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Author Topic: Is it possible to shield a linked person??
Blackdraman
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posted February 23, 2003 09:44 AM      Profile for Blackdraman   Email Blackdraman    Edit/Delete Post
Is it possible to shield a linked person?

If so what would be the consequences of shielding the leader of the circle? Or of shielding the only man in a circle of 15?

Would love any feedback and thoughts.

[ February 23, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Blackdraman ]

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Blackdraman
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posted February 23, 2003 09:55 AM      Profile for Blackdraman   Email Blackdraman    Edit/Delete Post
Another question. What about shielding damane and sul'dam? Would you have to shield one or the other .....or both?

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Whitewinds
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posted February 23, 2003 11:47 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
Shielding a linked person should be possible, and would definitely break the circel, which would probably be very bad for the other channelers in the link. I'd suggest requiring all the participants to make a Fort check as for overchanneling a weave equal to the bonus the circle would normally give to see how badly they're hurt. And if the leader was overchanneling at the time, add the number of levels by which that person was overchanneling.

As for damane and sul'dam, I think that you'd need to shield the damane, since she's the power source.

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Duloth
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posted February 23, 2003 11:47 AM      Profile for Duloth   Email Duloth    Edit/Delete Post
You can shield linked people as normal. No real consequence, ber reducing the strength of the link, or (If its 13+ and involves a Male, and you shield the male) breaking it up entirely.

Damane and Sul`dam:
Sul`dam are, of course, channelers, but in most cases, they are at most 1st-level Initiates or Wilders. If you shielded the Damane, the Sul`dam might not realize it, and use her own powers, believing she were using the Damane. If you shielded the Sul`dam, then, of course, she'd have no access to the source, and couldn't use the adam to direct the Damane. Which means? Since Sul`dams are very low level channelers, its incredibly easy to stop them.. shield them, and the Damane is free, or undirected. And they discourage free thought in their Damane, so...

Basically, any army with at least 1 channeler in it could shield all of the Sul`dam, tie off the weaves, and make them have no power to access. And since the Sul`dam have no idea they can only use Damane because they wield the power, they'd have no idea how to counter it.

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Dortamur
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posted February 23, 2003 03:57 PM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
But to be a Sul'dam doesn't involve actual channeling. It's just required that the user be capable of channeling. They don't even need to have the spark.

It's an interesting question though: Does a Ter'angreal that can only be used by channelers, but doesn't require actual channeling, still work if the channeler is shielded?

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JosephKell
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posted February 23, 2003 04:07 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
why would someone shield someone other than the one that can actually channel? To shield the sul'dam is probably easier, but that is Meta-game thinking.

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Melriken
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posted February 23, 2003 05:39 PM      Profile for Melriken   Email Melriken    Edit/Delete Post
First let me say that no one has seen this happen in the books, so anything is just speculation.

Here is my speculation:
You can shield those in a link, however it is harder, treat them as a level equal to thier actual level + the weave bonus from the link. They are embracing the source so dont forget that penalty. (this is because they have more power going through them then normal). Further anyone in a link that is shielded other than the leader does not remove them from the link, however the bonus from the link is determined as though any shielded members are not included. Also anyone attempting to join the link can only join if they could join if shielded member were not part of the circle. Shielding the circle leader causes the link to collaps and releases all members from the link. The circle leader may attempt a reflex save to transfer control of the circle, however they must make this attempt before saving against the shield itself, and control is transfered regardless of the success or falure of the normal save.
Should a circle collapse due to shielding of the circle leader all members of the circle are stunned for one round as they udjust to the loss of the circle.

but like I said that is just how I would handle it.

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Blackdraman
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posted February 24, 2003 08:26 AM      Profile for Blackdraman   Email Blackdraman    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And they discourage free thought in their Damane, so...

Not only that but the a'dam will not let the damane do much of anything, and nothing involving channeling. I speculate that it would act like a leash with out a sul'dam in it.

quote:
To shield the sul'dam is probably easier, but that is Meta-game thinking.

Meta-game thinking it might be, but my players will eventually come up with it own their own. And if I can not come up with a honest, well thought out reason that it would not work, I (in good conscience )would have to allow it.

Also, why would shielding the sul'dam be easier? She is linked to a damane, there for she is drawing on the damane's power, even if unconsciously.

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Marcus Gabriel
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posted February 24, 2003 10:13 AM      Profile for Marcus Gabriel      Edit/Delete Post
one thought about using this tactic against sul'dam. A damane is so conditioned to her role, (especially ones from their homeland ) she would no doubt obey regardless of the sul'dam's ability to enforce her orders.

this would somewhat reduce the sucess of this as a PC tactic.

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Xythlord
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posted February 25, 2003 05:25 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
I was thinking on this last night and something occured to me. Even if you did shield a Sul'dam it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever to the damane. Like Dortamur said in his post, the a'dam does not require that the person wearing it be able to channel, just that they be capable of channeling. Remember when Moghy was wearing the modified a'dam that Elayne made. Nyn was able to control her channeling even though she wasn't mad enough to channel a spark, she still had access to Moghy's channeling ability.

I don't think that shielding a Sul'dam would have any effect on the damane, except to single you out for targeting next round.

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Dortamur
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posted February 25, 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly! And thanks for thinking of an a'dam specific example to confirm the theory. [Big Grin]

Still, I'm sometimes confused as to how the a'dam link works. With Nyn & Mog, it was clearly Nyn doing the weaving, using Mog's power. Mog could barely channel a trickle herself, and so couldn't demo high-level weaves, even if granted permission under their control.

Yet in other instances it's described more as the Suldam directing and commanding the Damane doing the work. ie; it's the Damane that knows how to Lightning strike, not the Suldam doing the weave through the Damane.

With her time as Damane, Egwene grew stronger in certain talents, and learned new weaves and new uses. That also implies it was her doing the weaving. Not some Suldam just pulling power through her, controlling the weave.

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Whitewinds
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posted February 25, 2003 11:13 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dortamur:
Exactly! And thanks for thinking of an a'dam specific example to confirm the theory. [Big Grin]

Still, I'm sometimes confused as to how the a'dam link works. With Nyn & Mog, it was clearly Nyn doing the weaving, using Mog's power. Mog could barely channel a trickle herself, and so couldn't demo high-level weaves, even if granted permission under their control.

Yet in other instances it's described more as the Suldam directing and commanding the Damane doing the work. ie; it's the Damane that knows how to Lightning strike, not the Suldam doing the weave through the Damane.

With her time as Damane, Egwene grew stronger in certain talents, and learned new weaves and new uses. That also implies it was her doing the weaving. Not some Suldam just pulling power through her, controlling the weave.

I think the problem was that 1) the a'dam might not have been a precise duplicate of a Seanchan one, and 2) for all her power and her quite formidable Healing talents, Nyn's not a sul'dam. She was never trained in the use of an a'dam, nor was Egwene.
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Xythlord
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posted February 26, 2003 04:48 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Also remember that an a'dam is a forced link. The Suldam has to "allow" the damane to channel, just like a real circle can shift the focus to another individual besides the person who first started it, although with the a'dam the control always stays with the leash holder even when she is not herself channeling. Nyneave was a fully accomplished channeler (albight with a block), so she could use the a'dam to access the full power on her own just like a normal Circle, without needing permission to link in the first place. Suldam are not trained to channel at all, period. So they don't "know" they can channel and have to "let" the damane cast the weaves.

And as a thread a little while back indicated, this is why the Sad Bracelets (i.e. -the male a'dam) has two braceletes and one collar.....because it takes two women and one man to form a circle or the man is in charge (in the case of a one man / one woman circle). This a'dam can allow one woman to control a man, but she has to wear both bracelets. And of course she will slowly go insane with him [Devilish] . Or at least she would before saidin got cleansed.

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Blackdraman
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posted February 26, 2003 06:07 AM      Profile for Blackdraman   Email Blackdraman    Edit/Delete Post
But the bottom line question on sul'dam and damane is does the sul'dam loose direct (through the leash) control if she is shielded?

If she does, how would a captured Windfinder or Aes Sedai or even a Wise One react if the sul'dam lost control?

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 26, 2003 07:52 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dortamur:
Mog could barely channel a trickle herself, and so couldn't demo high-level weaves, even if granted permission under their control.

Eh? Where do you get that? Moggy was at full power, they just didn't let her do much for fear someone would notice.

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Lord Schpungus
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posted February 26, 2003 08:03 AM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
There's a glow around people who can channel even if they're not currently doing it. Moggy taught them the weave to disguise one's strength in the Power first so they could have her walk around Salidar without every Aes Sedai within eyeshot knowing she was a Forsaken. I think it was just masking her strength instead of choking the flow, though.
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Dortamur
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posted February 26, 2003 05:03 PM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
When Egwene was a Damane, she could channel a trickle, even with no suldam, although it made her feel ill.

I'm sure it was also said that Mog couldn't show the others certain weaves, as she could only channel a trickle - but my memory's not the greatest. [Big Grin] It also could've been a) a ruse by Mog to not show them new stuff, or b) Nyn/El not giving her permission to channel enough to demo them, for fear of her managing to do something else.

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Duloth
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posted February 28, 2003 09:11 PM      Profile for Duloth   Email Duloth    Edit/Delete Post
Since an A`dam can only be used by someone who can channel (They have to have the spark. Basically, Sul`dam probably become 1st-level initiates at some point without realizing it) and, if a Damane isn't linked to someone they can channel they can only do insignificant things, and with great effort... This means that if you shielded the Sul`Dam, the A`dam would stop working, as the Sul`dam ceased being a channeler temporarily (Remember, in several cases Shield and Sever were described as being very very similar) and thus, the Damane would no longer be able to be directed by her Damane, or capable of using anything but most likely 0th level weaves. A player who learned of the Sul`dam, and used the WeaveSight skill successfully, might realize that the Sul`dam was a channeler as well. If they learned what the A`dam was as well, this would mean they'd know that without the Sul`dam at the leash, the Damane couldn't hurt them.

Note: To anyone but the Seanchan, it'd be easy to tell the Sul`dam were channelers. They suffer a cultural bias. If a campaign involved the Seanchan enough for the players to learn what the Damane were... then a smart group could make Damane useless. Its much easier to shield a 1st-level Initiate Sul`dam than a 10th level Initiate Damane.

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Xythlord
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posted February 28, 2003 10:21 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Except for the fact that an a'dam does not work off channeling. Furthermore, although a Sul'dam may eventually become a dormant channeler, at first they have no ability whatsoever! After some time, they learn to sense a female channeler, and can even see the weaves....at first they can only do so while wearing an a'dam with a damane. so it would be reasonable to assume that although it requires someone with the spark to use an a'dam, they are not actually channeling anything so shielding them wouldn't do anything at all. A shielded Sul'dam would have no loss in their ability to control a damane because an a'dam does not rely on anybody but the damane to have embraced the source.

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jacob_stroh
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posted March 04, 2003 01:28 PM      Profile for jacob_stroh   Email jacob_stroh    Edit/Delete Post
duloth said:

"Since an A`dam can only be used by someone who can channel (They have to have the spark. Basically, Sul`dam probably become 1st-level initiates at some point without realizing it)"

Did you forget about those who do not have the spark but could be taught to channel. In fact we see in the second book that Sul`dam in seanchan routienly go to towns to test for the ability. those with the spark are all eventualy found and leashed. They also let other girls put on the braclets to see if they can 'feel' the damne.
A sul`dam would never have the spark Olny the ability to learn.

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Duloth
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posted March 04, 2003 02:02 PM      Profile for Duloth   Email Duloth    Edit/Delete Post
Just one thing that counters it: The only people who can use A`dams are those who can learn to channel, or can channel already. Meaning? Ability to channel influences use of the A`dam. Even if you can't actually channel anything, theres still that bit there. Not bright enough for them to be a Wilder and for the test to pick up..but maybe the only things that are ever picked up are either Wilders or higher-level Initiates. Low-level initiates can't be detected; not enough spark.

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Xythlord
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posted March 04, 2003 04:17 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Or..... ANYBODY who can channel will be collared while those who can be tought, but haven't yet can use the a'dam. It isn't till much later that the Sul'dam are able to sometimes see the weaves or know that a female can channel, something any low level channeler can do. An a'dam only works for somebody who can channel or learn to channel, it doesn't work off of channeling so a new Sul'dam would not need to have any classes that could channel.

I don't know which thread it was on, but recently somebody mentioned that most likely, Sul'dam have several levels of Expert, with older ones have maybe 1 level of Wilder (with a block of cannot channel without being complete -or attached to a damane). I thought that this was an excellent way of portaying these characters.

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Whitewinds
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posted March 04, 2003 10:20 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
That was me. Thank you.
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Duloth
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posted March 05, 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for Duloth   Email Duloth    Edit/Delete Post
"Anybody who can channel, while those who can be taught, but haven't yet"......

If they can be taught to channel, they can already channel. The power is there, they just don't know how to use it. Its like a muscle they haven't used. The difference between those selected for Damane and those for Sul`dam is that in the Damane, this 'muscle' is naturally strong enough to be detected. But just because its weak, doesn't mean its there.

In order to learn to channel, you must have the ability to channel. You are born able to do it, but not knowing how. In reality, even the Sul`dam probably use the power in their own tiny ways, but never realize that they are doing so, and its so weak nobody notices. The power isn't some template you can add in life. You have it throughout your life, whether its strong enough to use or not.

And the pure and simple thing of it is... if the Sul`dam doesn't either A: Draw power from the holder, or B: Require the holder to use the power, then why doesn't it work for non-channelers as well? Simple. It does one of those two. It has to, or else Sul`dam would be unneeded, anyone could use it. So? This means that cutting off access to the Power for a Sul`dam would make her unable to use the A`dam, since the A`dam would either lose its guidance, or lose its 'power' source. And, boom, the Damane suddenly suffers the normal un-leashed restrictions.

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Xythlord
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posted March 05, 2003 05:20 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
First off, I would like to share a little quote from book 2.

"I have thought about it a great deal," Egwene said. "Thinking was all I could do when they left me alone up here. Sul'dam claim they develop an affinity after a few years. Most of them can tell when a woman is channeling whether they're leashed to her or not. I wasn't sure, but Seta proves it."

"Proves what?" Elayne demanded, and then her eyes widened in sudden realization, but Egwene went on.

"Nynaeve, a’dam only work on women who can channel. Don't you see? Sul'dam can channel the same as damane." Seta groaned through her teeth, shaking her head in violent denial.

"A sul'dam would die before admitting she could channel, even if she knew, and they never train the ability, so they cannot do anything with it, but they can channel."

"I told you," Min said. "That collar shouldn't have worked on her." She was doing up the last buttons down Egwene's back. "Any woman who couldn't channel would be able to beat you silly while you tried to control her with it."
"How can that be?" Nynaeve said. "I thought the Seanchan put leashes on any woman who can channel."

"All of those they find," Egwene told her. "But those they can find are like you, and me, and
Elayne. We were born with it, ready to channel whether anyone taught us or not. But what about
Seanchan girls who aren't born with the ability, but who could be taught? Not just any woman can become a - a Leash Holder. Renna thought she was being friendly telling me about it. It is apparently a feastday in Seanchan villages when the sul'dam come to test the girls. They want to
find any like you and me, and leash them, but they let all the others put on a bracelet to see if they can feel what the poor woman in the collar feels. Those who can are taken away to be
trained as sul'dam. They are the women who could be taught."


quote:
Originally posted by Duloth:
"Anybody who can channel, while those who can be taught, but haven't yet"......

If they can be taught to channel, they can already channel. The power is there, they just don't know how to use it. Its like a muscle they haven't used. The difference between those selected for Damane and those for Sul`dam is that in the Damane, this 'muscle' is naturally strong enough to be detected. But just because its weak, doesn't mean its there.

Fair enough, there are two types of channelers: those that born with the ability and will channel whether they want to or not -and are known as Wilders by the Tower and Damane in Seanchan. The other is those that are born with the ability but will never channel without being taught. These are the majority of those at the Tower and are those that can become Sul'dam.

quote:

In order to learn to channel, you must have the ability to channel. You are born able to do it, but not knowing how. In reality, even the Sul`dam probably use the power in their own tiny ways, but never realize that they are doing so, and its so weak nobody notices. The power isn't some template you can add in life. You have it throughout your life, whether its strong enough to use or not.

The Sul'dam cannot use the Power at all unless they learn to embrace the source. This is a very specific process, that is described in detail throughout the books. They may eventually gain the potential by associated with the damane over a long period of time, to sense other channelers, to see the weaves, etc, but they cannot channel a single thing without embracing. This would also mean that they do not use it in small things because then they would be seen by other Sul'dam/damane when they glow.

Before you mention wilders unconsiously doing these things, wilders also develop a block to protect themselves, Sul'dam don't.

quote:

And the pure and simple thing of it is... if the Sul`dam doesn't either A: Draw power from the holder, or B: Require the holder to use the power, then why doesn't it work for non-channelers as well? Simple. It does one of those two. It has to, or else Sul`dam would be unneeded, anyone could use it. So? This means that cutting off access to the Power for a Sul`dam would make her unable to use the A`dam, since the A`dam would either lose its guidance, or lose its 'power' source. And, boom, the Damane suddenly suffers the normal un-leashed restrictions.

The reason that an a'dam works is that it is a forced link. It doesn't require the power because you just put it on, unlike some other ter'angreal we have seen where you need to channel into it. A Sul'dam could not channel into because she has never embraced the source, remember she only feels complete when she is with a damane who has embraced the source. Otherwise she would feel the joy of saidar by herself.

I could be wrong, its been known to happen, but I think that my reasoning is pretty concrete on this. If you have any evidence other than opinion, please provide the quote and page number (either RPG or the Novels), and I will be happy to look at it and revise my conclusion.

[ March 05, 2003, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Xythlord ]

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