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Author Topic: Revising my rules for crafting objects of power
drothgery
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posted February 22, 2003 08:22 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
Before I submit my rules for crafting objects with the Power -- at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm -- (and my two Healing weaves) to the second netbook, I'd like to get some feedback on a few changes that I've made, and any other detail-level feedback.[1]

1) I've added a Transmute Iron to Heartstone weave.
2) The skill checks have been changed from Knowledge (Arcana) to Weavesight.
3) Restoration has been changed from Common to Rare, since Restore, in Prophecies of the Dragon, is a common, but weaker, version of this weave.

[1] Pretty much anything that doesn't challenge the core assumptions will be considered. Intoducing an XP cost for making ter'angreal, or eliminating the Latent Maker feat pre-req for taking the Maker Talent is beyond the scope of changes that I might make. If these rules were official, Elayne would have Latent Maker and Maker; Egwene would have Align the Matrix; Rand would know Craft Item as a cross-talent weave.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Elsbon
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posted February 22, 2003 03:22 PM      Profile for Elsbon      Edit/Delete Post
--minor CoT spoiler within--

Hello drothgery [Smile]

I liked the healing weaves you had. I didn't see anything to change about them. I am somewhat curious as to how you decided on the casting times for each.

With Craft Item, are you shaping material already there, or are you creating matter from just the Power? (seems like it should be the first) Second, maybe some more examples of things you could make (or couldn't!) should be listed.

Craft Weapon: Why does it include a craft(weaponsmithing) roll? That could be reasonable; I'm just looking for your in-game reason (I understand that it's a nice cost to include for out of game reasons - you want to make this sort of thing hard). Is the idea that the channeler is directly shaping the material into a form they want, and hence need to know how to craft it?Also, what happens if you fail the check? Is it just like craft (depending on how you failed by, you lose some of the materials, etc.)?

Create Power-Wrought Material: Do you want two weaves that make cuendillar? Also, fancloth is made by the one ter'angreal in the book. Since I'm not sure what else you might have in mind, maybe just turn this into a weave for making fancloth? (or give a little more description..."GM can let this make weird things, etc.")

***Paragraphs contains minor spoiler for CoT***
Transmute Iron into Heartstone: I like the weave. The high level versions allow for Egwene's little stunt at the end of CoT. I might make it slower at lower levels, to both a) reflect how long it took the novices to get anywhere, and b) make it hard for players to get lots of it. Perhaps make it per minute, instead of per round? Then you could add a level increase to boost the speed?

The Maker weaves seem pretty good. Presumably linked circles will often attempt this; can the others in the circle roll to assist (+2 bonus)?

I can't recall - when does Rand use Create Item?

These rules look pretty good! I think I'll suggest my GM take a look. [Smile]

[ February 22, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Elsbon ]

From: Ann Arbor, MI USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
JosephKell
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posted February 22, 2003 03:24 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
Wheel of Time is a low-magic item campaign setting. Magic Item Creation feats are not the realm of players in low-magic item campaigns.

But if you just must have them, I would double the XP cost of items, and limit weapon creation to just 1/7 level for the maximium +X (so 7th is for +1 and 14th is for +2, and 21st is for +3, making it so that +3 items remain as rare as they should be). Armor creation shouldn't be allowed, to keep the accuracy of the books.

Just remember that +2 and +3 weapons must be Master Piece.

[ February 22, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell ]

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Whitewinds
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posted February 22, 2003 09:51 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
Here's what I came up with for the campaign I'm in:

New Feats
Latent Maker (prereq: Wisdom 14+)
Craft ter'angreal (prereq: Latent Maker, channeler level 3+)
Craft Angreal/sa'angreal (prereq: Craft ter'angreal, channeler level 5+, Spirit affinities)

Ter'angreal creation is by necessity a collaborative effort between player and GM; there are just too many variables involved for any generalizations to be meaningful, and the D&D rules on wondrous items are worth than useless - Elayne created powerful ter'angreal from silver alloys, or even ordinary stone.

Angreal and sa'angreal creation is much simpler to model: To create one, the channeler must obtain a suitable base object, then cast upon it a weave of a level equal to its intended level times two. This takes a full day, and must be done umber of times equal to the square of the intended rating; at the extremes, a rating 1 angreal would take a day, and the use of a level two weave, and the Choedan Kal would require a level twenty weave each day for 100 days. Angreal and sa'angreal may not be used in the creation of other angreal or sa'angreal; this is why really powerful sa'angreal are so very scarce: Creating one that's over rating 4 requires linking, overchanneling, or both. Creating the Choedan Kal required two full circles of 72, and the leaders of the circles had to be 17h level at least, and even then they had to overchannel to their limit every day for over three months. Rating 6 is the absolute upper limit a single channeler could create alone, and it would be horribly dangerous to even attempt.

The potential power of a given base object seems to be in proportion to its size and density, from the few examples we have; a weak angreal can be as small as a pinky ring, the Choedan Kal had to be created as gigantic statues of cuendillar. Even the access keys are huge compared to most ter'angreal: A full foot tall, when most are little bigger than palm-sized.

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drothgery
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posted February 22, 2003 10:07 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
Elsbon --

Craft Item and Craft Power-wrought Material
pull something from nothing. We've definitely seen Craft Item in the novels, as per early in TSR, when Rand created a few things from nothing to try and impress various people (most notably Elayne).

The Craft checks involved in the various Craft weaves are there because the channeler is making something out of its constituent materials (or out of the One Power); she has to know what she's doing, or it's not going to work very well. The idea for this was basically cribbed from the Fabricate spell in D&D.

I thought about dropping heartstone from things that Craft Power-wrought Material (which I wrote up shortly after the RPG was released; long before CoT came out) could make, but decided against because Craft Power-wrought Material is much less effecient (and might not really exist; my thinking is that there should be some way to make oddball Power-based material without using ter'angreal, but it's a high-level lost weave in a rare Talent).

For the weaves that use materials, I should probably write-up the consequences of failed Craft checks, which should usually be the same as crafting the item normally.

JK --

I see no need to import a mechanic that I don't like from D&D (XP costs) for something that has a very high cost (spending feats on anything that can't be used in combat, being sneaky, or in normal social interaction and lots of ranks in skills that fall in the same category). And since the channeler is forging the blade with the Power, she doesn't need to have a masterwork or masterpiece blade to start with; that's silly. Besides, determining the XP cost of a random ter'angreal seems like a good way to torture your gamemaster.

There aren't a lot of power-wrought weapons around because the Wise Ones and Windfinders don't know how to make them (rare weave), and Aes Sedai are prohibited from doing so by the Second Oath. Note that in almost any rational d20 WoT game (set in the Westlands in the last third of the Third Age), the overwhelming majority of channeling PCs will be initiates of the Aes Sedai tradition.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
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drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blackdraman
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posted February 23, 2003 10:00 AM      Profile for Blackdraman   Email Blackdraman    Edit/Delete Post
Dear drothgery,

I am sorry but I must correct you on something.
quote:
We've definitely seen Craft Item in the novels, as per early in TSR, when Rand created a few things from nothing to try and impress various people (most notably Elayne).

Rand did not create those things (namely a flower) from nothing. He created the flower from the feathers out of the mattress after causing it to "explode". In my opinion this is more inline with an "Aligning the Matrix" type weave.

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JosephKell
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posted February 23, 2003 02:19 PM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
The real reason there is an xp cost for making magic itmes in D&D is so that it reflects the spellcaster putting magic into it, but more to stop players from abusing magic item creation. If any channeler can make a +lvl/3 Power Wrought Sword (this is following D&D creation), then you would have every character in the party owning a magic item. One Power items are supposed to be rare, and giving players easy access is a mistake.

I would never give One Power item creation methods to players even following the costly D&D3 rules. And now there are people suggesting that being able to use a weave--even a lost weave--to make an angreal is game breaking. A +1 angreal is a big deal, and using a level 2 weave! I know this requires a few feats before you can do this, but still, a level 2 weave! And this can be done by 6th level, unless the GM allows you to use a channeler feat for one of the 3 feats, then a channeler can do this by level 3!

Why do players need that kind of power? Granted if a man could somehow make female angreal, and was caught by the tower, he could probably keep his channeling ability longer if he traded it for an angreal a week or whatever. But still, this turns a game with emphasis on roleplaying into one of munchkinning. I was glad when in my prophicies of the dragon game that Taim took back the +1 Fox Angreal... It makes PC Channelers overshadow non-channelers that much more.

I like Wheel of Time because of the low-magic item style, the Character makes the Character, not the items owned.

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Whitewinds
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posted February 24, 2003 12:12 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One Power items are supposed to be rare, and giving players easy access is a mistake.

Why do players need that kind of power? [T]his turns a game with emphasis on roleplaying into one of munchkinning. I was glad when in my prophicies of the dragon game that Taim took back the +1 Fox Angreal... It makes PC Channelers overshadow non-channelers that much more.

I like Wheel of Time because of the low-magic item style, the Character makes the Character, not the items owned.

You're forgetting three things, or deliberately disregarding them. First, the ability to create ter'angreal has been rediscovered in the books, and it seems quite likely that the methods of creating angreal and sa'angreal will be rediscovered as well, and so some way to represent this is very appropriate.

Second, not all Wheel of Time campaigns will take place in the default setting; some will occur in eras when the knowledge is available, so again, having some sort of rules for them is appropriate.

Third, and most importantly, declaring that "You can't make any One Power item because you're a PC" both damages deeply the verisimilitude of the campaign world, and will almost certainly engender resentment on the part of the players, and rightly so, as this is an entirely an arbitrary, top-down restriction with no game-world justification whatsoever.

Speaking as a player who admits to liking my character to have the power needed to handle the challenges she faces, and who places great store by consistency in a world, I would find such a ruling from my GM to be extremely offensive and insulting, especially given the apparent attitude that underlies your objections: That giving players access to personal power will automatically lead to munchkin behaviour.

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Eagle Prince
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posted February 27, 2003 01:43 AM      Profile for Eagle Prince   Email Eagle Prince    Edit/Delete Post
Why no XP cost? I mean, what is your reason behind this being a "bad idea"? I am thinking it is because you have a rigid view of what XP is. If I am spending huge chucks of my time and effort to make heartstone, for instance (which it obviously does with one exception--who'd techiqually have alot of XP to dump anyway), then I am not spending it on leveling up--the only other thing you can use it for atm.

Beyond the idea of "you get dumber" by spending XP (which I don't think it represtents), I was wondering what other reasons you may have (good or bad).

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JosephKell
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posted February 27, 2003 11:11 AM      Profile for JosephKell   Email JosephKell    Edit/Delete Post
If players can make items with no xp cost, then soon everyone and their horse will have items of the one power again.

"**** , I am out of money again..." a channeler mumbles. "Oh well..." the channeler turns a dagger into a +1 power-wrought dagger and sells it for 230 gold crowns (2300 gp).

And that is at level 5 (because craft magical arms and armor is 5th level spellcaster), unless you lower it, even though WoT is a lower magic item campaign.

I still think it should be 1/7th level for max +, and now 10 times the xp cost! (so now it is 2/5 the silver marks cost in xp)

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-If you cast Meteor Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells...
-If your character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook...
-If you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four charges left...
-If the God of Destiny asks you what will have next...
...you might be a Munchkin.

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Eagle Prince
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posted February 27, 2003 02:52 PM      Profile for Eagle Prince   Email Eagle Prince    Edit/Delete Post
I was actually thinking of a way you might be able to balance it out without using XP, but I was hoping to see what his reasons were not to use it.

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drothgery
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posted February 28, 2003 03:01 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not going to deny that my rules have potential for abuse, but I think that they only have that potential if the GM and players ignore the conventions of the Wheel of Time universe.

Nobody is going to go nuts making power-wrought weapons in any rational 3rd-age WoT campaign because the Second Oath prohibits Aes Sedai from doing so, and non-Aes Sedai channelers are not free to act against Aes Sedai dictates unless you're outside the Westlands. So this isn't a real concern.

As a practical matter, I don't like XP costs for several reasons. First, it's incredibly difficult to figure out what's 'right' for a particular item, especially in WoT, where a lot of the stranger elements of the magic system are done with ter'angreal. Second, it's unnecessary bookkeeping. Third, it gets the players levels out of sync with one another.

And fourth, most of the meta-game justifications for XP costs in D&D are manifestly not true in WoT. You're not putting something of yourself into a ter'angreal; Elayne's fine the next day with no adverse side effects. She doesn't have to go out adventuring before she can make another one.

But I think that within the framework of the WoT universe, my rules are fairly balanced. Feats and skill points are very hefty cost in and of themselves; they foreclose other options for low to mid-level characters, and high-level channelers are extremely formidable whether they can make items or not.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

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Dave Shramek
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posted February 28, 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for Dave Shramek   Email Dave Shramek    Edit/Delete Post
This whole idea of being able to create ter'angeal and power-wrought things when only one person in the world can boils down to a very serious problem with most gamers. Namely, many players have the problem of wondering "How can my character be a hero without this unique or extraordinarily rare ability?" That is bad roleplaying.

Sure, if you're playing in the Age of Legends, you might know how to make some of this stuff. If you're playing during the War of Power, you might know how to craft a power-wrought blade.

However, I wouldn't let ANYONE of my players know how to craft the above in a "modern" setting. I'm not even sure why they allowed people to be viewers, but whatever. This is not arbitrary, it is in fact based entirely on the books. These gifts are EXCEEDINGLY rare. Only one channeller in thousands, if not tens of thousands knows how to make the stuff and/or is strong enough to even begin to understand how.

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Whitewinds
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posted March 01, 2003 11:27 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek:
This whole idea of being able to create ter'angeal and power-wrought things when only one person in the world can (snip) These gifts are EXCEEDINGLY rare. Only one channeller in thousands, if not tens of thousands knows how to make the stuff and/or is strong enough to even begin to understand how.

Actually, that's incorrect. Within the Tower in exile, there are three Aes Sedai, other than Elayne, who have the needed talent to make ter'angreal (we don't know about the novices or Accepted), and in Seanchan there are many damane who can create a'dam. So even if those four are the only members of the Tower in exile who do have the ability, that's still one channeler in 250 among women, and it's entirely conceivable that the actual percentage is higher that that. It's a rare ability, but more common than being a wolfbrother, or a treesinger.
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Eagle Prince
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posted March 07, 2003 06:05 AM      Profile for Eagle Prince   Email Eagle Prince    Edit/Delete Post
Sometimes I think I'm reading a completely different series also called 'Wheel of Time' than everyone else, cause the people I read about are usually lugging around a half dozen+ *greal each, 3 Bonded blademasters w/ power-wrought swords, and have a good 15-20 'lost' abilities between them.

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MT
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posted March 07, 2003 08:11 AM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek:
This whole idea of being able to create ter'angeal and power-wrought things when only one person in the world can (snip) These gifts are EXCEEDINGLY rare. Only one channeller in thousands, if not tens of thousands knows how to make the stuff and/or is strong enough to even begin to understand how.


Actually, that's incorrect. Within the Tower in exile, there are three Aes Sedai, other than Elayne, who have the needed talent to make ter'angreal (we don't know about the novices or Accepted)

But we do know about some novices and accepted as far as making Heartstone goes. In CoT, Egwene has set up a sweat shop where half a dozen novices sit turning iron into Heartstone. On page 426 it states, "...strength in Earth is the key, and beside Egwene herself, only nine sisters in the camp--along with two Accepted and the nearly two dozen novices--had sufficient of that to make the weaves work at all." It goes on to say that only Egwene and three others can make ter'angreal.

And it's that small because Earth is the major weave (Fire being second). If men were to learn it, probably half of them would be able to make ter'angreal and all of them would be able to convert heartstone quickly.

As for the weave Tranmute Iron to Heartstone, the book also describes the weaves needed to do it. It requires two weaves (multi-weave feat), one is a weave of Earth, Fire and Air that surrounds the object in a net. The other is a weave of Earth and Fire that penetrates the net just so, ans slowly turns the iron to Heartstone. It also says it takes the same power as making three balls of fire at once.

And for the person who said that when a person runs out of money they will simply make a powerwrought dagger, guess what the Sisters are making the Heartstone cups and bowls for? That's right, money! To feed thier army. They are power-munchkin *****s! I'm kidding, they're actually very smart, and a GM shouldn't nerf a game to prevent people from being smart.

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Whitewinds
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posted March 07, 2003 11:58 AM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MT:
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek:
This whole idea of being able to create ter'angeal and power-wrought things when only one person in the world can (snip) These gifts are EXCEEDINGLY rare. Only one channeller in thousands, if not tens of thousands knows how to make the stuff and/or is strong enough to even begin to understand how.


Actually, that's incorrect. Within the Tower in exile, there are three Aes Sedai, other than Elayne, who have the needed talent to make ter'angreal (we don't know about the novices or Accepted)

But we do know about some novices and accepted as far as making Heartstone goes. In CoT, Egwene has set up a sweat shop where half a dozen novices sit turning iron into Heartstone. On page 426 it states, "...strength in Earth is the key, and beside Egwene herself, only nine sisters in the camp--along with two Accepted and the nearly two dozen novices--had sufficient of that to make the weaves work at all." It goes on to say that only Egwene and three others can make ter'angreal.

And it's that small because Earth is the major weave (Fire being second). If men were to learn it, probably half of them would be able to make ter'angreal and all of them would be able to convert heartstone quickly.

Though I'll agree about cuendillar - that far more men than women would be able to make it - I'm not so sure about ter'angreal. We have no information about what, if any, weaves are common to their creation, or how much strength in each element is needed; it doesn't seem to take a lot of strength per se, but it does seem to require a great deal of fine control and perception. Elayne refers to "the smallest bits, too small to see or even sense without he One Power."
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Steve Russell
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posted March 07, 2003 12:18 PM      Profile for Steve Russell   Email Steve Russell    Edit/Delete Post
remember one thing Toveine Gazal says that sums up Jordan's creation of rules and then breaking them "She did not discount it becasue it was impossible she had seen the impossible happen often enough"WH

Gary Gaygx said to me at a seminar once "If you have limits as a DM you need to explore them otherwise you could be robbing your players of a wonderful experience, for the sake of being a Ruleslawyer"

Don't the Seanchan have to be able to have Damane that can craft A'dam?

Also if you follow The Wheel of Times basic principle that time is circular you will have the ability to create angreal, sa and ter, come again

plus these things could be very usefull for 1st and 4th age campaigns.

As Morpheus said "free your mind"

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Sophiathegreen
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posted April 17, 2003 03:33 AM      Profile for Sophiathegreen   Email Sophiathegreen    Edit/Delete Post
We are assumely that the second oak's is absolute.
It mightnot be absolute for all time. Let say the shadow sent than huge army armed with powerbrough weapon against the Westland, do you think that sister
might believe they might have to break the oak's this time to save the Westland by creating powerbrought weapons to armed the armies of the Westland.

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Steve Russell
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posted April 17, 2003 04:06 AM      Profile for Steve Russell   Email Steve Russell    Edit/Delete Post
actually the way to get around the second oath is to make a weapon only a women could use.

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Please visit and review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace Book.

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drothgery
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posted April 17, 2003 07:13 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Russell:
actually the way to get around the second oath is to make a weapon only a women could use.

About the only way to do that would be to make a weapon that required saidar to use, and then you're running into the Third Oath.

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Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

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Sharn_Penndroen
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posted April 17, 2003 07:18 AM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
I believe that the wording of the second oath, "To create no weapon with which a man may kill another," is an artifact of the english language. Mankind = man. Besides, you have to make a pretty creative weapon to have it only usable by women. Yikes.

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A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

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Steve Russell
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posted April 17, 2003 07:40 AM      Profile for Steve Russell   Email Steve Russell    Edit/Delete Post
Yea and The Lord of the Nazgul said "no mortal man may hinder me"

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Please visit and review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace Book.

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Fyatuk
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posted April 17, 2003 08:36 AM      Profile for Fyatuk      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sharn_Penndroen:
I believe that the wording of the second oath, "To create no weapon with which a man may kill another," is an artifact of the english language. Mankind = man. Besides, you have to make a pretty creative weapon to have it only usable by women. Yikes.

True, but it does not say to create no weapon that will lead to a man's death. They could simply make a weapon that has an added affect of instant unconsciousness and have their warder walk up and slit the poor victims throat.

They have to follow the letter or the oaths, but nothing keeps them following the spirit...

As for item creation, I did not read the weaves, so no comments on them specifically, but as for item creation in general...

This world is about rediscovery. What once was lost is now being found, therefore if a player wants to try and do something that existed at some point, the DM needs to provide for it (even if the DM makes it practically impossible to do).

PS: anyone besides me notice the game provided healing weave takes a lot more time than what is shown in the series??

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Fyatuk Loth
Tai'Shin
Weaver of Dreams

From: San Antonio Texas | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Great Gray Skwid
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Member # 34606


posted April 17, 2003 08:49 AM      Profile for The Great Gray Skwid   Email The Great Gray Skwid    Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fyatuk:
PS: anyone besides me notice the game provided healing weave takes a lot more time than what is shown in the series??

Heck, yes. Even more dramatic, though, is Delve. They totally hosed that up. We rewrote the casting times on that for our game so that the Level 1 effect only takes 1 standard action.

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Evan "Skwid" Langlinais
The Humblest Mollusk on the Net
http://www.thehumblest.net/
Ask me for information about the Texas Darkfriends!

From: The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged


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