Author
|
Topic: The Book of
Saidin |
Trollen
Member Member # 134357
|
posted April 10, 2003 11:32 AM
A little
while ago i posted an idea about a book that allows a wilder
to level up as an initiate without a tutor, heres my
suggestion:
Book of Saidin Activation:
Carry Affinities: None Size: Tiny Weight: 3
lbs Occurrence: Unique
During the breaking a few
male aes sedai feared that if saidin ever was cleansed, there
would be no one who knew how to properly controll the source,
so this book was made.
This book grants +5 to
Knowledge(Arcana) and Knowledge(Age of Legends) and allows the
channeler to level up as an initiate.
The book also
contains 10 +1d10 common weaves, 6 +1d4 rare weaves, and 1d2
lost weaves (never balefire)
To learn a weave you must
make a Knowledge(arcana) check with a dc of 30 + weave level.
Only one weave can be learned a week, and the channeler must
spend at least 1 hour a day for 4 days practicing the weave.
Every day roll a consentration check 15 + weave level, if the
roll fails even once, the channeler must wait untill a new
week starts before he can try again. If he succeeds he learns
the weave. You can only learn weaves if you planning on
leveling up as a initiate at the next level.
If the
channeler wants to level up as an initiate, he has to practice
the excercizes writting in the book for at least 1 hour a day
untill he has trained for a total of 1 hour/level he wants to
level up to. So if a channeler wants to level up to level 6,
he must study the book for 1*6=6 hours. Note that the level is
the total level, not the intitiate level. So a level 4/5
wilder/initiate and a level 8/1 wilder/initiate would both
have to study for 10 hours.
(I edited this post to add
the changes suggested below) What do you guys
think?
[ April 10, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message
edited by: Trollen ]
From:
Bergen, Norway | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
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posted April 10, 2003 12:54 PM
First of
all, I don't think that I would ever have a WoT spellbook in
my world at all. It just don't feel right in the atmosphere of
schools like the White tower and the Black tower where you
have to be trained to be an initiate. But if you are just set
on putting this in your campaign you should consider changing
the following things.
1) The name doesn't work for me a
little too blah. I would change the name to something like The
Book of Saidin.
2) You list the Occurrence as Unique,
but in the description you say that the Aes sedai made "books"
plural. So which is it. Only one book then it is unique. If
there are even a couple it should be Rare.
3) I think
this is just a typo. When listing the weaves contained in any
given Book, you say,"The book also contains 10 +1d10 common
weaves, 6 +1d4 rare weaves, and 1d2 rare weaves (never
balefire)." Don't you mean to say 1d2 lost weaves. I can
understand why they wouldn't put balefire in there as they all
decided to quit using it during the War of Power. I think that
was a good touch.
I guess that it sounds okay. You
would probably have to playtest it to make sure that you made
it sufficiently hard to learn a weave. I would also make the
wilder make some kind of a roll to start going up as an
initiate. The point is, studying this book should take up a
major part of their life. The one benifit of being a wilder is
not being tied to a tradition. All other initiates are tightly
controlled. They have certain rules to stick to. It defines
who they are. For this individual to be able to advance as an
initiate his study should be so great that it to permeates his
being just like an Accepted or Dedicated.
Don't let
this player have the best of both
worlds.
-------------------- A man who will not die
to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying
The Light
shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of
the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral
Ceremony
From:
Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
|
posted April 10, 2003 01:49 PM
I generally
agree with Sharn, but I wanted to add that if I for some
reason allowed this in my game, I definitely wouldn't grant
the character the new Affinity and Talent that normally comes
with this transition. That's a specific benefit of the
personal training they receive, to my
mind.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
From:
The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001 |
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Trollen
Member Member # 134357
|
posted April 10, 2003 02:00 PM
Ok, heres
the new version
Book of Saidin Activation:
Carry Affinities: None Size: Tiny Weight: 3
lbs Occurrence: Unique
During the breaking a few
male aes sedai feared that if saidin ever was cleansed, there
would be no one who knew how to properly controll the source,
so this book was made.
This book grants +5 to
Knowledge(Arcana) and Knowledge(Age of Legends) and allows the
channeler to level up as an initiate.
The book also
contains 10 +1d10 common weaves, 6 +1d4 rare weaves, and 1d2
lost weaves (never balefire)
To learn a weave you must
make a Knowledge(arcana) check with a dc of 30 + weave level.
Only one weave can be learned a week, and the channeler must
spend at least 1 hour a day for 4 days practicing the weave.
Every day roll a consentration check 15 + weave level, if the
roll fails even once, the channeler must wait untill a new
week starts before he can try again. If he succeeds he learns
the weave. You can only learn weaves if you planning on
leveling up as a initiate at the next level.
If the
channeler wants to level up as an initiate, he has to practice
the excercizes writting in the book for at least 1 hour a day
untill he has trained for a total of 1 hour/level he wants to
level up to. So if a channeler wants to level up to level 6,
he must study the book for 1*6=6 hours. Note that the level is
the total level, not the intitiate level. So a level 4/5
wilder/initiate and a level 8/1 wilder/initiate would both
have to study for 10 hours.
From:
Bergen, Norway | Registered: Apr 2003
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 10, 2003 03:52 PM
This is
definitely a powerful item, and there should be a major aspect
of the plot worked around it. Also since it was written by men
just beginning to go mad, there could be some strange things
in there. You could make the character test against his
madness to avoid falling into delusions or something like
that, and make him do this every level. Also I think the time
required for training should be much longer. It takes a long
time to train with a tutor, and it should take even longer
with a book. Very cool
idea.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted April 10, 2003 03:54 PM
Okay, Well
first I think that to allow a channeler to level up as an
Initiate is way!!!! too much. Certainly much more than
a book could provide, considering that an Initaite gains quite
a few feats compared to the Wilder because it is assumed that
within the structured environment, she is able to absorb more
from her teachers and peers.
While I do hold to the
idea of a channeler being able to learn a weave from a
discription, as we have several examples from the book.
Moraine with Balefire (it is presumed that she learned from
reading some ancient text), Damer Flinn with Healing Stilling
(from Logain's discription), and finally Egwene from the
discription of Moghy) although the last two are discriptions
rather than reading, at least with Damer he was trying to
duplicate something from saidar.
I like the mechanic
that you have set up for it, but it seems to me that there are
a great many weaves contained within one book, when it should
probably contain 1 or 2 at most. The rarity of the weave
should have less to do with the amount of paper it takes up as
the complexity would.
Now I might be jumping to
conclusions here, but allowing a channeler to claim the
Initiate class without having to obey strictures set forth by
that tradition smacks of munchkinism. The power of the
Initiate class is balanced by the control over which that
tradition has over you. Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Atha'an Mier,
Ash'aman.....these all place rules over what a channeler is
allowed to do. While a Wilder gains less in the way of feats
and eventually weaves, they are free to as they please. This
is one of the strengths of this class, and to take that away
is to take away the uniqueness of that
class.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
From:
Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002 |
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
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posted April 10, 2003 04:06 PM
Xythlord
makes the point that I wanted much better than I did. Why
wouldn't everyone go try to get an Aes sedai to bond them as a
Warder. I mean, heck, you get all those abilities and access
to one of the best PrCs in existance. Well not everyone wants
to be bonded to an Aes sedai. Some people want to be free
spirits. Mat for instance. Heck most people don't want to have
an Aes sedai tell them what to do their whole (long) life. The
same case with initiates. In all cases they are bound to a
certain set of rules and traditions that they must keep or be
removed from their tradition. Wilders are free to do as they
please. That is a very strong benefit. What you are creating
is a super channeler. All the benefits of an initiate's
training with none of the restrictions. Initiates don't just
practice for a couple of hours a day. They LIVE their
practice. They have been practicing for years before reaching
Initiate level 1. For initiates channeling isn't something
that they can do, it IS WHO they ARE. That is the major
distinction between an initiate and a wilder and that is the
reason that they have access to more weaves and more bonus
channeling feats.
-------------------- A man who
will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran
Saying
The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter
you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. -
Shienaran Funeral Ceremony
From:
Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 10, 2003 05:22 PM
This is all
true, but I think certain disadvantages could be added to the
use of the book to make it work. It is a powerful item, and
many enemies might hunt the bearer, taking away his freedom to
travel (except in disguise). Don't give up on an idea with
such plot possibilities just
yet.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted April 10, 2003 05:28 PM
Ewww
Channeling Spellbook!
-------------------- Instant
Message me @ JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
California | Registered: Aug 2002 |
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted April 11, 2003 09:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell: Ewww
Channeling Spellbook!
Actually, this is a bit of a sore point with me: People
who insist that channeling is totally unlike anything else and
can never be learned by experimentation and practice, never
written down, etc. Channeling is a skill, like any other. You
can learn woodworking from books, you can learn weaving from
books, you can even, to a degree, learn gymnastics and martial
arts from books, so why not channeling?
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Steve Russell
Member Member # 130579
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posted April 11, 2003 09:39 AM
Ok im
finally going to jump in on this. I agree with Xythlord (big
suprise there) This is pure I don't want to deal with the
problems of the setting. (yes it is a bummer you have to wait
till book 6 to be able to be an initiate, Tough! the wheel
weave as the wheel wills)
But since you are going to
use it anyway. please create some type of theme appropriate to
the setting for this book. The Red Ajah has been hunting for
this book for 3000 years and are attempting to destroy it.
Wise Ones, Windfinder will hand it over. How did the book
survive for 3000 years "keeping" Make the book difficult to
hide. maybe 4' by 4' since it probably was written in a
stedding the book would be Ogier size. Maybe the Ogier have it
in a stedding being the only people who would not destroy the
book but they guard it closely and would hunt down any who
stole it.
Whitewinds said
quote:
Martial
Arts from books
First I study 2 different forms of martial arts Jujitsu
and Wing Chun (and a little tang soo do) Have been since I was
12 let me tell you a little something Martial Arts is
intuative not technical you can read all the books you want
and practice the technique but if you don't get in a real
fight with a real opponent you never learn what techniques
actually work and what techniques work for you (some never
will work for you)
Because the book never tells you the
guy your fighting is not only bigger faster and stronger but
he knows how to fight too.
The problem with learning
from a book rather than from experiance is that you know how
to do it but you don't do it.
Actually when I really
think about it this is how i equate the one power. if you try
to think about it in logical terms it does not work. The One
power is more intuative than
learned.
-------------------- I have a reading
lesson with the Lady Riselle. She lets me rest my head on her
bosom while she reads to me. -Olver
Please visit and
review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace
Book.
From:
dayton ohio usa | Registered: Mar 2003
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted April 11, 2003 10:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Russell: Whitewinds said
quote:
Martial Arts from books
First I study 2 different forms of martial arts
Jujitsu and Wing Chun (and a little tang soo do) Have been
since I was 12 let me tell you a little something Martial
Arts is intuative not technical you can read all the books
you want and practice the technique but if you don't get in
a real fight with a real opponent you never learn what
techniques actually work and what techniques work for you
(some never will work for you)
I agree entirely, that's why I said "to a degree."
Though I personally view channeling as closer to woodworking
or needlecraft: You have instructions, you have materials, you
have tools, if you take the time and effort to study and
practice you will eventually acquire the skills. Granted,
channeling's a bit more dangerous, but the principle remains.
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 11, 2003 06:31 PM
quote:
This is
pure I don't want to deal with the problems of the setting.
I don't know what the motivation for the book was, but
I think it doesn't have to be used as a tool to beat the
setting. The storyline aspects you mentioned and many others
can make this a useful story device, and not too
overbalancing. In fact if the game doesn't take place during
the books the Book of Saidin could be used to start an new
male channeler tradition, which could be a cool
story.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted April 11, 2003 07:26 PM
Except for
the fact that their has not been a tradition of channelers
besides the Ashaman since the breaking. They are feared and
hounded when they do show up and eventually caught and
gentled. The only ones who have any kind of following have
been the False Dragons.
Furthermore, think back to
Mazrim Taim's reaction when Rand told him that some of these
men he had at the Farm wanted to become
channelers.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
From:
Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002 |
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 12, 2003 10:58 AM
I tend to
play games either in mirror worlds or many Ages ago when I'm
not playing in the book timeline. This allows for almost any
variation on the
setting.
-------------------- "Death comes sooner or
later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One, and only
fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 13, 2003 04:54 AM
Book's
where written in the past to pass down knowldge of skill's,
history's and etc. The book can have than weave cast on it
that can enable it to last than long time. I would also
allow it to make you than first level initiate only.
From: El
Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP:
Logged
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galadgawyn
Member Member # 126713
|
posted April 15, 2003 05:42 AM
First I
think it is a cool idea. I wouldn't let characters use it for
the most part but, I can see several scenarios where it would
work. For example some of the False Dragons were really
powerful. How did they get that way with no one to teach them?
maybe one of them had this book. You could easily reduce
the power (as several have suggested) but, in the right
context I don't think that is neccesary. As it is I think it
is very powerful, maybe as much as the Bowl of the Winds, and
I think you need to treat it that way. The Bowl was hard to
find and there were a lot of people trying to get it and
willing to kill for it (forsaken sent gholam etc.). As far as
learning goes, I think it is a mix between logic and intuition
which varies from channeler to channeler. Egwene seems to be
more methodical and able to figure things out where as Rand is
not really sure what he is channeling half the time. That
doesn't really matter though because I assume this is a
ter'angreal (which explains how it survives 3000 yrs.) and we
have a couple examples in the books of ter'angreals granting
knowledge - Rand in the pillars in Rhuidhean and Mat gaining
memories (along with skills and abilities) from the Aelfinn.
So maybe this book is not just words on a page but, implants
memories of the previous men channeling. Finally I think
that maybe you should have to channel into it to activate it.
The Male Aes Sedai probably knew that if certain people
(female channelers) got their hands on it, it would be
destroyed. To protect it, this book normally looks like a book
about cooking, history, plants, whatever and only when the
activating weave is channeled does it transform to the Book of
Saidan. As added protection, only after a male channeler holds
the book for a certain amount of time does the book impart the
knowledge of how to activate it. Also the learning would be a
combination of the memories and the writing and, since it
would be in the Old Tongue that would be another challenge for
most male channelers. Those are my ideas, hope they help.
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Vardelith
Member Member # 123267
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posted April 15, 2003 09:45 AM
I really
like the ideas that galadgawyn put forth for making it fit the
setting more!
To add to that I would maybe actually
make the book a part of a pair or set. This book could be the
introduction! Reduce the amount of knowledge that it imparts
to maybe just a couple of levels, and only with a person
studying it for quite some time.
I like the idea of
having it give the person memories from the creator of the
book as a way of imparting the knowledge on how to use the One
Power, due to the fact that the creator was probably going mad
at the time his memories could be tainted as well, the user of
the book would have to make extra madness checks whenever a
memory was imparted.
I think it should play out like
the jedi holocron's from Starwars. THey only impart knowledge
fitting to the level of the player, if your not strong enough,
you can't access all of the holocron. I think this book should
also be like that, a player can't just absorb the entire
knowledge set in the book at one time with a couple of GOOD
rolls. They would have to hang onto the book (no small feat)
long enough to level up with it!
Actually, why not
have the book impart knowledge only when the player DOES level
up! make it so that the player gains a small chunk of
experience from it's use at the beginning of each level, and
have it impart a random skill, feat or weave, based on how
long the player has had the book. If the player already has
what is given they wait till next level. The knowledge granted
is ALWAYS a channeling skill, feat or weave. And don't forget,
have the player role VS madness. hehe!
You could even
make it a book usable by both men and woman, that would make
it very well sought after. And Super Dangerous to keep on you!
And I agree, it should be bigger, so making it harder to hide!
not 4x4 like suggested earlier, but big! or at least heavy!
I know my thoughts are a little fragmented, but
I think someone will get the gist of it! I know as this item evolves here in this thread, I
get more and more ideas on how to torture my group with it!
HEHE!
Vardelith
From:
Medicine Hat, Alberta | Registered: Jan 2003
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Sharn_Penndroen Member Member
# 82230
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posted April 15, 2003 10:17 AM
Fine it is
a ter'angreal that grants channeler feats and skills and
weaves. I still don't think that the person should be allowed
to level up as an initiate. What tradition would this person
belong to? That is one of the defining characteristics of an
initiate. I think that the suggestions made would fix the
problem. If the reason that a person wishes to take levels in
initiate, I'm assuming that they are doing it for the bonus
channeling feats. If they are getting random channeling feats
upon leveling up then that should give them some of what they
want. I think that either way you go, be it memory transfer,
or knowledge from learned from writing, it should NOT allow
the person to go up as initiate.
Rand al'Thor has the
memories of Lews Therin. I sincerly doubt that Lews was a
wilder, but Rand certainly is. Rand doesn't go up as an
initiate because he has Lews's memories. Why? Because he
doesn't belong to a channeling
tradition.
-------------------- A man who will not
die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying
The
Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last
embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral
Ceremony
From:
Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002
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skyman
Member Member # 133451
|
posted April 15, 2003 06:26 PM
quote:
Rand
al'Thor has the memories of Lews Therin. I sincerly doubt
that Lews was a wilder, but Rand certainly is. Rand doesn't
go up as an initiate because he has Lews's memories. Why?
Because the memories are random, unclear, and tainted
with madness. I think the book could mean the ressurection
of an ancient channeling tradition. Looking outside of game
mechanics, I see no problem with a plot built around something
like this, and the gameplay can be balanced with ideas
presented above.
-------------------- "Death comes
sooner or later to everyone unless they serve the Dark One,
and only fools are willing to pay that price." -Lan
Mandragoran
From:
Olympia, WA | Registered: Mar 2003 |
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galadgawyn
Member Member # 126713
|
posted April 17, 2003 09:53 AM
Because
this book was specifically designed for teaching, I would
think that the memories would be more structured like the Aiel
ones. As Trollen says in the item write-up, the male Aes Sedai
made this to teach how to properly controll the source and,
from their viewpoint in the Age of Legends this could include
codes of conduct, behavior, methods, laws, etc. and the
characters would have to study that. I don't think there is a
way to force them to follow that but, I think there would be
strong motivation to after studying it so much. While they
don't have all the restrictions of the initiate, they also
don't have all the benefits like the power, support, and
prestige of the White Tower, Wise Ones, etc. behind them.
Besides what's the point of fighting for and gaining a
powerful item if you don't get a nice
advantage?
Personally, I would greatly increase the
amount of time you had to study and practice the exercises,
especially for the first level of initiate, because it seems
the hardest part is breaking into the new way of thinking and
acting. Because they are still somewhat on their own, you
could restrict the leveling up as initiate to one level for
every level of wilder.
I am not sure how the checks
for learning a weave work. You have to succeed with a
knowledge check and then a concentration check? at the same
time? a new knowledge check for each week? I would like a
little clarification on that. Also it seems the dc for
knowledge is too high (should be 20 + weave) and the
concentration too low - maybe 15 + weave for common, + 2x
weave for rare, and 3x weave for lost.
I also like the
idea of madness being involved somehow like Callandor having
the flaw.
If you don't want to allow them to gain
initiate levels thats fine but, I think Mat becoming an expert
rider, fighter, and commander which would normally take a lot
of time, training, and practice shows its possible. You don't
let just any character walk through the twisted red doorways
but, in the right context it can make for a very cool story
a.k.a. Robert Jordan's.
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