Author
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Topic: Wilder or
Initiate |
Ennaom
Member Member # 90320
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posted December 11, 2002 10:55 AM
I have a
question about those two clases... I have read the rules
quickly, and what is the drawback to play a wilder over an
Initiate... Because Wilder has more weave, can cast highter
weave when they don't have the talent (comparing to
Initiate)
Well in the Wot, it also seems that wilder
need one condition in order to channel but they can overcome
it...
I need help on this..
Ennaom, a DM to
be
-------------------- Zha'linth zhah natha belbol
mzild farjali taga
z'reninth! ----------------------------------------------- Memory
is more important then believed!
From:
Paris | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP:
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Draicen
Member Member # 117020
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posted December 11, 2002 11:44 AM
Wilder has
a MUCH slower feat progression for the bonus channeling
feats...
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Dec 2002 | IP: Logged
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
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posted December 11, 2002 11:47 AM
The block
is the main drawback to the wilder, especially for females. A
male wilder can take the eliminate block feat at 1st lvl, but
for either one, it's an extra feat that they have to take
instead of more usefull
feats.
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Heron_Marked_Blade Member Member
# 110617
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posted December 11, 2002 12:06 PM
That's a
question I've heard others raise before this. Here's my take
on it:
Initiates gain more bonus channeling feats, a
bonus to Weavesight, and an even weave-gain progression (40
total at lvl 20). This represents their "trained" ability.
Wilders gain higher level weaves sooner, can cast 0-2
level weaves no matter which Talent, and gain a bonus to
Overchanneling. This represents their raw power (can channel
44 total weaves at lvl 20). At higher levels, a Wilder cannot
channel as many higher level weaves as an Initiate can, and
Wilders must overcome an emotional Block; this balances the
class.
The major drawback to playing a Wilder is the
Block. The ONLY time a Wilder can channel is when he/she is in
a specific state of mind, at least until the Block is
broken. Not only do Wilders have to deal with Concentration
checks to stay connected to the OP, they have to stay in a
frame of mind too, which is infinitely more difficult.
Remember that Nynaeve didn't get her Block removed until she
was at least level 15.
In regard to the Block, I've
toyed with the idea of picking the block for the PC and not
letting him/her know what the block is (at least not at
first). As I understand it, not all Wilders know what
state they need to be in to channel, at least not in the
beginning. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Obviously, over time the Wilder will get an idea and may be
able to consciously put him-/herself into the necessary state
of mind. Has anyone actually done this before (and lived, that
is -- I can imagine the player becoming irate because
he keeps getting whipped up on because he can't figure it
out...)?
Many people think that the best channeler
character is a cross-classed Wilder/Initiate. They gain the
bonuses from Wilder, and gain the Weavesight bonus and extra
channeling feats from Initiate. They DO have to use the
Initiate weave-per-day table, but they also gain bonus weaves
from both Intelligence and Wisdom, not just Wisdom. This seems
to more accurately reflect channelers like Cadsuane who were
wilders but who broke their blocks and became Aes
Sedai.
-------------------- "Suravye ninto manshima
taishite."
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LuciusT
Member Member # 4474
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posted December 11, 2002 12:17 PM
The
advantages of being an Initiate over a Wilder are rather
poorly explained, partly (IMO) because they are very setting
dependant.
First and foremost, an Initiate will
actually learn more weaves than a Wilder and will learn them
more quickly. This is because the Initiate has a mentor, who
will activley teach her weaves, while a Wilder has only those
weaves they get auomatically and any weaves they might pick
along the way.
Second, the Initiate has a mentor and
is a part of a tradition. At first, this may seem like a
limitation rather than an advantage but in fact it is not.
Having a mentor and being part of a tradition gives an
Initiate access to all sorts of advice, help and support that
a Wilder simply doesn't have. Even if a mentor does not join
the Initiate on adventures, they are still a valuable source
of information at the very least. ("Gee, Zeranda Sedai, do you
happen to know anything about Lord Bryn's ruined estate."
"Well, child, let me think. <checks Knowledge: History
+15> Yes, I seem to recall...")
Ultimately, the
balance between Initiate and Wilder is struck in the setting
not the rules. An Initiate has the support and protection of
her tradition. A Wilder is alone in a world that is fearful
and frequently hostile toward her because of her abilities.
Indeed, a Wilder may well find herself at odds with
the Initiate traditions. The Aes Sedai will actively seek,
find and harshly punish any woman who "pretends to be Aes
Sedai" or who "acts in a manner to disgrase the Aes Sedai."
This means any Wilder who is too open with her abilities is
likely to get a visit from a much higher level Initiate intent
on teaching her a lesson in humility... and is "she" is
actually "he" ... well, you'd best write up a new character
'cause all those levels in Wilder and all those channeling
feats mean squat now that you've been gentled.
From:
Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001
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Dayana Sedai
Member Member # 115395
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posted December 11, 2002 12:57 PM
Okay, time
and again in the books it stats that Wilders often become the
most powerful Aes Sedai, I think this is where the d20 setting
shines here.
#1, wilders start out awesome, I like the
idea that they do not know what their block is at first (but
by level 2 they should have a good idea), also DON'T
underestimate the FULL ROUND it takes to embrace the source
for BOTH the initiate and wilder, this balances with fighting
classes.
#2, initiates can learn weaves easier at
first, they start out with MORE over all but are limited to
their studied talent(s). they have a slow progression, perhaps
because their mentors know the benifits of starting slowly and
working their way up. Initiates are top heavey, the benifits
come late where wilders eventually progress very
slowly.
#3 according to the PrC's a wilder is fully
capible of becoming the PrC if they don't want to get levels
in initiate. The balance is, the Initiate will have more
higher level weaves, the wilder will be able to make ANY
overchannel rolls for the lower slots when they are out of the
rest.
#4 multiclassing makes them unstoppable, which is
SWEET. but they are still limited by their int stat to see if
they can cast the weave, so a wilder with an 18 wisdom and a
12 int who multiclasses will no longer be able to cast over
level 2 . . . thus they may not choose to. (making sense
because they learn by figuring out rather than
study)
just my thoughts!
Dayana Adrinna Sedai Aes Sedai of the
Green Ajah Countess of the House of Adrinna Anatevka
Fiel Gleegirl extrodinare Nympho . . . the "o" is
silent
-------------------- The house of Adrinna
will rise to the glory of Cairhien and bring light to the
world. It is so sworn on the sun throne.
From:
Oregon | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP:
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted December 11, 2002 02:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dayana Sedai: Okay,
time and again in the books it stats that Wilders often
become the most powerful Aes Sedai, I think this is where
the d20 setting shines here.
Err. No it doesn't. Apologies to anyone who's read a
rather strongly related rant of mine before (regarding people
with the spark, who aren't necessarily wilders; Jahar Narishma
and Elayne Trakand were born with the spark, but learned to
channel almost entirely within the context of a
tradition).
Verin says once that some of the most
powerful Aes Sedai have been wilders. But of the most powerful
Aes Sedai before the main timeline of the novels (we know
nothing about Cadsuane, so she can't be used as a datapoint),
we know that Siuan, Elaida, and Moiraine were not
wilders, and it seems unlikely that Lelaine or Romanda were.
Heck, the only known former wilders who are now Aes Sedai are
Tarna Fair (of no particular note), Theodrin Debai (on the
strong side, about on a level with Sheriam), and Nynaeve. And
that's just not enough data points to draw any conclusions
from.
-------------------- Dave Rothgery Picking
nits since 1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Dayana Sedai
Member Member # 115395
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posted December 11, 2002 02:28 PM
Moraine was
a wilder luv, she talks about it in the very first book when
she uses her amulet and talks aobut "tricks" that wilders
learn before they come to the tower.
There are a few
examples to wilders who arn't more powerful than Aes Sedai
(like the wind finders who don't have any wilder women). Verin
summates that the reason the spark is decreasing is because
Aes Sedai coddle the ability out of society by gentling men
who can channel. Suian likely would have been a wilder, IF
tear didn't ship off any woman who showed signs of channeling.
The same with the borderlanders. And Elayne grew up with an
Aes Sedai to test her, so even though she had the inborn spark
(like a wilder) she was never given the opportunity to learn
on her own.
There are two types of channelers, those
with the inborn spark (like damane in seanchan) and those who
can learn it (like sul'dam . . . as Elayne, Egwene and Nyneave
discover). Those with the inborn spark would learn regardless
of training but they may die (1 out of 4 men or 1 out of 10
women do die from learning on their own). Aes Sedai cannot go
out testing women left and right. This is evidenced by the
Seanchan finding so many Damane, not all of whom are Aes
Sedai, Kin or Windfinders.
-------------------- The
house of Adrinna will rise to the glory of Cairhien and bring
light to the world. It is so sworn on the sun
throne.
From:
Oregon | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP:
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted December 11, 2002 03:25 PM
The
initiate/wilder break is supposed to be based on training, not
being born with the spark (and there's no real evidence that
those with the spark are any stronger on average; we don't
know anything about the sparker/non-sparker status of most of
the most powerful chanellers -- a small sample to begin with
-- and of those we do know anything about, there are men and
women of great power from both groups).
Moiraine had
the spark, but she was certainly brought to the tower soon
after she channeled the first time, and quite likely had an
Aes Sedai on hand to guide her before she went to the Tower.
She was a niece of the King of Cairhein. And outside of Tear
and Amadacia, royalty frequently encounter Aes
Sedai.
[ December 11, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message
edited by: drothgery
]
-------------------- Dave
Rothgery Picking nits since
1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
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posted December 11, 2002 11:46 PM
quote:
#4
multiclassing makes them unstoppable, which is SWEET. but
they are still limited by their int stat to see if they can
cast the weave, so a wilder with an 18 wisdom and a 12 int
who multiclasses will no longer be able to cast over level 2
. . . thus they may not choose to. (making sense because
they learn by figuring out rather than study)
To quote Dave - Err no. When multiclassing you ALWAYS
get the most adventagious combo. If you are a Wilder/Initiate
you can use your INT or WIS whichever is better. For
determining bonus weaves you count ALL THREE
abilities.
Onto the
Wilder---Sparker---Nonsparker.
The three most powerful
female channelers are all strait initiates - Lanfear, Alivia,
& Sharina (a known non-sparker).
The advantages and
the original question - double or close to it the number of
feats. With an equal stat distribution buckets more Skill
Points.
The overchanneling bonus is minimized bt
Wilders getting Poor FORT save while Initiates get Good FORT
saves.
It really is a close race - if I could only
choose one class and I knew the game was going to last into
the teen levels - it would always be Initiate. If it was a one
shot kinda deal I would probably pick
wilder.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted December 12, 2002 06:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by
Eosin_the_Red: [QUOTE]The three most powerful
female channelers are all strait initiates - Lanfear,
Alivia, & Sharina (a known non-sparker).
Just to be nitpicky, Sharina is potentially
among the most powerful female channelers, but she's almost
certainly a long way from being so right now. As of
Winter's Heart, she's only been channeling for about a
month, and that's just not enough time for a woman to get
anywhere near her full
strength.
-------------------- Dave
Rothgery Picking nits since
1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
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