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Author Topic: Warders who channel
Philosopher Jack
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posted August 28, 2002 09:52 PM      Profile for Philosopher Jack      Edit/Delete Post
Guys,

I have a situation in my game that I'm not sure how to deal with. I have a channeler who is about to make another player-character her warder. That player can also channel (I know it is against the WOT rules, but it is allowed in the books). Anyway, the channeling character about to be bonded is also planning to take a warder. Is this possible? Can a channeling warder take a warder of his own? What if he bonded the person who originally bonded him? Whew!

Philosopher Jack

P.S. My game is in trouble. I somehow allowed the characters to get a male a'dam on one of the forsaken. They call him peaches.

From: Bellingham, WA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Merclaar
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posted August 28, 2002 10:39 PM      Profile for Merclaar      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm, kill the Forsake (a Gholam?).
He isn't anymore a forsaken, if he let himself get prisoned...

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Merclaar

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Dark Ashaman
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posted August 29, 2002 12:37 AM      Profile for Dark Ashaman      Edit/Delete Post
About the Warder question, I don't see anything wrong with it. A channeler could bond another channeler and the second channeler could bond someone as well. Even if that person can channel as well. It can be a never ending cycle!

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Saulis
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posted August 29, 2002 04:18 AM      Profile for Saulis      Edit/Delete Post
lol...
As far as "Peaches" goes, remember that the male a'dam that was discovered in the books was a dangerous item to use. Eventually, the bound channeler begins to be able to exert control over the channelers (there were two bracelets attached to the collar) that have him collared. Eventually they have approximately equal control over each other, none being able to leave the linkage unless the other(s) consent(s). Just have him start making the channelers that are binding him toss a couple of fireballs at their friends. They'll get the point. [Devilish]

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"Black holes are where God divided by zero."
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From: Far Madding | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted August 29, 2002 06:21 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
Alternatively, you can just have the Forsaken rescued, along the lines of Aran'gar rescuing Moghedien.

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Dave Rothgery
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Freya
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posted August 29, 2002 06:38 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
I just wanted to comment on channelers bonding eachother. I'd think this would definately be possible. I'd also think that it would be more intimate a bond since you are doubly 'commiting' to eachother until one or the other dies. (At least that's how it's portrayed in our game...two channelers that are married bond eachother to cement their intimacy.) [Smile]

As for a bonded channeling warder taking on a warder of his own...sure, it would probably be possible. it sounds like rabid munchkinism to me, but it is probably possible.

as always, it's your game...if you don't want it to happen, then don't let it happen. if the adam-ed forsaken is a problem (don't see how it couldn't ..), then have one of his forsaken 'friends' rescue him for a price. [Wink]

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felicia
AKA Freya Culadin

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DanausMantrose
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posted August 29, 2002 08:58 AM      Profile for DanausMantrose      Edit/Delete Post
I'm with everyone else here in agreeing that a Channeler should be able to Bond another Channeler.

However, I think some definate changes/expections to the book's Bond Warder weave would be in order.

1) Compel to Obey doesn't work. Sorry. Nada. No dice. Call it the One Power's natural resistance aiding the individual if you want. I would be TEMPTED to say that a Male channeler could still Compel a Female (ala Logain & his horde). That's something I'd leave up to the GM to decide. All evidence so far, however, points to the fact that a female channeler cannot Compel a Male channeler. Alanna vs Rand is the prime example. While other male channelers have been bonded by Aes Sedai, we see no evidence that they can/have been Compeled.

2) Proximity; same as Compel above.

3) This one is iffy, and would depend on how close you want to be to the books. Sense Shadowspawn. The Bond (in the books) conveys this ability to the Warder. Of course, per the books, this is also an innate skill for Channelers (not a weave). If channelers have it innately anyway, and we're talking about a channeler/channeler bond.. no need to add this to the Bonding anyway. [Smile]

From: Michigan | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted August 29, 2002 09:46 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DanausMantrose:
However, I think some definate changes/expections to the book's Bond Warder weave would be in order.

I tend to agree. Some changes would be necessary.

quote:

1) Compel to Obey doesn't work. Sorry. Nada. No dice. Call it the One Power's natural resistance aiding the individual if you want. I would be TEMPTED to say that a Male channeler could still Compel a Female (ala Logain & his horde). That's something I'd leave up to the GM to decide. All evidence so far, however, points to the fact that a female channeler cannot Compel a Male channeler. Alanna vs Rand is the prime example. While other male channelers have been bonded by Aes Sedai, we see no evidence that they can/have been Compeled.

I don't quite know where I stand on this one yet. Rand and Alanna are not a good example of compulsion not working on a channeler...we're talking about the Dragon Reborn here, hardly a 'common' channeler by any means. Now, with the Aes Sedai bonding those Ashaman at the end of Winter's Heart... those would be great examples whether some of the Bond Warder stuff works or not. Have to wait for Crossroads of Twilight.

As for the Ashaman Bonding Aes Sedai (Logain), I tend to be of the camp that thinks that their version of Bonding is different from the Aes Sedai version. The Ashaman 'figured' out Bonding as a way to know how their wives are doing when they are away. (So perhaps a 'subservience' feeling was worked into the boned.) The Aes Sedai developed Bonding as a way for a person to be the best 'bodyguard' possible. Big difference in philosophies and outcomes.

quote:

2) Proximity; same as Compel above.

Why won't proximity work? That doesn't make any sense to me.

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felicia
AKA Freya Culadin

From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted August 29, 2002 10:22 AM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
As far as the bonding goes, its perfectly legit (if you go by the books). After all Elayne bonded herself to brigette; and Rand, who is bonded to Allana, Min, and Avienda; who was bonded to Egwene by the Wise ones. I think that this bonding circle is a bit more complex than yours, so yours should be perfectly ok. [Big Grin]

[ August 29, 2002, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged ]

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Katalya Aes Sedai
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posted August 29, 2002 11:00 AM      Profile for Katalya Aes Sedai      Edit/Delete Post
The game mechanics already make it pretty much impossible to succeed in compelling your warder, particularly if he is a channeler.

As is, (s)he has to make a DC 10 + 5 (level of Bond Warder weave) + Primary Spellcasting Attribute Will save, or else be compelled. Oh, and (s)he has access to your Wisdom bonus, if necessary. I have yet to try using my character's Warder bond with another PC this way, just because I doubt that it will work (DC 19 against a +8 will save is pretty much a 50/50 chance).

Fluff-wise, Alanna cannot compel Rand not so much because he is a male channeler, but because he is incredibly strong-willed. Nynaeve fights of Moghedion's Compulsion in the Panarch's palace, and Rand has a great deal more practice resisting mental influences than she does - he has been tormented in his dreams by Ishamael since Eye of the World, is holding madness at bay, and spends all his time wrapped in the Void trying to make himself hard/strong enough to fulfill his responsibilities. He's come a long way since being Compelled by Liandrin in the beginning of Great Hunt (and IIRC, he was resisting that fairly well, also).

In terms of D20 WoT rules, a channeler who has been Warder bonded still has a *very* good Will save, and will probably shrug off attempts at Compulsion. Rand is a 10th-level Wilder with like 20 Wisdom - of course Alanna can't Compel him.

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From: Phoenix, AZ or Williamstown, MA | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted August 29, 2002 11:55 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
That's nonsense.

Myrelle (and Moiraine) cleary could use the warder bond to compel Lan, and I think it's pretty hard to argue that Rand is significantly more strong-willed than Lan is. Besides, there's certainly textual evidence (from Sammael's point of view) that holding saidin provides some degree of immunity to being compelled with the One Power.

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Dave Rothgery
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Mantyluoto
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posted August 29, 2002 01:48 PM      Profile for Mantyluoto   Email Mantyluoto    Edit/Delete Post


[ August 29, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Mantyluoto ]

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Mantyluoto
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posted August 29, 2002 01:49 PM      Profile for Mantyluoto   Email Mantyluoto    Edit/Delete Post


[ August 29, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Mantyluoto ]

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Mantyluoto
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posted August 29, 2002 01:49 PM      Profile for Mantyluoto   Email Mantyluoto    Edit/Delete Post
but didnt moraine bond Lan properly whereas Alanna bonded rand on the spur of the moment. i'm sure Elayne muttered something about wishing she had put some sort of obedience order into her bond with birgitte and her's was the spur of the moment kind of bond.

as you can see with the above two posts by me i'm having some technical difficulty. nothing that a sledge hammer shouldn't sort out.

[ August 29, 2002, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Mantyluoto ]

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Sharn_Penndroen
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posted August 29, 2002 03:21 PM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
I also have a couple of changes to the Bond Warder weave. First of all in the rule book it talks about Warders having increased endurance and rapid healing. The rapid healing can be accounted for with the energy exchange thing, but the endurance. Sure you can say that the Warder PrC has a high fort save and d12 hit die, but not all warder bonded people are "Warders." How is it that the Warder Bond saved Birgette's life? I am considering giving Endurance and Toughness to targets of a warder bond. They aren't very powerful feats and besides these characters need something for devoting their lives to service. Also I use a Detect Shadowspawn for Warders. I'm sure everyone here agrees that this is clearly an effect of the Warder Bond. Not just a weave for Aes Sedai. (I mean the Aes Sedai would be paranoid, "Let me channel a weave and see if there happen to be shadowspawn in the area.") That would be a little silly.
However some Shadowspawn can slip by this ability, (like the greymen). The mechanics of the Detect Shadowspawn Ability that I use are Spot Check vs. Hide check. Therefore any shadowspawn good at sneaking around, like a Greyman would be less likely to be caught, and a very alert Warder would be more likely to sense one. What do y'all think? Just some ideas I've thought of while zoneing out in Organic Chemistry.

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted August 30, 2002 07:11 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
Grey Men do not "normally" have the ability to not be detected as Shadowspawn. It is generally beleived that in all the instances we have seen where they were not sensed when they should have been, they were warded by Black Ajah or the Forsaken.

HTH!

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Philosopher Jack
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posted August 30, 2002 11:27 AM      Profile for Philosopher Jack      Edit/Delete Post
I have a follow-up question. [Smile]

What happens when an Aes Sedai who has a warder is made into a Damane? Does the Sul'dam gain control via compulsion of the Warder? Whew, what a mess!

Philosopher Jack (reeling from the punches)

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drothgery
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posted August 30, 2002 09:46 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
While a sul'dam could in theory force a an Aes Sedai-turned-damane to compel her Warder, it's very unlikely this would happen. The sul'dam would have to know that Aes Sedai can compel their Warders, and I don't know where they'd learn that. Besides, a Warder whose Aes Sedai was captured by the Seanchan would almost certainly rescue her or die trying before the sul'dam could figure out much about the Warder bond.

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Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
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Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

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Mystyck
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posted August 31, 2002 08:50 PM      Profile for Mystyck   Email Mystyck    Edit/Delete Post
Two things to remember about the Alanna/Rand Bond, is that:
1) Alanna is already severly rattled about loosing BOTH her preivous warders. SHe is still just coming out of that shock when she bonds Rand
2) Alanna, in her shockes state, is having an increasingly hard time dealing with the wound in Rand's side.

IIRC, The bond that Elaine uses to bond Rand and Min and Aviendha is a modification of the first sisters bond... not a mod of the warder bond. The two are similar, but not the same.

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DanausMantrose
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posted September 01, 2002 06:30 AM      Profile for DanausMantrose      Edit/Delete Post
Re: the bond created by Elayne for Min, her, Av and Rand. If you'll reread that section, you'll see that the sister-weave was used to 'link' the three girls; so that everything which happened to one would happen to the others. She states in the description of the weave that at the end 'she wove the weaves for the Warder Bonding weave at the end of the sister one'. So the actual bonding to Rand was the same as the Warder Bond, it was just modified so that all three women could be part of the Bond.

Of course, these brings up other ideas; such as a Warder Bond that Bonds multiple Warders at a single instance. I'm sure the Greens would love that one; Group Bonding [Smile]

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JosephKell
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posted September 04, 2002 04:08 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DanausMantrose:
I'm with everyone else here in agreeing that a Channeler should be able to Bond another Channeler.

However, I think some definate changes/expections to the book's Bond Warder weave would be in order.

1) Compel to Obey doesn't work. Sorry. Nada. No dice. Call it the One Power's natural resistance aiding the individual if you want. I would be TEMPTED to say that a Male channeler could still Compel a Female (ala Logain & his horde). That's something I'd leave up to the GM to decide. All evidence so far, however, points to the fact that a female channeler cannot Compel a Male channeler. Alanna vs Rand is the prime example. While other male channelers have been bonded by Aes Sedai, we see no evidence that they can/have been Compeled.

2) Proximity; same as Compel above.

3) This one is iffy, and would depend on how close you want to be to the books. Sense Shadowspawn. The Bond (in the books) conveys this ability to the Warder. Of course, per the books, this is also an innate skill for Channelers (not a weave). If channelers have it innately anyway, and we're talking about a channeler/channeler bond.. no need to add this to the Bonding anyway. [Smile]

point 1 response: There have only been four male channelers bonded (that I know of). Rand and the three Asha'man that Taim said were traitors (they weren't, and got scared because they were loyal to Rand directly rather than through Taim).

Rand resists the compelling ability at worst, or turns it on Alanna at best. (not sure if this is more peer pressure or actually using it on her)

The other three seem to be actually hiding with the Aes Sedai, and they are kept on pretty short leases. If you read near the end of Winter's Heart, it seemed that they were not only guarding the three Aes Sedai, but also being guarded by them. I got the feeling though that those three WANTED to please their Aes Sedai (they asked the women to bound them, not the other way around) to make sure they weren't unbound.

Possibly Rand's compulsion immunity is a very high will save modifier, being Ta'veren, or possibly (unlikely if the other three were compelled) the taint of Saidin.

2) Proximity: Woah, how can you suggest removing that? Alanna used that all the time to find Rand! Dumei's Well, Far Maddening... feeling Rand Travel around.

3) Sense Shadowspawn: I think this should be moved to the Warder Class PrC. Not sure which level to put it at though. Maybe it should also be activated like the listen skill (that is the closest I can think of, you listen for stuff around you, why not sense for shadowspawn around you) where you have to declare it as a free action(?).

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Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted September 04, 2002 04:28 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
What about all the Aes Sedai the Black Tower captured, wern't they bonded by the Asha'man that captured them? I could be wrong, I havn't read that book i a while. I also agree that the Bond Warder needs sense shadowspawn. Have a nice day [Smile]

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Arr MiHardies
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posted September 04, 2002 05:54 PM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
Hmm.. I really like the idea of making sense shadowspan a skill based ability. it works a lot better and easier like that. Restrict it to all the same classes of course. I might just have to write that up

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Freya
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posted September 05, 2002 06:45 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
[QB]The other three seem to be actually hiding with the Aes Sedai, and they are kept on pretty short leases. If you read near the end of Winter's Heart, it seemed that they were not only guarding the three Aes Sedai, but also being guarded by them. I got the feeling though that those three WANTED to please their Aes Sedai (they asked the women to bound them, not the other way around) to make sure they weren't unbound.[QB]

Maybe it was too subtle for some people (I thought it was obvious), the Aes Sedai and the Ashaman were 'in love' (most at least). At least that was the impression I got. There was genuine affection between the men and the women. That's why the Aes Sedai seemed to actively guard the Ashaman and why the Ashaman actively guarded the Aes Sedai. And why the Ashaman asked for/submitted to being Bonded.

As for 'short leashes,' I have *no clue* where you got that from. [Razz]

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felicia
AKA Freya Culadin

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Xythlord
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posted September 05, 2002 10:07 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Well mistress Freya, that very well might be true for some of the other Asha'man, but not for all.

According to Winters Heart, ch. 35 quoting from the POV of Eben Hopwil
"He lifter her cowl back into place on her head, and she smiled at him from its depths. The bond carried her affection to him, and his own back, he supposed. With time, he thought he might come to love this little Aes Sedai."

Affection is a far cry from the feeling of passion felt by the multi-bond with Rand and the girls. Now while this quote does point out that he is becoming fond of her, this took place after the bond had been made, not before. So if he was not in love with her, nor her with him before the bond was made....then there would have to be another reason for him to request being bonded and for her to do so.

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