Author
|
Topic: (***Spoilers
from CoT***) New Rules for CoT |
Melriken
Member Member # 48882
|
posted February 22, 2003 06:31 PM
hey guys
why dont you submitt some of this to the Netbook project?
Email it to wotnetbook@madmab.com and let them maybe publish
it?
-------------------- The prior post is in no way
intended to represent the thoughts and/or opinions of the
author. Read at your own risk.
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted February 22, 2003 08:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
quote:
I know
Deflect Arrows isn't in the Wheel of Time book, but if a
GM allowed the feat, would it seem fair if someone used
that feat with a weapon made of Cuendillar, to parry a
Balefire beam like Rand did in The Dragon Reborn?
The real question is how cinematic do you want to
get? There are people in the real world who can block,
break, or even catch arrows - I've seen it done. But
blocking a beam weapon, that's another matter; even the Jedi
can only do it because they possess a limited sort of
precognition. Personally, I'd be inclined to say no, but
this is *definitely* a GM call. And of course the reaction
would be something along the lines of
The normal Reflex save is DC 20 for Deflect Arrows, so
maybe increasing it to DC 30. For deflecting bullets with a
melee weapon I use DC 30, but the item used to block takes
damage instead of you. So I think this could use the same
lines. So someone could use a Steel sword, and just have the
sword burnt from the
pattern...
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
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posted February 23, 2003 11:59 AM
Why not
just make Deflect Arrows work like Expertise.... or, hell,
just make Expertise apply to reflex saves. Just have Bale-Fire
negate this sort of bonus normally, but when you've got a
weapon or armor of Heartstone, you can still get
it.
Make sense,
eh?
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep! Not
just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
Undead Armies foundation, member 000 (Thats right, Not even
I'm a member)
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted February 23, 2003 02:31 PM
Deflect
Arrows is powerful in its own right, allowing Expertise to do
what Deflect Arrows does is unbalanced. As much as I would
love one feat to do both, my conscience keeps yelling in my
ear.
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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Dave Shramek
Member Member # 107902
|
posted February 24, 2003 08:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds: The nine
weeks figure I came up with for a mail shirt was based on
the assumption that you can change a multipart item into
cuendillar without fusing it, if you change one piece at a
time.
But that would fuse it. You would essentially have a
fiew patches of unmovable, fused rings attached together in a
shirt shape. You'd end up with a hole-riddled platemail
shirt.
quote:
I
can see no theoretical reason why this should not be
possible; can anyone else? Remember that Egwene set the
weaves on the harbour chain as a whole, not individual
links.
Yes, she did that because she wanted to fuse the chain
into one unbreakable length, in effect, blockading the White
Tower. The fused cuendillar chain could no longer be lowered
to let supply ships into the Tower.
And as a point of
fact to anyone who looks at the making of cuendillar. There's
a reason no cuendillar has survived to the current age. It's
possible that people who made it weren't powerful in Earth and
Egwene's power in Earth is an exceptional thing, like Nyneave
and Flinn's Healing. I don't think so. She learned how to make
cuendillar from Moggy, at least in part. This means there had
to be anther reason no one did it. Well, weapons wouldn't work
because the weight would diminish and it would be like
attacking people with sharp plastic swords, useless. Armor
would be happy except that I don't think Armor was popular in
the AoL.
We don't know what happens when you take an
iron piece (like a ring in a chain shirt) looped through a
piece of cuendillar and make it cuendillar. Either, the weave
fails because Cuendillar absorbs it, or it fuses with the
existing cuendillar.
I say don't worry about it. It
won't work for arms and armor. A shield might work, but they
are unpopular.
-------------------- As always, I
cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted February 24, 2003 09:53 AM
I don't see
why the weave should be absorbed by the cuendillar. It is
known to absorb any force that is intended to destroy it, but
a weave that turns iron to cuendillar is not absorbed by the
portion that has been changed when the process takes several
sessions. In point of fact, cuendillar does not absorb weaves,
only the destructive force that is created by them. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards (Spoilers from CoT) New Rules for CoT (2)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted February 24, 2003 10:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Shramek: [QUOTE]Originally posted by
Whitewinds: [qb]The nine weeks figure I came up with for
a mail shirt was based on the assumption that you can change
a multipart item into cuendillar without fusing it, if you
change one piece at a time.
But that would fuse it. You would essentially have a
fiew patches of unmovable, fused rings attached together in a
shirt shape. You'd end up with a hole-riddled platemail
shirt.
quote:
I
can see no theoretical reason why this should not be
possible; can anyone else? Remember that Egwene set the
weaves on the harbour chain as a whole, not individual
links.
Yes, she did that because she wanted to fuse the chain
into one unbreakable length, in effect, blockading the White
Tower. The fused cuendillar chain could no longer be lowered
to let supply ships into the Tower.
Exactly my point:
She set the weave on the entire chain at once, treating
it as a single object. Can anyone here see any reason why it
would not be possible to take an object with many parts and
set the weaves on each part individually, one at a time?
Individual gears in a clock, links in a necklace, whatever.
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shadow-dancer
Member Member # 104720
|
posted February 24, 2003 11:26 AM
Random
ramblings on the subject of chain mail.
I've made
chain mail for live roleplay and making it takes a hell of a
long time by hand - each individual link needs to be twisted
open with pliars and joined to the next. My mail was done in a
hexagonal pattern with 6mm and 12mm rings, but a more
realistic type I'd say would be with 6mm or 8mm links tightly
woven together and this takes ages to make (6mm links tightly
woven took my boyfriend an evening to make an approximate
strip of 10" by 4", not including time taken to split the
links first).
Bearing in mind something that would look
like this http://freespace.virgin.net/daniel.w/aa/gfx/gorget.jpg
is about what I'd say chainmail should be woven, imagine that
into a shirt and imagine seperating off each individual link
from the rest to turn it into heartstone - i'd say its a near
impossible task. You couldn't turn links into heartstone
individually and then join them, because you can't bend them
to join them. Best you could do would be 1 in 2 or 1 in 3
links being heartstone in my opinion.
I am of course
assuming here that armour was made in a similar way in
medieval times to how I made mine! I may be
wrong!
Plate armour is a possibility depending on how
heavy the heartstone ends up, but you would have to make each
piece individually and the chain or cord that joins the pieces
would still be normal.
Plates like this http://freespace.virgin.net/daniel.w/aa/gfx/scale_types.jpg
may make better heartstone armour but you would still probably
be stuck with joining them with normal links or trying to turn
links into heartstone while keeping the rest of teh bits off
them!
Just my random thoughts - oh and chainmail making
gives you horrible blisters and green fingers when you use
copper links!!
If anyone is interested - I got the
piccies from here - http://www.armchairarmoury.com/
-------------------- "For
once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and
subtle perfumes, a land of which it is joy of all joys to
dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous . .
." "Tell stories full of valour, of dragons and their
shining deeds..."
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Dave Shramek
Member Member # 107902
|
posted February 24, 2003 11:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre: I don't
see why the weave should be absorbed by the cuendillar. It
is known to absorb any force that is intended to destroy it,
but a weave that turns iron to cuendillar is not absorbed by
the portion that has been changed when the process takes
several sessions. In point of fact, cuendillar does not
absorb weaves, only the destructive force that is created by
them.
Just listing all the possible reasons we don't see
cuendillar armor. I don't think it's even a possibility and I
think the point of this discussion should be more in figuring
out why it doesn't work. If it did work, we'd see it in the
fiction, around AoL times, especially due to battles with
balefire. Thus, we shouldn't allow our players to create
something even the AoL people didn't have. When they ask why,
we need to be able to give them a satisfactory reason for
why.
-------------------- As always, I cower in
ignorance, awaiting a response.
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Dave Shramek
Member Member # 107902
|
posted February 24, 2003 11:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds: Exactly
my point: She set the weave on the entire chain at
once, treating it as a single object. Can anyone here
see any reason why it would not be possible to take an
object with many parts and set the weaves on each part
individually, one at a time? Individual gears in a clock,
links in a necklace, whatever.
Yes, for the same reason the weave the Aes Sedai know
for Healing only Heals everything. The weave itself probably
sees everything as one piece, especially if they are touching.
Especially since the weave is moved along the material to turn
it, I doubt any Aes Sedai has the control to stop the weave at
the point the two pieces touch and then let it go at that.
And, like I said, there's a possibility (strong in my opinion)
that when iron is turned to cuendillar it fuses with the
neighboring cuendillar. This is what allows the Salidar Aes
Sedai to come back to pieces half finished. Otherwise, the
cuendillar might not like being kept in a state of fusion with
the rest of the iron and break at the point of
merger.
-------------------- As always, I cower in
ignorance, awaiting a response.
From:
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted February 24, 2003 02:27 PM
Although I
wouldn't allow PCs or NPCs to have heartstone armor, I believe
that it would be possible. For the folowing
reasons:
Chainmail: As each link is made, it is set
with the proper bends in advance, then turned prior to
attaching the next link to it in the following manner: make
link, change it, make next link, set in place, change it,
repeat until mail is complete. (by the way, with the holes in
chain mail, parts of a balefire attack or other energy based
attack would get through) The last link in a circuit would
have to be linked through both the first and second to last
ring before changing it.
Plate Mail(and any plate
configuration): make iron pieces for the armor, set the plates
onto a leather shirt (or pants, etc) with iron rivets, turn
plate and rivets simultaneously, repeat for next plate until
whole armor is complete. This method should leave very little
in the way of holes, but eventually the leather will dry,
crack and decay rendering the armor useless.
There is
no evidence that you can't produce it in this manner and it is
possible that RJ just didn't think of cuendillar armor or even
weapons. Also, it has never been stated that cuendillar is
lighter than the iron it was made from. It may infact be
heavier or more likely equal in weight. ![[Razz]](Wizards_Com Boards (Spoilers from CoT) New Rules for CoT (2)_fichiers/tongue.gif)
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted February 24, 2003 03:26 PM
One
possible explanation is that even during the AoL, cuendillar
was regarded as very much a luxury material, and when warfare
was being rediscovered, personal armour was all but useless
against things like fireballs, shocklances, poison gas, etc.
so nobody bothered to make something so useless as heartstone
armour. As for weapons, again, why? Shocklances, firethrowers,
etc. don't gain from being made of it, so why bother? Sure,
someone came up with the idea of Power-wrought swords, but
those were almost certainly more status symbols than actual,
practical weapons. Just because Moiraine said they were made
during the War of Power, it does not necessarily follow that
she was right.
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
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posted February 24, 2003 07:06 PM
This is an
excelent explanation of why it would not have been made
without arguing against the possibility of it being made. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards (Spoilers from CoT) New Rules for CoT (2)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted February 24, 2003 07:10 PM
OOPS
[ February 24, 2003, 08:07 PM:
Message edited by: aleshandre
]
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted February 24, 2003 07:13 PM
Boy, I feel
dumb! triple post.
[ February 24, 2003, 08:08
PM: Message edited by: aleshandre
]
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted February 26, 2003 09:24 AM
Let me try
again.
To create cuendillar, you first wrap the object
to be changed in a net of Earth, Air and Fire, then extend
through the net a weave of Fire and Earth. The object within
the net then changes at a rate determined by your strength in
the Power. This is laid out in the novel, quite
clearly.
Now, given the above, can anyone see why it
would not be possible to wrap the net around a single link in
a chain, a single gear in a clock, one part in a blacksmith's
puzzle, or any other discrete piece of a complex object and
thereby change only that one piece?
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Lord Schpungus
Member Member # 111502
|
posted February 26, 2003 02:03 PM
It's
impossible because no matter how wonderful your skill in
weaving, the outer net is going to be around part of the other
pieces of the object. Anything in the outer web is fused
together.
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted February 26, 2003 02:19 PM
I'm not so
sure. If you can use the net to move the piece (and the
example of the fused goblets wolud seem to indicate you can),
then you'd be able to keep it out of contact with other
pieces. It's no different than wrapping the pieces in cloth.
Granted, this wouldn't work for a clock, but even there you
could transmute the parts then assemble them.
[
February 26, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Whitewinds
]
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Dave Shramek
Member Member # 107902
|
posted February 26, 2003 03:42 PM
I'm still
sticking with the fiction on this one. If it were possible or
plausible, we'd see it
somewhere.
-------------------- As always, I cower
in ignorance, awaiting a response.
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Heron_Marked_Blade Member Member
# 110617
|
posted February 26, 2003 05:21 PM
I can't
remember where balefire and cuendillar came into contact in
the book. Could someone give me the book reference people are
basing the assumption that cuendillar deflects balefire
on?
-------------------- "Suravye ninto manshima
taishite."
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted February 26, 2003 07:48 PM
Well, in
the RPG the balefire weaves states that the beam cuts
through everything except cuendillar.
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
|
posted February 26, 2003 08:15 PM
I don't
have my books with me at the moment but wasn't it during the
fight between Nyn and Moghy in the palace of the Panarch in
Tanchico. Some of the Black Sisters came down with the
ter'angreal that shot balefire and ended up scattering a shot
on one of the pieces of cuendillar.
If somebody would
look that up for me, I would appreciate it! I believe it is in
the end of Book 4, The Shadow
Rising.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
From:
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Heron_Marked_Blade Member Member
# 110617
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posted February 26, 2003 08:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord: If somebody
would look that up for me, I would appreciate it! I believe
it is in the end of Book 4, The Shadow
Rising.
Yep, here we go: TSR, p. 912 (paperback)
quote:
...the
cuendillar figures were all that dropped out of that
molten white shaft, bouncing on the floor. The figurines
did not break, of course. It seemed Moghedien was right; not
even balefire could destroy cuendillar.
I hadn't remembered that part...
In light of
this, I don't see why shields couldn't be made into
cuendillar. Especially in the Age of Legends, I don't see why
they might not have come up with this solution, unless the
weapons they used unleashed so much balefire that shields
would have been of no
use...
-------------------- "Suravye ninto manshima
taishite."
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted February 26, 2003 08:44 PM
[
quote:
...the
cuendillar figures were all that dropped out of that
molten white shaft, bouncing on the floor. The figurines
did not break, of course. It seemed Moghedien was right; not
even balefire could destroy cuendillar.
I hadn't remembered that part...
In light of
this, I don't see why shields couldn't be made into
cuendillar. Especially in the Age of Legends, I don't see why
they might not have come up with this solution, unless the
weapons they used unleashed so much balefire that shields
would have been of no use...[/QB][/QUOTE]Remember, balefire
was used on a huge scale, probably deployed by the equivalent
of the laser head from the Honor Harrington novels: A single
burst of the Power, channeled into dozens of one-shot
ter'angreal that ecah release a single beam of balefire. So
every target is getting shot from many, many angles at once,
making shields impractical.
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted February 26, 2003 09:22 PM
Whitewind, I suggest you do your write up and submit
it to the netbook (just for argument's sake; using both
versions for chainmail). Everyone, Rather than
continuing to debate this, lets recognize the differences of
oppinion and if you like it or think it can be done, party on,
if not, no big deal don't use it.
But for cryin' out loud, lets not more
debate.
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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