. However, in
almost every other respect Initiates have the advantage. IMO
From:
Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
| |
JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted August 15, 2002 02:51 PM
Wilders are
better than initiates, but Iniates out strip wilders if they
multiclass into their tradition's prestige class early
on.
Basicly a level 20 wilder is better than a level 20
initiate, but a level 20 wilder will have trouble against an
Initiate 10/Wildfinder 10 (they get like 3 bonus Multiweave
feats! lol "I can shield you, you, you, you AND you all at
once!")
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
California | Registered: Aug 2002 |
IP: Logged
| |
phrostphyre
Member Member # 95502
|
posted August 15, 2002 03:05 PM
Holy smelly
stuff!!
Hey Cirelle, I've just come back from Sweden,
where I met Jeanette (Ciry), AnnaMia (Chili) and Johan
(Sadram) plus one other you may not know.
Shame you
couldn't be there, it was a blast!!!!
What Lucius says
is correct, you have to balance the improved number of spells
and overchannelling bonus of a Wilder against the number of
feats an Initiate gets.
Registered:
Jul 2002 | IP: Logged
| |
Magai
Member Member # 100892
|
posted August 15, 2002 03:39 PM
Why not try
the best of both worlds. Be an Wilder off the start and then
after lvl 2 mutliclass into an Initiate. More feats, Free
talent, Free affinity, and you get the bonus of the Feat
progression with the bonuses for over channeling of a Wilder.
However, as a Male channeler the only reason I would over
channel is if I had no choice either over channel or die... I
go insane enough as it is.
-------------------- I
don't have to out Run the Trollocs, I Just have to out run
YOU!!!!
Registered:
Aug 2002 | IP: Logged
| |
Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
|
posted August 15, 2002 04:20 PM
I did the
math on these guys when the game first came out - Wilders MAY
have a slight power edge until 6th level, by 13 the wilder
gets totally smoked by an Initiate.
PS - at 6th level
the initiate has approx 4 more feats (that more than balances
the higher spellslot, which is rapidly diminishing at this
point).
The one boost is the channeling of
non-talented slots, but again this is minimized by the far
more accelerated feat progression (I don't need to channel
outside of my talents- I have them
all).
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
| |
JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted August 15, 2002 04:56 PM
Does anyone
realize that most of WoT isn't about level 20 characters? Rand
as a level 14 wilder is good enough (I know pages like Call of
the Horn have level 20+ characters). If overchanneling weren't
important, than it wouldn't be in the game. Period. All
channelers should max out concentration, weavesight, composure
(wilders anyway, if they don't want Eliminate Block), and
Invert (if you GM lets you). But mostly Concentration and
Weavesight. Concentration is for multiweaves and
overchanneling. Wilders are better at overchanneling
than Initiates.
Overchanneling boosts weaves like an
angreal, so you don't need as many higher weave
slots.
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
California | Registered: Aug 2002 |
IP: Logged
| |
Wowbangers the
Infinitely Prolonged Member Member
# 101183
|
posted August 15, 2002 05:20 PM
Amen
reverend. I like the Initiate better because of the oodles of
bonus channeling feats that the class gets. And the lack of
the Block feat is nice too, so you don't have to burn a feat
to get rid of it (or 'gasp' live with
it.
-------------------- I have gone out to look for
myself. If I should happen to return before I get back, please
tell myself to wait.
From:
The middle of nowhere....South Dakota | Registered:
Aug 2002 | IP: Logged
| |
JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted August 15, 2002 05:40 PM
That is all
Initiates get, which is fair, but how many feats does it
really take to get all the talents/affinities and multiweave
(at least once), sense residue, and tie off weave? Sure men
also need to get Mental Stability, but things like Power
Heightened Senses are useless.
Initiates have bonus
channeler feats mainly so they can access their Prestige
classes by level 4-5. (of course doing so means not getting a
second affinity until after 4th level, but they you get
Resolve and Improved Resolve that much faster, if you are an
Asha'man or Aes Sedai)
the main reason I like Wilders
over Initiates is that Initiates have d4 hit dice while
Wilders have d6. And Wilders don't have responsibilities to
any traditions. Too bad Ebou Dar was taken by the Seanchan,
that was a great Wilder Dive... (not sure they would want many
males though)
[ August 15, 2002, 05:51 PM:
Message edited by: JosephKell
]
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
California | Registered: Aug 2002 |
IP: Logged
| |
Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
|
posted August 15, 2002 05:58 PM
Actually by
the time the Kin fled Ebou Dari, they would have stayed away
from any male wilder even more so than a normal person would.
They were very much aware of the view Aes Sedai took on both
male channelers and "groups" of female channelers.
The
fact is, the Kin tried to avoid channeling when they could.
And if you had gone there looking for them, more than likely
they would have avoided you. Remember they only picked up
runaways or those the tower would not of worried
about.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
From:
Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002 |
IP: Logged
| |
Arafel is Full
of Strange Folks Member Member
# 97788
|
posted August 15, 2002 07:11 PM
I think the
largest part has to do with the campaign that your GM is
running. Just to give an example, in the lastest one I'm
playing in, I was sent out of the Tower as an Initiate on a
"secret" mission. This entailed going all the way to Tear,
getting quite a few levels without the aide of any other
channeler, and effectively slowing the progression of the
character because I had no one to learn new weaves from. The
catch to it was I had the requirements to take the Aes Sedai
prestige class, but I couldn't "join" until I was back in the
Tower (the Oath Rod).
Looking at Wilders, if the GM
forces them to meet a mentor group (Aes Sedai, Wise One, et
all) through role-playing to gain levels of Initiate, the
switch might not be possible (within the game
context).
Of course, all of this is discretionary; your
GM might let you jump ship and level as freely as you want.
But generally I feel putting role-playing constraints on
channelers is the best way to reign in their dominating combat
qualities.
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
| |
Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
|
posted August 15, 2002 11:06 PM
quote:
Does
anyone realize that most of WoT isn't about level 20
characters? Rand as a level 14 wilder is good enough (I know
pages like Call of the Horn have level 20+ characters). If
overchanneling weren't important, than it wouldn't be in the
game. Period. All channelers should max out concentration,
weavesight, composure (wilders anyway, if they don't want
Eliminate Block), and Invert (if you GM lets you). But
mostly Concentration and Weavesight. Concentration is for
multiweaves and overchanneling. Wilders are better at
overchanneling than Initiates.
Some of my reasoning here:
The characters on
Call of the Horn are designed to be used together and they are
meant to adhear to the "facts" expressed in the
books.
Rand/LTT is without a doubt the single most
powerful character to ever live in Randland, period. He sets
your curve on power. If he is left at 12th or 14th level
Wilder that means the most powerful channeler in the world can
only use a 7th level weave unaided. It implies the the
write-ups of Moir, Nyn, Elayne, etc. are grossly overblown.
Additionally, it means that the Forsaken are around
9-13th?
Oh wait, Nyn hast to be able to restore the
power? 12th level - she needs to be able to channel a minimum
of 8th level weaves to get the 12th level effect (-3 for OC,
-1 for all affinities).
So we get a conumdrum when we
want the characters to be like the books say they are.
Here are your averages for Rand overchanneling +3
levels - (25% overchannel check failure for +3 levels -
average con failure by 19 points - 20% chance of burning out).
Ouch....I would guess at the level he is he doesn't push it
all that much.
You could scale the game down in level and
it would actually be more fun but you would have to do drastic
rules revisions, especially on weaves. Most of them would have
to be dropped in level. Remember, even for some of the basic
ones like Bond Warder you have to be 9th level.
I just
found it easier to scale up the Monsters, than scale down the
entire game.
Oh yeah, Wilders are only better at
overchanneling at low levels. The Wilder has a Med Fort save
while the Initiates is a Good save - a bonus of +2 for the
wilder is quickly negated by Great Fortitude but even if it is
an advantge +2 is tiny when the Save is
45+.
Feats: 20 Initiate 15 Wilder
Skill
points: The initiate is going to get 2 or 3 more skill points
each level (on average), this is going to add up
quick.
Hit Points - this is where Wilders make some
money. Wilder 73 hp Initiate 52 hp
Anyway, the
answer is not - just leave Rand as he is and the game works
fine. He either has to go up, the game has to scale down, or
you add a little note saying "this game is called WoT but hey,
we took alot of liberties." Perhaps there is some other way
that I haven't thought of?
BTW - there is only one
character that is not a Forsaken that I have on my website
that is an Epic level character. He is the main character in
an Epic story
I do try to keep them balanced, but true to
the books.
I might be able to dig up the level by level
comparison on the wilder v. Initiate if anybody wants the
DOC?
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
| |
Freya
Member Member # 93267
|
posted August 16, 2002 07:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell: Does
anyone realize that most of WoT isn't about level 20
characters?
Also, realize that the character write-ups in the back
of the book specifically say that they are 'as of' the end of
Book 5! There have been 5 (including book 10) more books since
that happened! Do you really think Rand is still a level 14
(or whatever) character?
I don't think it's unreasonable to say he's
leveled up since then. Reaching epic levels even. (granted,
low 20s, but 20s
nonetheless.)
-------------------- felicia AKA
Freya Culadin
From:
dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002 |
IP: Logged
| |
drothgery
Member Member # 4490
|
posted August 16, 2002 08:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Freya:
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell: Does
anyone realize that most of WoT isn't about level 20
characters?
Also, realize that the character write-ups in the
back of the book specifically say that they are 'as of' the
end of Book 5!
Err, they're supposed to be as of the end of book six.
That isn't all that important for Rand -- I really don't think
he's gained more than a level or two in channeling classes
since the end of FoH -- or for characters like Lan, Thom, and
Moiriane, who don't significantly increase in power over the
novels.
But for Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve, it
matters a lot. Egwene becomes Amyrlin in LoC, learned to
Travel, and vastly expanded her abilities as a Dreamwalker.
Elayne started making ter'angreal between the end of
FoH and the start of LoC (which was the last time that a
significant amount of time passed off-screen between novels).
Nynaeve Healed Logain.
-------------------- Dave
Rothgery Picking nits since
1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
| |
Cirelle
Member Member # 101387
|
posted August 16, 2002 12:51 PM
::waves to
Avi et al:: Hi!
Thanks everybody! I do think I've got a
clearer grip of things now! =) It'll help sometime in the
future, when I work up the nerv to GM
Cir
-------------------- Member of
the Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries and
Other Professionally Thinking Persons.
From:
Sweden | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP:
Logged
| |
JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted August 16, 2002 01:12 PM
WoT isn't
D&D, Once you get into books 6-9 Rand doesn't do many new
things (until the end of 9 when he cleanses Saidin), think of
him as unchallenged, the Forsaken aren't as strong as him in
absolute power, he eventually goes from behind attacked and
winning to attacking and still winning. I mean damn, Callandor
is a power 8 Sa'Angreal! That is more than I expect any of my
characters to be able to cast without overchanneling or using
an angreal. Then he starts using the Access Key! +10! Also
Rand is Ta'veren, A.K.A. Fudge Factor NPC, Take Mat for
example, he has 2 bonus "The Dark Ones Own Luck" In the books
I would say he should have like 30 bonus feats, but in the
game they scaled it down to just 2 bonuses. That Feat is like
the Game Saver, if it is all or nothing with this overchannel,
and you mess up, you can use the feat to retry, the worst that
can happen is that you fail still, and then if you have more
than one (like Mat) you can retry the fortitude
save.
The Dark One's Own Luck is a second chance feat,
it is not super good for everything, but it is flexible enough
to be used anywhere a d20 is rolled. Attacks, Saves
(especially saves...)
(and if people haven't noticed, I
am stubborn and take very strong stances; try not to mistake
this for wanting to argue. I will state when I am just whining
)
-------------------- Instant Message me
@ JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
California | Registered: Aug 2002 |
IP: Logged
| |
Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
|
posted August 16, 2002 02:36 PM
Most of us
are stubborn
Rand does most of his channeling from book 4
or 5 without an angreal. This is the area where he does most
of his balefire tossing.
Ta'veren is broken - nice
idea & great way to immulate the books without actually
having to make up rules. Why not just say it is a freeform
game if you want to tack on 30 feats?
d20 is about
20th level spell casters being the pinnicle, it is an
intregral assumption to the system. No player, No NPC, No
Forsaken can channel more than Rand until introduced by
RJ.
Therefore Rand should be 20th level or you have to
change the scale of the entire system. Your average Aes Sedai
is 9th level (able to channel bond warder without
overchanneling), so leaving Rand as a 12th Wilder does not
give you much room to play with the other power
stats.
I would like to see you build as system that
works with Rand at 12th level? Lets see some classes/levels of
around 30 or so channeling characters. They need to scale in
power as we know they scale in the books (a great reference is
Drothgery's Power page (there is a link on Call of the Horn)).
I don't think it can be done, but I would love to be proved
wrong.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
| |
Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
|
posted August 16, 2002 02:57 PM
From
personal experience, building two of the Forsaken characters
(Aginor and Ishamael), and using the Forsaken Templates that
can be found on the Call of the Horn website.
These
character's are powerful, but not unbeatable. I made the
character of Ishamael as a 28th level, 20th Initiate/8th
Expert. He is almost as powerful as a the modified Rand,
although Rand is able to overchannel the hell out of him. With
these character's as the upper limit, it still leaves room for
players to grow. If they were upper limit of say, 15th. That
would indicate that no character in the game can cast a 9th
level weave without a circle, angreal, or overchanneling. It
also means that if my players manage to make it up to those
levels, they are as powerful as the strongest forsaken and the
Dragon Reborn. Not an option that I want to worry about in my
games. ![[Dubious]](Wizards_Com Boards Wilder vs_ Initiate_fichiers/dubious.gif)
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
From:
Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002 |
IP: Logged
| |
Merclaar
Member Member # 67223
|
posted August 19, 2002 01:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red: I
might be able to dig up the level by level comparison on the
wilder v. Initiate if anybody wants the DOC?
*here* Would like it.
[edit] How about a
comparison about the Slot-Pool-System on the wilder v.
initiate? *hope* [edit end]
cu
[
August 19, 2002, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Merclaar
]
-------------------- cu
-- Merclaar
Registered:
Feb 2002 | IP: Logged
| |
Merclaar
Member Member # 67223
|
posted August 19, 2002 01:20 AM
[ August 19, 2002, 01:23 AM: Message
edited by: Merclaar
]
-------------------- cu
-- Merclaar
Registered:
Feb 2002 | IP: Logged
| |
Merclaar
Member Member # 67223
|
posted August 19, 2002 01:22 AM
*deletet*
-------------------- cu
-- Merclaar
Registered:
Feb 2002 | IP: Logged
| |
theSaj
Member Member # 96041
|
posted August 19, 2002 10:02 AM
Well,
Initiates and Wilder's each have their
advantages...
In the campaign I am in, starting off at
level one and gaining experience insanely slow (about 4 months
to reach level 3)...a wilder would have had a bit of an
advantage over the initiate in being able to overchannel and
cast higher level weaves. However, I had all my weaves focused
into the healing arts, and had no combat ability. (Wen't 8
rounds with an NPC and only scored 2 pts of damage.) So, I
pretty much lost out on any wilder advantage I had. (Let's not
forget BLOCK cancelling my ability at many of the most needed
times...)
Now on the flip side, an initiate starts off
with two extra weaves and a channelling feat. This allows for
an extra talent, affinity, or such feats as multi-weave. This
is a clear strong benefit the Wilder does not receive until
level two. Even then it's 1 per 3 levels for Wilder. 1 per 2
levels initiate.
Furthermore, an initiate usually
learns new weaves from a mentor. In the case of our campaign,
the initiate recently learned "rend". Finally, the characters
in our campaign levelled up to Level 3. I was so happy, I
finally got a new weave...(I took fireball, giving me some
combat ability finally). However, the initiate in our group
(having just learned Rend) multi-classed into a Wilder.
Gaining an extra affinity, and an extra talent. So here I sat
having gained my "1 new weave" and looking at my fellow
player's character having gained "a weave, an affinity, and
now she has the ability to overchannel, and cast outside her
talents.
So, in truth, initiates are fairly equal to
Wilders, and the fact that they can always multi-class into
wilders at a whim makes them capable of becoming
supa-powerful.
So please...in truth, Wilders have many
disadvantages, especially, if they're male and in the early
books period.
-------------------- "To Die is to
Live No More!"
From:
New Haven, Connecticut | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
| |
Arr MiHardies
Member Member # 86473
|
posted August 19, 2002 10:53 AM
personally,
I would not allow a character to start as in initiate and go
into wilder. IMO you are a wilder first, and then the tower
picks you up. now, if you started as wilder, you could up that
level any time you wanted, even after becoming an initiate.
But starting as in initiate and moving to wilder simply doesnt
make sense. here you are... able to channel any time you want,
and suddenly you develop a block against it? un-uh. if my
players ever want wilder, they must start as it, or level into
it before leveling into
initiate.
-------------------- You might be a
king... or a little street sweeper... but sooner or
later... you dance with the
reaper... ----------------------------- professional D20
Character Sheets, NPC Sheets, and DM screens http://amhsheets.notcrazy.com/
From:
Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
| |
theSaj
Member Member # 96041
|
posted August 19, 2002 12:37 PM
Well, the
reasoning the GM gave was the fact that the entire last chunk
of the campaign the initiate in our group was travelling with
no mentor and did not learn any weaves. (Mind you, even though
I was a Wilder we only had one level up from Level 1 to Level
2 during the whole 3-4 months of campaign.)
So he
decided he'd multi-class into Wilder so his character could
learn weaves and gain an extra affinity and talent. This was a
bummer for me as I am a male channeler and this put me into a
weaker position. The fact that all of my character's abilities
were healing weaves (of which most all are useless except
heal). On top of this the initiate character learned "shield"
and "rend" from a Red Ajah.
Me, I levelled up and got
to take one weave, yeah, I snagged Fireball. Cause I had NO
combat ability. (Worse, in a gaming situation with no control
in the matter I had my thumb cut off by a darkfriend..., so
the fact that I have next to no combat ability with the
additional loss of thumb, so I can't even use bows, two-handed
swords, etc. Well, let's just say I sucked at combat. Went 8
rounds and only did two points of damage against a single
soldier. I missed the first 7 hits. The GM decided to have the
enemy soldier trip and fall cracking his head open fearing the
additional 50 rounds it would take for me to kill him at that
rate... *LOL*
The GM's made up for it a bit finally, by
giving me a fairly powerful ter'angreal that also seems (or at
least appears to) reduce the taint.
But it was very
frustrating and I had protested the choice of allowing the
Initiate to multi-class to wilder.
Although the
explanation for the block, is the block appears as a
safe-guard during the exploration of weaves and
overchannelling.
*shrug*
-------------------- "To
Die is to Live No More!"
From:
New Haven, Connecticut | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
| | |