Author
|
Topic: (***Spoilers
from CoT***) New Rules for CoT |
Elsbon
Member Member # 25397
|
posted February 19, 2003 11:21 PM
Hello
all!
First, an apology to anyone that hadn't finished
Crossroads in Twilight and read the original post. I can only
plead forgetfulness.
So, *please*, don't read any
further if you don't want to see any
spoilers.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Phew...well, with that out of the way, we'll continue
my original post:
Been a little slow around here
recently. Our 2nd campaign has been proceeding nicely, so I
stop by frequently just to see everyone's nifty ideas (to
suggest to my GM)
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has
considered some rules for the new material that appeared last
book, specifically, 1) checking for resonance, and 2) making
heartstone (I'm not looking up the old tongue spelling! )
The first seems like there's a couple of
different ways of going about it: 1) Make it a feat 2)
Make it a weave (what talent?)
I don't recall
specifically from Crossroads: can all the Aes Sedai do it,
just not very well? Or is it more like sensing residue (rare
but not unheard of)?
Second, anyone have a write-up for
making heartstone? Should this go into an existing talent,
like Earth Singing, or get it's own talent?
[
February 21, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Elsbon
]
From:
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Snow Crash
Member Member # 85099
|
posted February 20, 2003 05:19 AM
It seems to
me that sensing for resonance is a lot more common than sense
residue. There was one bit int the book when the yellow sister
said "By the time I got there 7 others had already tested for
resonance"
There for I would make it a weave. Probably
have all five affiinities as you don't know which you might be
testing for, and maybe a warding talent. Probably about 3rd
level and common. That would be my thought anyway.
As
for the heartstone I personally would leave that as a NPC
weave. Give the ability to make heartstone to a PC and they
would quickly become too wealthy.
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
|
posted February 20, 2003 05:33 AM
SPoiler If you have not finished Crossroads
of Twilight this post may spoil some elements of the book for
you. Read at your own
risk
* * * * * * * * * * *
I
would think that even if you made it a weave you could easily
control it. Consider that the only way to find out how to do
it would be 1)you must be with the Salidar Aes Sedai. 2)from
the looks of things in the books, anybody with the ability
(i.e. -the talents, strength and affinities necessary) gets
shanghied into the Cuendillar sweatshop the Amryllian has
going on....no choice in the matter (even full sisters were
having to do it).
Men could not learn the weave from
watching, and female channelers are probably not going to
describe how it was made so they could figure it out.
I
have created the weave for Craft: Cuendillar, if anyone is
interested in my adaptation of that weave, let me
know.
P.S. - You might want to consider adding
possible spoiler to the title of this thread to prevent
somebody from wandering in who has not finished the book. I
accidentaly mentioned something about Heartstone to somebody I
know before he was finished sometime back and still feel bad
about it .
[ February 20, 2003, 05:45 AM:
Message edited by: Xythlord
]
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted February 20, 2003 11:43 AM
Putting it
in Earth Singing would make a lot of sense, in the books male
channelers seem to be able to know when Saidar is being
grasped. So if it were a talent using both Earth, Fire, and
Spirit would make men better at
sensing.
-------------------- Instant Message me @
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Dave Shramek
Member Member # 107902
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posted February 20, 2003 01:20 PM
Yeah,
Egwene is hyper good at Earth, which is probably why she's so
good at making Cuendillar. I'd put it as a high level part of
the Earth Singing talent (that's the one with delving,
right?)
Anyway, it's just a weave, but it requires
Concentration checks to keep doing it for the hours it'd take
most people. The higher level the weave, the faster it goes. I
wouldn't do a Craft check as it's the blacksmiths who are
making the iron prototypes. However, I'd make whatever needed
to be turned to cuendillar to be masterwork or
better.
With regards to checking for resonance, I
believe it's a weave, so I'd put it in the detection Talents
or something primarily Spirit based. Perhaps
wards.
-------------------- As always, I cower in
ignorance, awaiting a response.
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted February 20, 2003 06:11 PM
Well they
said that metal in contact with metal would fuse, so you would
have an hard time making armor. Shields I can see,
breastplates: maybe. But you won't see many Mail shirts. The
armor would have to be make with all the holes and in the form
of the outcome before you change it, as far as I know, you
can't bend Cuellendar.
-------------------- Instant
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
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posted February 21, 2003 12:07 AM
Apparently
any iron object can be used, assuming its of decent quality.
(Not necesarily masterwork; apparently any object made as well
as a silver object would do.)
Any armor would be
possible.. but the more pieces in the armor, the harder it
would be. To make chain, you'd have to have a bunch of strings
set up to suspend the rings, so that each ring, as you made
it, was out of contact with all of the other rings. (Multiply
the amount of time taken to do it to any armor with multiple
parts, or designed to move, by 20, and increase the DC, if
there is one, by 5. Its not so much harder as incredibly
time-consuming.)
Now, the thing is.. making armor out
of it wouldn't be that big a benefit. Remember, armor is
normally assumed not to break when its hit, and the reason it
provides an AC bonus instead of reducing damage is because it
'deflects' attacks rather than stopping them, making them not
hurt you. Weapons deal more damage if heavier.. not tougher..
so making them out of it wouldn't give any great benefit,
aside from having an unbreakable sword.
The best value
is for sale.. which, for a male channeler, becomes incredibly
dangerous, and can quickly lead to capture by the Aes Sedai if
someone finds out he makes it.(As rare as it is, SOMEONE will
find out if he sells more than one piece). and for a female
channeler, means the white tower or the rebels will probably
grab her up and put her to work, either teaching others or
mass-producing it.
Basically.. its not unbalancing to
put in the game, because the risks selling it carries is
enourmous, and the advantages of using items made out of it
isn't that great.
(A possible idea: Light armor gets a
+1 bonus, medium a +2, and Heavy a +3, if made from it, while
weapons receive no bonus other than being unbreakable, or
possibly a +1 bonus from balance. (stacks with masterwork, so
you could get a +2 to hit with it if it were both masterwork
and made of
this))
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep! Not
just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
Undead Armies foundation, member 000 (Thats right, Not even
I'm a member)
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Snow Crash
Member Member # 85099
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posted February 21, 2003 06:25 AM
I don't
ever remember stories of weapons being made from heartstone.
Maybe the act of makimg it makes it difficult to
sharpen.
Like I said I don't remember any stories of it
being used to make a weapon and you would think they would
have used it during the age of legends if it was able.
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Heron_Marked_Blade Member Member
# 110617
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posted February 21, 2003 08:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Snow Crash: I don't
ever remember stories of weapons being made from heartstone.
Maybe the act of makimg it makes it difficult to
sharpen.
Like I said I don't remember any stories of
it being used to make a weapon and you would think they
would have used it during the age of legends if it was
able.
I agree. The process was available when the War broke
out, so if it was feasible to use cuendillar in weaponry I
assume it would have been. Instead, they came up with a
different process to make Power-Wrought swords (I think it had
to do with using the Power while the weapon was being forged
to give it that undullable(?) edge, not changing the hardness
of an already-made item).
I see Cuendillar as similar
to unbreakable fine porcelain, and honestly can't remember
ever seeing an object in the books that was made out of
cuendillar and had a sharp edge. It may have had to do with
the fact that the cuendillar process uses iron rather than
steel?
-------------------- "Suravye ninto manshima
taishite."
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
|
posted February 21, 2003 10:27 AM
Or perhaps
theres an even better reason weapons aren't made out of it.
Maybe, despite its incredible toughness, its actually lighter
than the iron it was made out of? If that were true, then
while it'd be good for armor, it'd be horrible for weapons.
The lighter the weapon, the less damage it does. Its the same
reason they used lead for bullets instead of something like
bronze or copper; the lead weighs more, and is more
effective.
If you assumed that to be the case, then a
weapon made from it would get a penalty to damage... maybe
treat it as one size smaller weapon(I.E: A longsword would do
shortsword damage)? And a bonus to hit?
And guess
what... theres another, even BETTER reason why the Aes Sedai
won't make weapons out of it.
"I will speak no word
that is not true. I will make no weapon with which one man may kill
another. I will never use the one power as a weapon, except
against shadowspawn or in the last extreme defense of an Aes
Sedai's life or a warder's."
This explains why they
don't today.. but why didn't they back
then?
Power-Wrought Blades. What is a power-wrought
blade? Unbreakable. Never needs sharpening. Extremely well
made.
Get the word?
Read it again.
'Unbreakable.'. Whats the most important description of
HeartStone? Its a fine white material that is completely
unbreakable, aside from by balefire. Maybe.. just maybe..
these swords are actually made of a different form of
HeartStone? Or the process to make them is similar?
But
then again.. if the power-wrought swords AREN'T made of it, or
something similar, they STILL give the reason weapons were
never made from it; it must have been easier for them, at the
time, to make power-wrought weapons, and these power-wrought
weapons were exactly the same or better than any that could be
made from heartstone.
Basically, if your willing to
give them the weave, let them make weapons or armor out of it.
But if they try to make chain mail, don't tell them the way to
do it; make them figure it out
themselves.
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep!
Not just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
Undead Armies foundation, member 000 (Thats right, Not even
I'm a member)
From:
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted February 21, 2003 01:51 PM
Here's what
I came up with for the campaign I'm in:
Earth
Singing
Create Cuendillar Level: 0 and
up Affinities: Earth, Fire, Air Casting Time: 1
round Duration: Special
This weave creates from iron
cuendillar, the nearly indestructible substance known more
commonly as heartstone. Unlike most weaves, creating
cuendillar is not harder without all three needed affinities;
it is impossible. The creator must also have the Multiweave
feat, as the creation of cuendillar requires two seperate but
interdependent weaves.
To create cuendillar, an object
must first be made from iron, patterned, shaped and chased as
desired. All shaping of the iron *must* be done before the
weave is begun, since it is absolutely impossible to reshape
cuendillar. Once the item has been shaped, the weaves must be
set on it and held; the object need not be changed in a single
session. Unlike most weaves of greater than instant duration,
create cuendillar cannot be tied off, only maintained. In the
course of an hour, the channeler can create a base of ten
grams of cuendillar per point of relevant ability modifier
(Int & Wis for Initiates, Wis & Cha for Wilders, all
three for wilder/initiate multiclass), times the square of the
sum of the channeler's level and the level of weave used.
Novices and zero level weaves are counted as level 1/8. Thus,
the weakest Novice capable of actually using the weave could
transmute 1.25 grams in an hour (about a fourth of a cubic
inch), and the strongest channeler yet seen to do so could
transmute about 550 kilograms in that same time.
As a
substance, cuendillar has a hardness of 250, 50 hit points per
gram, and any damage done after hardness is added to its hit
points, to a maximum of twice its original hit points. After
that point, damage done is subtracted normally. When subjected
to any damaging effect, cuendillar is always assumed to make
its saving throw.
Heartstone weapons should be
considered equivalent to +2 (for weapons that do up to 1d6) or
+3 (for weapons that do more than 1d6), with the Keen ability
if applicable, and a heartstone shield equivalent to +3.
Heartstone armour, if it could be obtained at all, would be
considered +3, +4, or +5 for light, medium or heavy armour
respectively, with the light, moderate or heavy fortification
ability as described in the D&D Dungeon Master's Guide. On
the other side, it should be kept in mind that such weapons
and armour would be almost incomprehensibly valuable; a sword
could buy a medium sized town, and a suit of full plate the
entire nation of Tear, with change due. The drawbacks of such
gear should be fairly obvious.
Side note: I worked it
out, and by my calculations, a mail shirt would take nine
weeks to change, assuming an eight hour work day and a six day
work week. There are a *lot* of rings in a
shirt...
Second side note: Yes, the hardness and hit
points are insane. So's the substance.
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Dave Shramek
Member Member # 107902
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posted February 21, 2003 01:59 PM
Yeah, a
chain shirt would require the weave to be made on each ring
individually. Place a ring, change it. Make a new ring, rivet
it to the cuendillar rings, change it. Repeat.
Looong
time. Probably 5-20 times longer than making a normal chain
shirt considering that every ring has to be individually
processed into cuendillar.
With regards to the spell, I
like it. But the formula could use some simplification or be
written out. Plus translate it to lbs as that's what's in the
book (I think).
-------------------- As always, I
cower in ignorance, awaiting a response.
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted February 21, 2003 02:25 PM
The
formula's a bit complex, I admit, but it's intended to
represent the huge range we see in the book so a squared term
is necessary. This is also why I used grams instead of ounces
or pounds: To handle the low end gracefully. That, and I don't
know how many grams there are to a US ounce. (28.37 grams=1
Imperial ounce, but an Imperial ounce isn't the same as a US
ounce)
As for a mail shirt or other multi-part object,
I see no reason it couldn't be made first, then changed piece
by piece; the weave only fused the goblets and the links of
the harbour chain because they were subjected to the same
weave at the same time. Of course, it's still going to take a
pretty fair while to change any complex object.
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Dave Shramek
Member Member # 107902
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posted February 21, 2003 02:58 PM
16 ounces
to a pound, and 2.2 pounds per kilogram. Thus 28.41 grams per
ounce.
-------------------- As always, I cower in
ignorance, awaiting a response.
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Heron_Marked_Blade Member Member
# 110617
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posted February 21, 2003 07:46 PM
I still
don't know that I agree with cuendillar weapons. I don't see
why channelers in the Age of Legends had to come up with a way
to Power-forge swords if they could have just mass-produced
iron swords and turned them into
cuendillar.
-------------------- "Suravye ninto
manshima taishite."
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted February 21, 2003 08:14 PM
During the
Age of Legends, they still had Shock Lances, so they didn't
need Power Wrought weapons (or cuendillar weapons). After the
breaking, it is possible that those who knew the making of
cuendillar had all died, or gone mad. This left aligning the
matrix, which is an entirely different process and doesn't
require the high level of strength in earth (compared to
cuendillar). This last part is ofcourse speculation drawn from
what little we have been told. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards (Spoilers from CoT) New Rules for CoT (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
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Fahkrin
Member Member # 89533
|
posted February 21, 2003 11:04 PM
I have to
say that I don't agree in making weapons and armor out of
cuellenar (sp?) either.
But I can't agree that all the
AS strong enough to create it died during the War of Power or
the Breaking. The AS who survived the Breaking were strong
enough to create a ter'angreal in Far Madding able to
duplicate the stedding and there were male AS powerful
enough to be able to create The Ways.
There were AS
able to create cuellanar after the Breaking. So why don't we
see weapons and armor? Before the WOP, weapons were rare at
best. During the war of power, there were better things an AS
could do with his time and power. Think of the Power wrought
weapons as officer's weapons. A ceullanar weapon would be a
High General or Field Marshal's secondary weapon; so rare as
to easily be missed even after all this time. During the
Breaking, the same thing. Its easy to justify the loss of
weaves which required skills in Five Powers which weren't most
common in women. All you have to do is suddenly drop the Earth
affinity and....there it goes.
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
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posted February 22, 2003 06:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fahkrin: But I can't
agree that all the AS strong enough to create it died during
the War of Power or the Breaking.
What I said was that it is possible that those
who knew the making of cuendillar may have all died
durring the breaking. I don't think that it had anything to do
with those surviving not being strong enough to. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards (Spoilers from CoT) New Rules for CoT (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Snow Crash
Member Member # 85099
|
posted February 22, 2003 07:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Shramek: Yeah, a
chain shirt would require the weave to be made on each ring
individually. Place a ring, change it. Make a new ring,
rivet it to the cuendillar rings, change it.
Repeat.
Looong time. Probably 5-20 times longer than
making a normal chain shirt considering that every ring has
to be individually processed into cuendillar.
With
regards to the spell, I like it. But the formula could use
some simplification or be written out. Plus translate it to
lbs as that's what's in the book (I think).
Why would it have to be done on each ring individually.
In the book Egwene does it on an entire chain crossing the
northbridge harbour. Not one link at a time.
PS does
anybody know why she did this. Why would the people besieging
Tar Valon want to give them an indestructable chain accross
the habour.
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
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posted February 22, 2003 08:16 AM
According
to RJ, when more than one item are done simultaneously, the
objects fuse together. The same occured with the chain,
preventing it from being lowered or raised. The chain is now a
permanent blockaide for the harbor. If the process was used
for any other multiple piece object, the objects would fuse in
like manner, losing all flexibility. While a piece of plate
armor may be workable as a single piece of cuendillar,
chainmail would not be feasible except as JK described or if
it is possible to set the weaves on a single link at a time,
while the mail is fully assembled. Though even the weakest
sisters with the ability may be able to complete a single link
at a time faster than any single large object... just
speculation.
edit: It just occurred to me, the
whitebridge may be a cuendillar structure made with fine
pieces of iron strung together barely able to support itself
until it was turned. Nobody mentioned it in any of the novels,
and it is a possibility....which if true destroyed my
speculation that those able to make cuendillar died by the end
of the breaking. ![[Big Grin]](Wizards_Com Boards (Spoilers from CoT) New Rules for CoT (1)_fichiers/biggrin.gif)
[ February 22, 2003, 08:22 AM: Message
edited by: aleshandre
]
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted February 22, 2003 12:41 PM
The nine
weeks figure I came up with for a mail shirt was based on the
assumption that you can change a multipart item into
cuendillar without fusing it, if you change one piece at a
time. I can see no theoretical reason why this should not be
possible; can anyone else? Remember that Egwene set the weaves
on the harbour chain as a whole, not individual
links.
As for the Whitebridge, it's repeatedly
described as being of an unknown, glassy substance. If it were
of cuendillar, it would not be unidentified; there were many
imperishable substances available in the AoL. Presumably, the
Whitebridge was made of one such, either before or after the
Breaking. Remember that the founders of the Tower, as detailed
in the BWB, Stilled large numbers of channelers to ensure
their monopoly on the One Power, and thereby almost certainly
destroyed a great deal of knowledge concerning the Power.
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Duloth
Member Member # 34440
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posted February 22, 2003 03:23 PM
Note: My
method for making chain mail, since metal touching other metal
makes it fuse, is to hang the chain mail up, and support the
chains around a given one by string.. then you do that ring.
Move on to the next one... Long and complex
process/
-------------------- -D Nyarlathotep!
Not just for breakfast anymore.
Let Necromancers make
Undead Armies foundation, member 000 (Thats right, Not even
I'm a member)
From:
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Elsbon
Member Member # 25397
|
posted February 22, 2003 03:35 PM
Well,
cuendillar is immune to balefile...that's a decent reason to
get your armor made from it.
Actually, I'd be vaguely tempted (if I was
running a game) to give a character some sort of mysterious
armor made with a layer of cuendillar - and then have them
survive a hit of balefire.
I get the impression that you don't make
weapons with cuendillar. Just seems...redundant.... Anyway, I
like drothgery's weave on making heartstone. I just might play
with the casting time a little.
From:
Ann Arbor, MI USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
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posted February 22, 2003 03:37 PM
I know
Deflect Arrows isn't in the Wheel of Time book, but if a GM
allowed the feat, would it seem fair if someone used that feat
with a weapon made of Cuendillar, to parry a Balefire beam
like Rand did in The Dragon Reborn?
[ February
22, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: JosephKell
]
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
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posted February 22, 2003 04:46 PM
quote:
I know
Deflect Arrows isn't in the Wheel of Time book, but if a GM
allowed the feat, would it seem fair if someone used that
feat with a weapon made of Cuendillar, to parry a Balefire
beam like Rand did in The Dragon Reborn?
The real question is how cinematic do you want to get?
There are people in the real world who can block, break, or
even catch arrows - I've seen it done. But blocking a beam
weapon, that's another matter; even the Jedi can only do it
because they possess a limited sort of precognition.
Personally, I'd be inclined to say no, but this is
*definitely* a GM call. And of course the reaction would be
something along the lines of
![[Dropjaw]](Wizards_Com Boards (Spoilers from CoT) New Rules for CoT (1)_fichiers/dropjaw.gif)
[ February 22, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message
edited by: Whitewinds ]
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