Author
|
Topic: Munchkin and
Min/Maxing |
Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
|
posted April 25, 2003 08:23 PM
It every
hard to balance all game equelly. How many remember France
1940 from Avalon Hill the Germany player have just than
overwheln advange based on real life event. To see who was
the actural better player they came up with than special
system.
In real life min/maxing take place like if I
want to have than good football team I look for different
trait in each player to furfill than position on the team.
Do we say to Football team that you cannot min/max at
all.
It seem everyone call than wilder/initiate combo
than munchkin. Let look at it it the WoT is than real world. I
than the Amyrlin of the White tower the number of sister are
declineing as Aes Sedia rarely get marry or have childern even
out of wedlock. The average sister channeler abilitity is
getting weaker. There are some strong wilder who want to
become Initiate to learn how to channel better. Would it be
wise to turn then down or acpect then into the tower as
Initiate it you be insult then to ask then to be novices it
they know how to channel already. What does the tower get
first they get new blood, channeler who on average are
stronger in the power than the average sister.
What
about the Initiate/wilder combo. Let say there are some
Initiate who arenot tower material and never will be what to
do as Amyrlin. First quieting then for no good reason will
be than waste as may-be they can be taken back into the tower.
Why not set then free to be on their own as wilder an may-be
their will learn some wisdom by being wilder. So is it being
munchkin or being real to the Wheel of Time.
[
April 25, 2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Sophiathegreen
]
From: El
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 25, 2003 09:26 PM
The
argument isn't against players who multiclass wilder/initiate
for story reasons, its against players who do it solely for
the game advantages.
-------------------- "Death
comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark
One, and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
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posted April 25, 2003 09:42 PM
The combo
is not even about min-maxing, it is 100% abusive. No one in
their right mind would not do it if given the opprotunity, if
the decision was based on power. If you take Channelers of
equal level (lets say 7th)a 7th level wilder has some perks,
but the 7th level channelr has some perks that balance the two
out. The Wilder/Init combo smokes both of them. It gets all
the perks - none of the penalties, and some extra perks to
boot.
I have yet to see a more badly built rule in
WotC D&D.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 25, 2003 10:26 PM
It does
seem that they didn't consider the possibility doesn't it? Of
course, you could just rule that a wilder can't multiclass as
initiate even if trained, because that time as a wilder
changed her way of channeling, and vise-versa. There should
probably be a better solution
though...
-------------------- "Death comes sooner
or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Steve Russell
Member Member # 130579
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posted April 25, 2003 11:06 PM
One I don't
allow wilder/initiate cross over because of something Cadsuane
and sorliea say about learning a second way of weaving is
never as good as the first.
If I did there are other
issues to deal with besides powergaming which I have no
problem with someone doing there are plenty of characters in
WoT that want nothing but power.
Yet remember something
with MIN/MAX only works if you are never called upon to have
to deal with a MIN. Usually you rely on another character to
deal with it. This is teamwork.
All a GM really has to
do though is attack your MIN such as Bab, str checks and
skills, and any number of skills that are not class
skils.
Also min/max characters are designed for combat,
Action in a story does not have to be combat. Yet
there are also role-playing, problem solving, and plots to be
dealt with that a Min/Max character will fall flat on his face
for.
Also to most Aes Sedi a wilder is still a
wilder.
-------------------- I have a reading lesson
with the Lady Riselle. She lets me rest my head on her bosom
while she reads to me. -Olver
Please visit and
review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace
Book.
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 26, 2003 04:00 AM
You bring
up very good points. You couldnot outright ban the Wilder
changeing to initiate just because they are powerful. In the
books written by RJ the channeler written as being powerful.
What bout Woodsman/armsman combo of the armman/blademaster
combo. It remind me when the psion ruled came out for 2sd
edition AD&D so many DM where up in armed saying it was
too powerful and unbalanceing than they werenot going to use
then. I read the book than found nothing really
unbalanceing of too powerful. I really think the hight
level wizard spells where more powerful and unbalance but that
my personal opoin. One way is to allow the wilder not to take
many more level as wilder when she become than initate untril
she become than Aes Sedai and when than initate change to
wilder she cannot take anymore level in initate untril she
become Aes Sedai.
From: El
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Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
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posted April 26, 2003 01:44 PM
My solution
is to remove the SECOND bonus Talent and Affinity. This means
they will always be behind in feats and they won't quite have
the Juice that a straight Wilder has - it is still a fairly
adventagious combo - just not crazy kinda
broken.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 26, 2003 06:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red: My
solution is to remove the SECOND bonus Talent and Affinity.
This means they will always be behind in feats and they
won't quite have the Juice that a straight Wilder has - it
is still a fairly adventagious combo - just not crazy kinda
broken.
In the Wheel of Time the channeler are meant to be more
powerful than any other classes. I once play than game where
spellcaster where more powerful than any other class. To
balance every class so none are powerful is not realise. There
was abook writtern where a great baketball player have to wear
weight on his arms and legs to take away his advange over
other baketball player. Great singer have to have their voice
ruin somehow so people who wouldnot sing at all should feel
not threaten by people who could sing. It was than science
fiction book forgot the tittle.
From: El
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 26, 2003 06:32 PM
The problem
isn't wit channelers being too powerful, as they are already
the strongest class without multiclassing. The problem is with
multiclassing channelers being stronger than other channelers,
which doesn't really have basis in the
books.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Steve Russell
Member Member # 130579
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posted April 26, 2003 06:48 PM
actually it
does have a basis as a player pointed out to me that Rand is
thinks he is powerfull but he comments that once he becomes a
student of Asmodean he REALLy starts to go on his
own.
-------------------- I have a reading lesson
with the Lady Riselle. She lets me rest my head on her bosom
while she reads to me. -Olver
Please visit and
review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace
Book.
From:
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 26, 2003 07:18 PM
I
personally don't see that as coming from multiclassing: I see
it as coming from a strong channeler getting training. It
would probably be the same if he had started as an
initiate.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner
or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
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posted April 27, 2003 12:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Sophiathegreen: In the Wheel
of Time the channeler are meant to be more powerful than any
other classes.
Channelers are more powerful. They absolutely own other
characters in the game. That is not what we are talking
about.
Wilder + Initiate is by far the most abusive
combination in the game. It far outstrips the power of either
Wilder or Initiate by themselves. We could use a little
example - let us use an Armsman 7 or a Woodsman 7: which is
more powerful?
Depends doesn't it?
How about a
Woodsman3/Armsman4? It still depends. Not so with a
Wilder/Initiate multiclass. That class will ALWAYS be more
powerful than either of the two lone classes could be. Like I
said, I allow it, I just take away TWO free feats. I still
leave getting bonus spells from 3 stats, I still leave
overchanneling, and the character still gets bonus known
weaves for being part of a tradition, I still allow weavesight
bonuses, I even allow them to keep the superior weaves per day
chart of the Initiate, I can't really take away the boost to
their Saving throws.
The combination still murders
either class by itself - but this is at least a little more
fair to players who wanted to be part of a
tradition.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 27, 2003 03:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by skyman: The problem
isn't wit channelers being too powerful, as they are already
the strongest class without multiclassing. The problem is
with multiclassing channelers being stronger than other
channelers, which doesn't really have basis in the
books.
As I only started reading the Book by RJ I didnot know
that. I once have than rule I use in D&D to stop too
much Munchkin I donnot mind than little as it show than player
realer interested in the game, the rule went if you develped
your basic classes in units of 5 at a time you arenot hit with
the penaly of uneven leval. The only except I allow is than
person who is total new to roleplaying mightnot know what
class he or she want to play at the beginning so I allow then
to change classes at the begging it they pick than class they
real donot like to play.
From: El
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Ma'caldazar
Member Member # 131598
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posted April 27, 2003 09:44 AM
in the
books they state that wilders once they got proper training is
among the most powerfull chaneler it is because they have the
spark though so the extra talent and afinity may be abusive
other vise you cold argue for that they shold be mor powerfull
than the strait initiate or wilder one have a weaker ability
and one laks proper training
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 27, 2003 03:59 PM
I would
agree that wilders tend to make stronger Aes Sedai because
they have the spark. Neither Egwene or Elayne were wilders and
there are only a couple of stronger channelers. I'd bet
Nynaeve would be just as strong if she'd started as an
initiate.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner
or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted April 27, 2003 05:21 PM
I'm gonna
hafta disagree with you here Skyman, both Egwene and Elayne
are Wilders (although not in the traditional sense that
Nyneave is). Both of them would have channeled whether they
were taught or not. Nyneave is powerful, because she was born
that way (according to the books), just as the two E's were. I
don't see how training Nyneave would have made her weaker (she
wouldn't of had the block, but not weaker).
According
to the BBoBA: A female channeler can feel the inborn ability
to channel and relative strength of another woman who could
channel within five or ten feet. To find those who could not
yet channel, but who had the ability to learn, it was
necessary to establish a resonance. The female Aes Sedai drew
lightly on the One Power to channel a small weave, it is then
up to the candidate to feel for the Power. If she has any
ability to learn, she would feel the resonance of the Aes
Sedai’s flow, at that point the tester was also able to feel
the candidate and immediately know her
potential.
Wilders are usually stronger than those that
can be taught, but not always (see Sharina, of the Salidar
Novices). Just as Initiates are better trained. When both are
toghether in the same package, well theres the rub isn't
it?
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 27, 2003 06:20 PM
quote:
I'm
gonna hafta disagree with you here Skyman, both Egwene and
Elayne are Wilders (although not in the traditional sense
that Nyneave is). Both of them would have channeled whether
they were taught or not.
Being a wilder has nothing to do with wether you have
the spark; it is simply that you learned without formal
training.
quote:
I don't
see how training Nyneave would have made her weaker (she
wouldn't of had the block, but not weaker).
I agree. I think that there is a limit of potential for
each channeler, and that limit can be achieved through
training. Not being trained at first wouldn't make you
stronger, except that you might gain strength quicker due to
not having limits set on you're training. The maximum
potential is still the same.
In my opinion the reason
wilders tend to be stronger is because they have the spark,
while many initiates don't. Initiates like Elayne and Egwene
both had the spark, but wouldn't have been stronger if they
had been wilders.
-------------------- "Death comes
sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One,
and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Ma'caldazar
Member Member # 131598
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posted April 28, 2003 12:59 AM
quote:
quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm
gonna hafta disagree with you here Skyman, both Egwene and
Elayne are Wilders (although not in the traditional sense
that Nyneave is). Both of them would have channeled whether
they were taught or not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Being
a wilder has nothing to do with wether you have the spark;
it is simply that you learned without formal
training.
But you cant learn whitout formal training whitout the
spark
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
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posted April 28, 2003 05:48 AM
Can you be
born with the spark and be an Initiate? Yes.
Can you be
born with the spark and be a Wilder? Yes.
Can you be
born without the spark and be an Initiate? Yes.
Can you
be born without the spark and be a Wilder? No.
In other
words. To be a Wilder you must be born with the spark, but it
does not preclude you becoming an
Initiate.
-------------------- A man who will not
die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying
The
Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last
embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral
Ceremony
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 28, 2003 03:26 PM
Exactly.
Elayne and Egwene both had the spark and neither were wilders,
both were initiates.
-------------------- "Death
comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark
One, and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted April 28, 2003 07:27 PM
A character
level 5 Wilder/Initiate qualifies no matter what for their
traditions prestige class for their 6th level. Even if it is
Wilder 4/Initiate 1. For a Wilder to make it to their prestige
class they need 6 character levels first for the feats, unless
they take a level of Initiate.
Of course a
Wilder/Initiate at level 20 is more powerful than a clvl 20
wilder or a little stronger than a clvl 20 initiate but not
much. It is easy to overchannel successfully everytime with
Skill Emphasis (Concentration) and maxxed out Concentration.
The only thing a Wilder/Initiate has over either is a third
channeling attribute (so they get like a bonus 1st and 2nd
level weave slot per day... big whoop, but that assumes they
have a 14 in the third attribute)
And then there is the
age old fact about Player Characters: The PC's are above
average, they have abilities above and beyond the average
person of their niche. Just like stacking skills, attributes,
feats, and class abilities.
The combination is only
messed up if the Wilder goes Initiate and still uses Wisdom to
determine Highest Weave slots usable. Although I do think it
is weird for an Initiate to go into Wilder, that is like a
Fighter becoming a Barbarian while he is away from his
master...
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 28, 2003 07:33 PM
In my game
I don't allow going initiate to wilder (unless there's a very
good explanation). Just doesn't make sense. Once you've
learned the initiate way of channeling you can't change
that.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted April 28, 2003 08:50 PM
The only
reason I can see for banning Wilder/Initiates is because a
person doesn't like the idea of starting as an Initiate and
being denied a bonus they half. Which doesn't make sense at
all. If everyone in a game makes their characters by the same
rules, they can all go the same route for their character. But
just because a person chooses not to do that, doesn't mean
they have the right to deny others that choice.
It is
possible to run a campaign of 4 male channelers each with the
same stats and core skills (Concentration, Composure,
Weavesight), and still have totally original characters. It is
about Background, and feats chosen. Heck the particular sword
chosen is an example of the character. A power gamer might
choose to take Exotic Weapon Prof (Warder's sword) figuring he
has to spent a feat on a prof anyway, might as well be a
bigger damage die. Well Warder's swords aren't common place
among elite professionals, let alone other guys. But a noble
turned channeler could use a rapier (they already have prof in
it, or if they have the Background feat Wealth, they could
spend a feat on Rapier as a way to support the background
story). An Armsman/male Channeler would probably wear a
longsword (and maybe carry a halbard also). A Seachen
Channeler would use a Scimitar.
I made a character once
that took Warder Sword proficiency, but always used it in two
hands, but he used the Fiery Sword weave of the Warder's Sword
in one hand (to diffenciate between his comfort with the sword
and Saidin). This male channeler was anything but a swordsman,
he had NO feats for combat (aside from Exotic Weapon Prof
Warder Sword).
Channelers get 4 + int modifier skill
points a level, and only 2 skills on thier list are must haves
(Concentration and Weavesight; composure is really only
necessary for Wilders without Eliminate Block that need to
make all those checks). And then there is the Background skill
(get one at level + 3 ranks). So there are at least 3 skill
points per level to flush out a character's story.
The
people making the biggest wail about how unbalanced it is are
just the ones that want to be the only ones to do
it.
Here is a simple fix: Require Wilder/Initiates
to have an Int AND Wis of Weave Level + 10 to channel that
weave. Or don't allow them to take Wilder X/Initiate 1 to
use the better table. Just don't forget: Wheel of Time isn't
an Epic Setting. If 14 adventures with a character isn't
enough (enough to get to level 15) to sate you, make a new
character that is different.
The real problem is a lack
of adventures to run. If there were more adventures you would
see fewer complaints about abuse this, abuse that... no, that
isn't for sure... there are a lot of people that just like to
rant and complain ( ).
And you know player made stuff is a lot
more abusable than the Wizards stuff. My Chin'saron class is
crap. It is balanced and looks great, but it is TOO focused,
it is like the Wheel of Time version of D&D's Monk! It is
a class for ONE type of character, which is bad. Which is why
I stopped making classes and prestige classes. Now I just
figure out combinations that do something good (like Cavalier
6/Foe Hunter 4 for a Dragonrider, ride one, kill the rest, or
a build to make "x" character). Right now most Prestige
Classes are more of Prestige Builds.
And Eosin, a lot
of us know that Channelers dominate Wheel of Time after level
4-5 with ease.
-------------------- Instant Message
me @ JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
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posted April 28, 2003 09:14 PM
I don't
have a problem with game balance issues. I tend to play
warrior or noble types in WoT, and even though they are weaker
than channelers they are fun to play. I think sometimes people
get too stressed about game balance. Not that it isn't
important, but rping is why its called a role playing game.
(that wasn't directed at anyone specific, just random thoughts
relating to the post)
-------------------- "Death
comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark
One, and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted April 28, 2003 09:15 PM
My real
point is that it isn't the game that is causing complaints, it
is the idleness.
-------------------- Instant
Message me @ JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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