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Author Topic: Diffrent Class idea for Black tower Soldier as opsose to White tower initiate
Jendar al' Mandarb
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posted February 08, 2003 10:59 AM      Profile for Jendar al' Mandarb   Email Jendar al' Mandarb    Edit/Delete Post
Alright guys your all probably going to stoe more for this idea but hear me out first. My idea is to make a character class "Soldier" witch is the male eqvivelient of an initiante. only for a soldier every level you get one warrior type feat and one channeling feat my resoning behind this is the diffence in training at the bloack tower to the white. At the black tower they are learning to fight and channel with a far greater intensity level than the white tower. it has been said the white tower codeles its girls.

Also i a side note i would say for soldiers and the aiel warrior class that im not even going to atempt to spell cuz um lazy get some kinda bonus to unarmed fighting as they both have training in that although the aiel sshould have a greater bonus. im saying somthing like the monks in Dnd 3ed.
Anyway someone give me some feedback perfect my idea this is just a rough sketch id really love some imput E-mail me at jadeAngreal@aol. com or catch me on AIM @ bluegoatman15

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Grant Anderson
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posted February 08, 2003 12:48 PM      Profile for Grant Anderson   Email Grant Anderson    Edit/Delete Post
So what you're suggesting is a class like the Initiate, but one that gets an Armsman bonus feat at every level and a channeling bonus feat at every level as well. Oh, and it should have bonuses to unarmed combat, as well.

How would this be balanced against the other classes? 1d2 hp/level? Gains 1 madness point/day, even without channeling?

I don't think you'd be able to make this work, without ramping up the power of all the other classes to comparable levels.

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Fahkrin
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posted February 08, 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for Fahkrin   Email Fahkrin    Edit/Delete Post
My $0.02...

The intesity of training in the Black Tower only refers to the RATE at which levels are gained...a Dedicated might only take 3 months to make Soldier (1st level), whereas an Aes Sedai novice takes ~10 years to make Accepted (1st level). However, almost every White Tower initiate survives those 10 years, while the Asha'man initiates have a good (bad?) chance of getting killed/severed.

Gaining feats every level? For a 20-level class? Ouch...

I think that merely altering the skill list for Black Tower initiates away from the academic bent demonstrated by the non-Seanchan initiate traditions is a healthy start, and probably sufficient.

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aleshandre
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posted February 08, 2003 02:13 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
The 1 madness point per level would be a series appropriate rule. After all how many had to be put down for madness prior to the cleansing. By the way, in training, there is no choice, you MUST channel to learn to channel and the Asha'man are pushed HARD to give them the training that they need by Tarmon Gaidon. Thus it would make sense that they are regularly overchanneling while in training. Adding a saving throw for this class at each level would be a good idea against the madness (DC=madness rating +10, failure indicates falling to madness). This would simulate the risk inherent in becoming an Asha'man. Naturally, this still lets the PC gain a lot of power fast, but as it has been said before, if you had a fair number of combat weaves, why draw your sword unless you're shielded? Even at Dumais wells, and against the Seanchan, the Asha'man never drew their swords once. [Wink]

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JosephKell
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posted February 08, 2003 03:30 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
General Rule for class modification is this: For each ability to give, one has to go. Kind of like a backpack, you can only put so much in before it is full.

Start with the original Initiate Class: Some of the skills are obvious mismatchs. With skills though, I recommend first finding the skills that make no sense and grouping them by associated Attribute (because Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble are very useful, put those aside for now, I know these skills aren't on the list).
-The Most obvious bad skills are Decipher Script, and maybe Diplomacy and Sense Motive. The men aren't dealing with any manuscripts so Decipher Script could be thrown out. Diplomacy and Sense Motive are two others that might now make sense but they also do.

So now you have a Intellegence skill, a Charisma skill and a Wisdom skill to get rid of. And probably a variety of Knowledge skills.. but Knowledge skills could represent the man's background before coming to the Black Tower (commoners are counted as 0 level NPC's, when they take another class, that becomes their new level 1, so you could start a game with all commoner "1"'s and have them just travel to where they gain their first real level, you lose your HP and have spent 2+ int Mod in skill points already when you level out of your commoner level basicly. Just take skills in what you expect to level into, you only get 2+int anyway, so whatever you take will have that or more points.)

Three skills to deal with. Other skills are often seen more useful for a "kick down the door" character (or in this case "blow away the door"). An easy way to deal with this is to give Black Tower Initiates a +1 miscellaneous bonus to Intimidate for each of those 3 skills the player wants to make into crossclass (except for Decipher script, that would become a class-exclusive skill that the Black Tower Initiate doesn't have access to) of (by neglecting Diplomacy they become from rough and fear inspiring).

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Jendar al' Mandarb
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posted February 09, 2003 08:03 AM      Profile for Jendar al' Mandarb   Email Jendar al' Mandarb    Edit/Delete Post
Hey Guys,
What about the sencond part of my question about unmarmed aiel damage? does anybody else think they should do more damage than an average wetlander? give me some input on that aswell. oh and please forgive my spelling mistakes im rather lazy on the boards [Smile]
Now going back to the main topic perhaps a give them feats the same as initates do but instead of having it being a channeling feat or an armsman feat have it be whatever kind the player choices so that you could properly demonstrate the diverse learning. Plus i like the idea of a madddness check at every level although it would suck to loose your character it does seem acurate and would be a good balanceing tool. this is all my opion of course feel free to shot it down or change it with good argument!! I enjoyed reading all the previous responces [Smile]

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Lord Schpungus
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posted February 09, 2003 09:11 AM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
I like the madness the way it is: gain d6 every level and 1 when you overchannel.

As for the unarmed Aiel damage, how about a background feat for the Aiel that lets them do d6 lethal unarmed without provoking AoO. No monk damage die progression, but it's better than any character can currently get in WoT d20. There was a feat like that in the netbook, if I recall.

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JosephKell
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posted February 09, 2003 02:40 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
I personally don't see the need for any special Aiel Unarmed feat. Especially for 1 that allows them (or anyone else) to take it and gain the effects of Improved Unarmed Strike feat and doing 1d6 instead of normal 1d3 for the SAME size. Why use a spear if you can the same damage unarmed? Touching in combat is risky because most Aiel don't have Improved Unarmed Strike and when they do touch their opponent in combat it provokes an AoO (hence the reason to honor Je'toh). And why would initiates gain something most warriors don't have?

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Lord Schpungus
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posted February 09, 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
Well, in the books it mentions quite specifically in multiple instances that Aiel are very deadly even unarmed. So there's your reason. Plus, it makes an Aiel more deadly, which is what they're supposed to be, for accuracy to the novels.

As to your +1 to Intimidate for each class skill they give up, why in god's name would they give up decipher script or diplomacy for a +1 bonus to one skill? (besides in the interest of game accuracy, that is.) Most players won't want to screw themselves over majorly in the interest of book accuracy.

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JosephKell
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posted February 09, 2003 06:29 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
First, I never said I would give up those skills, I like the idea of being able to talk myself out of trouble! And Bluff has some many uses [inside joke].

About Aiel: Improved Unarmed Strike as a background feat could take care of the Aiel's unarmed combat abilities without changing the game. Medium creatures to 1d3 unarmed (sub-dual) damage. One feat (without even Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite) that gives a medium sized creature 1d6 damage (which is the same as the Aiel spear!) makes no sense. Even Large creatures do only 1d4 damage unarmed.

An unarmed strike for a creature is considered a weapon 2 sizes smaller, for Mediums that means their hands/feet/claws/teeth are considered Tiny. Usually the damage is 1 die less than a normal simple weapon of the same size. A dagger is Tiny and does 1d4, 1d3 is 1 less. A Club is small (Large is 2 above) and does 1d6 damage, 1d4 is 1 less than d6.

[ February 09, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

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Lord Schpungus
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posted February 09, 2003 07:03 PM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
IUS doesn't get rid of the AoO, and it incurs a -4 penalty to attack for lethal damage. Aiel are lethal unarmed-why not gie them 1d6 fist damage? It's not unbalancing unless you're putting a portly midlander up against an aiel in a fistfight. Personally I think that fight shouldn't be balanced. The Aiel should beat him to a bloody pulp in less than 5 rounds.

But you don't have to use that feat if you don't want to.

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JosephKell
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posted February 09, 2003 07:14 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Schpungus:
IUS doesn't get rid of the AoO, and it incurs a -4 penalty to attack for lethal damage. Aiel are lethal unarmed-why not gie them 1d6 fist damage?

First part is wrong. IUS makes it so you don't recieve AoO's when you punch/kick, but if someone without IUS punches/kicks at you you get to AoO them.

quote:
Improved Unarmed Strike
You are skilled at fighting unarmed.
-Benefit: You are considered armed even when unarmed-that is, armed opponents do not get attacks of opportunity when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

About the lethalness of Aiel unarmed: there has been no occasion where an Aiel has beaten a person to a pulp. Yes there was the time when Gaul tackled those Westlanders after Perrin let him out, but they were unarmed too (you don't get to make AoO's unarmed unless you have IUS and they don't). And never has it said that Aiel have killed easily unarmed. So a -4 to do normal damage isn't outlandish and actually makes more sense.

No feat should allow a creature to do so much damage unarmed, it makes their spear useless (except for throwing). Natural forms of attack should never do damage comparable to damage of that creature's size without giving them an ECL (per Savage Species, and very true).

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Lord Schpungus
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posted February 09, 2003 08:29 PM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
Monks get 1d6 unarmed right at first level, and they don't provoke AoO and don't have to take -4 to attack to deal real damage. They also get good saves and great AC. They don't even have to take a feat to do this. Are they unbalanced?

Like I said, use it or not, but it's in the netbook for those who want to.

Yeah, I was wrong about IUS. Sorry.

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JosephKell
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posted February 09, 2003 10:03 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
A Monk's damage reflects constant training with unarmed combat and light weapons. Monks also devote their lives to spiritual enlightenment. If an Aiel were to join a Monastery and give up the spear and Veil, then I would let them level as a Monk. Monks are a hard class because it is so strict and guided. They are like the Lawful Barbarian! Only instead of an axe and rage, they pumble things! And the unarmed damage is a Monk Special Ability, not a feat.

So please, find a better reason to give such a powerful ability. (And actually a WotC product says that natural attacks with damage comparable to a weapon of the size of a creature gives an ECL +1).

And not everything in the Netbook should've been included.

Aiel Hand Fighting should require IUS, and even then only allow 1d3 wounds or subdual damage.

There are criticals and called shots, if someone is the best martial artist in the land, then they would have the skill (total attack bonus) to take a -8 penalty (to strike the eyes) and hit every time! Same thing with taking the -4 penalty to do wounds damage, -4 isn't that much if you are many levels higher.

[ February 09, 2003, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

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aleshandre
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posted February 10, 2003 05:00 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
About the lethalness of Aiel unarmed: there has been no occasion where an Aiel has beaten a person to a pulp. Yes there was the time when Gaul tackled those Westlanders after Perrin let him out, but they were unarmed too (you don't get to make AoO's unarmed unless you have IUS and they don't). And never has it said that Aiel have killed easily unarmed. So a -4 to do normal damage isn't outlandish and actually makes more sense.

Rand trained in the Aiel style of fighting unarmed. In WH, when he was confronting the two Asha'man in the alley it said, "As Rand prepared for the killing blow..."(emphasis added). This indicates that the Aiel stlye of unarmed fighting is lethal, or capable of being so.
quote:
No feat should allow a creature to do so much damage unarmed, it makes their spear useless (except for throwing). Natural forms of attack should never do damage comparable to damage of that creature's size without giving them an ECL (per Savage Species, and very true).
If you use the Combat Martial Arts feat from d20 Modern, you get 1d4 damage (lethal), form unarmed attacks. The only feat that increases the damage is a special ability for the Martial artist advance class.

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Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
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Fahkrin
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posted February 10, 2003 07:28 AM      Profile for Fahkrin   Email Fahkrin    Edit/Delete Post
For Rand preparing to kill someone bare-handed in Winters Heart....c'mon! Winter's Heart is a book and describes situations in real world terms. In the real world, hit points don't exist so if you get a 20th Level Armsman in the right sort of hold you can snap his neck (I'm thinking of a scene in Oz). 80 hit points to 0, in one blow: no critical, no attack bonus. You're dead.

Monks proper don't exist in WOT...giving someone a Monk's most distinctive feature (unarmed strike) with only one feat is way too easy...everyone will get that feat because its an incredible advantage.

If you just have to give characters incredible unarmed fighting prowess, make them earn it.

First make them take Improved Unarmed Strike. Then make them have to specialize in unarmed combat (Weapon Focus and then Weapon Specialization). Then, if you're generous let them take a feat to do d6 damage base.

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Lord Schpungus
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posted February 10, 2003 09:50 AM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
That's a lot of feats, but I could compromise on that. My only thing is the Weapon Specialization. Algai don't even get Weapon Spec. How are they going to do this feat tree?
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JosephKell
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posted February 10, 2003 11:18 AM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Why would Algai'd'siswai need to do 1d6 normal damage? When they touch in combat it is to prove they are better, and not to deal damage. So that would be more like a touch attack dealing no damage, because being able to waste an attack to just touch them shows that you are the better spear fighter.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted February 10, 2003 01:00 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
I would not give Algai a bigger die of damage for unarmed combat. A good GM is going to give situational modifiers, and if a PC Algai sneaks up on a sentry, makes an unarmed touch attack, and makes the STR check to break a neck, you've got one dead sentry.

In melee combat, Algai don't use their hands unless they don't have another weapon. Unarmed combat is not a first choice; for most it's a last resort. As was stated above, they are not monks, not would I treat them as such. I'd allow them to take Unarmed Combat feats with their regular feats (1, 3, 6, 9, etc) if that was what they wanted to do, and by the time they're 12th or 15th level they may qualify for the feat Empty Hand Mastery or (for Maidens of the Spear) Foot and Fist Mastery (Oriental Adventures). Empty Hand Mastery increases unarmed damage die size (I'd give them an increase to 1d6), and Foot and Fist Mastery grants a +10 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks.

Increasing hand to hand damage should not be something done lightly. Unarmed combat is not the preferred method of fighting for Aiel warriors.

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Eagle Prince
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posted February 11, 2003 01:53 AM      Profile for Eagle Prince   Email Eagle Prince    Edit/Delete Post
Check out the netbook if you want a "monkish" Aiel class. Besides Winter's Heart, Rand also killed a Warder with his bare hands in Lord of Chaos. This would have been far from the best of circumstances, probably the worst in fact. Sounds fairly deadly to me. Its also probably safe to say that at least one of the Warrior Societies are dedicated soley to unarmed combat.

I think a new Initiate class geared for Asha'man isn't a bad idea at all. At first, Dashiva was a prime example of how an Asha'man could suck at fighting w/o the One Power... but now we know this was actually foreshadowing that he had slipped through the cracks, so to speak.

I would say something with better BAB and Hit Die, less bonus feat (more similiar to Wilders) but can be used for channeling or armsmen bonus feat. Or maybe a feat every other level like the Initiate, but every other feat must alternate between armsmen and channeler (counterbalancing the better BAB and Hit Dice with something else, like +1d6 madness every class level like Wolfbrothers.)

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aleshandre
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posted February 11, 2003 04:42 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eagle Prince:
I would say something with better BAB and Hit Die, less bonus feat (more similiar to Wilders) but can be used for channeling or armsmen bonus feat. Or maybe a feat every other level like the Initiate, but every other feat must alternate between armsmen and channeler (counterbalancing the better BAB and Hit Dice with something else, like +1d6 madness every class level like Wolfbrothers.)

That sounds about right to me. Let's get a version posted or better yet sent to the new netbook. [Wink]

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Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
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Eagle Prince
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posted February 11, 2003 03:52 PM      Profile for Eagle Prince   Email Eagle Prince    Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'll start it but somebody else will have to finish it. [Evil Smirk] Alright, here's a start.

Hit Die: d6

___________________________________________________Class Skills
The soldier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Composure (Wis), Concentration (Wis), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Invert (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana)(geography)(local)(Int), Ride (Dex), Sense MOtive (Wis), and Weavesight (Int). See Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

code:
Lvl.BAB.......Fort.Ref.Will.Def.Rep.Special
1...+0.........+2..+0..+2...+3...1..Accelerated Training
2...+1.........+3..+0..+3...+4...1..Bonus feat
3...+2.........+3..+1..+3...+4...2..Swordmanship
4...+3.........+4..+1..+4...+4...2..Dedicated
5...+3.........+4..+1..+4...+5...3..Bonus feat
6...+4.........+5..+2..+5...+5...3..Slow Aging
7...+5.........+5..+2..+5...+6...4..Handfighting
8...+6/+1......+6..+2..+6...+6...4..Bonus feat
9...+6/+1......+6..+3..+6...+6...5..
10..+7/+2......+7..+3..+7...+7...5..Asha'man
11..+8/+3......+7..+3..+7...+7...6..Bonus feat
12..+9/+4......+8..+4..+8...+8...6..Advanced Melee
13..+9/+4......+8..+4..+8...+8...7..
14..+10/+5.....+9..+4..+9...+8...7..Bonus feat
15..+11/+6/+1..+9..+5..+9...+9...8..
16..+12/+7/+2..+10.+5..+10..+9...8..Mental Stability
17..+12/+7/+2..+10.+5..+10..+10..9..Bonus feat
18..+13/+8/+3..+11.+6..+11..+10..9..
19..+14/+9/+4..+11.+6..+11..+10.10..
20..+15/+10/+5.+12.+6..+12..+11.10..Bonus feat

___________________________________________________Class Features
All of the following are class features of the soldier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The soldier is proficient in all simple and martial weapons. They gain no proficiency in armor or shields.

The One Power: ...

Affinities: A soldier begins play with an Affinity for one of the following Five Powers: Earth, Fire, Spirit.

Talents and Weaves: Every soldier begins play having one common Talent and knowing eight common weaves of 0 level or 1st level (including multilevel weaves that include level 0 or 1). A soldier can gain more Talents with the Additional Talent feat. As the game progresses, the soldier can learn new weaves through observation and training, and gains bonus weaves at certain levels (see Accelerated Training below). See the Weavesight skill description for more information.
A soldier is limited to using a certain number of weaves each level per day. The number of weaves he can use per day is determined by table 3-5: Initiate Weaves, and he gains bonus weaves from having a high Intelligence and Wisdom.

Overchanneling: Like initiates, soldiers can overchannel to cast more weaves than they are normally able (see Overchanneling, page 162). However, their accelerated training also forces them to overchannel an abnormal ammount, and they gain bonuses when doing so. When overchanneling, the soldier gains a +5 competence bonus to Concentration checks and the same bonus to Fortitude saves when they fail an overchanneling attempt.

Tradition Customs: Soldiers are members of the Black Tower, and are required to obey certain regulations as part of its customs. Anyone who breaks these customs is hunted down by the Black Tower, and (if caught) killed and hung on the Traitor's Tree.
At 1st level, the soldier is still in his primary training, and every morning has to attend Roll Call. Not attending this head count can be considered treason to the Black Tower and drastic disiplinary action may be enforced.
At 4th level, the soldier earns a silver sword pin and advances to Dedicated rank. He no longer is required to attend Roll Call, but will be given specific assignments that he must attend or suffer the chance of possibly being named a traitor. These duties can include recruiting new members, teaching classes, and special missions given by the M'Hael.
At 10th level, or as soon as he enters the Asha'man prestige class, he earns the red dragon and advances to a fully-ranked Asha'man. He is now free to choose how he spends most of his time and direction of study, although occasionally will still be assigned specific missions.
The GM is free to give these ranks sooner or later for roleplaying purposes, at his option.

Accelerated Training: Unlike Initiates, soldiers are pushed to learn channeling as fast as possible, taking risks that would make most channelers cringe. They are forced to do all their chores with the One Power, where Initiates are usually encouraged to not do anything with the One Power they could do without it.
This constant pushing has several effects. First, the simple ammount of channeling they do accelerates the ill effects of tainted saidin. At first level and every additional level taken of the class, the GM secretly rolls 1d6 and adds the number to their madness rating. This is in addition to the 1d6 points of madness all male channelers get every level.
It also makes them adept ad overchanneling (see above), and quick to learn new weaves. At fifth level and every five levels thereafter, the soldier learns an additional weave. He can learn this weave from a friend or even discover it on his own, and can be common, rare, or even lost.

Bonus feats: At 2nd level, and every 3 levels thereafter (5th, 8th, 1`th, and so forth), the soldier gains a bonus feat. The soldier must choose this feat from the following list: Alertness, Armor Proficiency (any), Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise (Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack), Combat Reflexes, Dodge (Mobility, Spring Attack), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Extra Affinity, Extra Talent, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Mental Stability, Mounted Combat (Trample, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge), Multiweave, Power Attack (Cleave, Great Cleave), Power-Heightened Senses, Quick Draw, Sense Residue, Shield Proficiency, Tie Off Weave, Toughness, Two-Weaopn Fighting (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus. Some of the bonus feats available to a soldier cannot be acquired until he has gained one or more rerequisite feats; these feats are listed parenthetically after the prerequisite feat. A soldier must still meet all prerequisites for a feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimus. Important: These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets every three levels. The soldier is not limited to this list when choosing those feats.

Swordsmanship: A soldier's primary training is fighting with the One Power, but only a slight second is their training with the sword. At 3rd level, the soldier gains Weapon Focus with his choice of sword as a bonus feat.

Slow Aging: The ability to channel slows the aging process, however a soldier's accelerated training lets him advance further then initiates before this effect is in place. Starting at 6th level, divide your channeling levels by 3. The result is the number of years that must pass for your character to age one year. For example, a 6th-level soldier ages one year for every two years that goes by (in other words, he ages at half the rate of a normal person). At 12th-level, the soldier ages one year every four years (or one-quarter the rate of a normal person).

Handfighting: Along with learning the sword, the Black Tower demands its members to be able to defend themselves even when completely unarmed and unable to channel. At 7th level, they gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

Advanced Melee: At 12th level, the soldier has aquired elite training in melee combat. He gains Weapon Specialization in his choice of sword or unarmed strike, so long as he meets all the prerequisites.

Mental Stability: Should a soldier survive long enough to reach level 16, he had proven his mettle to himself as well as others. Drawing on a hidden reservoir of inner strength, he gains the Mental Stability feat for free.

[ February 11, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Eagle Prince ]

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I am the Immortal One hidden from the dawn, I am the Emperor-King after day has gone.

From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted February 11, 2003 05:45 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eagle Prince:
Well, I'll start it but somebody else will have to finish it. [Evil Smirk] Alright, here's a start.

Way to take the plunge! And a good start too, I might add.

I like the class, but I think it's a little too broad. I'd remove Handfighting and Advanced Melee as class features and move Mental Stability to level 12.

Swordsmanship (Focus) is not a bad idea, but Soldiers have a LOT of bonus feats that can be channeling or combat feats. I'd give them some starting fighting ability, but I wouldn't give it to them for free; give them the freedom to choose. That's what the 3-level character feats are for.

Armsmen are the baddest fighters, but they don't gain any class-inherent combat abilities beyond Armor Compatibility at 3rd -- they're given bonus feats to make them warriors. You've given the Soldier class bonus feats, now let them use them as they wish to focus on fighting (as I'm sure some Soldiers have) or channeling (as I'm sure the majority have).

I don't have a problem with the high saves; Wilders have higher, but it's balanced by the 3/4 BAB of this class versus the 1/2 BAB of the wilder. The defense is appropriate, I think.

I guess I'd just fix the class ability progression. I think you've got a good one here.

[ February 11, 2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Heron_Marked_Blade ]

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JosephKell
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posted February 11, 2003 06:18 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
There are a few requirements (BAB +2, 3 skills, 4 channeling feats-multi, tie, extra afinity and talent, and sword prof) for the Asha'man PrC, I think the rank of Dedicated should be awarded when a Black Tower Initiate has earned 3 of the 6 things (treating the skills as 1 and each feat as 1, granted that for the skills you need your level +3 in concentration to be considered a dedicated) if they earn it before level 4.

This class seems like a more powerful Wilder, so does it use the Initiate or the Wilder weaves per day table?

One change I would recommend is instead of d6 HD maybe "d4+1" HD would be more apropriate, I know it has never been done before, but aside from the later Slow Aging, this class gets all the things of the wilder and more. They also get the BAB, which would be very important if a GM said that all weaves require a [ranged] touch attack (like fireball would require a grenade like attack for one spot, if you miss the to hit, you use he granade scatter rules), but it gets more bab than the wilder.

Overall: very nice build, but I would still like to see it explained* (It seems this Black Tower Initiate class started with the "Initiate", but then gets a 3/4 bab, Wilder's feats, Wilder's Def, Wilder's HD, and more feats on top). And I do see the accelerated madness.

By "Explain" I mean could you describe why you choose to do certain things, sort of like cliff notes for your build step by step.

One last thing, I think Taim (until he is removed) would be weary of any male channeler that approached his level (14 I believe), even if they are loyal to him rather than the Dragon. But this is probably more of a RP thing than game balance.

Second Edit:
Note about Weaves Per Day passed level 10: Yes the Initiate is "better" after level 10, but how many games are really going to get there? The Opening (Levels 1-4) require melee characters to guard the channelers, but those characters that do the grunt work at the beginning get screwed and overshadowed once the channelers get to a point where they don't rely on "interceptors" (Armsman, and other warrior classes). Short of letting those melee characters ditch their characters and make a channeler at that level they will never catch up. But I was going off on a tangent. The real point is that most games aren't going to reach level 13-15 before the party falls apart. (unless they started off at levels like 5-7 where everyone was a channeler because if it is 2 Non-Channelers and 2 Channelers, the players will split as the "Norms" become Cheerleaders)

Nice thing about this build: 3/4 BAB allows for These Black Tower Initiates to be their own "interceptors."

Ooo ooo ooo! Good Idea! Will everyone bear with me and turn to page 215: Thief-Taker, look at its BAB: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7. Maybe something like this would work. Then after 7 a slow progression to 10 at 20 (most of them will multi into Asha'man long before level 10! Especially with the sword prof taken care of. Normal feat @ 1, class feat @ 2, norm feat @ 3, and class feat at 5, then they have the 4 channeling feats required to take Asha'man as their 6th class level.)

I think i will repost an alternate table so my vision is clear-er (if not clear).

[ February 11, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

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From: California | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted February 11, 2003 07:55 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
There. Hopes this clears up my infernal ranting... a bit. [Angel]

Hit Die: d4+1

___________________________________________________Class Skills
The soldier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Composure (Wis), Concentration (Wis), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Invert (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana, geography, local)(Int), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Weavesight (Int). See Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

code:
Lvl.BAB.......Fort.Ref.Will.Def.Rep.Special
1...+0.........+2..+0..+2...+3...1..Accelerated Training, Bonus Feat, Skill Emphasis (Concentration)
2...+1.........+3..+0..+3...+4...1..Bonus feat
3...+2.........+3..+1..+3...+4...2..Slow Aging
4...+3.........+4..+1..+4...+4...2..Power-Heightened Senses
5...+3.........+4..+1..+4...+5...3..Bonus feat
6...+4.........+5..+2..+5...+5...3..
7...+5.........+5..+2..+5...+6...4..
8...+6/+1......+6..+2..+6...+6...4..Bonus feat
9...+6/+1......+6..+3..+6...+6...5..Improved Unarmed Strike
10..+7/+2......+7..+3..+7...+7...5..
11..+8/+3......+7..+3..+7...+7...6..Bonus feat
12..+9/+4......+8..+4..+8...+8...6..
13..+9/+4......+8..+4..+8...+8...7..
14..+10/+5.....+9..+4..+9...+8...7..Bonus feat
15..+11/+6/+1..+9..+5..+9...+9...8..
16..+12/+7/+2..+10.+5..+10..+9...8..Mental Stability
17..+12/+7/+2..+10.+5..+10..+10..9..Bonus feat
18..+13/+8/+3..+11.+6..+11..+10..9..
19..+14/+9/+4..+11.+6..+11..+10.10..
20..+15/+10/+5.+12.+6..+12..+11.10..Bonus feat

___________________________________________________Class Features
All of the following are class features of the soldier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The soldier is proficient in all simple and proficiency with one martial sword (typically longsword). They gain no proficiency in armor or shields.

The One Power: Use the Initiate table. (Hard choice, because Wilders gain access to 2-7 weaves earlier. Access to 6 at level 9, rather than 11, and 7 at level 12, rather than 13).

Affinities: A soldier begins play with an Affinity for one of the following Five Powers: Earth, Fire, Spirit.

Talents and Weaves: Max weave based on Int, with bonus weaves form Int and Wis. (Though I constantly think about having it for Wisdom with Charisma for bonus weaves also, Male Channelers don't seem the "Intellegence" driven channelers that Aes Sedai are, but Aiel Wise Ones are Initiates too, so who knows? I might reverse this later.)

Overchanneling: Overchannel Bonus (+3), note that the fortitude save is higher for this class than the Wilder.

Weavesight: Black Tower Initiates gain a +2 bonus to all Weavesight checks. When learning from a mentor, Black Tower Initiates gain an additional +3 bonus.

Skill Emphasis (Concentration): This gives +3 bonus to Concentration checks (this off sets the limited +3 bonus above, but it doesn't help when they fail the Concentration check).

Tradition Customs:
--Soldier: Upon joining the Black Tower (I.E. level 1 of Black Tower Initiate or running into another Black Tower Channeler).
--Dediciated: Once 2 of the Channeling feats for Asha'man prestige class are taken and 2 of the skill prerequisites are met.
--Asha'man on taking the Prestige Class.
(Note: Channelers approaching level 10 seem to gain the M'Hael's supervision, as if to be picked out for special training [or execution].)

Accelerated Training: For each level of Black Tower Initiate the Male channeler gains 1d3 extra madness in addition to the normal 1d6. (the original 1d6 was pretty heavy handed)

Bonus Weaves: same (but for rare and lost weaves, you must get your GM's permission). However things like Create Gateway and Skimming are taught to all Black Tower Iniatiates (and wilders that join) if they are able to learn them (if they have Talent for Traveling).

Bonus feats: Channeler Feat and Armsman feat tables combined.

Swordsmanship: Snip, they can use a bonus feat to gain Weapon Focus, getting a sword prof for free is powerful enough as it is, it is one of the Asha'man prerequisites.

Slow Aging: Returned to original: ˝ Channeler level.

Power-Heightened Senses: as per feat (I threw this in because it generally isn't taken otherwise, and it is something that anyone that uses the One Power as much as the Black Tower Initiate should get. I personally think that Power-Heightened Senses should give Male Channelers Darkvision 20 ft, and Female Channelers Low-Light Vision; Low-Light Vision doubles the distance you can see from light sources, so if it is 10 feet or more radius of light, then a Female with this feat can see as far or farther. Granting men the Darkvision ability also promotes seizing Saidin more often and thus overchanneling).

Handfighting: Snip, use a bonus feat for Improved Unarmed Strike.

Advanced Melee: Snip, use a bonus feat (most Black Tower Initiates will not go beyond 10th level in this class and will go into Asha'man anyway)

Improved Unarmed Strike: By 9th level the Black Tower Initiate has learned Improved Unarmed Strike.

Mental Stability: Should a soldier survive long enough to reach level 16, he had proven his mettle to himself as well as others. Drawing on a hidden reservoir of inner strength, he gains the Mental Stability feat for free.

---------------------------

Now for the Reasons: I reduced the HD and removed many of the given combat feats because, that is what those bonus feats are for. And because this gets much of what a wilder gets but without a block. Yes this version doesn't gain the 2 common weaves a wilder gains every level, but like someone said before in Initiate vs. Wilder threads, Initiates learn most of the weaves they need from their Tradition.

BAB for most Asha'man will be +12/+7/+2 by level 20 (10 Black Tower Initiate/10 Asha'man).

Lower Overchannel bonus: The +3 is for both Concentration and Fortitude checks when overchanneling. This may look like a short change for them, but see below.

Skill Emphasis (Concentration): This gives +3 to all concentration checks, like the one for Overchanneling. But this +3 won't help if the male fails his Concentration check when overchanneling. (Can we say: "Bad **** happens to people that overchannel all the live long day.")

Extra Bonus feat at level 1: If someone is a Wilder 1 and joins the Black Tower, they will need 5 more levels in BTI to go into Asha'man for their 7th Character level, this way a Wilder can still join the highest rank at character level 6 (5 levels for the 8 concentration prereq. and +1 level is Asha'man 1).

I tossed in IUS, because someone found a quote. Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't grant automatic wound damage, it still requires -4 to do 1d3 wounds.

[ February 12, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

--------------------
Instant Message me @ JonERPG on the AIMer

Visit AielManSpear

-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
-If your character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook...
-If you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four charges left...
-If the God of Destiny asks you what will have next...
...you might be a Munchkin.

From: California | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged


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