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Author Topic: Interesting changes in plot as of CoT.
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 17, 2003 08:26 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SonoftheNineMoons:
I agree with you that the evidence from the books does not support Mazrim Taim being Demandred. However, your reliance on these e-mails to support your theory is circumstantial at best and insulting at worst. I would suggest you post more reliable sources in the future.

[Roll Eyes]

You, again, have no idea what rasfwr-j is, obviously.

We wrote the FAQ on WoT. Literally. Teresa and Patrick Nielsen Hayden post there. A significant portion of the regulars have been there since the group was formed in mid '95, and many long before that when the discussions were on rec.arts.sf.written. Many of us know each other IRL and have close friendships because of the group.

These are not e-mails. They are independantly corroborated reports of public RJ signing sessions. We've had people try to fake signing reports before, and always debunked them. This is as close to RJ journalism as you're going to get.

Your calling these "e-mails" is insulting at least, and ignorant at best.

HTH. HAND. DLTDHYAOTWO.

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
aleshandre
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posted February 17, 2003 08:56 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Even if they were Emails, why would several people want to make a statement like that, knowing that they will be caught in the lie by the end of the books at latest and by Skwind's team at any given time earlier? I personally don't think a true WoT fan would do it. It's quite different to belive whole-heartedly an incorrect theory as opposed to lying about something RJ "actually said".

On another note, I had no intention of being offensive with my last post reguarding the Taimandred theory and I appear to be corrected on a point which I appearently misread [Blush] , that's something I don't usually do. That being said, Taimandred still has no corraberating evidence. Further, these statements by multiple sources on the subject show clearly that Taim and Demandred are not the same person. [Wink]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
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From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
SonoftheNineMoons
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posted February 17, 2003 09:34 AM      Profile for SonoftheNineMoons      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by aleshandre:
[QB]Even if they were Emails, why would several people want to make a statement like that, knowing that they will be caught in the lie by the end of the books at latest and by Skwind's team at any given time earlier? I personally don't think a true WoT fan would do it. It's quite different to belive whole-heartedly an incorrect theory as opposed to lying about something RJ "actually said".

That’s exactly my point. Thank you. [Big Grin]

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drothgery
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posted February 17, 2003 10:02 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
Even if they were Emails, why would several people want to make a statement like that, knowing that they will be caught in the lie by the end of the books at latest and by Skwind's team at any given time earlier?

Rasfwr-j (and the JORDAN: threads on rasfw which led to rasfwr-j being formed) predates Skwid's participation there (and mine) by years.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
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From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Selindra
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posted February 17, 2003 11:16 AM      Profile for Selindra   Email Selindra    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jwanderer5:
Interesting......In the other thread on this board that's discussing CoT and Perrin getting Faile back, one of the possiblities that came up, is that he goes into the camp as a blacksmith. Also he could take in Aram as a Tinker, since he still wears Tinkers clothes. But to pull that off he needs to have Aram leave his sword behind. I could see that as definatly being the last straw for Aram.

Whether Perrin is a blacksmith or not, he's still not Aiel. I don't care if he's wearing a leather blacksmith apron, carrying a blacksmith hammer in one hand and an anvil in the other, the Aiel (especially the Shaido) would still kill or capture him on sight. It's not like the Aiel regard blacksmiths as the Creator...they just respect them. They respect Aiel blacksmiths, that is, and even that doesn't let them do whatever they want w/in Aiel society.

As for Tinkers, we know they let them cross the waste, but they avoid them like the plague. They aren't soon letting a Tinker into their camp.

Perrin and Aram would be dead as soon as they took one step into the camp.

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Dave Shramek
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posted February 17, 2003 11:35 AM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
True. Shaido ruining proud traditions are one thing. But, I think you underestimate the importance of Blacksmiths. You don't take blacksmiths is the same level of prohibition as not taking Wise Ones. Even the Shaido are likely to respect that. Tinkers, they keep their distance from, and many respect them as a lost tribe, but only the chiefs no why and since the Shaido don't have a chief, they aren't likely to remember why they need to keep that part of the bargain.

Let's also not forget the Brotherless. It is likely that the Shaido wouldn't be likely to take a blacksmith or a Tinker with the Brotherless there to try and force some ji'e'toh onto them. I think this whole thing is vitally important to Perrin. I don't believe they have enough Seanchan at the end of CoT to take on the tens if not hundreds of thousands of Shaido in that camp.

--------------------
As always, I cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.

From: Austin | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 17, 2003 12:40 PM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
Even if they were Emails, why would several people want to make a statement like that, knowing that they will be caught in the lie by the end of the books at latest and by Skwind's team at any given time earlier?

Rasfwr-j (and the JORDAN: threads on rasfw which led to rasfwr-j being formed) predates Skwid's participation there (and mine) by years.

Indeed, I don't think it would be fair to term rasfwr-j as "Skwid's team" in any way, shape, or form. I am a minor player there (although, the group itself had only been around for about 7 or 8 months when I started reading, the JORDAN threads go back for years prior to that), and certainly never meant to imply anything more.

[ February 17, 2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: The Great Gray Skwid ]

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
JakoShadows
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posted February 17, 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for JakoShadows      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, I don't even know where to begin:

1. They are on the net. That right there brings anything said into question. You mean to tell me everything printed on the net is absolutely true and nothing has ever been hosted.

2. They are emails and basically as valid as anything I or anyone else chose to post.
I don't care who wrote the FAQ or why... it's just a list of coffee talk opinions - some good and some bad by a group of friends.

So, get off your high horse... even the FAQ says you're only 1/3 right and you're getting upset when someone questions its authority.

That's sad.

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JakoShadows
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posted February 17, 2003 01:34 PM      Profile for JakoShadows      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JakoShadows:
[QB]Ok, I don't even know where to begin:

1. They are on the net. That right there brings anything said into question. You mean to tell me everything printed on the net is absolutely true and nothing has ever been hosted. [QB]

Hoaxed that is... heh

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Selindra
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posted February 17, 2003 04:46 PM      Profile for Selindra   Email Selindra    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek:
True. Shaido ruining proud traditions are one thing. But, I think you underestimate the importance of Blacksmiths. You don't take blacksmiths is the same level of prohibition as not taking Wise Ones.

Yes, I'd agree w/ you that Wise Ones and blacksmiths are probably about on equal footing in certain respects w/ even the Shaido.

However, there are two points that I think make this argument irrelevant (though not incorrect):

1. Even though WO and blacksmiths can't be taken gai'shan or be engaged in battle, they are still subject to the law. I don't think a WO, and especially not a blacksmith, could just take whichever gai'shan they chose and do anything they wanted w/ them (such as set them free.) Especially since Faile and co. are Sevanna's gai'shan, who, shall we say, is mildly possessive. [Wink] Any blacksmith would unquestionably feel Sevanna's wrath if he tried to take her gai'shan.

2. This is the more obvious one: Perrin and Aram are not Aiel. Therefore, they get no inherent respect or special consideration from the Aiel. Only if they were peddlers or gleemen would they maybe get a modicom of respect, but even then they would get nowhere near being able to rescue/remove gai'shan. They're still wetlanders. The Shaido may or may not kill Aram, seeing as how he's a tinker, but Perrin dies or is captured the mintue they see him. I doubt he is saved just because he calls out "Wait, I'm a blacksmith!"

I just see no way either of them is allowed to even hang out in the Shaido camp, let alone be given any chance to rescue Faile once there. Maybe they can sneak their way in, but just because Perrin was once an apprentice blacksmith won't mean anything to the Aiel.

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Lord Schpungus
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posted February 17, 2003 05:11 PM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
One word: Ta'veren.
From: The Global Community | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
aleshandre
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posted February 17, 2003 05:19 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
Indeed, I don't think it would be fair to term rasfwr-j as "Skwid's team" in any way, shape, or form. I am a minor player there (although, the group itself had only been around for about 7 or 8 months when I started reading, the JORDAN threads go back for years prior to that), and certainly never meant to imply anything more.

I didn't mean to imply ownership of the group. I used the form to indicate participation, which while accurate in the sense of participation obviously caused misunderstanding with the dual meaning which can also be taken as a statement of ownership.

Skwind,(gee, I noticed that I addressed the wrong person as well as misspelling the name. I meant to address Jak here [Blush] )
You seem to be defensive here. You are not being attacked. The point of these opposing posts is to try to persuade, not attack.
There is infact a lot of information on the internet that is false; however, this does not change the fact that as Skwind pointed out, many of them know each other in real life, and that the group debunks the false claims as readily as they put forward verifiable claims. The nature of such a group is - if not above suspicion, atleast above reproach. [Wink]

[ February 18, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: aleshandre ]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Heron_Marked_Blade
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posted February 17, 2003 08:49 PM      Profile for Heron_Marked_Blade      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JakoShadows:
Ok, I don't even know where to begin:

1. <snip> You mean to tell me everything printed on the net is absolutely true and nothing has ever been [hoaxed].

<snip>

So, get off your high horse... even the FAQ says you're only 1/3 right and you're getting upset when someone questions its authority.

That's sad.

Sigh. So much anger. Can't we all just get along?

/steps onto his soapbox.

Seriously, though, ladies and gentlemen: I understand disagreements in opinion; I understand anger at opinions that differ from mine; I understand the desire to cut the proponent of that different opinion down to a size better suited to his/her "obviously and insensibly wrong" point of view.

But could we be adult about this? Can we understand that for some people there will never be enough evidence to change their minds to "our" way of thinking, and let it go at that? Let's keep our posts 1) relevant, 2) polite, and 3) clear of references to our opponent's lack of intelligence or common sense or any insinuations to that effect.

When things get ugly, the boards become a much less appealing place to be, and none of us have the right to make the boards an unattractive place for others.

/bows to the assembled masses (see below) and steps off of his soapbox.

[Crowd] [Crowd] [Crowd] [Crowd]

--------------------
"Suravye ninto manshima taishite."

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 17, 2003 08:51 PM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JakoShadows:
2. They are emails and basically as valid as anything I or anyone else chose to post.

As I said, insulting at worst and ignorant at best. Dissapointing. Is it something in the avatar?

I particularly love the absurdity of the contextless application of the "1/3 right" quote. [Roll Eyes]

Aleshandre, nice sentiments, but I am curious how that "n" got in my name...

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

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SonoftheNineMoons
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posted February 18, 2003 06:40 AM      Profile for SonoftheNineMoons      Edit/Delete Post
I guess I have to apologize to you Skwid or should I say Mr. Robert Jordan. I didn't realize that you had to taken on a pseudonym to converse with your fans.

Pride cometh before the fall. [Evil Smirk]

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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 18, 2003 07:23 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SonoftheNineMoons:
Pride cometh before the fall.

Didn't you know I'm the humblest? [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
aleshandre
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posted February 18, 2003 07:28 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
[Blush] [Blush] [Blush]
OOPS! I misread the name! How stupid does that make me?
Really, if the saying is true that the smarter you are, the dumber the mistakes you make are, then I'm a FREAKIN' GENIOUS!! [ROFL]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted February 18, 2003 01:07 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
quote:
Originally posted by SonoftheNineMoons:
Pride cometh before the fall.

Didn't you know I'm the humblest? [Roll Eyes]

Just because Novak doesn't hang out here doesn't mean you can go stealing his titles [Wink]

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 18, 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
quote:
Originally posted by SonoftheNineMoons:
Pride cometh before the fall.

Didn't you know I'm the humblest? [Roll Eyes]

Just because Novak doesn't hang out here doesn't mean you can go stealing his titles [Wink]

[Big Grin]
Heh. Humblest Mollusk is mine by rights, I think.

Besides. I'm his right hand man. He said so when I fetched him a Diet Pepsi.

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted February 18, 2003 11:12 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
.... Was that a 12 oz can or a 2 liter bottle?

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From: California | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 19, 2003 10:44 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
.... Was that a 12 oz can or a 2 liter bottle?

12 oz. can. It was out on a snowy porch in the depths of an Indiana winter, though, just for context.

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lord Schpungus
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posted February 19, 2003 11:06 AM      Profile for Lord Schpungus      Edit/Delete Post
An Indiana winter? Meh. You want something with real bite, not some eastern state locked away who knows where. Change it to a North Dakotan winter and it's golden.
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drothgery
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posted February 19, 2003 12:33 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
.... Was that a 12 oz can or a 2 liter bottle?

12 oz. can. It was out on a snowy porch in the depths of an Indiana winter, though, just for context.

Was this before or after someone carved a Dragon's Fang in the snow on top of my car?

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
jwanderer5
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posted February 19, 2003 05:24 PM      Profile for jwanderer5   Email jwanderer5    Edit/Delete Post
Why should the Aiel kill Perrin, because he's not Aiel? They let the blacksmiths go with the old and young in the town they just captured.
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The Great Gray Skwid
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posted February 20, 2003 06:26 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gray Skwid:
12 oz. can. It was out on a snowy porch in the depths of an Indiana winter, though, just for context.

Was this before or after someone carved a Dragon's Fang in the snow on top of my car?[/QB]
Hmmm...after, I think. I'm not sure, though.

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged


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