Author
|
Topic: DR armor and
vitality+wound points in WoT |
skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 09, 2003 10:16 PM
Here's my
previous posts, slightly edited:
The armor system in
WoT is one of the only major flaws I see in the game system.
There are plenty of characters who might wear chainmail and
still are just as capable of dodging out of the way. There are
armsmen who are good at avoiding hits even without armor. The
system in the Star Wars game, where armor has a damage
reduction value, is one solution. However this is only
balanced if the system of vitality (avoiding damage) and wound
(physical toughness) points is used. Damage reduction only
reduces damage when dealt to wounds (often a small portion of
the total hp).
I really want to change the armor system
without changing game balance, so I was trying to come up with
a way of having VP/WP without increasing the overall "health".
However, it's difficult to do this without major problems. For
example, I was thinking that all hit points gained are wound
points up to the characters constitution score, and after that
they are vitality. But this penalizes high con characters in
some ways as vitality is slightly better (heals faster,
etc.)
Here's one possibility off the top of my head:
All hit points gained up to 10 + CON modifier go to wounds,
and everything after that goes to vitality. This way a
character's high con bonus makes up for the higher amount of
wound points that need to be gained before he/she can switch
to vitality. Comments?
-------------------- "Death
comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark
One, and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Freya
Member Member # 93267
|
posted April 10, 2003 07:05 AM
We're using
a modified vp/wp and dr system in our WOT game. I don't know
all the specifics, but here's an overview:
vitality/hit points - full hit die from 1st
level - straight average hit die for every level
thereafter (so totals aren't insanely high) - con added
as normal
wound points - con score
armor -
has a slight defense bonus (1 or 2) - gives damage
reduction (leather 1-plate 7) - Damage Reduction only kicks
in when damage goes directly to wounds (vp gone, or
certain weaves affecting wounds directly) - armor
compatibility works as normal
It's worked so far in our
game. The slight defense bonus and promise of dr allows even
the Wanderer to weigh whether or not to wear armor in certain
situations.
The addition of wounds affects healing
slightly. Wounds only heal 1 per night, and every wound you
have deducts a 'plus' from rolls (ie. you have 3 wounds and a
balance skill total of +10, if you needed to balance you could
only roll at +7 until you get healed) Vitality heals as
normal, as does subdual. The Heal weave can heal vitality as
listed, converting it to subdual. Or, it can be used at weave
level d2 + 1/2 channeler levels to heal wounds
directly.
*shrug* Just how our GM chose to do it. ![[Smile]](Wizards_Com Boards DR armor and vitality+wound points in WoT_fichiers/smile.gif)
[ April 10, 2003, 07:06 AM: Message
edited by: Freya
]
-------------------- felicia AKA Freya
Culadin
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 10, 2003 09:13 AM
I like that
system overall, but my one problem is with wound points being
gained up to the characters con. As wound points aren't as
good as vitality, this penalizes high con characters. I like
some other parts of the system though, like -1 to rolls for
each wound.
[ April 10, 2003, 09:15 AM: Message
edited by: skyman
]
-------------------- "Death comes sooner
or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Lord Schpungus
Member Member # 111502
|
posted April 10, 2003 09:45 AM
I don't see
how it penalizes high Con characters. You get all your
vitality points, basically the same as hp, and then you have
more wound points than other characters. It's not a trade-off
between vp and wp. The more wound points you have the harder
it is to kill you. The way I read it you start off with your
Con score in wound points and then gain vitality points like
normal 3rd Ed. hit points. I don't see the penalty in that.
Please enlighten me.
From:
The Global Community | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
|
posted April 10, 2003 12:34 PM
I also fail
to see the disadvantage in the system that Freya discribes.
Look at these two example of level 1 armsmen.
Level 1
Armsman Con 17 Vitality points=10(from class)+3(from Con)=
13 Wound points=17(constitution score) This means it
will take 30 points of total damage to kill this level 1
armsman.
Level 1 Armsman Con 13 Vitality
points=10(from class)+1(from Con)= 11 Wound
points=13(constitution score) This means it will take 24
points of total damage to kill this level 1
armsman.
Where is the disadvantage in having the higher
Constitution? You have more Vitality points and more Wound
points. I'll take the Con 17
anyday.
-------------------- A man who will not die
to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying
The Light
shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of
the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral
Ceremony
From:
Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 10, 2003 03:43 PM
I believe I
misread the post. I thought it said there are the same number
of total hit points, with an amount equal to con going to
wounds BEFORE any goes to vitality. This would penalize high
con characters because they would gain more wound points than
others before they could gain vitality, and wounds aren't as
good (heal slower, give penalty to actions from damage).
However, simply adding wound points equal to con I don't
like either, as this gives low-level characters a lot
more hp total, somewhat unbalancing the game. This is why I
like a system in which 10+con mod of a characters hp go to
wounds, and the rest go to vp, as it doesn't penalize high con
or unbalance the game.
-------------------- "Death
comes sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark
One, and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
|
posted April 10, 2003 04:32 PM
Your right,
it would give 1st level players a lot more hp than in D&D,
but that can be balanced out fairly easily.
First
remember that unlike D&D, WoT has no mechanism for
bringing a character back who has died. Dead is Dead (and I
much prefer this!)
Second, instead of penalizing the WP
by lowering it to the Con + Modifier, and then letting them
level up with VP, you can just let the character roll his 1st
level VP instead of maxing it out. This way, the WP score will
be higher, and as that score is much harder to raise than VP,
will tell out over time and the VP will raise with
level.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted April 10, 2003 05:21 PM
Wound
Points just act as your negative HP, but when there is
critical, instead of doubling or tripling damage you get to
deal direct wound damage, which also cheapens the value of an
axe (why go for a bigger crit multiplier when it doesn't
matter?)
Unless you half the multiplier (so for x3 you
roll a second die and use half that damage, rounding up, for
the extra wounds
damage)
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 10, 2003 05:32 PM
quote:
First
remember that unlike D&D, WoT has no mechanism for
bringing a character back who has died. Dead is Dead (and I
much prefer this!)
I agree! I hate ressurection. It brings on the mindset
"I'll charge in, because it doesn't matter if I
die!"
quote:
Second,
instead of penalizing the WP by lowering it to the Con +
Modifier, and then letting them level up with VP, you can
just let the character roll his 1st level VP instead of
maxing it out.
Thanks Xythlord, I like this idea. I didn't think of
the obvious... It certainly could work.
quote:
...instead of doubling or tripling damage you get to deal
direct wound damage, which also cheapens the value of an axe
(why go for a bigger crit multiplier when it doesn't
matter?) Unless you half the multiplier (so for x3 you
roll a second die and use half that damage, rounding up, for
the extra wounds damage)
This is a conundrum... I have thought about it before.
Maybe the str bonus to damage could be doubled on a crit,
encouraging stronger characters to use hefty weapons like axes
and weaker ones to use swords,
etc.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
|
posted April 10, 2003 06:17 PM
I always
liked the idea of a Crit doing straight damage to the VP and
does damage equal to the Crit Multiplier + Strength Modifier
to the WP. Sneak attacks can do 1 pt per Sneak attack dice +
str modifier, directly to the WP, and weaves do normal damage
to VP then the WP as they are powerful enough as they
are.
[edited the Sneak attack damage]
[
April 10, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Xythlord
]
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
|
posted April 10, 2003 06:26 PM
I just had
another idea, the idea behind a crit is that your strike hit
in a partucularly vulnerable place. The mechanics reflect this
and with D&D magic bonus's, this can make a critical
strike partucurly deadly.
Now, using a WP/VP system the
characters don't have to worry too much about a critical
strike because it just doesnt do enough damage. Say a 5th
level armsmen with average VP and an 18 Con gets struck by a
critical hit with a longsword. He has 50 VP and 18 WP. The
longsword does what 16 pts + str modifier max. What if we add
the str bonus to the weapon damage before multipliying (like a
weapon enhancement bonus in 3E). The damage from a 16 str with
the longsword becomes 22, almost halving his VP.
With
something bigger, say a Hafted Axe the damage grows to 45. Now
he is worrying as one strike halved all his points. Adding
both of these toghether allows the same axe to do a max of 45
pts of damage and 6 WP.....now that armsmen is scared.
The question that needs to be asked is, does Armor
with a DR reduce these critical hits.
[edited the axe
damage.....screwed up the value ]
[ April 10, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message
edited by: Xythlord
]
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Lord Schpungus
Member Member # 111502
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posted April 10, 2003 07:07 PM
I thought
the strength modifier WAS multplied on crits. That's the way
I've always played...
From:
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted April 10, 2003 07:35 PM
it
is.
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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Tzepish
Member Member # 98980
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posted April 10, 2003 08:24 PM
Hi.
You normally don't see me on the WoT boards,
because I don't play it or anything, but I do have some things
to say about VP/WP.
First of all, in terms of the
characters having more total health, there are two ways to
solve this problem. You could add an extra die of damage to
everything that has rolled damage, or (and I like this one)
you can lower the hit dice of everything by one step (d8
characters become d6, etc.). Beginning characters will still
be more powerful than they would be in the HP system, but high
level characters will be weaker. Thus, the characters are
"pushed closer together", I guess, in terms of power level.
And if people can't be ressurected, then maybe it's a good
thing that the first few levels are the ones that are powered
up - since dying at level 1 or 2 is in many ways worse than
dying with a character you have already succeeded in
developing.
As for critical hits bypassing DR, my
understanding is that a critical hit bypasses one level of
defense. So, normally a critical hit will bypass VP and deal
damage straight to WP - DR applies. But if someone with 0 VP
is struck by a critical hit, then critical hit then bypasses
the next level of defense, which would be DR. So, a character
with no VP struck by a critical would not benefit from his
DR.
I'm not sure if I like this, though, since it
lowers the effectiveness of armor. I'd prefer DR always apply.
From:
Everett, Washington, US | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sprain Ogre
Member Member # 104619
|
posted April 11, 2003 12:23 AM
I think how
it goes in Star Wars is thus:
WP=Con VP=hit points
like normal (dice and con mod) (Might have those two mixed
up, but I hope the idea gets across)
A normal hit does
VP damage. Armor does not help in this case. When you run out
of VP, you begin to take WP, in this case, armor does help. If
you are hit by a critical it removes all your remaining VP and
does damage direct to WP, armor reduces this damage as well.
Basically armor helps when ever you are hit by something that
would cause VP damage. Evertime you do anything but whimper in
pain after you've taken WP damage, you need to make a fort
save or pass out, the DC of the save goes up the lower your
WP's get (it's kinda like you're at 0 hp for longer). When you
reach -1 you're out of things, at -10 you're dead.
I
could be wrong, but I don't feal like hunting down my Star
Wars Core book right now, and I think this is how it goes.
Hope that helps.
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 11, 2003 06:19 PM
quote:
If you
are hit by a critical it removes all your remaining VP and
does damage direct to WP
I don't believe criticals remove any VP... they simply
deal damage directly to wounds.
quote:
Evertime
you do anything but whimper in pain after you've taken WP
damage, you need to make a fort save or pass out, the DC of
the save goes up the lower your WP's get (it's kinda like
you're at 0 hp for longer). When you reach -1 you're out of
things, at -10 you're dead.
I don't remember the save (although I haven't looked at
the book in a while) but any wound damage does stun you; this
makes a -2 penalty on all actions.
I like the ideas
people have brought forward so far. With a little more
discussion we can definitely make a viable
system.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
|
posted April 13, 2003 05:29 PM
Than other
way is to have armor take than certain amount of damage before
damage is pass on to you. They use this method in Chivalry
and Sorcery 2nd editon and up. In C&S 2nd ed than plate
cuirass armor can take 2d6+2 point of damage before you do
and they have rules that allow armor to degrade in combat
also.
I than sorry if I mention C&S there was than
lots of bad blood between C&S and D&D for some reason
I donot know, they are both great game.
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Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP:
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 15, 2003 06:08 PM
The problem
with this is that it can be very powerful. Even reducing, say,
4 points of damage each time can make a significant difference
in the survivability of armor-bearing characters as opposed to
quicker ones. And if plate mail only reduces 4 points of
damage (a good number for that system) there aren't too many
degrees of seperation between the armor
types.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Hal
Member Member # 89199
|
posted April 15, 2003 08:16 PM
I think
that the use of VP/WP is a good one. I don't agree that it
unbalances the game at all, especially if remember some of the
related rules from SW.
First giving 1st level PCs their
Con in WP and HP in VP means that first level PCs are
generally more robust. This is a good thing as it increases
the survivability of beginning PCs. Also, having on average 18
or so "HPs" isn't that much especially considering
that:
a) WP heal more slowly (only 1 per day - no
matter what level),
b) WP damage inflict maluses (a PC
suffering WP damage is fatigued (-2 to Str and Dex, cannot
run), and
c) WP damage provides KO oppotunities (a PC
must make a Fort save equal to the WP damage scored in that
round or be KO'd).
Also, at later levels the VP/WP
system actual makes PCs more vulnerable as a lucky critical
can take you down through WP.
Second in a low healing
setting VPs can assist in keeping the PCs in the action
without loosing the grittier feel. WP take ages to recover (1
per day) but VPs recover much more quickly as they are a
measure of energy, luck, karma as well as toughness. In SW, VP
recover at a rate of PC's level per hour. Essentially, this
makes VP damage just knocks and bruises but WP damage is much
more serious. VP/WP makes the PC both more vulnerable and more
robust at the same time.
Thirdly, DR for armour isn't
unbalanced if it only applies to WP damage. As VP doesn't
represent physical damage, armour doesn't stop VP damage.
Armour remains important to saving your life but not a
required item for fighting
The only difficulting in
adopting this system would be to convert armour bonus to DRs.
I recommend a rough conversion of one half armour bonus to
DRs, with light armours covering DR 1 to 2, medium armours DR
2 to 4 and heavy armours 4 to 5. I think more than DR of 5
(someone mentioned 7 above) is too much. In SW most weapons do
2d6 to 2d8 so DRs range up to an over 5. However, in WoT 1d8
is a decent damage roll, and DR of 5 will be effective.
From:
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Hal
Member Member # 89199
|
posted April 15, 2003 09:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Freya: armor - has
a slight defense bonus (1 or 2) - gives damage reduction
(leather 1-plate 7) - Damage Reduction only kicks in when
damage goes directly to wounds (vp gone, or certain
weaves affecting wounds directly) - armor
compatibility works as normal
I like this approach when combined with the adoption of
VP/WP but would change it slightly as follows:
1.
Armour grants an AC bonus (protection of vital areas and
possibility of deflection) and a DR bonus (absorbing damage).
This can be done many ways but here is a
recommendation that is easy and balanced between the different
types of armour. Take the current Armour bonus, retaing an
Armour bonus of +1 for light, +2 for medium and +3 for heavy
and converting the rest into DR.
So Leather Armour
grants a +1 Armour bonus and has a DR of 1, Chainmail a +2
Armour bonus and a DR of 3 and Half Plate a +3 Armour bonus
and a DR of 4. The max DR is 5.
2. The Armour bonus
stacks with the Class bonus to AC. The smaller Armour bonuses
and Class bonus being slower than BAB progressions means that
they can stack without being too unbalanced.
The
Armsman's Armour Capability will need to be reworked. It could
be replaced with a bonus feat or changed to something else
such as being able to get reduce Max Dex and Check Penalties
from armour by 1.
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted April 15, 2003 09:45 PM
I like the
way these are working out, how about if Armor Compatability
works as is, keeping the uniqueness of the Armsman, allowing
the character to stack his Defense with the modified AC bonus
the armor provides (+1 light, +2 meduim, and +3 for heavy).
Those character without Armor Compatability instead subtract
the AC bonus from there Defense instead of adding it. This
makes wearing armor, something that has to be
weighed.
Do I go no armor and try to avoid the blows,
or wear some and hope the armor takes the
damage.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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Hal
Member Member # 89199
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posted April 15, 2003 10:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord: I like the
way these are working out, how about if Armor Compatability
works as is, keeping the uniqueness of the Armsman, allowing
the character to stack his Defense with the modified AC
bonus the armor provides (+1 light, +2 meduim, and +3 for
heavy). Those character without Armor Compatability instead
subtract the AC bonus from there Defense instead of adding
it. This makes wearing armor, something that has to be
weighed.
Do I go no armor and try to avoid the blows,
or wear some and hope the armor takes the
damage.
I am not sure the subtracting armour thing is such a
good idea. The DRs aren't high enough to justify taking the
penalty imposed. If you were going to do this you should
consider granting the armour bonus to only those with armour
compatibility.
After thinking about it here is what I
would do based on what Star Wars Revised did to the Soldier
class. I would make the armour bonuses stack with class bonus
(after all it is sensible that wearing armour always helps
protect you) and change the Armsman class by removing armour
compatibility but increasing their Class bonus to AC
progression.
I admit that armour not stacking bugs me
as does the explanation that the Armsmen's lower Class bonus
to AC is based on the fact they rely on armour. The main
fighting class in WoT should be able to defend himself better
than others with out armour. They benefit from armour as they
are proficient in it where most other classes
aren't.
In summary I would do the following:
1.
Adopt VP/WP with all the extras (KOs, fatigue and healing
times)
2. Armour grants an AC bonus (protection of
vital areas and possibility of deflection) and DR against VP
damage (absorbing damage). Calculate these by taking the
current Armour bonus, retaining an Armour bonus of +1 for
light, +2 for medium and +3 for heavy and converting the rest
into DR.
3. Armour bonus (now reduced) stacks with the
Class bonus to AC.
4. The Armsman's Armour Capability
is removed and their class bonus to AC is increased to equal
the highest such progression (whichever class that is).
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Hal
Member Member # 89199
|
posted April 16, 2003 04:39 PM
Here is
another variation that makes things both simpler and deadlier.
The core of the variation is to increase damage to a level
similar to those in SW and D20 Modern (which use VP/WP or
stacking armour/defence bonuses). This makes weapons more
realistic and deadly (a sword blow can now kill you with one
blow). Armour is not needed to defend yourself from being hit
but is vital when you take damage. A Chainmail's DR of 5 is
very handy.
Low level PCs will use armour where high
level PCs may not need to as they can prevent most
blows.
Remember that PCs start with more HP and VP
heals back very quickly so remain reasonably robust.
1.
Adopt VP/WP:
a) 1st level PCs get Con in WP b) All
PCs receive VP as HP each level with max VP at 1st level c)
A critical deals damage direct to WP. d) If you suffer any
WP damage you are considered fatigued (-2 to Str and Dex,
cannot run or charge). e) After taking WP damage you must
make a Fort Save DC = WP damage suffered in that round or fall
unconscious for 1d4 rounds. f) WP heal at 1 per day and VP
at level per hour. These can be doubled with care
etc.
2. Convert all Armour Bonuses to DRs. So Chainmail
now has a DR of 5. Shield still grant their Armour Bonus to
AC.
3. Double all damage from wepaons and elsewhere
(not bonuses). A long sword now does 2d8 damage, daggers 2d4
and longbow 2d8.
4. The Armsman's Armour Capability is
removed and their class bonus to AC is increased to the best
progression i.e. +4, +5, +5, +6, +6...
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 16, 2003 10:50 PM
I would do
much similar but I think the al'gai should still have the best
defense bonus; they are better at avoiding blows than
wetlanders and can't wear armor. I have been thinking about
progressively higher damage based on level; each class would
have a damage progression, just like BAB or saves. It could
be, for warrior-types, +1d8 or so at 3rd, +2d8 at 5th, etc.
Also some classes could choose a "specialty" weapon type that
increased damage at a higher
rate.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
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