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Author Topic: Wilder vs. Initiate
Cirelle
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posted August 15, 2002 01:53 PM      Profile for Cirelle      Edit/Delete Post
Hi there!
I'm quite a newbie to GM, and such, and I've been reading in the Big Rule Book, and I must say that one thing confuses me.
It seems to me, that Wilders are better than the Initiates. Is that so? Or... well, what are your experiences? I'd love to hear what you all have got to say!

This is a nice forum..!

In the Light,
Cirelle

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From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Avi_MHael
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posted August 15, 2002 02:17 PM      Profile for Avi_MHael   Email Avi_MHael    Edit/Delete Post
*waves to Cirelle*

It's Davian!

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From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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posted August 15, 2002 02:28 PM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
I have to start by saying, we've never had any PC Initiates in our game and only one PC Wilder, so most of what I have to say on this is theoretical.

However, it depends on what you mean by "better."

Wilders get a faster spell slot progression, more low level slots, a major overchanneling bonus and a "free" weave every level. OTOH, Wilder Blocks can be crippling.

Initiates get more free feats, a Weavesight bonus, the ability to channel at will and membership in a channeling tradition.

That last point, and most often overlooked part, is what actually makes Initiates "better" than wilders IMO. An Initiate can reasonablely expect to know far more weaves than a wilder, because she has a mentor or mentors actively teaching her. She can also reasonablely expect to recieve assistance and support from her tradition... being a Wise One's apprentice or an Accepted of the Tower carries with it a weight of authority that should not be overlooked. Of course, it also carries with it a set of expectations and resonpsibilities that should also not be overlooked... but those are called adventures hooks more often than not. [Smile]

So, in terms of number and strength of weaves you can cast, Wilders do have an edge. However, in almost every other respect Initiates have the advantage. IMO

From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted August 15, 2002 02:51 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Wilders are better than initiates, but Iniates out strip wilders if they multiclass into their tradition's prestige class early on.

Basicly a level 20 wilder is better than a level 20 initiate, but a level 20 wilder will have trouble against an Initiate 10/Wildfinder 10 (they get like 3 bonus Multiweave feats! lol "I can shield you, you, you, you AND you all at once!")

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phrostphyre
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posted August 15, 2002 03:05 PM      Profile for phrostphyre   Email phrostphyre    Edit/Delete Post
Holy smelly stuff!!

Hey Cirelle, I've just come back from Sweden, where I met Jeanette (Ciry), AnnaMia (Chili) and Johan (Sadram) plus one other you may not know.

Shame you couldn't be there, it was a blast!!!!

What Lucius says is correct, you have to balance the improved number of spells and overchannelling bonus of a Wilder against the number of feats an Initiate gets.

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Magai
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posted August 15, 2002 03:39 PM      Profile for Magai   Email Magai    Edit/Delete Post
Why not try the best of both worlds. Be an Wilder off the start and then after lvl 2 mutliclass into an Initiate. More feats, Free talent, Free affinity, and you get the bonus of the Feat progression with the bonuses for over channeling of a Wilder. However, as a Male channeler the only reason I would over channel is if I had no choice either over channel or die... I go insane enough as it is.

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted August 15, 2002 04:20 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
I did the math on these guys when the game first came out - Wilders MAY have a slight power edge until 6th level, by 13 the wilder gets totally smoked by an Initiate.

PS - at 6th level the initiate has approx 4 more feats (that more than balances the higher spellslot, which is rapidly diminishing at this point).

The one boost is the channeling of non-talented slots, but again this is minimized by the far more accelerated feat progression (I don't need to channel outside of my talents- I have them all).

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JosephKell
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posted August 15, 2002 04:56 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone realize that most of WoT isn't about level 20 characters? Rand as a level 14 wilder is good enough (I know pages like Call of the Horn have level 20+ characters). If overchanneling weren't important, than it wouldn't be in the game. Period. All channelers should max out concentration, weavesight, composure (wilders anyway, if they don't want Eliminate Block), and Invert (if you GM lets you). But mostly Concentration and Weavesight. Concentration is for multiweaves and overchanneling. Wilders are better at overchanneling than Initiates.

Overchanneling boosts weaves like an angreal, so you don't need as many higher weave slots.

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Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged
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posted August 15, 2002 05:20 PM      Profile for Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged   Email Wowbangers the Infinitely Prolonged    Edit/Delete Post
Amen reverend. I like the Initiate better because of the oodles of bonus channeling feats that the class gets. And the lack of the Block feat is nice too, so you don't have to burn a feat to get rid of it (or 'gasp' live with it.

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From: The middle of nowhere....South Dakota | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted August 15, 2002 05:40 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
That is all Initiates get, which is fair, but how many feats does it really take to get all the talents/affinities and multiweave (at least once), sense residue, and tie off weave? Sure men also need to get Mental Stability, but things like Power Heightened Senses are useless.

Initiates have bonus channeler feats mainly so they can access their Prestige classes by level 4-5. (of course doing so means not getting a second affinity until after 4th level, but they you get Resolve and Improved Resolve that much faster, if you are an Asha'man or Aes Sedai)

the main reason I like Wilders over Initiates is that Initiates have d4 hit dice while Wilders have d6. And Wilders don't have responsibilities to any traditions. Too bad Ebou Dar was taken by the Seanchan, that was a great Wilder Dive... (not sure they would want many males though)

[ August 15, 2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

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Xythlord
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posted August 15, 2002 05:58 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Actually by the time the Kin fled Ebou Dari, they would have stayed away from any male wilder even more so than a normal person would. They were very much aware of the view Aes Sedai took on both male channelers and "groups" of female channelers.

The fact is, the Kin tried to avoid channeling when they could. And if you had gone there looking for them, more than likely they would have avoided you. Remember they only picked up runaways or those the tower would not of worried about.

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Arafel is Full of Strange Folks
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posted August 15, 2002 07:11 PM      Profile for Arafel is Full of Strange Folks   Email Arafel is Full of Strange Folks    Edit/Delete Post
I think the largest part has to do with the campaign that your GM is running. Just to give an example, in the lastest one I'm playing in, I was sent out of the Tower as an Initiate on a "secret" mission. This entailed going all the way to Tear, getting quite a few levels without the aide of any other channeler, and effectively slowing the progression of the character because I had no one to learn new weaves from. The catch to it was I had the requirements to take the Aes Sedai prestige class, but I couldn't "join" until I was back in the Tower (the Oath Rod).

Looking at Wilders, if the GM forces them to meet a mentor group (Aes Sedai, Wise One, et all) through role-playing to gain levels of Initiate, the switch might not be possible (within the game context).

Of course, all of this is discretionary; your GM might let you jump ship and level as freely as you want. But generally I feel putting role-playing constraints on channelers is the best way to reign in their dominating combat qualities.

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted August 15, 2002 11:06 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Does anyone realize that most of WoT isn't about level 20 characters? Rand as a level 14 wilder is good enough (I know pages like Call of the Horn have level 20+ characters). If overchanneling weren't important, than it wouldn't be in the game. Period. All channelers should max out concentration, weavesight, composure (wilders anyway, if they don't want Eliminate Block), and Invert (if you GM lets you). But mostly Concentration and Weavesight. Concentration is for multiweaves and overchanneling. Wilders are better at overchanneling than Initiates.
Some of my reasoning here:

The characters on Call of the Horn are designed to be used together and they are meant to adhear to the "facts" expressed in the books.

Rand/LTT is without a doubt the single most powerful character to ever live in Randland, period. He sets your curve on power. If he is left at 12th or 14th level Wilder that means the most powerful channeler in the world can only use a 7th level weave unaided. It implies the the write-ups of Moir, Nyn, Elayne, etc. are grossly overblown. Additionally, it means that the Forsaken are around 9-13th?

Oh wait, Nyn hast to be able to restore the power? 12th level - she needs to be able to channel a minimum of 8th level weaves to get the 12th level effect (-3 for OC, -1 for all affinities).

So we get a conumdrum when we want the characters to be like the books say they are.

Here are your averages for Rand overchanneling +3 levels - (25% overchannel check failure for +3 levels - average con failure by 19 points - 20% chance of burning out). Ouch....I would guess at the level he is he doesn't push it all that much. [Smile]

You could scale the game down in level and it would actually be more fun but you would have to do drastic rules revisions, especially on weaves. Most of them would have to be dropped in level. Remember, even for some of the basic ones like Bond Warder you have to be 9th level.

I just found it easier to scale up the Monsters, than scale down the entire game.

Oh yeah, Wilders are only better at overchanneling at low levels. The Wilder has a Med Fort save while the Initiates is a Good save - a bonus of +2 for the wilder is quickly negated by Great Fortitude but even if it is an advantge +2 is tiny when the Save is 45+.

Feats:
20 Initiate
15 Wilder

Skill points: The initiate is going to get 2 or 3 more skill points each level (on average), this is going to add up quick.

Hit Points - this is where Wilders make some money.
Wilder 73 hp
Initiate 52 hp

Anyway, the answer is not - just leave Rand as he is and the game works fine. He either has to go up, the game has to scale down, or you add a little note saying "this game is called WoT but hey, we took alot of liberties." Perhaps there is some other way that I haven't thought of?

BTW - there is only one character that is not a Forsaken that I have on my website that is an Epic level character. He is the main character in an Epic story [Big Grin]

I do try to keep them balanced, but true to the books.

I might be able to dig up the level by level comparison on the wilder v. Initiate if anybody wants the DOC?

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From: Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted August 16, 2002 07:27 AM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
Does anyone realize that most of WoT isn't about level 20 characters?

Also, realize that the character write-ups in the back of the book specifically say that they are 'as of' the end of Book 5! There have been 5 (including book 10) more books since that happened! Do you really think Rand is still a level 14 (or whatever) character? [Big Grin]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say he's leveled up since then. Reaching epic levels even. (granted, low 20s, but 20s nonetheless.)

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drothgery
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posted August 16, 2002 08:56 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Freya:
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell:
Does anyone realize that most of WoT isn't about level 20 characters?

Also, realize that the character write-ups in the back of the book specifically say that they are 'as of' the end of Book 5!

Err, they're supposed to be as of the end of book six. That isn't all that important for Rand -- I really don't think he's gained more than a level or two in channeling classes since the end of FoH -- or for characters like Lan, Thom, and Moiriane, who don't significantly increase in power over the novels.

But for Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve, it matters a lot. Egwene becomes Amyrlin in LoC, learned to Travel, and vastly expanded her abilities as a Dreamwalker. Elayne started making ter'angreal between the end of FoH and the start of LoC (which was the last time that a significant amount of time passed off-screen between novels). Nynaeve Healed Logain.

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Cirelle
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posted August 16, 2002 12:51 PM      Profile for Cirelle      Edit/Delete Post
::waves to Avi et al:: Hi!

Thanks everybody! I do think I've got a clearer grip of things now! =) It'll help sometime in the future, when I work up the nerv to GM [Wink]

Cir

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JosephKell
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posted August 16, 2002 01:12 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
WoT isn't D&D, Once you get into books 6-9 Rand doesn't do many new things (until the end of 9 when he cleanses Saidin), think of him as unchallenged, the Forsaken aren't as strong as him in absolute power, he eventually goes from behind attacked and winning to attacking and still winning. I mean damn, Callandor is a power 8 Sa'Angreal! That is more than I expect any of my characters to be able to cast without overchanneling or using an angreal. Then he starts using the Access Key! +10! Also Rand is Ta'veren, A.K.A. Fudge Factor NPC, Take Mat for example, he has 2 bonus "The Dark Ones Own Luck" In the books I would say he should have like 30 bonus feats, but in the game they scaled it down to just 2 bonuses. That Feat is like the Game Saver, if it is all or nothing with this overchannel, and you mess up, you can use the feat to retry, the worst that can happen is that you fail still, and then if you have more than one (like Mat) you can retry the fortitude save.

The Dark One's Own Luck is a second chance feat, it is not super good for everything, but it is flexible enough to be used anywhere a d20 is rolled. Attacks, Saves (especially saves...)

(and if people haven't noticed, I am stubborn and take very strong stances; try not to mistake this for wanting to argue. I will state when I am just whining [Big Grin] )

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Eosin_the_Red
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posted August 16, 2002 02:36 PM      Profile for Eosin_the_Red   Email Eosin_the_Red    Edit/Delete Post
Most of us are stubborn [Big Grin]

Rand does most of his channeling from book 4 or 5 without an angreal. This is the area where he does most of his balefire tossing.

Ta'veren is broken - nice idea & great way to immulate the books without actually having to make up rules. Why not just say it is a freeform game if you want to tack on 30 feats?

d20 is about 20th level spell casters being the pinnicle, it is an intregral assumption to the system. No player, No NPC, No Forsaken can channel more than Rand until introduced by RJ.

Therefore Rand should be 20th level or you have to change the scale of the entire system. Your average Aes Sedai is 9th level (able to channel bond warder without overchanneling), so leaving Rand as a 12th Wilder does not give you much room to play with the other power stats.

I would like to see you build as system that works with Rand at 12th level? Lets see some classes/levels of around 30 or so channeling characters. They need to scale in power as we know they scale in the books (a great reference is Drothgery's Power page (there is a link on Call of the Horn)). I don't think it can be done, but I would love to be proved wrong.

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Xythlord
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posted August 16, 2002 02:57 PM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
From personal experience, building two of the Forsaken characters (Aginor and Ishamael), and using the Forsaken Templates that can be found on the Call of the Horn website.

These character's are powerful, but not unbeatable. I made the character of Ishamael as a 28th level, 20th Initiate/8th Expert. He is almost as powerful as a the modified Rand, although Rand is able to overchannel the hell out of him. With these character's as the upper limit, it still leaves room for players to grow. If they were upper limit of say, 15th. That would indicate that no character in the game can cast a 9th level weave without a circle, angreal, or overchanneling. It also means that if my players manage to make it up to those levels, they are as powerful as the strongest forsaken and the Dragon Reborn. Not an option that I want to worry about in my games. [Dubious]

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Merclaar
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posted August 19, 2002 01:19 AM      Profile for Merclaar      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red:
I might be able to dig up the level by level comparison on the wilder v. Initiate if anybody wants the DOC?

*here* Would like it.

[edit]
How about a comparison about the Slot-Pool-System on the wilder v. initiate? *hope*
[edit end]

cu

[ August 19, 2002, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Merclaar ]

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Merclaar
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posted August 19, 2002 01:20 AM      Profile for Merclaar      Edit/Delete Post


[ August 19, 2002, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Merclaar ]

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Merclaar
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posted August 19, 2002 01:22 AM      Profile for Merclaar      Edit/Delete Post
*deletet*

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theSaj
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posted August 19, 2002 10:02 AM      Profile for theSaj   Email theSaj    Edit/Delete Post
Well,

Initiates and Wilder's each have their advantages...

In the campaign I am in, starting off at level one and gaining experience insanely slow (about 4 months to reach level 3)...a wilder would have had a bit of an advantage over the initiate in being able to overchannel and cast higher level weaves. However, I had all my weaves focused into the healing arts, and had no combat ability. (Wen't 8 rounds with an NPC and only scored 2 pts of damage.) So, I pretty much lost out on any wilder advantage I had. (Let's not forget BLOCK cancelling my ability at many of the most needed times...)

Now on the flip side, an initiate starts off with two extra weaves and a channelling feat. This allows for an extra talent, affinity, or such feats as multi-weave. This is a clear strong benefit the Wilder does not receive until level two. Even then it's 1 per 3 levels for Wilder. 1 per 2 levels initiate.

Furthermore, an initiate usually learns new weaves from a mentor. In the case of our campaign, the initiate recently learned "rend". Finally, the characters in our campaign levelled up to Level 3. I was so happy, I finally got a new weave...(I took fireball, giving me some combat ability finally). However, the initiate in our group (having just learned Rend) multi-classed into a Wilder. Gaining an extra affinity, and an extra talent. So here I sat having gained my "1 new weave" and looking at my fellow player's character having gained "a weave, an affinity, and now she has the ability to overchannel, and cast outside her talents.

So, in truth, initiates are fairly equal to Wilders, and the fact that they can always multi-class into wilders at a whim makes them capable of becoming supa-powerful.

So please...in truth, Wilders have many disadvantages, especially, if they're male and in the early books period.

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From: New Haven, Connecticut | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arr MiHardies
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posted August 19, 2002 10:53 AM      Profile for Arr MiHardies   Email Arr MiHardies    Edit/Delete Post
personally, I would not allow a character to start as in initiate and go into wilder. IMO you are a wilder first, and then the tower picks you up. now, if you started as wilder, you could up that level any time you wanted, even after becoming an initiate. But starting as in initiate and moving to wilder simply doesnt make sense. here you are... able to channel any time you want, and suddenly you develop a block against it? un-uh. if my players ever want wilder, they must start as it, or level into it before leveling into initiate.

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theSaj
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posted August 19, 2002 12:37 PM      Profile for theSaj   Email theSaj    Edit/Delete Post
Well, the reasoning the GM gave was the fact that the entire last chunk of the campaign the initiate in our group was travelling with no mentor and did not learn any weaves. (Mind you, even though I was a Wilder we only had one level up from Level 1 to Level 2 during the whole 3-4 months of campaign.)

So he decided he'd multi-class into Wilder so his character could learn weaves and gain an extra affinity and talent. This was a bummer for me as I am a male channeler and this put me into a weaker position. The fact that all of my character's abilities were healing weaves (of which most all are useless except heal). On top of this the initiate character learned "shield" and "rend" from a Red Ajah.

Me, I levelled up and got to take one weave, yeah, I snagged Fireball. Cause I had NO combat ability. (Worse, in a gaming situation with no control in the matter I had my thumb cut off by a darkfriend..., so the fact that I have next to no combat ability with the additional loss of thumb, so I can't even use bows, two-handed swords, etc. Well, let's just say I sucked at combat. Went 8 rounds and only did two points of damage against a single soldier. I missed the first 7 hits. The GM decided to have the enemy soldier trip and fall cracking his head open fearing the additional 50 rounds it would take for me to kill him at that rate... *LOL*

The GM's made up for it a bit finally, by giving me a fairly powerful ter'angreal that also seems (or at least appears to) reduce the taint.

But it was very frustrating and I had protested the choice of allowing the Initiate to multi-class to wilder.

Although the explanation for the block, is the block appears as a safe-guard during the exploration of weaves and overchannelling.

*shrug*

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