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Author Topic: Linking
LuciusT
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posted June 04, 2003 06:47 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
I am dissatisfied with the rules for Linking. I feel that they do not accurately reflect the books.

According to the Big Book of Bad Art, the strength of a Circle is determined by 4 factors: the number of channelers, the strength of those channelers, the use of angreal and the balance between male and female channelers.

The existing rules only deal with one of these factors, the number of channelers. I would like to incorporate the other factors into the rules without making Linking overpowered.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted June 04, 2003 10:50 AM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
Expanding on something I've tossed out here before...

For factoring in the strength & skill of the channelers involved, I'd suggest using level as a proxy, like so:

For everyone except the person directing the circle, divide their level by 5 and round up; they count as that many 'virtual people' for determining the power of a circle.

As far as the male/female balance, I wouldn't worry about it; I think it'd only be significant in a large (10+ channelers involved) circle, and those are going to be few and far between.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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posted June 04, 2003 11:37 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
I like that. How would you factor in angreal?
From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sharn_Penndroen
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posted June 04, 2003 12:09 PM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
I was thinking of a very similar method, drothgery, but you beat me to it.

You may want to be sure to state that these "virtual people" do not count toward the maximum number of people in a circle.

In other words, 13 level 20 female channelers could link together and have the same effect as a circle of 61 (13+48).

As you can see, one problem with this method is that the table would have to be extended out to include larger circles of high level channelers.

For example what if you had a circle of 72 men and women, each of level 16 or so, what bonus would you give?

I agree that something needed to be done, else why would Sammel suggest that Graendal link with him. To only gain a +1 to casting level. I don't think that would have been very tempting to Graendal.

Anyway, as far as the angreal goes, I would just add the Power Rating of the angreal to the bonus for casting level. It is unlikely that many people in the circle would possess an angreal, so I don't think this would be terribly abused. If so then maybe you could restrict the number of angreal that can be used in a linked circle.

Just some opinions of a Rookie, stuck in here with two Experts opinions (i.e. LuciusT and drothgery) [bow]

[ June 04, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Sharn_Penndroen ]

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A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

From: Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted June 04, 2003 01:30 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
You don't worry about what would happen if the 'virtual person count' got over 72 because if you can do that, it doesn't matter what your opposition has.

As for angreal, I'd count whoever's using the angreal as 2 levels higher per plus.

[ June 04, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: drothgery ]

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Steve Russell
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posted June 04, 2003 01:31 PM      Profile for Steve Russell   Email Steve Russell    Edit/Delete Post
I have been toying/playing with the idea of linking adding to the DC of a save. Currently I am using that you add the ability modifier of all the channeler to the save.

I reliaze this is quite powerfull but as i make women play women and men play men in my game there is not a lot of linking (only NPC's so far)

--------------------
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Please visit and review my Epic Level Homebrew Setting: A Brave New Worldat the Commonplace Book.

From: dayton ohio usa | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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posted June 04, 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
As for angreal, I'd count whoever's using the angreal as 2 levels higher per plus.

I thought of that, but IMO it doesn't work.

Let's take as an example of circle of 10, 12th level Aes Sedai, one with a + 7 sa'angreal (can you guess which Circle I'm using as a model?).

If I'm doing this right, that adds up to a circle of 33 "virtual" channelers. If I'm reading the right table, the Circle grants a +4 bonus... which is lower than the +7 bonus the Circle's leader would get by just using the sa'angreal. So there is no point in the existance of this Circle.

From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sharn_Penndroen
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posted June 04, 2003 02:40 PM      Profile for Sharn_Penndroen   Email Sharn_Penndroen    Edit/Delete Post
As far as the angreal, I repeat what LuciusT just said. I still think that the only fair way to do it is just to add the PR to the casting bonus given.

As far as worring what the number of "virtual persons" there are, I think that you DO need to worry about it not counting toward the maximum. Especially when concerned with the max number of women and men in a circle.

If the number of "virtual persons" counted toward the maximum, then high level Aes sedai could not form a circle of 13. What is the sense in that? If the number of "virtual persons" counted toward the maximum, then 1 high level man channeler would be sufficent to make a circle of 50+. You can see that not just in instances of being concerned with a bringing a circle past 72 with your "virtual persons" does this become an issue. It is apparent that the number of "virtual persons" should not be counted toward the maximum number of people that can be linked in the circle. To do otherwise would be contrary not only what is represented in the books but it would be contrary to common sense. Yes?

Anyway, I do see your point, that it may not be necessary to consider extending the bonuses past +8, but those that know me, know that I'm a little of a stickler for "completion." Call me crazy and obsessed, heck, my wife does it all the time.

[ June 04, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Sharn_Penndroen ]

--------------------
A man who will not die to save a woman is no man. - Shienaran Saying

The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home. - Shienaran Funeral Ceremony

From: Brookhaven, MS | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Freya
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posted June 04, 2003 02:48 PM      Profile for Freya      Edit/Delete Post
For any channelers in the circle, the +2 per plus sounds reasonable. For the leader though, I'd think any angreal they use would add after gaining strength from the circle (this is just what Sharn mentioned, I think). Otherwise, the circle would be useless as LuciusT demonstrated.

--------------------
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From: dallas,tx | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted June 04, 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by LuciusT:
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
As for angreal, I'd count whoever's using the angreal as 2 levels higher per plus.

I thought of that, but IMO it doesn't work.

Well, this was very off the cuff; I'm tossing out ideas from the office here (Pacific time zone and all that).

quote:
Originally posted by LuciusT:
Let's take as an example of circle of 10, 12th level Aes Sedai, one with a + 7 sa'angreal (can you guess which Circle I'm using as a model?).

The one that healed Mat, presumably.

quote:
Originally posted by LuciusT:
If I'm doing this right, that adds up to a circle of 33 "virtual" channelers. If I'm reading the right table, the Circle grants a +4 bonus... which is lower than the +7 bonus the Circle's leader would get by just using the sa'angreal. So there is no point in the existance of this Circle.

Maybe treat the strongest angreal/sa'angreal available as a special case and stack it with the link, and use the +2 levels thing for the others.

Just as an aside -- of course the virtual people would only affect the power level of a circle, not the gender balance required to build it.

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
drothgery
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posted June 04, 2003 07:34 PM      Profile for drothgery      Edit/Delete Post
And an off the cuff 'virtual person' extension of table 9-1...

73-108 +9
109-144 +10
145-216 +11
217-288 +12

Also, for circles greater of more than ten, add +1 if they're at least 40% men.

I'd still say, though, that if you can put together a circle of more than 72 virtual people, it's pretty much game over for the side that doesn't have it.

[ June 04, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: drothgery ]

--------------------
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm

From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Whitewinds
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posted June 04, 2003 10:25 PM      Profile for Whitewinds   Email Whitewinds    Edit/Delete Post
There's a big problem with the 'virtual people' idea and extending the table: Using that, a large circle with no angreal or sa'angreal has such a huge bonus as to completely overwhelm the bonus of what's supposed to be the strongest channeleing combination possible: One man and one woman together, wielding both sides of the Power through the Choedan Kal.
Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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Member # 4474


posted June 05, 2003 06:23 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Whitewinds:
There's a big problem with the 'virtual people' idea and extending the table: Using that, a large circle with no angreal or sa'angreal has such a huge bonus as to completely overwhelm the bonus of what's supposed to be the strongest channeleing combination possible: One man and one woman together, wielding both sides of the Power through the Choedan Kal.

Only if we accept the rulebooks definition of the Choedan Kal as granting +10 bonus. Personally, I don't.
From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
LuciusT
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Member # 4474


posted June 05, 2003 09:39 AM      Profile for LuciusT      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
quote:
Originally posted by LuciusT:
Let's take as an example of circle of 10, 12th level Aes Sedai, one with a + 7 sa'angreal (can you guess which Circle I'm using as a model?).

The one that healed Mat, presumably.

You're good.

quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
quote:
Originally posted by LuciusT:
If I'm doing this right, that adds up to a circle of 33 "virtual" channelers. If I'm reading the right table, the Circle grants a +4 bonus... which is lower than the +7 bonus the Circle's leader would get by just using the sa'angreal. So there is no point in the existance of this Circle.

Maybe treat the strongest angreal/sa'angreal available as a special case and stack it with the link, and use the +2 levels thing for the others.

That could work. That really could work. [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by drothgery:
Just as an aside -- of course the virtual people would only affect the power level of a circle, not the gender balance required to build it.

Of course.

[ June 05, 2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: LuciusT ]

From: Lafayette IN | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


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