Author
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Topic: Channelers
Balanced? |
AvaronGansdell
Member Member # 56181
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posted January 22, 2003 10:40 AM
No Not if
channelers are balanced to non channelers but if the two
standard channeler classes are balanced to each
other.
both have the same BAB both have two saves at
+12 and one at +9 (though I find it odd that a wilder who is
suppose to over channel alot has a weaker fort
save)
after that they split Wilder gets better HD by
a bit and slightly better defense bonuses wilders also
at lower level get access to higher level spells faster and
have greater numbers of low level spells. Wilders also must
use a feat to remove there block.
Initites get many
more channeling feats they also get greater numbers of high
level spells and learn more weaves per level.
all in
all I belive Initites get the greater bonuse more feats are
very important in a magic system where your access to spells
is baced on the feats you have. and there ability to cast more
high level spells is very powerful.
Wilders may have
many low level spells but those are the spells that most
channelers get bonus spells for anyways.
Any notes?
comments? exc?
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Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
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posted January 22, 2003 11:30 AM
Initiates
come out in the lead by 10-13 level before that it is a trade
off.
BTB multi wilder/init are so unbalanced it is
retarded. A true munckin
combo.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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TheOnePowerman5000 Member Member
# 75426
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posted January 22, 2003 11:34 AM
Wilders
definitely win out at lower levels with overchanneling bonuses
and more weaves in their weaves per day chart. If you notice,
most wilders in the series turn into initiates or Aes Sedai or
whatever their race's respective channeling PrC is. Thus,
wilders and initiates are balanced.
Also, you must
realize that overchanneling bonus is a big plus for the
wilder. Overchanneling is big! You can use it to boost your
weaves levels higher than normal, complete mundane tasks
without using a weave slot, the list continues... This,
coupled with the extra slots and universal affinities for a
few weave levels makes the initiate almost weaker than the
wilder. However, the block is a balancing factor to a degree.
Also, initiates are likely to know far more weaves than
wilders (they are trained formally, thus they will know almost
every low-level weave available), whereas the wilders only
know a limited number of weaves until they begin their formal
training. Personally, I like roleplaying wilders more than
initiates.
And to reply to Eosin, just don't let your
players multiclass between wilder and initiate! It doesn't
really make sense to let them; it was very hard for Nynaeve to
learn things differently at the tower when she went there, and
she still had her block (the book also stats her out as a
wilder... I think...).
[ January 22, 2003, 11:38
AM: Message edited by: TheOnePowerman5000
]
-------------------- I don't really like
Powerman5000, I just thought the name was clever.
From:
Harwinton, CT | Registered: Apr 2002
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted January 22, 2003 11:40 AM
It is true
that about level 10 the roles of Wilder and Initiate general
bad ass is switched. But what is better than both the wilder
and the initiate is a Wilder/Initiate. Because you have to
have 5 levels before you can take a prestige class
(concentration 8 ranks) you can get all the feat prereqs for
Asha'man by level 3 (wilder 1/Initiate 2, and still have
eliminate block at level 3, thus Wilder is first) so you have
2 more levels to gain either other classes if there are other
prereqs or more likely two more levels of Initiate to gain
another channeler feat. Example: Level 1: (Wilder 1) For
Asha'man Dedicated you could take Sword Proficiency at level 1
wilder. You also get a Talent and an Affinity. Level 2:
(W1/I1) Since you took a level of Initiate you get another
talent and another Affinity (look at the White Tower FAQ) and
as an Initiate 1 you get a bonus channeling feat: So that can
be either tie of weave or multiweave. Level 3: (W1/I2)
Another Bonus channeling feat! So that is the other one of the
one above. And since it is level 3 you get a free-choice feat
so take eliminate block Or you could reverse the sword
proficiency with this one at level 1! Level 5: (W1/I4)
Bonus Channeling Feat: Were you looking at that other talent
or affinity? well you can take it! Level 6: Congratulation
you have earned the Gold Dragon.
That wasn't so bad was
it? Same thing for Aes Sedai though, but while they don't need
the sword, they still have to take 5 class levels (to get to a
max skill rank of 8) before they can take the PrC.
And
yes Wilder/Initiates are munchkins... but who doesn't
munchkin. I however am a strong believer that Initiates
shouldn't be able to take Wilder are a class unless they are
going to swear off their tradition (sort of like, once an
Initiate there is no turning back, but if you do, you can't
turn around again).
[ January 22, 2003, 11:45
AM: Message edited by: JosephKell
]
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
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From:
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Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
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posted January 22, 2003 11:52 AM
I do not. I
do realize that some people in the books should be
Wilder/Initiates. If someone has not done the math and is
asking questions, gm to gm, a warning that 90% of all mc
wilder/init are tricking the character out in a time honored
munckin way is approp.
I would be curious if anybody
has done a side by side comparison (listing all relevant class
abilities) beyond 8th level (where I stopped). Even more
interesting would be wilder vs init vs wild/init - I never did
that one to see how bad it was, other that understanding that
all the way to the molecular level it was a hosed
combination.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
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posted January 22, 2003 11:56 AM
Oh yea,
overchanneling is not that big. Init have good fort save and
wilders have average fort saves. wilders only have +3 by 5-6th
level and since the init has 4 more feats and 30 more skill
points at that level, burning a feat for great fort is not
such a big deal.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted January 22, 2003 12:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Eosin_the_Red: Oh
yea, overchanneling is not that big. Init have good fort
save and wilders have average fort saves. wilders only have
+3 by 5-6th level and since the init has 4 more feats and 30
more skill points at that level, burning a feat for great
fort is not such a big deal.
Don't forget Skill Emphasis Concentration, which is
probably better anyway, as your concentration check is easier
and if you succeed at it you don't risk the other ugly side
effects.
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
California | Registered: Aug 2002 |
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mrtauntaun
Member Member # 96539
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posted January 22, 2003 12:53 PM
To put a
balance on the Wilder/Initiate thingie, in my campaign once
you become an initiate, you can not go back to being a Wilder.
Also, you key ability for weaves changes from wisdom to
intelligence. So sure, you get 2 free feats effectively, but
my characters have to decide whether it's worth it to them.
Registered:
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted January 22, 2003 12:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mrtauntaun: To put a
balance on the Wilder/Initiate thingie, in my campaign once
you become an initiate, you can not go back to being a
Wilder. Also, you key ability for weaves changes from wisdom
to intelligence. So sure, you get 2 free feats effectively,
but my characters have to decide whether it's worth it to
them.
I am assuming you mean if the tradition
responsibilities are worth the class. And I won't state my
opinion (but if you look at the Joseph character at
Wotmania.com you will probably see where my channeler
lies)
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
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Kirath
O'Larthen Member Member
# 39497
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posted January 22, 2003 01:11 PM
I think
that everything makes sense as it is with the two classes.
Sure, the initiate starts over powering the wilder at higher
levels, but this really only reflects what happens in the
novels anyway (and that's what WoT if for, to be a rpg
reflecting what's in the books). The wilder represents
learning something on your own, while initiates are learning
under training and guidance(not on their own). Both are good
in their own way, but in the long run initiates do better,
because after all, being taught something helps you learn more
quickly and better than on your own. So are they
unbalanced? Well, if someone wanted to be a straight out 20th
level wilder, yes, but the wilder most often (probably more
often than any other class) will multiclass into something
else (Aes Sedai, initiate, even armsman, etc.) which is what
they should do (and what they do in the novels.) So the
unbalance between the two characters doesn't really
hurt the game. After all, if they were completely the same,
why would anyone in WoT want to go through the pain and hassle
of being a novice and accepted for several years when they are
just as good on their own?
From:
Springfield, MO | Registered: Aug 2001
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Zellberg
Member Member # 114588
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posted January 22, 2003 10:55 PM
Wilders
also get a +5 bonus for the Fort rolls when they fail
overchanneling
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Eosin_the_Red
Member Member # 30113
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posted January 22, 2003 11:40 PM
quote:
Don't
forget Skill Emphasis Concentration
Good call.
quote:
you can
not go back to being a Wilder
Why would you want to? The deed has been done, so to
speak. You get two feats, keep your overchanneling bonus, Keep
the ability to channel outside your talent, get weavesight,
bump 2 of your saving throws by 2 points, and get bonus weaves
from 3 stats instead of 2. In exchange you spend 1 feat and
switch to the initiate spells per day chart. Why would you
want to go back?
PS - I would make them keep wisdom as
the prime channeling abilty - it limits the min maxing on
skill points.
quote:
Wilders
also get a +5 bonus for the Fort rolls when they fail
overchanneling
But their Fort saves are average and the Initiates are
good. It minimizes the advantage.
Some have
misunderstood my first point: speaking to the stats alone -
the first few levels are a toss up between which is better and
it will depend on how you want to play the game. By sixth
level the Initiate is clearly pulling ahead and by 10th to
13th the Wilder is a joke. Don't believe me, do the math.
I might look to see how badly the init+wilder chews up
the other two.
-------------------- Call of the
Horn Visit the Tower Library for the latest version of the
WOT RPG FAQ.
From:
Norman, OK, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Melriken
Member Member # 48882
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posted January 23, 2003 12:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JosephKell: Level 3:
(W1/I2) Another Bonus channeling feat! So that is the other
one of the one above. And since it is level 3 you get a
free-choice feat so take eliminate block Or you could
reverse the sword proficiency with this one at level
1!
actually as per 'official' rules for a wilder to take
initiate levels doesnt the character have to already have the
'eliminate block' feat? that would mean that you have to take
it at level one.
now some house rules that I
have: 1: If a Wilder joins an order (say Aes Sedai) then
they can take levels in that PrC they dont need Initiate (and
may NOT take it), if an Initiate leaves thier order, well then
they cant take levels in that PrC (and dont gain the ability
to take levels in Wilder). This rule is also known as the One
Base Channeling Class rule.
2: you may NOT take
Eliminate block before you are Wilder level 2. you must suffer
with the block in play for atleast one level (say a character
who is armsman 1, multi to wilder for character level 2 and 3,
thus taking eliminate block as thier level 3 feat).
The
one consession I am ever willing to make to an wilder turn
initiate is that if a player decides that thier character
should really be an initiate (or is an initiate and should be
a wilder) and that change fits with the way they roleplay the
character then I will let them exchange ALL levels in one
class for an equal number of levels in the other, if this
results in a net loss of feats then they must lose the feats,
if it disqualifys them for a feat they may chose a new one
(like wilder turn initiate who already took eliminate block).
This change would have to happen at level 2 or 3 (possibly 4,
but no later). I may be a strict GM, but my players seem to
like the way I run games.
-------------------- The
prior post is in no way intended to represent the thoughts
and/or opinions of the author. Read at your own
risk.
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Nov 2001 | IP: Logged
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Friend of the
Dork Member Member
# 58798
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posted January 23, 2003 06:20 AM
Yeah,
wilder/initiate is the most munchkin combo, no doubt, but i
think it is context with the books. You always hear that
Wilders who become initates and then Aes Sedai are generally
stronger than pure initiate ones, to the initiate's dismay.
However, the initiates control the traditions of the
Tower, as well as the attitudes. Aes Sedai and Accepted
generally dislike and look down on Wilders as untrained.
This attitude is said to stem from envy, and in many
cases that may be right, but it might also be that Wilders
have not really parted with the outside world and learned the
spirit and traditions of the Tower, and generally have less
respect for the tradition.
In any case, multiclassing
between the classes should IMHO be the result of a Wilder
wanting to be Aes Sedai. They should have to spend a lot of
time doing this, less time than the usual 5-10 years, yet the
Nyneave frebee entrance to acceptance was simply because she
had the most potental ever in the Tower. The wannabe
initiate might give up as well, as she walks from the freedom
she has experienced with the adventure group to scrubbing
floors and being little more than a servant, while not being
allowed to channel half as often as she wishes.
Yet if
she is sincere and shows the right spirit, she will be able to
step through the three arches ter'angreal, and if she dares to
enter it the character in question should be warned of the
danger and you could also ask the player "You have to make
three consecutive will saves of rising difficulty. If you fail
any you can make a new character." Not to mention having to
swear the three Oaths one day which seriously limits you.
Should put of most munchkins ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Channelers Balanced_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Darkfriend,
Darkfriend, what'ya gonna do? a what'ya gonna do when they
come for you....
From:
Norway | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP:
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted January 23, 2003 10:49 AM
actually
the rule about eliminate block is that you must have it as or
before you take wilder from initiate, if you go from wilder to
initiate however you can take eliminate block whenever you
feel no not having to use a standard action to make a
composure check. And it is level 3 for females, not level
2.
-------------------- Instant Message me @ JonERPG
on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
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