Author
|
Topic: Seanchan
Damane Test |
Dortamur
Member Member # 63897
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posted January 25, 2003 05:17 AM
Any ideas
as to what the test is the Seanchan use to identify
Marath'damane? It can't be just whacking on an a'dam on the
people to test - otherwise Sul'dam's would fail that test. So
they must have some other way of testing and identifying a
channeler with the spark.
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LuciusT
Member Member # 4474
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posted January 25, 2003 06:11 AM
I suspect
it is a matter of just slaping an adam on someone. The adam
only works on someone who can channel. When they are young,
the sul'dam can't channel. They have the potential to learn
but can't actually do it on their own like the marath'damane.
It is only after they have been trained as sul'dam that they
can actually channel and therefore become vulnerable to the
adam's effects (at which point putting an adam on one of them
is unthinkable).
From:
Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001
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Dortamur
Member Member # 63897
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posted January 25, 2003 07:12 AM
But in that
respect, how is a pre-mature Wilder any different? ie; Someone
who's born with the spark versus someone who can develop the
ability later. You can't force someone with the spark to
channel if they have no idea how to. Not without considerable
training. Hence, to me, it sounds like there is some other
test to say who is a Channeler and who is not.
Also, if
they did use an a'dam, then I'm sure there'd have to be some
instances of a Sul'dam trying to move with it on and suffering
nausea, proving they're a marath'damane...
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted January 25, 2003 08:19 AM
Theres the
thing, the term wilder is used to describe somebody who is
born with the ability to channel and will do so whether they
want to learn how to or not -and this is how the "block" is
learned, a way to help control the ability to channel without
training....which is why 4 out of 5 wilders die before
learning some measure of control (the block). While a Initiate
is somebody who, with training may learn how to channel...but
it has to be trained in them.
When an a'dam is placed
upon a woman, if she has the inborn ability then it will
activate and she is damane. A woman with the ability to learn,
i.e. -Initiate may become Sul'dam as they have the necessary
awareness of the Damane through the a'dam. Most who put on the
a'dam cannot sense the Damane through it. But, once that
Initiate is trained to touch the source -or once she has
trained with a Damane long enough, they can then be harnessed
to the a'dam.
Hope that helps explain
it.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
From:
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wierdbob
Member Member # 86937
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posted January 25, 2003 09:23 AM
We have
seen how Aes Sedai test women who have the spark inborn
(wilders) when Moiraine first meets Nynave and Egwene she
knows that Nynave could channel but didn't realise it and that
Egwene was very close to bieng able to. What we haven't seen
is how Aes Sedai check to see if a woman can learn.
I
would imagine that the Seanchan test is the same except they
don't realise that the Suldam test will show women that can
learn.
Also there is never any mention that the Adam
only works on women who have channeled in the novels. the only
mention about the tests is tat all Seanchan women over a
certain age are tested once a year.
[ January
25, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: wierdbob
]
-------------------- Wierdbob Sensei of
the Strange
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
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posted January 25, 2003 09:53 AM
They test
for marath damane the same way that the AS identify others who
can channel. They walk a damane around and if she can sense
the ability in a woman, the woman has failed the test and must
be leashed. If they placed an adam on any suldam, the suldam
would be held. To test for suldam, they do it mush the same
way as Mistress Satelle Anan in the cellar. They put the
bracelet on and see if they can feel the damane on the other
end. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Seanchan Damane Test (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fahkrin
Member Member # 89533
|
posted January 25, 2003 04:24 PM
Either way,
the scary thing is how many damene and suldam there are,
compared to the Westland channelers. Also, when you look at
how many people are showing up for the Asha'man and Aes Sedai
when they start looking for recruits.....WOW! It seems like 1%
of the population (no numbers, only a rough feel here) can
either channel or learn to channel.
At that level,
almost everyone would know someone that could channel.
Wonder if there is some sort of "damene underground?"
In an empire the size of Seanchan it would still be impossible
to test every single woman for either damene or sul'dam. Heck
the US is pretty well organized and vaccinations miss a
percentage of the population...
From: SF
Bay Area | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP:
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JosephKell
Member Member # 99447
|
posted January 25, 2003 04:28 PM
I wouldn't
be surprised if many of the damane went to go see if they were
sul'dam but were first checked to see if they were
damane...
Imagine "Mommy, I want to be a Sul'dam when I
grow up!" Next week "I want my mommy!" because the leash is
on...
-------------------- Instant Message me @
JonERPG on the AIMer
Visit AielManSpear
-If you cast Meteor
Swarm to avoid wasting your REALLY good spells... -If your
character sheet is longer than the Player's Handbook... -If
you have a magic item that can destroy the world...with four
charges left... -If the God of Destiny asks you what will
have next... ...you might be a Munchkin.
From:
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Dortamur
Member Member # 63897
|
posted January 25, 2003 06:19 PM
I'm still
not convinced the test involves an a'dam. There would be too
many opportunities for the ugly secret about Sul'dam to come
out.
Also, on the sensing of the ability, I get the
impression that is not sensing someone who has the spark, but
sensing someone who has channeled.
Nynaeve had the
spark, and had already channeled - Moiraine could sense she
had the power.
Egwene had the spark, but hadn't really
channeled. Moiraine couldn't sense the power (with any
confidence). She had suspicions, so maybe she felt something,
but not enough to say with any confidence that "Hey, you're
marath'damane".
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted January 25, 2003 08:41 PM
In tEotW,
Moirane told Egwene that women who can channel can sense other
women who can channel and women who are born with the
spark, who are near their first touching and that it
was the reason that she first thought Egwene was the Wisdom
instead of Nyneve. She sensed the spark about to manifest in
Egwene, and the ability already manifest in Nyneve. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Seanchan Damane Test (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dortamur
Member Member # 63897
|
posted January 25, 2003 09:02 PM
Hmmm.
Still, a "feeling" is not evidence, and I don't think the
Seanchan would make someone damane on a
feeling...
Thinking on the testing using an a'dam,
maybe it works like this:
To test for a damane, stick
the a'dam collar on. If the sul'dam doing the test feels the
damane, then they're a damane. ie; A suldam, that is, someone
with the ability to learn, but without the spark, shows NO
response to the a'dam collar.
However, a sul'dam
through her training and experience triggers that spark. So
any trained sul'dam now has the spark, which is why sul'dam
"develop an affinity" after a few years, such as being able to
tell when a damane channels, even without wearing the a'dam
bracelet. So, putting the collar on a NEW sul'dam would do
nothing...
This fits with re-reading stuff near the end
of book 2, which implies the test is a'dam based. The
clarification being that a trained sul'dam develops the spark,
even though they never develop the ability to channel
themselves.
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Melriken
Member Member # 48882
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posted January 25, 2003 09:26 PM
I cant look
it up right now, but There are Damane at the exits to any town
under Seanchan control testing everyone to see if they are a
Marath'Damane or not, iirc the test is just the Damane sitting
there watching people walk out (thus the 'feeling', which by
the way is more like the way you can 'feel' which way is down,
not how you 'feel' that someone isnt trust
worthy).
While I belive that the Sul'dam are tested by
simply placing the wrist band on a girl and seeing if she can
feel the Damane on the other end.
as already mentioned
the Damane test will only show someone who can actually
channel, or who has the spark and is VERY close to actually
channeling. now in an empire where no one is trained to
channel, then only those with the spark will actually channel,
and thus only those with the spark will 'fail' the Damane
Test.
Sul'dam are not trying to learn, and thus take
quite a long time to actually learn to channel, and dont
realize they can (the only channeling they do is to control
the circle created by the Adam direcly instead of telling the
Damane what to do) but by that point no one is testing them
for a Damane anymore (and the ability is so week in even the
strongest that the Damane dont notice it (and most likely
wouldnt be belived if they did)
I dont know about it
all though, you would have thought that someone would have
noticed by now that Sul'dam can channel. But then the first
Sul'dam (the Aes Sedai who made the first Adam (named in book
2)) was a woman who could channel, so it is entirely possible
that there are those who know, and it is actively covered up
by people in power. *shrug* who can understand the ways of the
Seanchan
-------------------- The prior post is in
no way intended to represent the thoughts and/or opinions of
the author. Read at your own risk.
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted January 26, 2003 09:55 AM
Alright,
Renna, Seta and what's her bucket (the 3rd suldam that helped
Mat get the Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar), each were tested
annually to see if they were marath damane, because sometimes
a suldam becomes marath damane. Each passed the test each time
by failing, however; each one was held by an adam. Every woman
with the potential to channel, whether they have manifested or
not , or learned or not, can be held by the adam. This is why
it would be so devastating to the Seanchan Empire to discover
the truth. There is no way that any woman - suldam or marath
damane would ever pass the test if the collar was placed on
their neck.
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
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jwanderer5
Member Member # 113100
|
posted January 28, 2003 06:42 AM
I'm not so
sure that there would be a damane underground. The Senchen see
someone who frees damane in the same light as a child molester
or rapist.
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Daniel Holm
Member Member # 85627
|
posted January 28, 2003 07:15 AM
It makes no
sense if the a'dam doesn't work on a sul'dam.
How the heck would they feel the damane, then? No,
it makes no sense. It must be a case of which the
damane feels a sparker or one close to touching
saidar the first time. Remember Taim's test for men
who can channel? Damer Flinn is one who can learn. I
suppose Aes Sedai would test for the talent the same
way. Maybe the Seanchan has a similar test... A
damane might be capable of seeing whether or not a
woman can be made
sul'dam.
-------------------- "Sa souvraya
niende misain ye - I am lost in my own
mind." "Dovie'andi se tovia sagain - It's time to
roll the dice." "Sene sovya caba'donde ain dovienya
- Luck is a horse to ride like any other." - Matrim
Cauthon, General of the Band of the Red Hand, Shen an
Calhar
Save the Core Paladin Foundation Member
0000037
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted January 28, 2003 07:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Holm: It makes
no sense if the a'dam doesn't work on a
sul'dam.
The Seanchan test works exactly as everyone above has
described it. Egwene tells us about it in tGH when she is
rescued. It's all right there. I suggest you reread the
relevant section.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
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posted April 13, 2003 05:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aleshandre: Alright,
Renna, Seta and what's her bucket (the 3rd suldam that
helped Mat get the Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar), each were
tested annually to see if they were marath damane, because
sometimes a suldam becomes marath damane. Each passed the
test each time by failing, however; each one was held by an
adam. Every woman with the potential to channel, whether
they have manifested or not , or learned or not, can be held
by the adam. This is why it would be so devastating to the
Seanchan Empire to discover the truth. There is no way that
any woman - suldam or marath damane would ever pass the test
if the collar was placed on their neck.
Do you think that any suldam will allow any suldam to
fail the test as it can mean the end of all suldam this is
than example of who doing the testing matter.
I think
that the A'Dam is make so to allow the Suldam pass the test
unless she past than certain point where she is now than
damane. Also it might have than channeler who have the spark
to pass the test and the test for Suldam so the channeler can
be than Suldam.
From: El
Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP:
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Whitewinds
Member Member # 124732
|
posted April 13, 2003 10:38 PM
I've
noticed a lot of careless thinking in this thread, so let's
make a few things explicit:
1) Some women are born with
the ability to channel. 2) Some women can acquire the
ability to channel with suitable training. 3) Most women
(97 - 98 percent) are completey unable to channel.
From
these known facts, we can derive four cases:
If an an
a'dam's collar is placed on the neck of a woman who was born
with the ability, or has acquired it through training, the
sul'dam will feel that ability. Such a woman is immediately
made damane.
If the collar is placed on the neck of a
woman who was *not* born with the ability, and has *not*
acquired it through training, them the sul'dam will sense
nothing - there's nothing there to sense.
A woman who
can acquire the ability but has received no training, or was
born with it but has not yet manifested it, can put on the
bracelet and control the damane. This makes her a
sul'dam.
A woman who was not born with it, and cannot
acquire it, can put on the bracelet, and the damane will fall
to the ground in screaming agony. She cannot become a
sul'dam.
From these four cases, we can reason that the
test proceeds this way: Each girl is tested by having the
a'dam placed on her neck - by force, if necessary. Those who
do not have an active ability to channel may, at their option,
put on the bracelet, and if the damane doesn't fall to ground
in screaming agony, she's a sul'dam. Though she's still tested
until she's past the age of manifestation, as she could have
been born with the ability, but not manifested it. This system
ensures that there will be no false nagatives - no woman who
has the ability and is tested will fail to show up.
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
|
posted April 14, 2003 02:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds: I've
noticed a lot of careless thinking in this thread, so let's
make a few things explicit:
1) Some women are born
with the ability to channel. 2) Some women can acquire
the ability to channel with suitable training. 3) Most
women (97 - 98 percent) are completey unable to
channel.
From these known facts, we can derive four
cases:
If an an a'dam's collar is placed on the neck
of a woman who was born with the ability, or has acquired it
through training, the sul'dam will feel that ability. Such a
woman is immediately made damane.
If the collar is
placed on the neck of a woman who was *not* born with the
ability, and has *not* acquired it through training, them
the sul'dam will sense nothing - there's nothing there to
sense.
A woman who can acquire the ability but has
received no training, or was born with it but has not yet
manifested it, can put on the bracelet and control the
damane. This makes her a sul'dam.
A woman who was not
born with it, and cannot acquire it, can put on the
bracelet, and the damane will fall to the ground in
screaming agony. She cannot become a sul'dam.
From
these four cases, we can reason that the test proceeds this
way: Each girl is tested by having the a'dam placed on her
neck - by force, if necessary. Those who do not have an
active ability to channel may, at their option, put on the
bracelet, and if the damane doesn't fall to ground in
screaming agony, she's a sul'dam. Though she's still tested
until she's past the age of manifestation, as she could have
been born with the ability, but not manifested it. This
system ensures that there will be no false nagatives - no
woman who has the ability and is tested will fail to show
up.
The roleplaying book is petty vargo about what
than A'dam can do or not do. I also believe that tham GM
doesnot have to follow Robert Jordan books that closely
and blinded. I than reading his book now.
The comment
about who doing the test is very inportant from than legal
stand point local, national and international. USA is thinking
about form they own inspecting team to find WMD in Iraq, even
it they say we found some the rest of the world inclureing me
willnot believe then as it wasnot done by the UN Weapon
Inspection team. Since it was than America team Bush can
order then to plant WMD in Iraq to say he was right to invade
Iraq. That why many court want to know which lab and who done
the test and it they did it right. As I see it the sul'dam
have than nice thing going and they donot want to ruin it
by testing one of their own and make her than damane it they
can help it.
From: El
Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP:
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Moon-Hawk
Member Member # 107830
|
posted April 14, 2003 06:10 AM
I'm pretty
sure they don't test people by forcing the damane into
screaming agony hundreds of times a day. The collar goes on
all young women who have no known ability every year until
they're too old (approximately out of their teens, but I'm not
exactly sure) If they have the spark, or can channel, they're
marked damane and the leash stays on. After that, I think
everyone is tested the same as they're tested everywhere else,
by channeling a little something, a light or a flame, for a
long time and seeing if the tested can feel a resonance.
(described in detail in the big book of bad art) This test
would, of course, test positive for both sul'dam and damane,
but since all the damane in the village just got loaded onto a
cart, only the sul'dam are left. After that, neither the
sul'dam or the damane are tested again. After all, what's the
point? They already know what they
are.
-------------------- I've learned too many
systems. Sometimes I even forget which system is the REAL
world uses. Uh-oh.
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
|
posted April 14, 2003 06:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds: A woman
who was not born with it, and cannot acquire it, can put on
the bracelet, and the damane will fall to the ground in
screaming agony. She cannot become a
sul'dam.
Your description was right in all counts but here. If
someone, male or female, who cannot channel puts on the
bracelet of an a'dam, there is no (0, nada) difference to the
damane between that and the bracelet hanging on a peg on the
wall. The non-channeler in the bracelet, of course, feels
nothing.
This, of course, renders Moon-Hawk's point
rather moot. Of note, though, it is stated that the testing
(putting a collar around their neck) is done to sul'dam for
the first several years of their service, along with all other
girls of that age. You can't get out of being tested by hiding
on a particular day at a particular age. You'd have to hide
for years...
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
From:
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aleshandre
Member Member # 27286
|
posted April 14, 2003 06:49 AM
Facts 1)
Damane are female channelers 2) Female channelers can sense
the presence of any woman who can channel or are nearing the
ability to channel. 3) Women who can be taught to channel
cannot be sensed until they are taught in channeling. 4)
Suldam are women who can learn to channel, but have no
training (except for controlling the damane). 5) Some
Suldam "become" marath damane by learning to channel (despite
their best efforts not to). 6) Suldam and any other woman
who can learn to channel will be held by an adam if it is
placed on her neck.
These points make it clear. Testing
is done by walking a damane by the women and if the damane
senses something, the woman is collered. If a woman passes the
damane test (by failing), she can be tested (by putting the
bracelet on) for suldam. If anyone has a disputation, I would
like to see the text where it says otherwise. ![[Wink]](Wizards_Com Boards Seanchan Damane Test (1)_fichiers/wink.gif)
-------------------- Stupidity is not a
crime, so you're free to go. Normal people frighten me.
I've never heard of freinds or relatives of serial killers
saying, "He was crazy, I knew he was going to snap sooner or
later and start killing people". They always seem to say, "He
was such a nice normal young man", etc. Atleast with
crazy people, you know to watch your back! My web page, new
& improved: http://geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal.net/
From:
temple,tx,usa | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
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Sophiathegreen
Member Member # 136464
|
posted April 14, 2003 03:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by
aleshandre: Facts 1) Damane are female
channelers 2) Female channelers can sense the presence of
any woman who can channel or are nearing the ability to
channel. 3) Women who can be taught to channel cannot be
sensed until they are taught in channeling. 4) Suldam are
women who can learn to channel, but have no training (except
for controlling the damane). 5) Some Suldam "become"
marath damane by learning to channel (despite their best
efforts not to). 6) Suldam and any other woman who can
learn to channel will be held by an adam if it is placed on
her neck.
These points make it clear. Testing is done
by walking a damane by the women and if the damane senses
something, the woman is collered. If a woman passes the
damane test (by failing), she can be tested (by putting the
bracelet on) for suldam. If anyone has a disputation, I
would like to see the text where it says otherwise.
Are point 3 and 6 condicting each other in a way.
From: El
Pase Texas | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP:
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Fyatuk
Member Member # 133738
|
posted April 15, 2003 05:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by
Sophiathegreen:
quote:
Originally posted by
aleshandre: Facts 1) Damane are female
channelers 2) Female channelers can sense the presence
of any woman who can channel or are nearing the ability to
channel. 3) Women who can be taught to channel cannot
be sensed until they are taught in channeling. 4)
Suldam are women who can learn to channel, but have no
training (except for controlling the damane). 5) Some
Suldam "become" marath damane by learning to channel
(despite their best efforts not to). 6) Suldam and any
other woman who can learn to channel will be held by an
adam if it is placed on her neck.
These points make
it clear. Testing is done by walking a damane by the women
and if the damane senses something, the woman is collered.
If a woman passes the damane test (by failing), she can be
tested (by putting the bracelet on) for suldam. If anyone
has a disputation, I would like to see the text where it
says otherwise.
Are point 3 and 6 condicting each other in a
way.
How would point 3 and 6 contradict. In point 3 just
says learners can't be sensed until they are taught. Point 6
just says anyone with potential channeling ability can be held
by the a'dam.
The reasoning on this list is correct.
All the A'dam does is create a forced one-way Saidar link. If
the bracelet works for someone, the collar will too, so if
they tested by putting the collar on, there would be NO
suldam.
On another note, the a'dam is made to handle
saidar, which is why saidin causes pain and death. Also, with
a burned out woman there is apparently a feedback effect
causing some strange problems.
That's what I have to
say.
-------------------- Fyatuk
Loth Tai'Shin Weaver of Dreams
From:
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The Great Gray
Skwid Member Member
# 34606
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posted April 15, 2003 08:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fyatuk: That's what I
have to say.
It's a shame it's directly contradicted by what RJ
(through Egwene in the Great Hunt) had to say.
Everyone
in this thread needs to reread the relevant section, I
think.
-------------------- Evan "Skwid"
Langlinais The Humblest Mollusk on the Net http://www.thehumblest.net/ Ask me for
information about the Texas Darkfriends!
From:
The Big D | Registered: Jul 2001 |
IP: Logged
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