my profile | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Wizards.Com Boards   » Wheel of Time   » Seanchan Damane Test (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Seanchan Damane Test
Dortamur
Member
Member # 63897



posted January 25, 2003 05:17 AM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
Any ideas as to what the test is the Seanchan use to identify Marath'damane? It can't be just whacking on an a'dam on the people to test - otherwise Sul'dam's would fail that test. So they must have some other way of testing and identifying a channeler with the spark.
Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
Member
Member # 4474


posted January 25, 2003 06:11 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
I suspect it is a matter of just slaping an adam on someone. The adam only works on someone who can channel. When they are young, the sul'dam can't channel. They have the potential to learn but can't actually do it on their own like the marath'damane. It is only after they have been trained as sul'dam that they can actually channel and therefore become vulnerable to the adam's effects (at which point putting an adam on one of them is unthinkable).
From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dortamur
Member
Member # 63897



posted January 25, 2003 07:12 AM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
But in that respect, how is a pre-mature Wilder any different? ie; Someone who's born with the spark versus someone who can develop the ability later. You can't force someone with the spark to channel if they have no idea how to. Not without considerable training. Hence, to me, it sounds like there is some other test to say who is a Channeler and who is not.

Also, if they did use an a'dam, then I'm sure there'd have to be some instances of a Sul'dam trying to move with it on and suffering nausea, proving they're a marath'damane...

Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xythlord
Member
Member # 70903



posted January 25, 2003 08:19 AM      Profile for Xythlord   Email Xythlord    Edit/Delete Post
Theres the thing, the term wilder is used to describe somebody who is born with the ability to channel and will do so whether they want to learn how to or not -and this is how the "block" is learned, a way to help control the ability to channel without training....which is why 4 out of 5 wilders die before learning some measure of control (the block). While a Initiate is somebody who, with training may learn how to channel...but it has to be trained in them.

When an a'dam is placed upon a woman, if she has the inborn ability then it will activate and she is damane. A woman with the ability to learn, i.e. -Initiate may become Sul'dam as they have the necessary awareness of the Damane through the a'dam. Most who put on the a'dam cannot sense the Damane through it. But, once that Initiate is trained to touch the source -or once she has trained with a Damane long enough, they can then be harnessed to the a'dam.

Hope that helps explain it.

--------------------
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

From: Denver, Co | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
wierdbob
Member
Member # 86937



posted January 25, 2003 09:23 AM      Profile for wierdbob      Edit/Delete Post
We have seen how Aes Sedai test women who have the spark inborn (wilders) when Moiraine first meets Nynave and Egwene she knows that Nynave could channel but didn't realise it and that Egwene was very close to bieng able to. What we haven't seen is how Aes Sedai check to see if a woman can learn.

I would imagine that the Seanchan test is the same except they don't realise that the Suldam test will show women that can learn.

Also there is never any mention that the Adam only works on women who have channeled in the novels. the only mention about the tests is tat all Seanchan women over a certain age are tested once a year.

[ January 25, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: wierdbob ]

--------------------
Wierdbob
Sensei of the Strange

Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
aleshandre
Member
Member # 27286



posted January 25, 2003 09:53 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
They test for marath damane the same way that the AS identify others who can channel. They walk a damane around and if she can sense the ability in a woman, the woman has failed the test and must be leashed. If they placed an adam on any suldam, the suldam would be held. To test for suldam, they do it mush the same way as Mistress Satelle Anan in the cellar. They put the bracelet on and see if they can feel the damane on the other end. [Wink]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fahkrin
Member
Member # 89533



posted January 25, 2003 04:24 PM      Profile for Fahkrin   Email Fahkrin    Edit/Delete Post
Either way, the scary thing is how many damene and suldam there are, compared to the Westland channelers. Also, when you look at how many people are showing up for the Asha'man and Aes Sedai when they start looking for recruits.....WOW! It seems like 1% of the population (no numbers, only a rough feel here) can either channel or learn to channel.

At that level, almost everyone would know someone that could channel.

Wonder if there is some sort of "damene underground?" In an empire the size of Seanchan it would still be impossible to test every single woman for either damene or sul'dam. Heck the US is pretty well organized and vaccinations miss a percentage of the population...

From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
Member
Member # 99447


posted January 25, 2003 04:28 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't be surprised if many of the damane went to go see if they were sul'dam but were first checked to see if they were damane...

Imagine "Mommy, I want to be a Sul'dam when I grow up!" Next week "I want my mommy!" because the leash is on...

--------------------
Instant Message me @ JonERPG on the AIMer

Visit AielManSpear

-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
-If your character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook...
-If you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four charges left...
-If the God of Destiny asks you what will have next...
...you might be a Munchkin.

From: California | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dortamur
Member
Member # 63897



posted January 25, 2003 06:19 PM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
I'm still not convinced the test involves an a'dam. There would be too many opportunities for the ugly secret about Sul'dam to come out.

Also, on the sensing of the ability, I get the impression that is not sensing someone who has the spark, but sensing someone who has channeled.

Nynaeve had the spark, and had already channeled - Moiraine could sense she had the power.

Egwene had the spark, but hadn't really channeled. Moiraine couldn't sense the power (with any confidence). She had suspicions, so maybe she felt something, but not enough to say with any confidence that "Hey, you're marath'damane".

Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
aleshandre
Member
Member # 27286



posted January 25, 2003 08:41 PM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
In tEotW, Moirane told Egwene that women who can channel can sense other women who can channel and women who are born with the spark, who are near their first touching and that it was the reason that she first thought Egwene was the Wisdom instead of Nyneve. She sensed the spark about to manifest in Egwene, and the ability already manifest in Nyneve. [Wink]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dortamur
Member
Member # 63897



posted January 25, 2003 09:02 PM      Profile for Dortamur      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmm. Still, a "feeling" is not evidence, and I don't think the Seanchan would make someone damane on a feeling...

Thinking on the testing using an a'dam, maybe it works like this:

To test for a damane, stick the a'dam collar on. If the sul'dam doing the test feels the damane, then they're a damane. ie; A suldam, that is, someone with the ability to learn, but without the spark, shows NO response to the a'dam collar.

However, a sul'dam through her training and experience triggers that spark. So any trained sul'dam now has the spark, which is why sul'dam "develop an affinity" after a few years, such as being able to tell when a damane channels, even without wearing the a'dam bracelet. So, putting the collar on a NEW sul'dam would do nothing...

This fits with re-reading stuff near the end of book 2, which implies the test is a'dam based. The clarification being that a trained sul'dam develops the spark, even though they never develop the ability to channel themselves.

Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Melriken
Member
Member # 48882



posted January 25, 2003 09:26 PM      Profile for Melriken   Email Melriken    Edit/Delete Post
I cant look it up right now, but There are Damane at the exits to any town under Seanchan control testing everyone to see if they are a Marath'Damane or not, iirc the test is just the Damane sitting there watching people walk out (thus the 'feeling', which by the way is more like the way you can 'feel' which way is down, not how you 'feel' that someone isnt trust worthy).

While I belive that the Sul'dam are tested by simply placing the wrist band on a girl and seeing if she can feel the Damane on the other end.

as already mentioned the Damane test will only show someone who can actually channel, or who has the spark and is VERY close to actually channeling.
now in an empire where no one is trained to channel, then only those with the spark will actually channel, and thus only those with the spark will 'fail' the Damane Test.

Sul'dam are not trying to learn, and thus take quite a long time to actually learn to channel, and dont realize they can (the only channeling they do is to control the circle created by the Adam direcly instead of telling the Damane what to do) but by that point no one is testing them for a Damane anymore (and the ability is so week in even the strongest that the Damane dont notice it (and most likely wouldnt be belived if they did)

I dont know about it all though, you would have thought that someone would have noticed by now that Sul'dam can channel. But then the first Sul'dam (the Aes Sedai who made the first Adam (named in book 2)) was a woman who could channel, so it is entirely possible that there are those who know, and it is actively covered up by people in power. *shrug* who can understand the ways of the Seanchan

--------------------
The prior post is in no way intended to represent the thoughts and/or opinions of the author. Read at your own risk.

Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
aleshandre
Member
Member # 27286



posted January 26, 2003 09:55 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Alright, Renna, Seta and what's her bucket (the 3rd suldam that helped Mat get the Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar), each were tested annually to see if they were marath damane, because sometimes a suldam becomes marath damane. Each passed the test each time by failing, however; each one was held by an adam. Every woman with the potential to channel, whether they have manifested or not , or learned or not, can be held by the adam. This is why it would be so devastating to the Seanchan Empire to discover the truth. There is no way that any woman - suldam or marath damane would ever pass the test if the collar was placed on their neck.

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
jwanderer5
Member
Member # 113100



posted January 28, 2003 06:42 AM      Profile for jwanderer5   Email jwanderer5    Edit/Delete Post
I'm not so sure that there would be a damane underground. The Senchen see someone who frees damane in the same light as a child molester or rapist.
From: CA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Daniel Holm
Member
Member # 85627


posted January 28, 2003 07:15 AM      Profile for Daniel Holm   Email Daniel Holm    Edit/Delete Post
It makes no sense if the a'dam doesn't work on a sul'dam. How the heck would they feel the damane, then?
No, it makes no sense. It must be a case of which the damane feels a sparker or one close to touching saidar the first time.
Remember Taim's test for men who can channel?
Damer Flinn is one who can learn. I suppose Aes Sedai would test for the talent the same way.
Maybe the Seanchan has a similar test... A damane might be capable of seeing whether or not a woman can be made sul'dam.

--------------------
"Sa souvraya niende misain ye - I am lost in my own mind."
"Dovie'andi se tovia sagain - It's time to roll the dice."
"Sene sovya caba'donde ain dovienya - Luck is a horse to ride like any other."
- Matrim Cauthon,
General of the Band of the Red Hand, Shen an Calhar

Save the Core Paladin Foundation Member 0000037

From: Denmark | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
Member
Member # 34606


posted January 28, 2003 07:32 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Holm:
It makes no sense if the a'dam doesn't work on a sul'dam.

The Seanchan test works exactly as everyone above has described it. Egwene tells us about it in tGH when she is rescued. It's all right there. I suggest you reread the relevant section.

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
Member
Member # 136464


posted April 13, 2003 05:02 PM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
Alright, Renna, Seta and what's her bucket (the 3rd suldam that helped Mat get the Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar), each were tested annually to see if they were marath damane, because sometimes a suldam becomes marath damane. Each passed the test each time by failing, however; each one was held by an adam. Every woman with the potential to channel, whether they have manifested or not , or learned or not, can be held by the adam. This is why it would be so devastating to the Seanchan Empire to discover the truth. There is no way that any woman - suldam or marath damane would ever pass the test if the collar was placed on their neck.

Do you think that any suldam will allow any suldam to fail the test as it can mean the end of all suldam this is than example of who doing the testing matter.

I think that the A'Dam is make so to allow the Suldam pass the test unless she past than certain point where she is now than damane. Also it might have than channeler who have the spark to pass the test and the test for Suldam so the channeler can be than Suldam.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Whitewinds
Member
Member # 124732



posted April 13, 2003 10:38 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
I've noticed a lot of careless thinking in this thread, so let's make a few things explicit:

1) Some women are born with the ability to channel.
2) Some women can acquire the ability to channel with suitable training.
3) Most women (97 - 98 percent) are completey unable to channel.

From these known facts, we can derive four cases:

If an an a'dam's collar is placed on the neck of a woman who was born with the ability, or has acquired it through training, the sul'dam will feel that ability. Such a woman is immediately made damane.

If the collar is placed on the neck of a woman who was *not* born with the ability, and has *not* acquired it through training, them the sul'dam will sense nothing - there's nothing there to sense.

A woman who can acquire the ability but has received no training, or was born with it but has not yet manifested it, can put on the bracelet and control the damane. This makes her a sul'dam.

A woman who was not born with it, and cannot acquire it, can put on the bracelet, and the damane will fall to the ground in screaming agony. She cannot become a sul'dam.

From these four cases, we can reason that the test proceeds this way: Each girl is tested by having the a'dam placed on her neck - by force, if necessary. Those who do not have an active ability to channel may, at their option, put on the bracelet, and if the damane doesn't fall to ground in screaming agony, she's a sul'dam. Though she's still tested until she's past the age of manifestation, as she could have been born with the ability, but not manifested it. This system ensures that there will be no false nagatives - no woman who has the ability and is tested will fail to show up.

Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
Member
Member # 136464


posted April 14, 2003 02:25 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
I've noticed a lot of careless thinking in this thread, so let's make a few things explicit:

1) Some women are born with the ability to channel.
2) Some women can acquire the ability to channel with suitable training.
3) Most women (97 - 98 percent) are completey unable to channel.

From these known facts, we can derive four cases:

If an an a'dam's collar is placed on the neck of a woman who was born with the ability, or has acquired it through training, the sul'dam will feel that ability. Such a woman is immediately made damane.

If the collar is placed on the neck of a woman who was *not* born with the ability, and has *not* acquired it through training, them the sul'dam will sense nothing - there's nothing there to sense.

A woman who can acquire the ability but has received no training, or was born with it but has not yet manifested it, can put on the bracelet and control the damane. This makes her a sul'dam.

A woman who was not born with it, and cannot acquire it, can put on the bracelet, and the damane will fall to the ground in screaming agony. She cannot become a sul'dam.

From these four cases, we can reason that the test proceeds this way: Each girl is tested by having the a'dam placed on her neck - by force, if necessary. Those who do not have an active ability to channel may, at their option, put on the bracelet, and if the damane doesn't fall to ground in screaming agony, she's a sul'dam. Though she's still tested until she's past the age of manifestation, as she could have been born with the ability, but not manifested it. This system ensures that there will be no false nagatives - no woman who has the ability and is tested will fail to show up.

The roleplaying book is petty vargo about what than
A'dam can do or not do. I also believe that tham GM
doesnot have to follow Robert Jordan books that closely and blinded. I than reading his book now.

The comment about who doing the test is very inportant from than legal stand point local, national and international. USA is thinking about form they own inspecting team to find WMD in Iraq, even it they say we found some the rest of the world inclureing me willnot believe then as it wasnot done by the UN Weapon Inspection team. Since
it was than America team Bush can order then to plant WMD in Iraq to say he was right to invade Iraq. That why many court want to know which lab and who done the test and it they did it right.
As I see it the sul'dam have than nice thing going
and they donot want to ruin it by testing one of their own and make her than damane it they can help
it.

From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Moon-Hawk
Member
Member # 107830



posted April 14, 2003 06:10 AM      Profile for Moon-Hawk      Edit/Delete Post
I'm pretty sure they don't test people by forcing the damane into screaming agony hundreds of times a day. The collar goes on all young women who have no known ability every year until they're too old (approximately out of their teens, but I'm not exactly sure) If they have the spark, or can channel, they're marked damane and the leash stays on. After that, I think everyone is tested the same as they're tested everywhere else, by channeling a little something, a light or a flame, for a long time and seeing if the tested can feel a resonance. (described in detail in the big book of bad art) This test would, of course, test positive for both sul'dam and damane, but since all the damane in the village just got loaded onto a cart, only the sul'dam are left. After that, neither the sul'dam or the damane are tested again. After all, what's the point? They already know what they are.

--------------------
I've learned too many systems. Sometimes I even forget which system is the REAL world uses. Uh-oh.

Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
Member
Member # 34606


posted April 14, 2003 06:39 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
A woman who was not born with it, and cannot acquire it, can put on the bracelet, and the damane will fall to the ground in screaming agony. She cannot become a sul'dam.

Your description was right in all counts but here. If someone, male or female, who cannot channel puts on the bracelet of an a'dam, there is no (0, nada) difference to the damane between that and the bracelet hanging on a peg on the wall. The non-channeler in the bracelet, of course, feels nothing.

This, of course, renders Moon-Hawk's point rather moot. Of note, though, it is stated that the testing (putting a collar around their neck) is done to sul'dam for the first several years of their service, along with all other girls of that age. You can't get out of being tested by hiding on a particular day at a particular age. You'd have to hide for years...

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
aleshandre
Member
Member # 27286



posted April 14, 2003 06:49 AM      Profile for aleshandre   Email aleshandre    Edit/Delete Post
Facts
1) Damane are female channelers
2) Female channelers can sense the presence of any woman who can channel or are nearing the ability to channel.
3) Women who can be taught to channel cannot be sensed until they are taught in channeling.
4) Suldam are women who can learn to channel, but have no training (except for controlling the damane).
5) Some Suldam "become" marath damane by learning to channel (despite their best efforts not to).
6) Suldam and any other woman who can learn to channel will be held by an adam if it is placed on her neck.

These points make it clear. Testing is done by walking a damane by the women and if the damane senses something, the woman is collered. If a woman passes the damane test (by failing), she can be tested (by putting the bracelet on) for suldam. If anyone has a disputation, I would like to see the text where it says otherwise. [Wink]

--------------------
Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.
Normal people frighten me. I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with crazy people, you know to watch your back!
My web page, new & improved:
http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/

From: temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sophiathegreen
Member
Member # 136464


posted April 14, 2003 03:25 PM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
Facts
1) Damane are female channelers
2) Female channelers can sense the presence of any woman who can channel or are nearing the ability to channel.
3) Women who can be taught to channel cannot be sensed until they are taught in channeling.
4) Suldam are women who can learn to channel, but have no training (except for controlling the damane).
5) Some Suldam "become" marath damane by learning to channel (despite their best efforts not to).
6) Suldam and any other woman who can learn to channel will be held by an adam if it is placed on her neck.

These points make it clear. Testing is done by walking a damane by the women and if the damane senses something, the woman is collered. If a woman passes the damane test (by failing), she can be tested (by putting the bracelet on) for suldam. If anyone has a disputation, I would like to see the text where it says otherwise. [Wink]

Are point 3 and 6 condicting each other in a way.
From: El Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fyatuk
Member
Member # 133738


posted April 15, 2003 05:47 AM      Profile for Fyatuk      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sophiathegreen:
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre:
Facts
1) Damane are female channelers
2) Female channelers can sense the presence of any woman who can channel or are nearing the ability to channel.
3) Women who can be taught to channel cannot be sensed until they are taught in channeling.
4) Suldam are women who can learn to channel, but have no training (except for controlling the damane).
5) Some Suldam "become" marath damane by learning to channel (despite their best efforts not to).
6) Suldam and any other woman who can learn to channel will be held by an adam if it is placed on her neck.

These points make it clear. Testing is done by walking a damane by the women and if the damane senses something, the woman is collered. If a woman passes the damane test (by failing), she can be tested (by putting the bracelet on) for suldam. If anyone has a disputation, I would like to see the text where it says otherwise. [Wink]


Are point 3 and 6 condicting each other in a way.

How would point 3 and 6 contradict. In point 3 just says learners can't be sensed until they are taught. Point 6 just says anyone with potential channeling ability can be held by the a'dam.

The reasoning on this list is correct. All the A'dam does is create a forced one-way Saidar link. If the bracelet works for someone, the collar will too, so if they tested by putting the collar on, there would be NO suldam.

On another note, the a'dam is made to handle saidar, which is why saidin causes pain and death. Also, with a burned out woman there is apparently a feedback effect causing some strange problems.

That's what I have to say.

--------------------
Fyatuk Loth
Tai'Shin
Weaver of Dreams

From: San Antonio Texas | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
Member
Member # 34606


posted April 15, 2003 08:18 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fyatuk:
That's what I have to say.

It's a shame it's directly contradicted by what RJ (through Egwene in the Great Hunt) had to say.

Everyone in this thread needs to reread the relevant section, I think.

--------------------
Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged


All times are Pacific Time
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | http://www.wizards.com/ | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin BoardTM 6.2.0

Shop Games Books Magazines Stores Events Company Worldwide Community