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Author Topic: A question about Golems
MyJhongKngF
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posted November 25, 2002 07:30 PM      Profile for MyJhongKngF      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, for those of you who have been playing this or have actually read the books:

What is a golem? What can it do? Can it be killed, and how? If not, how can somebody survive and get the hell away?

I have never read the books and I don't own the player's guide. However, I am currently playing this world and we are currently battling one. What the hell is it and can I hurt it?

Any and all tips welcome.

From: Florida | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dayana Sedai
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posted November 25, 2002 07:53 PM      Profile for Dayana Sedai      Edit/Delete Post
Well, running is always a good option. The answer acording to the books? Can Gholams be killed. The answer is: we don't know yet. Mat hurt one by accident when he fought it but it melted the ter'angreal that kept him from being hurt by the power. Weapons dont' seem to do any damage to it. Flows of the one power flow around it. The saving grace is: Gholams only really go after channelers unless ordered by one of the Forsaken. That would be good news if you wern't a channeler. ::gulps:: Well again, running is a smart move, but they can find ya' no doubt about it.

Good Luck

Dayana Adrinna Sedai
Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah
Countessa of the House of Adrinna

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The house of Adrinna will rise to the glory of Cairhien and bring light to the world. It is so sworn on the sun throne.

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted November 25, 2002 09:01 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have my book with me right now, but I don't think it melted Mat's ter'angreal... I rather think the ter'angreal started to melt IT...

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"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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Dayana Sedai
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posted November 25, 2002 09:08 PM      Profile for Dayana Sedai      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have my book either, I only seem to remember it was melted (because I remember thinking. OH MY GOD, IT IS BROKEN. Cause didn't he say something like he was worried about how it would work now or something? sorry if I'm propogating false information.

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The house of Adrinna will rise to the glory of Cairhien and bring light to the world. It is so sworn on the sun throne.

From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
dscrank
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posted November 25, 2002 09:49 PM      Profile for dscrank      Edit/Delete Post
There's no evidence that Mat's amulet has been damaged. As a matter of fact, when he felt it after it burned the gholam, it felt cool.

Frankly, if anyone has a power-wrought weapon, you stand a chance--if your GM's playing by the rulebook, anyway. If he's using something like my revised gholam (which I think is closer to the original), I second the advice of the others and suggest running. If anyone can make a gateway, do so, hop through, and slam it shut.

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-Donald S. Crankshaw

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Dayana Sedai
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posted November 25, 2002 09:57 PM      Profile for Dayana Sedai      Edit/Delete Post
What if the Golam was half way in the portal when it slams shut? Weaves don't affect it, it has no bones, but the portal closes and the two sections of the patern are no longer connected. Half on one side and half on the other? Does it get cut in half? and does it keep living like a worm? hehehehehehe I am gonna learn a bit of traveling

Dayana Adrinna Sedai
Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah
Countessa of the House of Adrinna

--------------------
The house of Adrinna will rise to the glory of Cairhien and bring light to the world. It is so sworn on the sun throne.

From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eosin_the_Red
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posted November 25, 2002 10:30 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
Gholams are esentially magic dead zones - any active magic that comes into contact with them will harmlessly dissapate. So, a gateway won't cut one in half but you could chunk a mountain with arms of air and do some serious hurt (it would survive but it takes a long time to dig out for under a mountain.)

Mats amulet is also a magic dead zone and it seemed to do a number on the Gholem. I think there is an argument that it could have been the silver in the amulet that did the job on the vampi...I mean Gholam. Not so sure I believe that argument but.....

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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dayana Sedai
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posted November 25, 2002 10:40 PM      Profile for Dayana Sedai      Edit/Delete Post
I don't belive the magic deadzone-stedding theory. I personally think the medalion of Mat's wasn't a magic deadzone OR a Ter'angreal but rather something outside (from the snake people) something PERHAPS of the true power or some other power other than the one power.

The Gholam seem odd. Remember, only 7(?) were created. They don't mate, and only one is known to have survived. Perhaps the Gholam come from a mirror of the weave or a different world all together. Lanfear (Selene) in EotW either summons a pack of Gorlm or they exist on a mirror world: Gholam may be such a thing: or maybe they exist partway between the worlds and the one power cannot effect them anymore than it could effect the dark one.

Perhaps I should have been a Brown. Anyway, just some friendly chatting [Smile] I luvs ya' Eosin ::blows a kiss::

Dayana Adrinna Sedai
Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah
Countessa of the House of Adrinna

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The house of Adrinna will rise to the glory of Cairhien and bring light to the world. It is so sworn on the sun throne.

From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Daikatana
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posted November 25, 2002 10:58 PM      Profile for Daikatana      Edit/Delete Post
Mats medallion makes the weaves unravle while the Gholam is not affected becouse the weaves will not touch it.

Mats medallionis a ter'angeral, at least thats what they say in the books.

And Aginor made a total of eight Gholam 4 male and 4 female, butt no one knows how many has survived thrugh the millenia sice the were made.

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"Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose... it's how drunk you get"
Homer Simpson

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted November 25, 2002 11:32 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
You can describe the gholam's weave breaking ability however you want, but it is not touched by the one power. Even the forsaken tread lightly around the creatures (which are Earthly vampires in all but name). Anginor created them IIRC along with all of the other shadow spawn.

Was the gholam awake in the stasis box?

Mat's medallion is the same, describe it as you choose, but the one power does not work against it.

In my book, I call it a magic dead zone. Not believing something does not make it false [Big Grin]

PS - The True Power comes from the DO, the medallion does not seem dark.

PPS - I personally do not think the Elfinn & Aelfinn are the dark ones servants, but it is possble they lie somewhere outside the wheel. But, they want nothing to do with the power, so I doubt the medallion was crafted by them.

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Call of the Horn
Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the WOT RPG FAQ.

From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
dscrank
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posted November 26, 2002 08:54 AM      Profile for dscrank      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red:
PPS - I personally do not think the Elfinn & Aelfinn are the dark ones servants, but it is possble they lie somewhere outside the wheel. But, they want nothing to do with the power, so I doubt the medallion was crafted by them.

Then wouldn't it be perfect for them to have an amulet that nullifies the One Power? I don't think the amulet works by the True Power, but I don't think it works by the One Power either.

In any case, I really do think you could cut a gholam apart with a gateway since, like Dayana said, one part would be physically in one place while the other part would be in another place when the gateway ceased to exist. It'd be an indirect effect of the One Power. I'm not saying you could cut him with the edge of it, but I think a gateway would wink out the moment the edge touched a gholam, which would be bad for the gholam if he were halfway through at the time. You'd have to slam it shut pretty fast in order to catch him in it.

[ November 26, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: dscrank ]

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Shadowkiller
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posted November 26, 2002 09:21 AM      Profile for Shadowkiller      Edit/Delete Post
I decided a while back that gholams were completely magic, or made of the one power while Mats medalian negated it. With the gholam, what does one power do when it hits a pool of One power, I would think that the pool would eat it, like rain on a lake. Thats how I imagined the gholam. Mats medallion(I cant spell) is like a desert. When it rains, the desert just absorbs the water and theres nothing left after. Thats why Mats medalian is the only thing that hurts the gholam so much.

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Xythlord
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posted November 26, 2002 03:16 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
One thing that I have thought upon is that if the gholam is totaly resistant (or immune) to the One Power than would he be able to pass through gateways at all. We have seen that when weaves touch him they just melt away, wouldn't the weave for the gateway do the same.

Furthermore, would the gholam pass through wards or would they collapse on contact with him.

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

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Dayana Sedai
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posted November 26, 2002 03:34 PM      Profile for Dayana Sedai      Edit/Delete Post
I belive that the weaves create a hole (or similarity if your a girly) in the patern. The weaves do not exist IN the hole, but around it. The gateway itself (like the mountain) isn't of the patern, just the holding open of it. When the weave is let go, the similarity (or tunnel if your a boy) ceases to be held open and colapses. If you timed it correctly and perhaps CUT the weave the gate would snap shut. I think this would only work though with a gateway and NOT a skimming portal.

As for a ward, the ward is constructed of a weave most certainly, the former my opinion, the later common sense. So I do think it would colapse or bend. The weaves flow around not melt. I don't think the ward would drop, but the golam would just turn it into a lopsided bagel or donut or something. OOoooh, redbull is wearing off . . . must replentish crack

Dayana Adrinna Sedai
Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah
Countessa of the House of Adrinna

--------------------
The house of Adrinna will rise to the glory of Cairhien and bring light to the world. It is so sworn on the sun throne.

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted November 26, 2002 07:55 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One thing that I have thought upon is that if the gholam is totaly resistant (or immune) to the One Power than would he be able to pass through gateways at all. We have seen that when weaves touch him they just melt away, wouldn't the weave for the gateway do the same.
Exactly - that is why this becomes relevant:

quote:
Was the gholam awake in the stasis box?
I wanted to expand but thought that a partial key to its resistance is knowing if it was awake or asleep in the stais box? If it was asleep that indicates that either someone knew of a way to turn it off or it fell to the magic of the box. If it remained awake......

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Call of the Horn
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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
dscrank
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posted November 26, 2002 08:46 PM      Profile for dscrank      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red:
quote:
One thing that I have thought upon is that if the gholam is totaly resistant (or immune) to the One Power than would he be able to pass through gateways at all. We have seen that when weaves touch him they just melt away, wouldn't the weave for the gateway do the same.
Exactly.

Mat can pass through gateways, while wearing his amulet--reference the end of tFoH (to Caemlyn), also tLoC (to Salidar, and to Ebou Dar). My take is that only the edges of the gateways are made with the power. The middle is just a hole.

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted November 26, 2002 09:22 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mat can pass through gateways, while wearing his amulet--reference the end of tFoH (to Caemlyn), also tLoC (to Salidar, and to Ebou Dar). My take is that only the edges of the gateways are made with the power. The middle is just a hole.
Good call. I guess the middle of a gateway in not enchanted or there is some eratta for RJ to write [Smile]

That still does not answer the question of the Gholam (I guess that might answer the question about weather it could use a gate).

--------------------
Call of the Horn
Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the WOT RPG FAQ.

From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted November 26, 2002 09:28 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord:
One thing that I have thought upon is that if the gholam is totaly resistant (or immune) to the One Power than would he be able to pass through gateways at all. We have seen that when weaves touch him they just melt away, wouldn't the weave for the gateway do the same.

The gateway isn't so much a weave as it is a result of the weave. If an Aes Sedai created a Wall of Fire, would the Gholam be able to walk through it without being harmed? I don't think so, because the fire is no longer the weave or entirely the One Power. In the same way, I don't think a bolt of lightning or a fireball would fade away if it was cast at Mat -- the lightning and fireball are no longer the One Power. They were created by the One Power, but are now their own elements. Does that make sense?

According to Encyclopedia WoT, Mat's foxhead medallion "is a ter'angreal that negates flows of saidin and saidar that contact it." When Rand attacks Rahvin in Caemlyn, Mat is turned into a pair of smoking boots by Rahvin's lightning. The ter'angreal obviously didn't protect him from the lightning. Why? I think it's because lightning (and fireballs, etc) is not a flow; it's a result of a weave, a natural "element" produced by the One Power.

Back to the gateway, flows are used to create it, but once it's created it's its own thing. I think a Gholam could pass through it, and that if the channeler was quick enough he/she could catch him in the middle (Sammael catching Shaido Aiel and cutting them in half when he "helped" them flee Rand); looking at how fast the Gholam is, the channeler would have to be pretty quick. [Evil Smirk]

I don't have my books with me, but if there is evidence of Fireballs or weaves that are no longer weaves (if that makes sense) unravelling upon contact with the Gholam, please let me know (page numbers would help).

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"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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MyJhongKngF
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posted November 27, 2002 12:15 AM      Profile for MyJhongKngF      Edit/Delete Post
Okay. According to the rules, how can damage be done to it? c'mon...
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dscrank
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posted November 27, 2002 12:21 AM      Profile for dscrank      Edit/Delete Post
Like I said earlier, try Power-wrought weapons. If you don't have any, or the GM rules that Power-wrought weapons shouldn't work against gholam (and they shouldn't), then run. Fast.

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-Donald S. Crankshaw

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dscrank
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posted November 27, 2002 12:24 AM      Profile for dscrank      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade:
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord:
One thing that I have thought upon is that if the gholam is totaly resistant (or immune) to the One Power than would he be able to pass through gateways at all. We have seen that when weaves touch him they just melt away, wouldn't the weave for the gateway do the same.

The gateway isn't so much a weave as it is a result of the weave. If an Aes Sedai created a Wall of Fire, would the Gholam be able to walk through it without being harmed? I don't think so, because the fire is no longer the weave or entirely the One Power. In the same way, I don't think a bolt of lightning or a fireball would fade away if it was cast at Mat -- the lightning and fireball are no longer the One Power. They were created by the One Power, but are now their own elements. Does that make sense?

I don't have my books with me, but if there is evidence of Fireballs or weaves that are no longer weaves (if that makes sense) unravelling upon contact with the Gholam, please let me know (page numbers would help).

One thing that I'm not convinced of is that a fireball or wall of fire is not still a weave. That's not how fire behaves naturally, so it can't be just fire and forget, therefore I'd rule that they are still weaves, and that they'd unravel on contact with Mat or the gholam. Both Mat and gholam may take a slight burn in the process, but the full effect would be lost.

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He Who Must Not Be Named
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posted November 27, 2002 03:31 PM      Profile for He Who Must Not Be Named   Email He Who Must Not Be Named    Edit/Delete Post
In my humble opinion anything, and I mean ANYTHING of the One Power simply fadesn away once in contact with either Gholam or Mat once he is wearing his foxhead medallion. The only thing that would even touch them would be to wrap flows of air around something and hit em with it. Gateways, fireballs, flows of air all weaves fade once they come into contact with them. So I will add my advice to all the others in saying run.
[Big Grin]

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Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted November 27, 2002 05:30 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade:
According to Encyclopedia WoT, Mat's foxhead medallion "is a ter'angreal that negates flows of saidin and saidar that contact it." When Rand attacks Rahvin in Caemlyn, Mat is turned into a pair of smoking boots by Rahvin's lightning. The ter'angreal obviously didn't protect him from the lightning.

This little incident is what's throwing a wrench into my understanding of why everything (weave) One Power-related would fade away upon contact. What makes lightning different from all the other weaves that the medallion negates? Mat and the Band are sent through gateways (Rand sends Mat to Salidar, I think, and Elayne/Nynaeve's group takes Mat with them to Ebou Dar via gateway), and the medallion doesn't negate those. You could argue that the medallion doesn't actually touch the gateway, but I'd disagree. No weave targetted at Mat touches him, therefore the medallion's effect applies to all of Mat, therefore he should function the same as the Gholam in terms of One Power immunity. If Mat can enter and exit gateways, the Gholam should be able to as well.

Unless, of course, Mat's medallion and the Gholam's ability do not function in the same manner...

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"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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Raymond99
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posted November 27, 2002 06:00 PM      Profile for Raymond99      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade:
quote:

ter'angreal obviously didn't protect him from the lightning.

...What makes lightning different from all the other weaves that the medallion negates?

My understanding of Lightning weaves is that the bolt strikes a point, creating an explosion that affects an area. Mat was kille by overlapping explosions, not a direct hit with a bolt. Since we know that secondary effects of weaves can affect Mat despite the medallion (drop a rock on him using Arms of Air), the explosion theory is plausible.

As for gateways, its possible that the "hole" is created by the Power, but is not suffused with the power. In other words, the weave stays on the edges of the gateway, holding the hole open. As long as Mat doesn't touch an edge, the gateway will stand (and since he knows edges are dangerous, he won't).

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Harkael
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posted November 27, 2002 08:12 PM      Profile for Harkael   Email Harkael    Edit/Delete Post
That's interesting......whoever said that mats amulet protects him from both saidin and saidar is mistaken. Two reasons, when he asks the people in the archway he doesnt say "protect me from the one power" (why would he) he says something more along the line of "keep those aes sedai from messing with me" second, when rand sees mat's smoking corpse he notes that evidently his amulet doesnt protect from saidar. thought id clear that up. and in the rules it states that a gholam passes through wards as if they werent there, so niether the ward or the gholam are affected in any why by it passing through.
Just thought id add that

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but i rolled....an......18..."

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