Author
|
Topic: Wheel of Time
homebrew |
odin181
Member Member # 103956
|
posted September 19, 2002 12:35 PM
Dose this
sound weird. I like wheel of time alot, I would just rather
not stick w/ the exact setting of the game. So I just made up
a new setting tweaked a few rules and was done. I've sort of
just replaced the D&D players hand book with the WoT book.
I just made up new lost ability feats to better suit my
setting, and added Elves and Dwarves also to reflect the
setting. It's sort of Wheel of Time & Dragons
What do you think. IMHO I think WoT makes a
much better set of rules then core D&D dose. any input
?
[ September 19, 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited
by: odin181 ]
-------------------- prick
your finger it is done, the moon has now eclipsed the
sun, the angel has spread it's wings, the time has come
for better things,
From:
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted September 19, 2002 12:50 PM
Don't get
me wrong, I love the WoT. But I think you may have problems
(which have been beaten to death on many threads on this
board) with channelers being so overpowered. I am one of those
who advocate powerful channelers (no balance), the closer to
the novels the better. But..... the one reason I think
that works in WoT is the high social and roleplaying counters
the channelers have to face. I mean men get screwed, women
better be Aiel (and hide in the Waste), Athen Mi'er (and hide
on the ship), the Kin (and hide in a hole in the ground) or
Aes Sedai and have your life picked out for you, while
swearing your gonna stay a good little girl. Female wilders
just better stay low or get snatched up/beat down by the Aes
Sedai.
With a game world that doesn't have those
counters I think that the channelers would be too
powerful.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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odin181
Member Member # 103956
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posted September 19, 2002 01:14 PM
I don't
think the channalers would over power things that much. I mean
no more than in D&D how most classes can cast spells of
one type or another. And if it becomes a big deal I can always
just change how maddness works a bit. Don't forget this is not
in the WoT setting so I'll be free to ajust things as
nessisary.
-------------------- prick your finger it
is done, the moon has now eclipsed the sun, the angel
has spread it's wings, the time has come for better
things,
From:
kentucky | Registered: Aug 2002 |
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted September 19, 2002 01:23 PM
I think
that you would need some kind of check for the channelers. I
have done some theoretical role-playing to see just how
powerful a channeler can be. I put a 6th level wilder with
some good weaves against 15 3rd - 5th level brigands (warriors
and Armsmen). Some had lances on horseback, some had horsebows
and they ambushed him out in the forest (so no long range). He
slaughtered them to the last in about 10 to 15 rounds. AoA and
Harden Air would stop them while he tossed off fireballs and
riven earth. A Harden air weave placed in front of a bunch of
charging horsemen is crippling. He didn't even have to
overchannel all that much and I wasn't even allowing
homebrewed feats or weaves, just stuff out of the
book.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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The Green Man
Member Member # 58839
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posted September 19, 2002 02:59 PM
A couple of
comments -
Channelers definitely risk being over
powerful. A channeler does NOT have roughly the same power as
a D&D caster of equivalent level. Harden air can be used
to basically kill any non-channeler regardless of level.
That's just one example... channelers are very, very powerful
without some balancing mechanism (as the social constraints in
the novels are).
With that said - Xythlord, I think
that your brigands must not have been too smart. They should
have been able to overbear the channeler fairly easily. Once
immobilized, it shouldn't have been terribly difficult to kill
him.
-The Green Man
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted September 19, 2002 03:33 PM
Actually
the Brigands had a pretty good setup, along a road, L shaped
ambush with a bunch of lancers to charge in and finish coming
from around the bend and down the road.
But I tried to
play that scenerio for real. The brigands had a few come and
stop the "ordinary" traveler without even a sword. He dove for
cover and let loose an enourmous (overchanneled) Riven earth,
which also killed or knocked down a lot of them (that 50 ft.
radius). He was then hit by an arrow, even with 50% cover, He
made his Concentration check (for the damage) and
overchanneled a Fireball back at the archers. Again we have a
50 ft. radius crisping a bunch more. The next round two more
charge him so he hardens air in to stop everthing coming from
that entire direction and hides behind a tree to stay away
from the archers. The lancers come around the bend at full
charge, the channeler again cast Harden Air and holds the
other one. no one knows where the "walls" are cuz their
invisible so he just starts channeling fireballs after
that.
-------------------- Only two things are
infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure
about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
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drothgery
Member Member # 4490
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posted September 19, 2002 04:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by The Green Man: A
couple of comments -
Channelers definitely risk
being over powerful. A channeler does NOT have roughly the
same power as a D&D caster of equivalent level. Harden
air can be used to basically kill any non-channeler
regardless of level. That's just one example... channelers
are very, very powerful without some balancing mechanism (as
the social constraints in the novels
are).
While that's true, it's a serious oversimplification.
Chanellers always have more weaves available than wizards or
clerics have spells because of overchanneling and double stat
bonuses. Which means that for low-level characters, an
initiate/wizard duel would heavily favor the initiate. She's
simply got more avialable firepower.
But once you get
to mid levels (and this is even more true at high levels), the
wizard has access to spells that give him a big advantage and
which the the initiate can't counter -- and tens of thousands
of gp worth of magic equipment. In the short run, the wizard
wins because he's got better surprise ability and better
defensive spells; in the long run the wizard actually lasts
longer if he's prepared some scrolls and/or
wands.
Which is to say that yes, Elminster can take out
Rand, and wouldn't have too much trouble ![[Smile]](Wizards_Com Boards Wheel of Time homebrew (1)_fichiers/smile.gif)
-------------------- Dave
Rothgery Picking nits since
1976 drothgery@alum.wpi.edu http://drothgery.editthispage.com/
Optional d20 WoT Rules at http://home.san.rr.com/drothgery/wot_rpg.htm
From:
San Diego, CA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Grayswandir_Blade Member Member
# 92933
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posted September 19, 2002 04:53 PM
Nah, Rand
just Balefires and pop! ![[Cthulhu]](Wizards_Com Boards Wheel of Time homebrew (1)_fichiers/cthulhu_green.gif)
-------------------- "We laugh in the face
of danger, just before it hits us and knocks us out" -
Lysander. :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E:
:88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E:
:88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E:
:88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E:
:88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E:
:88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E: :88E:
:88E:
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odin181
Member Member # 103956
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posted September 19, 2002 06:07 PM
but
channelers would be the wizards in my setting just like in
wheel of time. so I don't have to worrie about balancing them
against d&d characters because i'm just using the classes
from WoT. As for a social reason for them to limit their power
I was thinking an anti-magic/one power religeous group might
work, but thats more then a bit over done so i'll probably
think of something else. Something I was considering was
having all channelers run the risk of maddness not just males.
because like I said it is a diffrant setting, so don't have to
follow the tainted mail half thing. But since I don't want all
spell casters, hurtaling to eminit doom I could very easaly
come up with a balancing factor that would make a Elminster
wanna-ne think twice before he/she started toasting people for
the fun of it.
-------------------- prick your
finger it is done, the moon has now eclipsed the
sun, the angel has spread it's wings, the time has come
for better things,
From:
kentucky | Registered: Aug 2002 |
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Stiletto
Member Member # 86640
|
posted September 19, 2002 06:48 PM
i'm sorry,
but i was reading, and a 50ft fireball blows my mind. if
anyone's read part of the dragonlance books, they might know
when zifnab(or is it fizban), supposedly an awesome magik man,
did one about 20ft, and that blew my mind! i'm always trying
to think of Ryu with a 20ft fireball... ![[Red Mana]](Wizards_Com Boards Wheel of Time homebrew (1)_fichiers/red_mana.gif)
-------------------- "When shoes run
around by themselves..." "...There's magic
afoot?" -Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man
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odin181
Member Member # 103956
|
posted September 25, 2002 06:04 AM
Here's a
more solid description of what I'm doing. The game takes place
in the same world, I'm using the map and backgrounds from the
WoT book. So in a lot of ways it's still WoT with the same
story line and everything.
What I've
Changed
I've altered the story of the world a bit to
better suit my idea. Both men and women can chanel with out
going mad, and instead of Ogear I have a Elves and Dwarves,
Similare but not identical to the ones in
D&D.
-------------------- prick your finger it
is done, the moon has now eclipsed the sun, the angel
has spread it's wings, the time has come for better
things,
From:
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Moridin00
Member Member # 54124
|
posted September 26, 2002 12:31 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Xythlord: But I tried
to play that scenerio for real. He let loose an enourmous
(overchanneled) Riven earth, which also killed or knocked
down a lot of them (that 50 ft. radius). He was then hit by
an arrow, even with 50% cover, He made his Concentration
check (for the damage) and overchanneled a Fireball back at
the archers. The next round two more charge him so he
hardens air in to stop everthing coming from that entire
direction and hides behind a tree to stay away from the
archers. The lancers come around the bend at full charge,
the channeler again cast Harden Air and holds the other one.
no one knows where the "walls" are cuz their invisible so he
just starts channeling fireballs after that.
Don't you think that they would have all just run off
after the first Riven Earth?
Stiletto, I saw this programme on tv the
other night about natural disasters... seeing the devastation
earthquakes can cause gave me some perpective on the
earthquake weave, especially as it can affect miles of ground!
From:
Cape Town, SA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Xythlord
Member Member # 70903
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posted September 26, 2002 07:13 AM
Guilty,
they would have run like the devil was after them (at least I
would have in their place). But I wanted to see how it would
have turned out. Right now I have in my home game, the players
are in PotD and although they have deviated from the module
somewhat, I hope to see what my male channeler can do at
Dumai's Well soon.
-------------------- Only two
things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former. Albert Einstein (1879 -
1955)
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wafwot
Member Member # 98011
|
posted October 05, 2002 02:21 PM
Heh. I just
had this thought.
I was trying to picture a channeller
causing these massive earthquakes. Then it popped into my mind
that an earthquake in California can cause tsunami's over in
China.
Wouldn't that suck to be across the ocean with
all these channellers causing
earthquakes?
Ha.
Sorry. Otherwise, I agree.
Channellers in the WoT are much, much much more powerful than
any kind of D&D spellcaster. The idea alone that they can
/overchannel/ makes them more powerful, besides the fact that,
as was mentioned, something as "simple" as Harden Air can kill
a very powerful individual.
Dungeons and Dragons is a
lit candle. Wheel of Time is a turbine engine. It definitely
doesn't stand a chance.
Peace,
Anthony
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Mao
Member Member # 3827
|
posted October 08, 2002 10:33 PM
<LONG!>
Hey guys.
I think you folks
are suffering from a little confusion here.
Yes,
balefire is deadly. But you need to hit with a ranged touch,
AND the opponent needs to fail at a reflex save. If they
succeed they take nothing.
Yes, Riven earth is great,
but there's a save for half damage.
Yes, harden air is
great, but there is a reflex save to avoid it
completely.
Look at wizards- hold monster is far
superior to harden air (will saves rate to be much harder for
your usual joe than reflex), wall of force is far superior to
any wall type thing, otto's irresistable dance takes someone
out with a touch attack, disintegrate takes someone out (dead)
or deals 6d6 damage with a ranged touch (if they succeed at a
fort save). Meteor swarm does 24d6 damage no save, plus area
damage. Compare that to balefire, huh? I'll take meteor swarm
every single time.
And let us just skip over clerics
and druids, for obvious, obvious reasons. Healing,
shapeshifting combined with spells far superior to any
channeling effects.
Yes because of the lack of magic
items, channellers are somewhat more powerful than average
classes in WoT, but they are far less powerful than they were
comparitively in the books. It takes a full round action or so
to embrace the source. During that round, an armsman of
equivalent level to a channeller can obliterate the poor
channeller. Like a chump.
Try running a 15th level
armsman versus a 15th level initiate at close range (start
them around 60 feet away). Give the Armsman light armor. He
charges the first round while the channeller embraces the
source, power attacking for 10 or so, and does 1d8+15-20
depending on weapon spec/power wrought blades/etc. If he wins
initiative, he takes a full attack action next round and hits
all 3 of his attacks because of the channeller's pathetic
defense bonus. Doing 1d8+10 (+2 weapon spec, +3 power wrought
blade, +4-5 for strength, notwithstanding the chance for him
to be using a greatsword - 2d6+12 or so). He doesn't power
attack or expertise, because he's feeling charitable. H does
3d8+30, plus his original 1d8+20, for 4d8+50 damage - or
average of 70 points, give or take.
Let us pretend the
initiate has a 16 con - charitable. He's got 45+15d4 hp, 90
giving a generous average. He's now got 20 hp left.
He
multiweaves three blasts of balefire, since he has a +2
angreal, and tries to blast the Armsman. He's got a +7 + his
dex of 14, or +9 to hit with ranged attacks, and the Armsman
has a defense of around 19 or 20 (given mediocre dex). He hits
on possibly two blasts, if he gets lucky.
The armsman
has a reflex save of around +10 or so, more if he's taken
lightning reflexes (and he has a crapload of feats - around
10). The DC rates to be around 23. So there's roughly a 40%
chance he'll survive and kill the wilder next
round.
This is one on one. Roughly a 40% chance that
the armsman kills him in two rounds.
No way that'd
happen in the books
-Mao
From:
Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Mao
Member Member # 3827
|
posted October 08, 2002 10:37 PM
Update on
the stats there - 40% twice, so 40% of 40%...closer to 18% or
so. still.
18% chance of an Armsman soloing an initiate
of equivalent level (again pretending the initiate HAS
balefire and multiweave x2, and that the armsman doesn't hit a
critical).
Figure the armsman has a 17-20 threat range
for improved crit, etc.
From:
Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Grey Danvar
Member Member # 11628
|
posted October 08, 2002 11:54 PM
That's all
well and good, Mao, but the Initiate need simply use Arms of
Air (Sustained Force)to move the Armsman or hold him. There is
no saving throw or attack roll needed for Sustained Force.
Multiweave Balefire, and viola. Or, alternatively, move the
Armsman vertically at the rate of 20ft / round and drop him
![[Smile]](Wizards_Com Boards Wheel of Time homebrew (1)_fichiers/smile.gif)
-------------------- "Why Me?"
:)
From:
Grand Junction, CO, US | Registered: Apr 2001
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Moridin00
Member Member # 54124
|
posted October 09, 2002 01:22 AM
I don't
have the book on me, but I have this suspicion that balefire
doesn't need a ranged touch attack. Will check
later.
Mao, your comment of 'Try running a 15th level
armsman versus a 15th level initiate at close range' betrays
your flawed argument here. You are giving the armsman a range
advantage. Its obvious the channeler is disadvantaged without
his primary benefit (i.e. channeling). To be fair, start them
out of visual range of each other or let the channeler
embrace. If you don't do this, you're not comparing the power
of two classes, you're comparing the melee capabilities of
them, which is a pointless comparison to make. In a fair duel,
both characters should have full access to their speciality
powers. They are diverse characters with different strengths.
If you want to compare melee prowess, you should also then
check magic prowess between the two as well!
When my
dm and I tested characters after we'd created them, he always
used to cream my spellcasting characters with his fighters. He
always managed to get swarms of daggers per round flying at my
alarmed wizard, driven by colossal strength ratings. Man that
used to p1ss me off.
From:
Cape Town, SA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Grey Danvar
Member Member # 11628
|
posted October 09, 2002 01:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Moridin00: I don't
have the book on me, but I have this suspicion that balefire
doesn't need a ranged touch attack. Will check
later.
Yep, it does require a ranged touch
attack, since it's a "Beam" effect.
quote:
Mao, your comment of 'Try running a 15th
level armsman versus a 15th level initiate at close range'
betrays your flawed argument here. You are giving the
armsman a range advantage.
Nah, with the Arms of Air weave, it won't
matter too much on the range. ![[Smile]](Wizards_Com Boards Wheel of Time homebrew (1)_fichiers/smile.gif)
-------------------- "Why Me?"
:)
From:
Grand Junction, CO, US | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jkol the
Butcher Member Member
# 106364
|
posted October 09, 2002 05:31 AM
Why does
balefire have both a ranged touch and a reflex save? This
seems dumb to me: I mean if you succed at a ranged touch
attack then haven't you already hit them - you don't get a
reflex save to avoid an arrow - balefire must be travelling at
least as fast as an arrow shouldn't
it.
-------------------- Self Proclaimed Member #
001 of the Kill Paladins and Join the Blackguards Foundation
(KPJBF)
We are the Sorg. You and your sig will be
assimilated. Resistance is futile. (Please put this in your
sig to show that it has been asimilated.)
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Mao
Member Member # 3827
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posted October 09, 2002 04:11 PM
Cos ranged
touch = obliteration is a little rough.
As to Arms of
Air, I will bet bottom dollar if there is errata, it'll claim
it has a reflex save if you're trying to either a) take an
object from a creature or b) move a creature.
This
spell is identical to telekinesis in effect, otherwise.
In my game, you can damned well bet there'll be a
saving throw. They can't see the weave, but they feel it
around them and dodge out of the way. Pow.
You can
generally bet that if one single spell overpowers a class, it
is an error or will be toned down - if it's everything, maybe
not so much. Harden air for example has a reflex save
-Mao
From:
Phoenix, Az, USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Harkael
Member Member # 104966
|
posted October 10, 2002 12:24 PM
Things have
gotten just a wee bit off topic, however i would say that even
though channelers arent as powerful as the book (Rand frying
dozens of veteran aiel as an afterthought) they are still too
powerful without the usual limitations. Oh, and by the
way, there's a difference between Rand vs Elminster,and Rand
with Calandor vs Elminster. (unfortunately Elminster would
probably have the upper hand
anyway)
-------------------- "What do you mean I
missed? but i rolled....an......18..."
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Grey Danvar
Member Member # 11628
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posted October 10, 2002 03:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mao:
As to Arms
of Air, I will bet bottom dollar if there is errata, it'll
claim it has a reflex save if you're trying to either a)
take an object from a creature or b) move a
creature.
In my game, you can damned well bet
there'll be a saving throw. They can't see the weave, but
they feel it around them and dodge out of the way. Pow.
There is currently no errata, and it's doubtful there
will ever be any. That given, what you suggest is a house
rule that you use in your game -- therefore, it has
no place in a discussion that compares WoT core classes. It's
not that I disagree with your assesment of AoA, but for
discussions such as these, one needs to stick to the
rules.
Aside from AoA there's dozens of other methods a
15th level Initiate could use to easily overcome a 15th level
Arsman. A few examples:
1) The Initiate can fly
to escape melee range, Create Fire (Channeled at level 6), and
then drop a Master Ward over the Armsman, and area of effect
of the Create Fire.
2) Fly, Immolate until well
done. Immolate, being a will save, is particularly deadly to
the hapless Armsman. Alternatievly, Ward against People
(around the channeler) and Immolate.
3) Master
Ward. Just Master Ward. It says in the description that the
one trapped will eventually run out of air. Weave, and hold
the weave, eventually the Armsman suffocates.
3)
Fly (or Ward Against People) and Compulsion. Another will save
that will eventually fail, and the ward works even if the
target is hostile.
I think it's safe to assume that
unless the Armsman has the most extreme of circumstances in
her favor, this is a battle she will lose 100% of the time.
-Grey
-------------------- "Why
Me?" :)
From:
Grand Junction, CO, US | Registered: Apr 2001
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Milosh
Member Member # 108275
|
posted October 10, 2002 03:41 PM
Elminster
is highly over rated, i mean lvl 20 wiz lvl 5 fighter? gets
stuck in hell cant use magic but still gets out, the only
thing i can think of why hes so strong is his never ending
smoking pipe of elminsters homegrown!
I would think
that a forsaken has got the levels to match him too, so maybe
a forsaken would stop elminster!
Sorry Must have had some homegrown of my own
From:
CDA | Registered: Oct 2002 | IP: Logged
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Wowbangers the
Infinitely Prolonged Member Member
# 101183
|
posted October 10, 2002 03:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Harkael: Oh, and by the way, there's
a difference between Rand vs Elminster,and Rand with
Calandor vs Elminster. (unfortunately Elminster would
probably have the upper hand anyway)
Ha! Forget them both. Go Raistlin!
Muahahahaha!
-------------------- I have gone out to
look for myself. If I should happen to return before I get
back, please tell myself to wait.
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