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Author Topic: Altering the way Talents work to better simulate the books: Comments?
MT
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posted May 19, 2003 05:18 PM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
I have a beef with the way Talents are used in the WoT game because they seem to be an arbitrary mechanism from Wizards to try and imitate DnD's distinct spell caster system (Wizard vs Cleric), and has little to do with how channelers work in the book. For instance, using this system a Sea Folk Wilder/10 with affinities in Air and Water and a Talent in Cloud Dancing could weave a howling wind that affects a 10 mile circle, but upon learning the Arms of Air weave, could only move 25 lb. objects. Channelers in the book are not constrained by arbitrary categories for weaves, but only by their power in each Affinity (Egwene is very good with Earth and Fire thus can do lots of Earth related weaves no matter what Talent they might be in). Thus I present a slightly altered system that removes Talents as a category system, and recasts them as an Affinity enhancement.

The One Power System remains essentially the same except that Talent categories are removed and the Talent feat is thus adjusted. Weaves are no longer categorized by a Talent heading, like Cloud Dancing or Earth Singing. All weaves are defined by the affinities it takes to cast them. So Arms of Air is an Air weave and Riven Earth is an Earth and Fire weave. This means that you can learn any weave provided you can channel the minimum level. For example, if you see a Riven Earth weave, successfully learn it through weavesight, and can channel a 4th level weave, then you can now cast Riven Earth.

Affinities and the Extra Affinity Feat continue to work the same way. The Extra Talent Feat is thus changed:

Extra Talent Feat:
You are extraordinarily talented in one of the Five Powers.
Prerequisite: You must already have an Affinity (through character creation or Extra Affinity) with the Power you choose.
Benefit: Pick one of the Five Powers for which you already have an Affinity, but not a Talent with. You now have a Talent for that Affinity and the weaves that use it. Weaves for which you have a Talent for all the affinities used in it are now considered 2 levels lower than listed. Note that the bonus for having an Affinities is included in this and does not stack. For example, Distant Eye is 3rd level and has the Affinities Air and Spirit. If you have Talents for both Air and Spirit, you may treat Distant Eye as a 1st level weave. Thus you may use a 1st level slot to channel it.

In addition, you gain +2 to your weavesight check for every Power you have a Talent for in the weave you are trying to learn. For example, if you have a Talent for Earth and see Riven Earth weave, you get +2 to your weavesight check. If you have a Talent for Earth and Fire, you get a +4 to your weavesight check.

Lastly, you are now able to invent, on your own, new weaves that use the Powers you have a Talent for. The DC for creating a new weave is determined by its average casting level (min+max/2, round up) against a weavesight check:

Level | DC
------------
0 | 5
1 | 10
2 | 15
3 | 20
4 | 25
5 | 30
6 | 35
7 | 40
8 | 45
9 | 50

You gain +2 to your weavesight check for every Power you have a Talent for in the weave you are trying to create. For example, you are trying to restore a stilled Aes Sedai. The average casting level for Restore the Power is 9. You have a weavesight of +20 (+16 ranks, +4 Int). You have a Talent for all five powers, giving you +10 to your check. That gives you a weavesight bonus of +30. Since the DC for level 9 is 50, you must roll a 20 to figure out the weave Restore the Power. Since you are only level 13 at this time, increasing your weavesight skill as you rise in levels will increase your chances. It is up to the GM's discretion as to how many times per level a character can try and create a new weave.

-----------

Note: You no longer get a Talent at character creation since you only have one affinity at that time and can now learn any spell you can cast. You could, though, use your first level feat to gain a Talent in the Affinity you have.

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Matai Gaidin
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posted May 20, 2003 02:27 PM      Profile for Matai Gaidin      Edit/Delete Post
[teach]
I've been pondering the One Power system, too; I've been wishing it were closer to the books. My thought is that the book characters talk about being strong in Fire or Water or such. Also, some Weaves require great dexterity at real "weaving" to accomplish, others are simple. I was thinking of making Fire, Earth, Water, Air, and Spirit be skills (or something like it). You must have at least one rank in a skill to cast a weave using that affinity. Casting the weave requires a d20 roll + your skill bonus versus a set DC for the weave and level. I think it would be too complex to set different DC's for each affinity used in a weave, but perhaps a single DC and you use the lowest skill bonus of the affinities the spell uses. For example, Selea the White Tower Initiate (Accepted) attempts to cast Harden Air on a small object. She uses a level-1 weave slot (as normal). She also has to roll a Weave check. Harden Air only uses the Air affinity and her Weave Air skill is +5, so she rolls and on a 5 or higher, she succeeds in weaving the Weave. Now, she releases that weave and wants to cast Light. I don't have my book here, but I think it uses Air and Fire. Her Weave Fire skill is only +1 and the DC is still 10 for a level-1 weave. She again uses 1st-level weave slot and rolls a d20. She gets a 7, addes the +1 from her lowest skill and the result is an 8, a failure. She does not succeed in weaving Light, because she is still inexperienced and weak in the Power.
At higher levels, her Weave Air skill could increase to +11 or higher. In that case, a roll isn't necessary, she's always able to cast Harden Air at a low weave level, it only requires effort to cast it at the highest levels. Also, women would get a bonus to their weave skills because, as the "Big White Book" says, women are more skilled at weaving than men, but men are stronger. Men might have a bonus to the save DC's of their weaves, or they get extra slots. (On that issue, I prefer Ishamael's slot point system, rather than the Core Book's weave slots).

I don't know how to handle the case where Rand can't Heal at all, Elayne can only heal a bruise, but Nynaeve can Heal almost anything.

One more thing I like about this system, is that weaves that use all 5 affinities are harder to cast. In the current system, a weave that has all 5 is easier, in a way, because it gets around the penalties of casting a weave you don't have the affinities for; (if you don't have any affinities in the weave, it takes an extra level to cast it; if you have all the affinities, it's one level less).

Feedback?

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"I think Matai's dead!"
"Good, I need the rest," Matai replied.

From: Modesto, California | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted May 20, 2003 02:54 PM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Matai Gaidin:
[teach]
I've been pondering the One Power system, too; I've been wishing it were closer to the books. My thought is that the book characters talk about being strong in Fire or Water or such. Also, some Weaves require great dexterity at real "weaving" to accomplish, others are simple. I was thinking of making Fire, Earth, Water, Air, and Spirit be skills (or something like it).

Feedback?

In the system we used before d20 (Earthdawn), we had 2 separate skills for each affinity...weaving and force. (ie. Water Weaving and Water Force) You would have vastly different totals in each skill depending on how you spent your experience points. Using this system, Travelling required four weaving skill checks (at a set target #; 20 in this case) of 2 spirit threads, 1 fire thread and 1 air thread. If they succeeded on all checks, then they would roll their Spirit Force for the effect. Channelers can only weave one thread in a initiative round, unless they 1) roll exceptionally high, or 2) roll sucessfully on a Multiweave skill check (allows one additional weave in the round).

With this system, women could get straight bonuses to their weaving skills, while men could get straight bonuses to their force skills. With this method as well, affinity skills could cost less or more depending on the gender of the channeler. (Air and Water skills cost 1 skill point, while Fire and Earth skills cost 2 for female channelers.) So on and so forth...

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AKA Freya Culadin

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MT
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posted May 20, 2003 03:04 PM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
Some short thoughts. The main point against a system like you suggest is that it adds a lot of paperwork. You end up having a different rank for each weave, and when you go up a level and add to your skills, you have to once again recalculate all your weave ranks.

I'm considereing totally rehauling the OP system to further simulate the books by having weaves not just have affinities associated, but threads per affinity. Casting a Harden Air at low level would require just 1 or 2 threads of air, but at higher levels it might require 10-50 threads.

The books usually use the word "complexity" when describing a weave to indicate it has hundreds of threads involved in casting it (like Nyv healing someone). So a thread number system would be a good simulation for that, but I'm afraid would also be a paperwork headache.

Add to this that Talents in the book vary from being a Dreamer (a feat) to having a talent for Shielding (a weave). RJ states that one of the Kin who is very weak in the power can shield woman far stronger than her because she has a talent for it.

I was going to add that to my new Extra Talent Feat that you could also take it in a specific spell (like shield) and lower the casting level by 1 each time, but it was getting pretty long at that point and I wanted to get basic feedback first.

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Talan Palaemon
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posted May 21, 2003 03:47 AM      Profile for Talan Palaemon      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that the RPG system doesn't reflect the books accurately. It might seem a small thing, but it irritates me that Talents are used as a limiter instead of a - well, special talent.

I really like the bonus to Weavesight in your Extra Talent, and the ability to invent new Weaves are also cool.
The skill-based channeling systems involve way too much number-crunching for my taste. I think its possible to "repair" the current system.

There are, however, several problems involved with changing the system:

- Talents are used as a restriction, and removing that makes Channelers even stronger (not good IMO, they are powerful enough).

- Same problem with changing Talents into a bonus, only worse.

I don't think its a good idea to remove the concept of Talents entirely, they ARE mentioned repeatedly in the books and is not the same as Affinities. A Talent in Healing for instance lets you create stronger healing weaves, while channelers without the talent can hardly use it (Elayne, Wise Ones etc).
It seems to me that most Talents makes a channeler better at specific very complicated weaves (or group of similar weaves). Both Healing and Cloud Dancing, for instance, are described as being very complex weaves. This is different from the simple elemental type weaves that every channeler uses (manipulation of Air or Fire for instance), and whose strength are dependent on Affinities (and Level off course).

The RPG system has a lot of weaves that can be used by all (the 0-levels for Ini and 2-levels for Wilders), but I don't agree with all their choices.
A simple solution would be to make Elementalism usable by all channelers, and keep the real Talents (those described by RJ).
I am not sure what to do with Conjunction and Warding, but are there any channeler in the books who doesn't know how to Shield ? Perhaps these Talents should also be common Knowledge (though different Traditions know different weaves, like the Aes Sedai specialty Bond Warder).

Hope you can figure something out - as you can see this has been a pet project of mine for some time [Big Grin]

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MT
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posted May 21, 2003 10:50 AM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Talan Palaemon:
Talents are used as a restriction, and removing that makes Channelers even stronger (not good IMO, they are powerful enough).

- Same problem with changing Talents into a bonus, only worse.

I don't think its a good idea to remove the concept of Talents entirely, they ARE mentioned repeatedly in the books and is not the same as Affinities. A Talent in Healing for instance lets you create stronger healing weaves, while channelers without the talent can hardly use it (Elayne, Wise Ones etc).

It seems to me that most Talents makes a channeler better at specific very complicated weaves (or group of similar weaves). Both Healing and Cloud Dancing, for instance, are described as being very complex weaves. This is different from the simple elemental type weaves that every channeler uses (manipulation of Air or Fire for instance), and whose strength are dependent on Affinities (and Level off course).


You're right. It essentially starts out every channeler as having every Talent. But as it works in he rules now, that just means everyone has the ability to learn any spell (and potentially cast it). Talents as they are don't really make you supered skilled in a particular weave (Healing, Shielding, Wind Calling), they just make you able to cast them, which is what I didn't like.

One way to balance the power in my system is to take the levels of every weave and increase it one. So a first level weave is now a second level weave, etc. Then dropping two levels for having all the Affinities and all the Talents isn't as powerful, but taking a Talent in the weave itself to drop another level is still worth the feat.

Another possibility is haveing the Talent feat cost two feats (latent Air Talent, then Air Talent). This would suck up channeler's feats faster.

quote:


The RPG system has a lot of weaves that can be used by all (the 0-levels for Ini and 2-levels for Wilders), but I don't agree with all their choices.

A simple solution would be to make Elementalism usable by all channelers, and keep the real Talents (those described by RJ).

That's also an interesting idea, to create a "common" talent that all channelers have and put the basic weaves into that, then rearrange the other talents so that the spells in them mean something. It still means taking a Talent only makes you able to learn a weave and not mean really good at it.

The best example I can think of for how Talents should work, aside from shielding, is with making Heartstone. Any Aes Sedai can learn the weave, but only a few can channel enough Earth to do it. Even for most of those, it still takes forever to to make, but for Egwene, who has an Earth Talent, she can turn the whole dock chain to heartstone in an instant.

Again, it's a matter of how to simulate this in the RP system without making channelers too powerful.

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Talan Palaemon
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posted May 22, 2003 04:12 AM      Profile for Talan Palaemon      Edit/Delete Post
Just a few comments

quote:
One way to balance the power in my system is to take the levels of every weave and increase it one. So a first level weave is now a second level weave, etc. Then dropping two levels for having all the Affinities and all the Talents isn't as powerful, but taking a Talent in the weave itself to drop another level is still worth the feat.
This is a good idea, since it turns a Talent into a bonus. I would consider using a group of common weaves, however, so some weaves remain unaltered.

quote:
The best example I can think of for how Talents should work, aside from shielding, is with making Heartstone. Any Aes Sedai can learn the weave, but only a few can channel enough Earth to do it. Even for most of those, it still takes forever to to make, but for Egwene, who has an Earth Talent, she can turn the whole dock chain to heartstone in an instant.

What if weaves from a Talent you don't have could only be cast at a level of effect similar to the bonus from the channelers primary channeling stat (Int for Ini, Wis for Wil) ? This would further differentiate channelers with great potential (i.e. high stats) from those with less inborn power.
There is a problem with the Wilders ability to cast cross-talent weaves, but i guess they could gain a bonus to their modifier or maybe a bonus feat instead [Confused]

I have no problem with channelers having the potential to learn all weaves - the GM should be able to control which weaves the channeler can learn anyway [Devilish] - but different channelers should have different strengths and weaknesses.
Perhaps channelers should also pick a talent they are really poor at, and which they can never gain ?
You could thus have 4 different levels of Talents:
- No Talent at all and unable to learn.
- Untalented: you have no special Talent with these weaves, but can cast them at a low level.
- Talented: You can cast high level weaves from this Talent.
- Very Talented: Weaves from this talent counts as one level lower, you gain a bonus to weavesight and may be able to create new weaves.

Well, it needs some work, but what do you think ? Would it cost too many feats ?

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LuciusT
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posted May 22, 2003 07:22 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I've been working on revising the channeling system myself and here's what I came up with while half asleep last night.

My thought is to make all weaves under Elementalism and Earth Singing "general" in some way. My reasoning is that those weaves represent things all channelers seems to be able to do. Talents, OTOH, represent extra-ordinary things some channelers can do and others cannot. I have 3 distinct thoughts on how to do this.

1) All channelers have access to all levels of these weaves. However, channelers do not start with a free Talent. Essentially, the free Talent granted by the channeling classes is Elementalism+Earth Singing.

2) All channelers have access to levels 0-3 of these weaves. Greater access if bought by taking the Elementalism Talent.

3) All channelers have access to levels 0-3 of these weaves. The higher levels of the weaves are divided into 4 Talents by element (Air, Fire, Water, Earth) and access to those higher levels is bought by taking the relevent Talent. I might refer to those Talents as Strengths... such as Strength in Air. That's merely a name change, the effect is essentially the same. The reasoning there is that in the boooks people are refered to as being "Strong" in a given Power and I don't feel that the Affinities really model that properly.

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Talan Palaemon
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posted May 23, 2003 04:55 AM      Profile for Talan Palaemon      Edit/Delete Post
It might be usefull to define what a Talent is (though i am not sure RJ has one [Dubious] ).

The books describe different Talents, but some are only mentioned (like Milking Tears and Aligning the Matrix - the last is probaply used to make power-wrought items) and others have nothing to do with the One Power (Foretelling, Dreaming etc).
This leaves Cloud Dancing, Healing, Earth Singing, Travelling and perhaps Balefire and Illusion (called Mask of Mirrors or Mirror of Mists).
These Talents/sets of weaves have one thing in common: They represent extremely complicated weaves, which can be used in a variety of ways (I am not talking about the different weaves Wizards use; is Harden Air and Arms of Air different weaves in the books, or are they different ways to use the same weave ?). Some also affect large areas (Cloud Dancing is not manipulation of Air, but of weather - which we all know is very complicated). Try to imagine all the specific effects you would have to accomplish in order to heal a simple wound (connecting each muscle and sinew, removing blood and infections, etc, etc). This is not the same as creating a flame or stirring a pool of water.

Normal Channelers cannot use weaves from Talents very effectively, but if you have the Talent you can cast complicated weaves with the same ease that you manipulate the raw elements (represented by Air, Water, Fire, Earth and Spirit).

Well that was my shot at the theory behind Talents, and this is what i think the system should reflect.

quote:
My thought is to make all weaves under Elementalism and Earth Singing "general" in some way. My reasoning is that those weaves represent things all channelers seems to be able to do.
I think this is only true to a certain extent. Use of Earth to manipulate stone (for instance when Rand removes footprints from a Darkhound by smoothing the floortiles) belongs in the Elementalism Talent (which everyone can do). But the use of Earth to create Earthquakes and movements in the earth is a special Talent (complex effects, huge areas).
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LuciusT
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posted May 23, 2003 06:23 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Talan Palaemon:
quote:
My thought is to make all weaves under Elementalism and Earth Singing "general" in some way. My reasoning is that those weaves represent things all channelers seems to be able to do.
I think this is only true to a certain extent. Use of Earth to manipulate stone (for instance when Rand removes footprints from a Darkhound by smoothing the floortiles) belongs in the Elementalism Talent (which everyone can do). But the use of Earth to create Earthquakes and movements in the earth is a special Talent (complex effects, huge areas).

Except that Moiraine could create earthquakes and didn't appear to have any special Talent in that regard.
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Talan Palaemon
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posted May 24, 2003 02:34 AM      Profile for Talan Palaemon      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Except that Moiraine could create earthquakes and didn't appear to have any special Talent in that regard.
Thats true, and it's exactly why i used to lump Earth Singing and Elementalism together. One small "problem" however:
Earth Singing is described in some of the Glossaries, so if you want to play by RJ´s rules Eathquake belongs in a Talent.
There could be several explanations for Moiraines use of Earthquake. 1) She is a very special and talented Channeler, and uses lots of weaves nobody else uses (Balefire, her wall of fire in EotW etc etc). 2) I think she was using an angreal (?), thus making a modest ability to weave Earth Singing weaves very effectful.

My earlier post was an attempt to explain something (namely Talents) thats not very logical, because the term is used rather loosely in the books (where it covers the use of related weaves, but also sometimes the use of a single weave (like Balefire or Invisibility).

I think the main problem in the current RPG system is how to limit the abilities of channelers who does not have a Talent, and how to make those who do better.

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Magus
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posted May 24, 2003 03:30 PM      Profile for Magus   Email Magus    Edit/Delete Post
i don't know... It's ok and doesn't involve alot of paperwork as is. With me, I just altered the overchanneling rules (every use of overchanneling past the first increases the check DC by +1), and made it so you don't have to spend a feat for a Talent. Instead, just use Weavesight to learn the talent, DC 30 if i remember right.

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Snow Crash
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posted May 27, 2003 07:10 AM      Profile for Snow Crash      Edit/Delete Post
My big upset is the lack of fatigue. In the books Aes Sedai are always fatigued by lots of channeling, sometimes to the point where they can't stand up etc. This very rarely comes into play unless one overchannels a lot, even then it hardly seems indicitive of how the books handle it. I would rather see the ability to increase the power of weaves by spending Subdual Hit Points. If someone can work this one out for me I would be eternally grateful. In our campaign we have removed a lot ofthe rule for the sake of keeping it as close to the books as we can. eg no saves vs the Oath Rod or aDam.
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LuciusT
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posted May 27, 2003 09:46 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Talan Palaemon:
[QUOTE] One small "problem" however:
Earth Singing is described in some of the Glossaries, so if you want to play by RJ´s rules Eathquake belongs in a Talent.

IIRC, Earth Singing is mentioned but never defined. We don't know that the RPG defines it correctly (and before anyone says RJ reviewed the RPG, let me remind you that he managed to miss the entire 3rd act of Winter of Discontent in Prophecies of the Dragon). [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash:
My big upset is the lack of fatigue. In the books Aes Sedai are always fatigued by lots of channeling, sometimes to the point where they can't stand up etc. This very rarely comes into play unless one overchannels a lot, even then it hardly seems indicitive of how the books handle it.

Before the offical rules were published, the idea was put around to use a Star Wars style system, where instead of slots using weaves caused an amount of subdual damage. I'm not sure that system works properly either.

Ultimately, I don't think d20 is really set up to model increasing fatigue well.

[ May 27, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: LuciusT ]

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Snow Crash
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posted May 28, 2003 06:03 AM      Profile for Snow Crash      Edit/Delete Post
We are thinking of using a system where just that happens .

If you don't have the affinities you take subdual damage from casting the weave, we were thinking around (3xweave level)-(channeler level) for every affinity you don't have.

ie 8th level channeler casting 5th level weave requiring Earth, Water and Fire.

She has Water but not the other two. therfore 3x5-8=7pts for fire and another 7 for earth for a total of 14pts subdual damage. Still need to test it but something like that. Maybe only 2x but double if you don't have the talent or any of the affinities.

This would allow moderate level channelers to cast low level weaves with no fatigue but high levels would still really knock them about.

[ May 28, 2003, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: Snow Crash ]

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Mad_Wanderer
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posted June 06, 2003 02:23 PM      Profile for Mad_Wanderer      Edit/Delete Post
On the talent matter i have been thinking about it lately too.
I have decided that lost feats should not be chosen by players first of all.
They are a bonus that i will give without telling them every few levels.
I find that reflects the books well.
As for talents, i would do the same and would add an Improve talent feat.
This can be taken to improve an existing talent or a spell, either increasing the DC to resist it or lowering the level of the weave.
As for as negative talents like being unable to heal....Well ...the DM could perhaps randomly choose a couple of domains or weaves where the character would be unable to cast such a weave

Just a few thoughs

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OgierSedai
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posted June 06, 2003 05:11 PM      Profile for OgierSedai      Edit/Delete Post
Snow Crash:

I really like that idea/formula for the fatigue on channeling.

On the note of Talents; Since RJ writes them as being a broad range of variations of power within a person, I think the effects of a weave should be determined on the area that they can effect.

But I'm pretty new to the weave system, I'll have to learn more and maybe get a crazy idea for how to modify the talent/affinity system in my sleep.

[ June 06, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: OgierSedai ]

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candyman
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posted June 06, 2003 06:38 PM      Profile for candyman      Edit/Delete Post
I think that the best way would be to do away with the talents except for ones like dreamer,foreteller, sniffer, treesinger, old blood,and viewer. And just dividing the weaves into affinities. The way that you would gain access to the higher level weaves would be through using lower level weaves of that affinity. And in order to use multiaffinity weaves you would have to have built up your levels in each of the affinitiesLike to use lightning you would have to have a certain # of levels of each affinity built up. You would still have to learn it in the normal manner however. The purpose of the extra affinity feat would be just to make it so that you could cast a weave from that affinity with a lower # of levels in that affinity. That would make it so that all the spells that use multiple Affinities are harder to cast than those that just use one. What do y'all think about this.

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"Time to toss the dice." Matrim Cauthon

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Duloth
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posted June 06, 2003 08:20 PM      Profile for Duloth   Email Duloth    Edit/Delete Post
Mmm. I prefer skill-based magic. *points at his sig*

If you want to use something more official than my own thing, take a gander at Deadlands d20. Leave the spells, leave the levels, but each spell simply requires a DC: 15 + 2* spell level skill check to cast. If a spell has multiple elements, then use the average of the skill ranks.

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-D
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candyman
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posted June 06, 2003 09:49 PM      Profile for candyman      Edit/Delete Post
I dont know. I just don't see how they would be able to weave a level 6 fireball if they havent even learned to light a candle.

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"Time to toss the dice." Matrim Cauthon

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MT
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posted June 07, 2003 01:20 AM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
Just to update my thoughts on this, I've been writing out a OP system that is defined only by the Five Powers, Threads, and Strength.

Looking at all we know of channeling from the books, I assumed weaves work like this:

Distinguishing aspects of weaves:
  • Which of the five powers are used to make them.
  • The number of threads of each power required.
  • The size of those threads (strength).
Thus channelers are defined by:
  • How many threads they can handle (skill).
  • Overall strength.
  • Strength in each Power.
Basic weaves are those that only use one Power to channel (Air, Water, etc). Complex weaves would use multiple Powers and/or require more threads to weave.
For example, say you wanted a puff of wind to blow out a candle. That only requires 1 Thread of Air, and a Strength of 1. Now say you want to weave hurricane winds at a building. It still only requires 1 Thread, because the weave isn't any more complex, it's still just pushing air around, but it might require a Strength of 50. Now if you wanted to get more complicated and pick something up with Air, that might require 5 Threads. Then to pick up a 5 lb. object would require a Strength of 1, where as to pick up a building would require a Strength of 50; though still the same basic weave that you used to blow out the candle.

Another example, say you want to heal someone. That uses Air, Water, and Spirit. It's more complex so it uses more threads. Thus to channel a healing weave, you must be able to handle 5 Air Threads, 5 Water Threads, and 10 Spirit Threads. It might then take a Strength of 5 to heal a simple cut, a Strength of 25 to remove a poison, and a Strength of 50 to reattach a limb.

Unlike the basic Air weave, this requires 20 Threads over three Powers. That means channelers who can't handle 10 Spirit threads will be unable to weave a heal. It also requires a lot of strength to do anything beyond basic stabilization, so those who are skilled (can handle many Threads) but are weak in the power can only do so much.

This is a little more skill based, where Threads of the Five Powers are your skills, and your Strength is your "level".

The numbers I've chosen here are arbitrary. That's the main hurdle in designing this system is to balance the numbers. I'm thinking if you get Strength by rolling a d10/level, that would make lvl 1 channelers Strength average to 5 and lvl 20 average to 100. Threads would be given out at 5 / lvl, so at 1st lvl, you could choose to handle 1 thread in all five Powers, or 5 threads in one Power.

Add to this feats you can take that would increase your Threads in a Power or your Strength in a Power, so as to allow for more distinction among which channelers are good at what.

If I go with these numbers, then I have to design every single weave so that basic weaves can be cast by anyone (1-5 Threads) and powerful weaves can only be cast at hire levels (20-50 Threads). It becomes a balancing/play testing issue at that point. I think the foundation of making the one power system based on skill in the Powers (threads you can handle at once) and Strength in the OP (level based), better reflects the books, and also makes it so you don't have to learn 5 separate simple Air weaves. Once you know the basic weave, you just add Threads and Strength to do more complex things.

Again, I haven't playtested this, nor even thought it all the way through, but it seems like it will work in principle.

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OgierSedai
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posted June 07, 2003 07:32 PM      Profile for OgierSedai      Edit/Delete Post
I like your idea MT, it seems to have a lot of potential for something more distinct.

How should weaves be organized though? By rarity/commonality? Or still under talents? Or by the affinities they require?

I thought about making affinities skill based for my game, kind of like the GRUPS spell system, but I'd rather not.

If there's anything I might be able to do to help let me know.

my emails, rickhunter_vf1j@yahoo.com

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O

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MT
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posted June 07, 2003 09:45 PM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by OgierSedai:
How should weaves be organized though? By rarity/commonality? Or still under talents? Or by the affinities they require?

They aren't really categorized at all (Talents are gone), but are simply defined by the number of Threads of each Power it requires to cast them.

Manipulate Air is Air (1, 5, 10, etc.)
Manipulate Fire is Fire (1, 5, 10, etc.)
Heal is Air (5), Water (5), Spirit (10)
Balefire is Air (15), Water (15), Fire (15), Earth (15), Spirit (15)

Again, these are arbitraty numbers until the whole system is finalized. Strength would then be the variable of how much you could do with each weave. Feats can be used to increase your skill in individual Powers and your Strength in individual Powers.

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OgierSedai
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posted June 07, 2003 09:56 PM      Profile for OgierSedai      Edit/Delete Post
I thought about the starting strength points on determining them for the system you're devising. (I know the values can still change through playtesting and such.)

For determining strength points at character creation and at each level, do the d10 roll, and also add your 2 class specific ability modifiers together and divide by 2(rounded up.) Add the result to your d10 roll.

EG: Salimtair is a Borderlander Initiate with a Wisdom of 14 and an Intelligence of 15. 2+2=4/2=2, her d10 roll was a 9. so she gets 11 points to start with and spend on threads.

What do you think? It's my first time doing something like this so I'm pretty new to making up rules and the like.
I've begun work on converting the weaves into strength values for threads, I'll write some down here tomorrow.

--------------------
O

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MT
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posted June 08, 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for MT      Edit/Delete Post
That's similar to what I was thinking, but you're partially confusing things. Channelers have two aspects for channeling: skill with Threads and Strength in the OP.

Thread Skill is a flat number of points assigned every level. I'm toying with 5/lvl + Wis mod right now. For each Talent Skill Point you get, you assign it to one of the 5 Powers. So at first level (5 + 0 in this example), you can have one Thread Skill Point in Air, Water, Fire, Earth, and Spirit; or put all five points in one Power. In addition, to match the books, Women would start with 5 points in Air, Water, and Spirit; and Men would start with 5 points in Fire, Earth, and Spirit.

This would give characters a minimum of 5 skill points at first level, 50 at tenth level, and 100 at 20th. Given this, a weave that requires 20 threads in all five powers can only be channeled by a 20th level character (the Wis mod and channeling feats would lower this though).

Also, a weave that requires 21+ threads in one of the Powers would require that the character specialize in the Power. For instance, making heartstone could require 30 Threads of Earth and 20 of Fire. That would require a channeler to sacrifice Thread Skill Points in one of the Powers to specialize in Earth.

Strength in the One Power determines how powerful you can make a weave. I'm thinking d10 + Int Mod / level. This would average (with +0 mod) to 5 at first, 50 at 10th, and 100 at 20th. So if you want a 1st level channeler to be able to cast a weave, you want the Strength requirement 5 or lower. This is because when you cast a weave, you subtract the Strength required from your Strength Points. Thus if a character has 5 points and they can cast one weave that uses 5 points, or five weaves that require 1 Strength Point. Resting for 6 hours returns your Strength Points to you.

Unless they overchannel. Overchanneling is casting a weave that requires more Strength Points than you currently have. Similar to the current system, there are two types of overchanneling: 1. Channeling a weave that you can normally cast if you hadn't used up your Strength Points for the day already. 2. Channeling a weave that you couldn't normally cast even if you had all your Strength Points. I haven't thought of how to resolve these situations, but I assume Concentration DCs and Fortitude saves will work, but saying you can take subdual damage in place of Strength Points is interesting.

Assuming these are the numbers I go with, from here on out, it's a matter of designing the Weaves and how many Threads and how much Strength it takes for each one. Complicated weaves should require more threads and power effects should require more Strength. You have to consider things like if you want channelers to be able to weave some form of healing at 1st level, and at what level do you want a channeler to be able to cast Restore the Power. Then you write up every weave, playtest it all, and viola.

[ June 08, 2003, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: MT ]

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